This deck is the oldest of the various EDH decks that I have constructed that I still own and pilot, and I am ever in the process of seeking to tweak it and find the right balance of draw, removal, threats, answers, and utility. One of the biggest areas of weakness in the deck as it currently stands is probably my mana base, which is missing Revised duals, shock lands, and off-color fetches. Hopefully I'll be able to pick up some shocks later this fall, though, after they settle down following the RtR release. Anywho, I'm always looking for ways to improve this deck. It's definitely my current pet project, and I'd love to hear your comments, critiques, and suggestions if you think that something looks particularly weak or out of place. Or, if you just have questions about a particular card selection, just feel free to ask!
"For me metaphysics means something more like realism. That there is a reality that escapes any of its manifestations. You can never be quite sure what it is, but you can offer some description of what the structures of reality are." Graham Harman, The Prince and the Wolf
Bogardan Hellkite gives you a lot of use for about $2. I would want to squeeze an Oblivion Ring into the deck somewhere.
Also, the enchantment Reconnaissance combos well with Kaalia.
Hey, thanks for stopping in and for your suggestions :)!
I've gone back and forth on Bogardan Hellkite for a long time. He was originally in the list, then I took him out... then I put him back in... then took him back out. Ultimately, while he's a great creature, 8 mana for a 5/5 is a pretty steep cost if I can't cheat him in with Kaalia, and while the 5 extra damage is great, I don't really have a lot of ways to abuse him via bounce, blink, or recursion in this deck, so I ended up feeling like he didn't quite merit a slot. He may find his way back in at some point, depending on how things play out.
Oblivion Ring I actually hadn't considered here, somehow. It may well be a good inclusion, if I can find a slot, although I don't really like soft removal in EDH. I'd probably run Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares over O-Ring, and I have opted not even to include them here, at this point.
Reconnaissance is a card that I saw pop up in some Kaalia threads as I did my research for this deck, and it might very well be a worthy include. However, my plan here isn't to rely super-heavily on Kaalia to cheat things out early and often like a lot of decks do, so she won't be sticking her neck out there as often and risking getting blown up. Instead, I generally plan to drop her mid to late-game to cheat out a couple fatties to finish people off, after their life totals have already been whittled down.
Welp, the majority of the cards for this deck have shown up in the mail over the past several days, and I'm hoping the rest will show up today!
For anyone who cares about these types of things, I chose to use Plains #251 from Innistrad, Swamp #241 from Shards of Alara, and (perhaps my favorite) Mountain #78 from Duel Decks: Knights vs. Dragons. I'm pretty sure I looked through every Plains, Swamp, and Mountain art ever printed before settling on these, as I felt like they convey the sense of a desolate, ravaged, utterly destroyed landscape better than any others I came across. I feel like this really aids in creating the right ambience for a Kaalia of the Vast "punisher" deck. I'm pretty pleased!
Well, its finals week, so I've only managed to get in one game with this deck since all the cards arrived, as most of my friends are more concerned with studying and passing classes than they are with tweaking their EDH decks. Some people's priorities :rolleyes:.
Anywho, I was able to observe a few things, namely that my budget mana base works out pretty well, particularly with the artifact fixing and ramp, and that some of the cards don't have the impact I would like them to. Kederekt Parasite, for example, fits the theme and overall purpose of the deck perfectly. However, given that I only have a handful of red permanents to meet the qualification for his ability (and most of those are late-game bombs that aren't going to get played early on), his usefulness diminishes greatly. Stuff like that is the kind of things I hope to take note of in testing, so that I can start to make improvements on the basis of how the deck actually functions in real time.
On another note, there's a handful of stuff I'd really like to include here from AVR, most notably the Sanguine Bond combo with Exquisite Blood and the uber-damage combo of Heartless Hidetsugu and Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. The problem is that I would have to find room in the budget for upwards of $10 of cards to make this happen. Sanguine Bond's price isn't going to drop anytime soon, but perhaps Gisela will come down a bit as AVR packs get opened a bit more.
You have no cards that tuck enemy Commanders. Oblation is cheap.
Thanks for stopping in :).
I was actually just considering writing up a quick description of my card choices for each major type (creatures, artifacts, lands, etc.). I originally had the M10-M12 taplands and the Scars fastlands (well, I guess there's technically only one: Blackcleave Cliffs) in my list, but I had a hard time paring it down to ~$100 with them in there, and I ended up concluding that the money was probably better off spent elsewhere (maybe I shouldn't have bought a foil Akroma, Angel of Wrath, though :p). If they aren't reprinted in M13, they should drop pretty substantially after rotation, I'd imagine, as they're inferior to most everything, and I could possibly find room in the budget for them, then. That said, I'm anxious to get a couple dozen games with this deck under my belt, so I can see just how well/poorly the mana base functions as it is, and figure out what adjustments I need to make going forward.
You make a good point about tuck effects. I generally don't run Condemn, even in budget decks, because I don't like how situational it is. When and where I can, I like to avoid Oblation and other cards that allow my opponents to draw cards, as well. I hate it when I lose to the card that my opponent wouldn't have drawn if I didn't allow them to :mad:. That said, given the extremely limited amount of removal I'm currently running, and it's low monetary cost, I should probably seriously consider finding room for one here. It's another thing I want to feel out in playtesting. If I find myself consistently wanting more removal, I'll surely be adding it. If not, so much the better, I suppose.
I was actually just considering writing up a quick description of my card choices for each major type (creatures, artifacts, lands, etc.). I originally had the M10-M12 taplands and the Scars fastlands (well, I guess there's technically only one: Blackcleave Cliffs) in my list, but I had a hard time paring it down to ~$100 with them in there, and I ended up concluding that the money was probably better off spent elsewhere (maybe I shouldn't have bought a foil Akroma, Angel of Wrath, though :p). If they aren't reprinted in M13, they should drop pretty substantially after rotation, I'd imagine, as they're inferior to most everything, and I could possibly find room in the budget for them, then. That said, I'm anxious to get a couple dozen games with this deck under my belt, so I can see just how well/poorly the mana base functions as it is, and figure out what adjustments I need to make going forward.
You make a good point about tuck effects. I generally don't run Condemn, even in budget decks, because I don't like how situational it is. When and where I can, I like to avoid Oblation and other cards that allow my opponents to draw cards, as well. I hate it when I lose to the card that my opponent wouldn't have drawn if I didn't allow them to :mad:. That said, given the extremely limited amount of removal I'm currently running, and it's low monetary cost, I should probably seriously consider finding room for one here. It's another thing I want to feel out in playtesting. If I find myself consistently wanting more removal, I'll surely be adding it. If not, so much the better, I suppose.
Yes, spending on foil cards raises the cost! lol
Dragonskull Summit is about $3 tops, so you might want to just get that, so have a bit more color fixing. Then, as you said, see where the other Scars dual lands after Standard rotation. (and likewise, when Innistrad dual lands are rotated out)
Oblation can be used on one of your cards to get you to draw two cards. So, if one of your permanents is no longer useful in the game, tuck it and get something else. Oblation to tuck an pesky enemy general (or indestructible permanent) is sometimes worth giving them two cards. Even in budget decks, you need removal to deal with opponent's creatures and generals. You could also try to pick up Banishing Stroke as a tuck card. Yes, the casting cost sucks, but it's about 50 cents.
I don't run Condemn, even in my non-budget deck, because there are pesky generals and creatures that don't attack.
Well, I've managed to get in a couple games thus far today, and hopefully I'll get in a few more before the day's over. Unfortunately, both the games I've played up to this point been 1v1, which I feel is less than great for this deck than multiplayer, what with all the global life-loss/life-gain cards in the deck and all. Still, they were both really fun games, and I thoroughly enjoyed piloting this deck, although I don't feel super confident in my decisions at the helm, yet. Here's a brief recap:
I started out with a handful of basics, a Bloodgift Demon, and some enchantments. In retrospect, it probably would've been more advantageous for me to have some artifact ramp/fixing of some sort in my hand. In any case, I was on the play, and drew Kederekt Parasite, so I played a Swamp and the Parasite and passed the turn. Next turn, I drew War's Toll, swung with Parasite, and dropped a Mountain. In my next couple of turns, I played Spellshock, War's Toll, Polluted Bonds, and Spiteful Visions, along with a Bloodgift Demon somewhere in there. My opponent didn't do much, due to War's Toll, but I was afraid to run Kaalia out into all the mana he was leaving up every turn and get her countered. My enchantments slowly whittled down both of our life totals, and I beat face with Bloodgift Demon a few times and then dropped an Earthquake to bring us both down to 7-ish. My opponent Quicksilver Amulet'ed a Runescarred Demon into play at my EoT, and proceeded to hit me down to 1. I drew myself to death on my turn to Spiteful Visions.
Conclusions:Spellshock is kind of a catch-22. It might well have dealt more damage to me than it did to my opponent over the course of the game. Speaking of things like that, I'm pretty sure I dealt more damage to myself than my opponent did overall... by a long shot. Not to mention the fact that I actually killed myself :lol:. I guess I just need to get used to the fact that there's going to be a lot of damaged being dished out when I play this deck, and be more careful to have sources of life gain in my hand/make them my tutor targets earlier on in the game. It also kind of sucked to be so non-interactive with my opponent's deck, particularly while he could (and did) counter anything and everything of mine that he felt like countering. I guess I'm just used to running a deck with in it myself.
I started out with more artifact ramp in hand, and ramped myself into an early Kaalia with Orzhov Signet. Well, perhaps I should say I would've ramped into an early Kaalia had she not been countered. Wasn't counting on an Arcane Denial. Who runs those? Seriously. Anwho, next turn I dropped a Boros Signet and Coalition Relic and though I was well on my way to being able to simply hardcast my threats, until whep? Oblivion Ring. That set me back to 4 mana and made life rather difficult. I managed to stick a Dread and a few turns later a Wound Reflection to make things interesting, but my opponent was beating my face in with a Rune-Scarred Demon once again. The unfortunate way things worked out was that every time R-SD hit my face, Dread blew him up, and given that my opponent was playing a reanimator deck, he was able to recur him over and over again, grabbing all the creeps he wanted from his deck. Ultimately, I lost to a hasty Pathrazer of Ulamog and that was that.
Conclusions: I feel like I would build this deck far differently if I intended to play 1v1 regularly. Global punishment and life-gain effects are pretty lackluster vs. one opponent as opposed to many. I think 1v1 necessitates a race with Kaalia, and I would want to be ramping hard into her, dropping her in with haste, and beating my opponent's face with some big fliers before they could really do much about it. I'd probably toss in some blowing up of the lands to seal the deal. That sounds fun, truth be told, but given that I expect to be playing multiplayer 90%+ percent of the time, I think it's not the way to go. It's difficult to go full-on aggro against a full table of people and expect to do well.
I would highly suggest Armageddon It is fantastic once you have kaalia out, everybod has to try and rebuild mana and you can just keep casting beasts w/ her. Also things like swiftfoot boots and whispersilk cloak are cheap and good additions to keep kaalia alive.
I would highly suggest Armageddon It is fantastic once you have kaalia out, everybod has to try and rebuild mana and you can just keep casting beasts w/ her. Also things like swiftfoot boots and whispersilk cloak are cheap and good additions to keep kaalia alive.
Heyo, and thanks for stopping in :)!
Regarding mass LD, I think it takes the deck down an entirely different path than I have chosen to follow here. Truth be told, it's probably a better path, that involves: (1) ramping hard into an early, preferably hasty Kaalia; (2) blowing up all the lands; (3) beating your opponents' helpless faces with the fatties you cheat in with Kaalia. I consider that the standard, and perhaps most optimal Kaalia build, certainly for 1v1 play if not for multiplayer EDH as well. If I were to go that way, I'd drop all the "punisher" effects from the deck, add more artifact ramp, and run the full suite of Armageddon-type effects available in :symw::symb::symr:. That said, I think it's a slightly more difficult strategy to pull off in multiplayer than it is in 1v1. It turns the table into a 3v1 every time, guaranteed. Moreover, and really the bottom line, the fact is my playgroup abhors mass LD, so I chose to go a route that forgoes it :sad:.
Regarding Whispersilk Cloak, Swiftfoot Boots and the like, I think they're more a part of the mass LD-type Kaalia build, in which you rely HEAVILY on Kaalia to cheat stuff out. You're pretty boned if you're playing that strategy and Kaalia gets destroyed or exiled a bunch of times, or worse gets tucked. With this deck, I rely far, far less on Kaalia. Sometimes, I won't even/don't even need to bring her in. I mostly use her to cheat in a few fatties to clean things up once everyone's life totals have been brought down low. Thus, devoting resources to protecting her isn't as necessary, as I don't really care what happens to her too much.
Doing some research for other decks, I happened to look up Necropotence and discover that it's not necessarily nearly as expensive as I had thought it was. Sure, the FTV foil hovers around $10, but the older versions can be had for roughly half that much. I probably should have made room for that in here, as it's just a stupid-good draw spell in any deck that can run it. Derp. I've been thinking about cutting City of Brass, as I don't like that it has to deal damage to me every time I tap it. Sure, it's nice the first couple turns, but after that it really starts to take a toll, or just sits there unused. I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that I'm not playing a fast enough game here to justify its use. Cutting it would free up a few bucks to put Necropotence in, which would really help out the draw in this deck, for sure.
In the handful of games I've played against this deck, it seems like your biggest problem has been your (high) mana-curve. Your deck draws a lot of hate by nature, and not being able to establish much of an early board presence leaves you open to a lot of early aggression from other decks. Just my $.02.
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"Your old man's about to knock on the sky and listen to the sound"
In the handful of games I've played against this deck, it seems like your biggest problem has been your (high) mana-curve. Your deck draws a lot of hate by nature, and not being able to establish much of an early board presence leaves you open to a lot of early aggression from other decks. Just my $.02.
I agree. I plan on going through and determining which spells (high cmc spells in particular) I'm finding to be underwhelming in testing, and then finding some lower cmc spells to take their place. In games in which I start out with something like Sol Ring, a signet, and maybe Worn Powerstone or some other piece of acceleration in hand, things tend to go pretty well. I think I was able to drop a turn 2 Polluted Bonds with a similar starting hand yesterday. Getting cards like that (Zo-Zu the Punisher, Ankh of Mishra, etc.) out early, while people with are busy ramping and no one's really missing their land drops makes a world of difference.
In other news, I was able to trade towards Avacyn, Bruna, Gisela, and Sigarda, which I'm pretty excited about. It'd put me over budget here, but Gisela, Blade of Goldnight seems like she has to be an auto-include here. Doubling the damage each of my punishments deals out, while cutting the damage I take in half (I deal myself A LOT of damage) seems too good to pass up. Along those lines, Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood need to make a presence here. It'd be nice to have a game-winning combo (or at the very least another nice source of lifegain) in the deck. I guess the question is whether or not they would prove too difficult to assemble / cast / protect. It'd take 10 mana to cast them the same turn :weird:.
Woah wtf? When did Sanguine Bond go from jank $1 bin rare to like $6? O_o
Hum. It was $5 when I looked at it about a week ago. Up about another $1 today. If I had to guess it'd be the printing of Exquisite Blood, which makes such a nice combo with it that's jacking the price up.
Surely there has to be some other options for the buck and a half you have invested in Dread and Purity...maybe Hoard-Smelter Dragon and either Hoarding Dragon(if you have enough sac outlets) or Covetous Dragon(if you're sure you can usually keep at least one artifact on the board).
Surely there has to be some other options for the buck and a half you have invested in Dread and Purity...maybe Hoard-Smelter Dragon and either Hoarding Dragon(if you have enough sac outlets) or Covetous Dragon(if you're sure you can usually keep at least one artifact on the board).
Well, thing is I'm not trying to play a very aggressive game here, at all. Dread and Purity both help dissuade opponents from attacking me/dealing damage to me. Dread, in particular, has proven himself to be a real house. Fear means he's often getting through for 6, and I don't ever need to worry about leaving him up as a blocker - he'll destroy whatever creatures deal damage to me. Purity, on the other hand, has been so-so. To his credit, he turns my own Spellshock and other damage-dealing sources into lifegain for me, which shouldn't be underestimated, while also being a 6/6 flying blocker for 6. To his detriment, however, the :symw::symw::symw: in his casting cost makes him pretty difficult to play in a deck that has a pretty shaky mana-base, and a low white distribution to boot.
I guess that's fair. Not everyone wants to do the hyper-aggression build like myself.
Well, this is just something I'm trying out. I've found being "hyper-aggressive" to be: (1) relatively difficult to pull off consistently in multiplayer; and (2) pretty linear and kinda boring after a while. You have to be fast, efficient, and decisive, generally ramping into a superior board position and then destroying your opponents resources. It can be fun when it works, but no one else at the table likes it and it leads to a lot of 3v1 situations, in my experience (maybe it's just the way I play :p). I've been enjoying this deck, because it plays out rather differently each game, depending on which enchantments I draw, and then I just use Kaalia to cheat out Akroma v.1 or 2 to mop up my remaining opponents once everyone's worn down.
I'm not going to lie, I've sometimes wished that I had built this as a "hyper-aggressive" Kaalia deck. Cheating out fatties as early as turn 2, and consistently on turns 3 and 4 is really, REALLY fun. If this never pans out to be as viable of a strategy as I had hoped, I'll probably scrap it and go for a "step 1: ramp, step 2: hasty Kaalia, step 3: blow up all the lands" strategy.
Eh, haha, I've got the stigma in my own group of being "too aggressive/competitive" and everyone always guns for me. Regardless of what I play. So I just took the stance of "Meh, what happens, happens, lets blow up the world and blitz 'em as fast as I can."
It sucks, though. Because I have a thing for "cute interactions", and this methodology doesn't allow for cute interactions. Haha.
Eh, haha, I've got the stigma in my own group of being "too aggressive/competitive" and everyone always guns for me. Regardless of what I play. So I just took the stance of "Meh, what happens, happens, lets blow up the world and blitz 'em as fast as I can."
It sucks, though. Because I have a thing for "cute interactions", and this methodology doesn't allow for cute interactions. Haha.
Yeah, I have that same stigma. I could be playing Kami of the Crescent Moon and be gunned at until I'm dead :rolleyes:. I tend to just embrace it :mad1:.
I remembered another reason why I didn't go the super-aggressive route with this deck, though: the really good lands and mana rocks that I would want to ensure the best chance of consistently accelerating into an early, hasty Kaalia cost a lot (I'm looking at you Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, etc.). If I can't do it fast enough, there's no point in doing it at all. That's my philosophy.
Well you know; I dont even run crypt or diamond in mine(though i suppose diamond would be okay) and i do pretty damn strong anyway(admittedly i have the OG duala and everything else so its not for the weak of heart haha). I could see a budget manabase doing considerably well however it ultimately depends, IMHO, on how compeetitive the rest of the group is. If theyre og-compatible then yeah thats probably not gonna work haha.
Alternatively, send some discard their way, nothing says screw you like a mind twist for 6
Well you know; I dont even run crypt or diamond in mine(though i suppose diamond would be okay) and i do pretty damn strong anyway(admittedly i have the OG duala and everything else so its not for the weak of heart haha). I could see a budget manabase doing considerably well however it ultimately depends, IMHO, on how compeetitive the rest of the group is. If theyre og-compatible then yeah thats probably not gonna work haha.
Alternatively, send some discard their way, nothing says screw you like a mind twist for 6
Just out of curiosity, what does "og" (as in "og duala") mean? I get the gist, I think, but I'm not familiar with the terminology :p.
I looked over your list several times when I was putting this deck together, but I plan to head back to it now and take another look now that I have a better idea for how Kaalia plays (although our two decks have very different strategies for arriving at the same goal).
Regarding "how competitive the rest of the group is," that's one of the first things that kept me from building a super-fast, super-destructive Kaalia deck, as most everybody in my group just gets together for fun, and throws decks together from what they have in their collection and what they think would be fun/synergistic. Very rarely do any of them research or go out of their way to buy singles. So, a deck that doesn't allow them to play their cards would be highly frowned upon. I just opted to build a deck that punishes them for playing their cards. Thus far, everyone's agreed that it's been a really fun deck to play against, and I've found it to be a very fun deck to play. There's been a lot of "Wait. WHAT does that card say?" followed by a groan when I play cards that punish for playing lands, playing spells, attacking me, etc. I've found it quite enjoyable :evil:.
Just out of curiosity, what does "og" (as in "og duala") mean? I get the gist, I think, but I'm not familiar with the terminology :p.
I looked over your list several times when I was putting this deck together, but I plan to head back to it now and take another look now that I have a better idea for how Kaalia plays (although our two decks have very different strategies for arriving at the same goal).
Regarding "how competitive the rest of the group is," that's one of the first things that kept me from building a super-fast, super-destructive Kaalia deck, as most everybody in my group just gets together for fun, and throws decks together from what they have in their collection and what they think would be fun/synergistic. Very rarely do any of them research or go out of their way to buy singles. So, a deck that doesn't allow them to play their cards would be highly frowned upon. I just opted to build a deck that punishes them for playing their cards. Thus far, everyone's agreed that it's been a really fun deck to play against, and I've found it to be a very fun deck to play. There's been a lot of "Wait. WHAT does that card say?" followed by a groan when I play cards that punish for playing lands, playing spells, attacking me, etc. I've found it quite enjoyable :evil:.
OG = Original Duals. I meant to put "OG Duals", but I was on my phone and pushed the wrong key.
It's so weird, like I have a friend who builds the best he can, great combos and synergies, from Edric, Spymaster of Trest, to Teneb, the Harvester, to Merike Ri Berit, and then I have other people who play fun Slivers(without the 10 duals/shocks/fetches) and it can be hard for myself to fit in. I guess myself I have the desire to "make sure I win" because I am paying $5 to play, and I want to get as much return on that deposit as possible. Yeah, if I place low I get $5 in credit anyway...but I don't want the $5; I want as much as I can get.
On a side note, I really need to learn how to play "for fun" and find other ways of having fun than "just winning". I can't stand playing something that isn't optimized to the fullest degree, I guess.
Deck stats. Avg. cmc = 3.55.
1 Kaalia of the Vast
//Creatures (23)
1 Mother of Runes
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Rakdos the Defiler
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Angel of Despair
1 Balefire Dragon
1 Sun Titan
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
//Instants (8)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Terminate
1 Chaos Warp
1 Mortify
1 Oblation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vindicate
1 Damnation
1 Wrath of God
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Promise of Power
1 Austere Command
//Enchantments (7)
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Animate Dead
1 Aura of Silence
1 Fervor
1 Necromancy
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Stranglehold
//Artifacts (17)
1 Expedition Map
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Boros Signet
1 Charcoal Diamond
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Fire Diamond
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Marble Diamond
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Defense Grid
1 Quicksilver Amulet
1 Arid Mesa
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Caves of Koilos
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Fetid Heath
1 Graven Cairns
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 High Market
1 Marsh Flats
4 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
5 Plains
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Sulfurous Springs
6 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Volrath's Stronghold
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Also, the enchantment Reconnaissance combos well with Kaalia.
WG Gaddock Teeg and the Reveillark Experience [M][c]
U Azami Draws You Crazy [M][$]
WBVish Kal, the Patient [M]
WRGUBScion of the Double Dragon [M]$
WGBTeneb, the Home Wrecker [M]$
"For me metaphysics means something more like realism. That there is a reality that escapes any of its manifestations. You can never be quite sure what it is, but you can offer some description of what the structures of reality are." Graham Harman, The Prince and the Wolf
Hey, thanks for stopping in and for your suggestions :)!
I've gone back and forth on Bogardan Hellkite for a long time. He was originally in the list, then I took him out... then I put him back in... then took him back out. Ultimately, while he's a great creature, 8 mana for a 5/5 is a pretty steep cost if I can't cheat him in with Kaalia, and while the 5 extra damage is great, I don't really have a lot of ways to abuse him via bounce, blink, or recursion in this deck, so I ended up feeling like he didn't quite merit a slot. He may find his way back in at some point, depending on how things play out.
Oblivion Ring I actually hadn't considered here, somehow. It may well be a good inclusion, if I can find a slot, although I don't really like soft removal in EDH. I'd probably run Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares over O-Ring, and I have opted not even to include them here, at this point.
Reconnaissance is a card that I saw pop up in some Kaalia threads as I did my research for this deck, and it might very well be a worthy include. However, my plan here isn't to rely super-heavily on Kaalia to cheat things out early and often like a lot of decks do, so she won't be sticking her neck out there as often and risking getting blown up. Instead, I generally plan to drop her mid to late-game to cheat out a couple fatties to finish people off, after their life totals have already been whittled down.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
For anyone who cares about these types of things, I chose to use Plains #251 from Innistrad, Swamp #241 from Shards of Alara, and (perhaps my favorite) Mountain #78 from Duel Decks: Knights vs. Dragons. I'm pretty sure I looked through every Plains, Swamp, and Mountain art ever printed before settling on these, as I felt like they convey the sense of a desolate, ravaged, utterly destroyed landscape better than any others I came across. I feel like this really aids in creating the right ambience for a Kaalia of the Vast "punisher" deck. I'm pretty pleased!
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Anywho, I was able to observe a few things, namely that my budget mana base works out pretty well, particularly with the artifact fixing and ramp, and that some of the cards don't have the impact I would like them to. Kederekt Parasite, for example, fits the theme and overall purpose of the deck perfectly. However, given that I only have a handful of red permanents to meet the qualification for his ability (and most of those are late-game bombs that aren't going to get played early on), his usefulness diminishes greatly. Stuff like that is the kind of things I hope to take note of in testing, so that I can start to make improvements on the basis of how the deck actually functions in real time.
On another note, there's a handful of stuff I'd really like to include here from AVR, most notably the Sanguine Bond combo with Exquisite Blood and the uber-damage combo of Heartless Hidetsugu and Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. The problem is that I would have to find room in the budget for upwards of $10 of cards to make this happen. Sanguine Bond's price isn't going to drop anytime soon, but perhaps Gisela will come down a bit as AVR packs get opened a bit more.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Isloated Chapel and Clifftop Retreat are more expensive.
You have no cards that tuck enemy Commanders. Oblation is cheap.
Thanks for stopping in :).
I was actually just considering writing up a quick description of my card choices for each major type (creatures, artifacts, lands, etc.). I originally had the M10-M12 taplands and the Scars fastlands (well, I guess there's technically only one: Blackcleave Cliffs) in my list, but I had a hard time paring it down to ~$100 with them in there, and I ended up concluding that the money was probably better off spent elsewhere (maybe I shouldn't have bought a foil Akroma, Angel of Wrath, though :p). If they aren't reprinted in M13, they should drop pretty substantially after rotation, I'd imagine, as they're inferior to most everything, and I could possibly find room in the budget for them, then. That said, I'm anxious to get a couple dozen games with this deck under my belt, so I can see just how well/poorly the mana base functions as it is, and figure out what adjustments I need to make going forward.
You make a good point about tuck effects. I generally don't run Condemn, even in budget decks, because I don't like how situational it is. When and where I can, I like to avoid Oblation and other cards that allow my opponents to draw cards, as well. I hate it when I lose to the card that my opponent wouldn't have drawn if I didn't allow them to :mad:. That said, given the extremely limited amount of removal I'm currently running, and it's low monetary cost, I should probably seriously consider finding room for one here. It's another thing I want to feel out in playtesting. If I find myself consistently wanting more removal, I'll surely be adding it. If not, so much the better, I suppose.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Yes, spending on foil cards raises the cost! lol
Dragonskull Summit is about $3 tops, so you might want to just get that, so have a bit more color fixing. Then, as you said, see where the other Scars dual lands after Standard rotation. (and likewise, when Innistrad dual lands are rotated out)
Oblation can be used on one of your cards to get you to draw two cards. So, if one of your permanents is no longer useful in the game, tuck it and get something else. Oblation to tuck an pesky enemy general (or indestructible permanent) is sometimes worth giving them two cards. Even in budget decks, you need removal to deal with opponent's creatures and generals. You could also try to pick up Banishing Stroke as a tuck card. Yes, the casting cost sucks, but it's about 50 cents.
I don't run Condemn, even in my non-budget deck, because there are pesky generals and creatures that don't attack.
Conclusions: Spellshock is kind of a catch-22. It might well have dealt more damage to me than it did to my opponent over the course of the game. Speaking of things like that, I'm pretty sure I dealt more damage to myself than my opponent did overall... by a long shot. Not to mention the fact that I actually killed myself :lol:. I guess I just need to get used to the fact that there's going to be a lot of damaged being dished out when I play this deck, and be more careful to have sources of life gain in my hand/make them my tutor targets earlier on in the game. It also kind of sucked to be so non-interactive with my opponent's deck, particularly while he could (and did) counter anything and everything of mine that he felt like countering. I guess I'm just used to running a deck with in it myself.
Conclusions: I feel like I would build this deck far differently if I intended to play 1v1 regularly. Global punishment and life-gain effects are pretty lackluster vs. one opponent as opposed to many. I think 1v1 necessitates a race with Kaalia, and I would want to be ramping hard into her, dropping her in with haste, and beating my opponent's face with some big fliers before they could really do much about it. I'd probably toss in some blowing up of the lands to seal the deal. That sounds fun, truth be told, but given that I expect to be playing multiplayer 90%+ percent of the time, I think it's not the way to go. It's difficult to go full-on aggro against a full table of people and expect to do well.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Heyo, and thanks for stopping in :)!
Regarding mass LD, I think it takes the deck down an entirely different path than I have chosen to follow here. Truth be told, it's probably a better path, that involves: (1) ramping hard into an early, preferably hasty Kaalia; (2) blowing up all the lands; (3) beating your opponents' helpless faces with the fatties you cheat in with Kaalia. I consider that the standard, and perhaps most optimal Kaalia build, certainly for 1v1 play if not for multiplayer EDH as well. If I were to go that way, I'd drop all the "punisher" effects from the deck, add more artifact ramp, and run the full suite of Armageddon-type effects available in :symw::symb::symr:. That said, I think it's a slightly more difficult strategy to pull off in multiplayer than it is in 1v1. It turns the table into a 3v1 every time, guaranteed. Moreover, and really the bottom line, the fact is my playgroup abhors mass LD, so I chose to go a route that forgoes it :sad:.
Regarding Whispersilk Cloak, Swiftfoot Boots and the like, I think they're more a part of the mass LD-type Kaalia build, in which you rely HEAVILY on Kaalia to cheat stuff out. You're pretty boned if you're playing that strategy and Kaalia gets destroyed or exiled a bunch of times, or worse gets tucked. With this deck, I rely far, far less on Kaalia. Sometimes, I won't even/don't even need to bring her in. I mostly use her to cheat in a few fatties to clean things up once everyone's life totals have been brought down low. Thus, devoting resources to protecting her isn't as necessary, as I don't really care what happens to her too much.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Always looking to trade
I agree. I plan on going through and determining which spells (high cmc spells in particular) I'm finding to be underwhelming in testing, and then finding some lower cmc spells to take their place. In games in which I start out with something like Sol Ring, a signet, and maybe Worn Powerstone or some other piece of acceleration in hand, things tend to go pretty well. I think I was able to drop a turn 2 Polluted Bonds with a similar starting hand yesterday. Getting cards like that (Zo-Zu the Punisher, Ankh of Mishra, etc.) out early, while people with are busy ramping and no one's really missing their land drops makes a world of difference.
In other news, I was able to trade towards Avacyn, Bruna, Gisela, and Sigarda, which I'm pretty excited about. It'd put me over budget here, but Gisela, Blade of Goldnight seems like she has to be an auto-include here. Doubling the damage each of my punishments deals out, while cutting the damage I take in half (I deal myself A LOT of damage) seems too good to pass up. Along those lines, Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood need to make a presence here. It'd be nice to have a game-winning combo (or at the very least another nice source of lifegain) in the deck. I guess the question is whether or not they would prove too difficult to assemble / cast / protect. It'd take 10 mana to cast them the same turn :weird:.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Hum. It was $5 when I looked at it about a week ago. Up about another $1 today. If I had to guess it'd be the printing of Exquisite Blood, which makes such a nice combo with it that's jacking the price up.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Surely there has to be some other options for the buck and a half you have invested in Dread and Purity...maybe Hoard-Smelter Dragon and either Hoarding Dragon(if you have enough sac outlets) or Covetous Dragon(if you're sure you can usually keep at least one artifact on the board).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Well, thing is I'm not trying to play a very aggressive game here, at all. Dread and Purity both help dissuade opponents from attacking me/dealing damage to me. Dread, in particular, has proven himself to be a real house. Fear means he's often getting through for 6, and I don't ever need to worry about leaving him up as a blocker - he'll destroy whatever creatures deal damage to me. Purity, on the other hand, has been so-so. To his credit, he turns my own Spellshock and other damage-dealing sources into lifegain for me, which shouldn't be underestimated, while also being a 6/6 flying blocker for 6. To his detriment, however, the :symw::symw::symw: in his casting cost makes him pretty difficult to play in a deck that has a pretty shaky mana-base, and a low white distribution to boot.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Well, this is just something I'm trying out. I've found being "hyper-aggressive" to be: (1) relatively difficult to pull off consistently in multiplayer; and (2) pretty linear and kinda boring after a while. You have to be fast, efficient, and decisive, generally ramping into a superior board position and then destroying your opponents resources. It can be fun when it works, but no one else at the table likes it and it leads to a lot of 3v1 situations, in my experience (maybe it's just the way I play :p). I've been enjoying this deck, because it plays out rather differently each game, depending on which enchantments I draw, and then I just use Kaalia to cheat out Akroma v.1 or 2 to mop up my remaining opponents once everyone's worn down.
I'm not going to lie, I've sometimes wished that I had built this as a "hyper-aggressive" Kaalia deck. Cheating out fatties as early as turn 2, and consistently on turns 3 and 4 is really, REALLY fun. If this never pans out to be as viable of a strategy as I had hoped, I'll probably scrap it and go for a "step 1: ramp, step 2: hasty Kaalia, step 3: blow up all the lands" strategy.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
It sucks, though. Because I have a thing for "cute interactions", and this methodology doesn't allow for cute interactions. Haha.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Yeah, I have that same stigma. I could be playing Kami of the Crescent Moon and be gunned at until I'm dead :rolleyes:. I tend to just embrace it :mad1:.
I remembered another reason why I didn't go the super-aggressive route with this deck, though: the really good lands and mana rocks that I would want to ensure the best chance of consistently accelerating into an early, hasty Kaalia cost a lot (I'm looking at you Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, etc.). If I can't do it fast enough, there's no point in doing it at all. That's my philosophy.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Alternatively, send some discard their way, nothing says screw you like a mind twist for 6
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Just out of curiosity, what does "og" (as in "og duala") mean? I get the gist, I think, but I'm not familiar with the terminology :p.
I looked over your list several times when I was putting this deck together, but I plan to head back to it now and take another look now that I have a better idea for how Kaalia plays (although our two decks have very different strategies for arriving at the same goal).
Regarding "how competitive the rest of the group is," that's one of the first things that kept me from building a super-fast, super-destructive Kaalia deck, as most everybody in my group just gets together for fun, and throws decks together from what they have in their collection and what they think would be fun/synergistic. Very rarely do any of them research or go out of their way to buy singles. So, a deck that doesn't allow them to play their cards would be highly frowned upon. I just opted to build a deck that punishes them for playing their cards. Thus far, everyone's agreed that it's been a really fun deck to play against, and I've found it to be a very fun deck to play. There's been a lot of "Wait. WHAT does that card say?" followed by a groan when I play cards that punish for playing lands, playing spells, attacking me, etc. I've found it quite enjoyable :evil:.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
OG = Original Duals. I meant to put "OG Duals", but I was on my phone and pushed the wrong key.
It's so weird, like I have a friend who builds the best he can, great combos and synergies, from Edric, Spymaster of Trest, to Teneb, the Harvester, to Merike Ri Berit, and then I have other people who play fun Slivers(without the 10 duals/shocks/fetches) and it can be hard for myself to fit in. I guess myself I have the desire to "make sure I win" because I am paying $5 to play, and I want to get as much return on that deposit as possible. Yeah, if I place low I get $5 in credit anyway...but I don't want the $5; I want as much as I can get.
On a side note, I really need to learn how to play "for fun" and find other ways of having fun than "just winning". I can't stand playing something that isn't optimized to the fullest degree, I guess.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.