Thrun, the Last Troll: a Primer His crime was silence, and now he suffers it eternally.
This primer is here to create an aggressive Voltron deck built around Thrun the Last Troll. This is not the place to find token, combo, or other unrelated strategies. However, if you're interested in building around a resilient General that can win any game, this might be the place you.
Personal Bio
My name is Ryan, and I first picked up Magic: The Gathering in the Spring of 2003 when Scourge was released. The first card I ever owned was Goblin Warchief and the first deck I ever played was, of course, Goblins. Over the next six years I played mostly Standard and enjoyed it for the most part. However, in early 2009, I found a new game shop that played formats other than Standard. Something called "E.D.H." I had no idea what it stood for, but over the next month I quickly learned all I could about the "format" and did whatever cards I found to be multiplayer worthy. Unfortunately, most of my collection was Standard only (at the time this was Shards of Alara and the soon to be released Conflux).
Coming off of my favorite standard season ever, the Faeries of Lorwyn were very good to me, I thought it would be interesting to try a faster, yet under powered (or so I thought), first general in Vendillion Clique. My first choices were Doran, the Siege Tower and Rafiq of the Many, but at the time, and over the next year, those were unavailable in that play group (they limited each Commander to one person so that they didn't have to deal with the legendary rule). At first, Vendillion Clique was underwhelming and became a bit stale countering everyone's spells while having no endgame. That all changed, though, when I met an experienced player who introduced me to Hinder, Spin Into Myth, and Tunnel Vision. In less than an hour, my Clique list when from an underpowered, stale, tribal deck to an overpowered 'complaint machine.' Within a week, I had to abandon Clique and search for something new that wouldn't make the rest of my group whiney little girls.
Recently, with the help of the community, I built a strong Doran list, very similar to the Thrun list you'll see below. Unfortunately, because of meta changes, Doran became much less potent. At the same time, Thrun's abilities became more more relevant. Therfore, as a result, the deck was converted to what you see now. Many of the same cards, ideas, and principles are implemented here, including the general Voltron theme. I hope that you can enjoy what we have created here and even become a contributer.
Thank you for reading, I'm glad you can share, enjoy, and help create "Thrun, Trolls with Swords."
Why Play Thrun?
After playing Doran for a long while, I looked for a General that could hit as hard, or possibly harder, but be able to stand up against control. Because of my admitted love affair with Thrun (ISBPathfinder can attest to this) and the fact he came direct from the old list, Thrun was an obvious choice. I still wanted to be able to run a creature-based deck, and the Voltron theme continually appealed to me (Thrun being excellent with a Voltron theme and green having some of the best utility creatures), thus the fit was perfect.
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Pros
- Thrun protects himself from both spot removal and "Day of Judgment" effects.
- Green has access to some of the very best creatures (Primeval Titan, Avenger of Zendikar, Eternal Witness, etc.).
- Green also has access to the best creature tutors (Worldly Tutor, Tooth and Nail, and Chord of Calling).
- Playing only one color gives us a steady mana base that can still play important non-basic lands without comprimising color production.
- Green is generally a very fun and versatile color to play. We have access to ramp, card draw, amazing removal, and there's those green creatures you keep hearing about!
- Mono green has a low threat perception in most playgroups. Although you wield very powerful cards, in many situations, other players will ignore you to go after other players with more threatening colors.
Cons
- Constant "Wrath" effects ruin our day
- Unlike decks with red, we cannot combat blue counterspells/combos
- Green's card draw is often situational, unlike black or blue.
- Most, if not all, of our creatures have triggered or activated abilities. We have a very tough time against Humility effects.
- Green lacks tutors for artifacts and enchantments, which is the base of the Voltron style.
Deck History
This deck originated out of the 2011 French Nationals 1v1 Doran, the Siege Tower list. While searching for 1v1 info on Edric, I stumbled across a Doran list that intrigued me. I had been a long-time fan of Doran, and on past experiences alone, I decided to print off the list, and attempt to extrapolate it into a multiplayer deck.
With the help of the MTGS Community (looking at you sH0opdAwoOp, ISBPathfinder, and Jack_From_NC), the list was trimmed of the 1v1 'fat' and was built up with core multiplayer cards. Unfortunately, Doran, even with these changes, wasn't as competitive as I had hoped. In several talks with ISBPathfinder (who has been a huge help overall), I came to the realization that, while I do love Doran, maybe he wasn't the right commander for me.
Over the next few days I pondered the list and what needed to be done to make it a) competitive and b) fun to play. I considered a host of generals, most notably Sigarda, Host of Herons, that could fill my requirements (creature-based Voltron-style decks). I even considered scrapping the whole idea and just building combo, but eventually I came back to where I was, knowing that I really love Voltron, and I'm just not meant to be a combo player (I'm enough of a jerk already ;)).
But then, something ISB had said to me recently about Thrun came back into my mind, "I can sort of see him as a commander in a counter / control heavy meta." While this certainly wasn't a ringing endorsement, it did get me thinking about the recent shift in my meta to control decks; Sharuum, Niv-Mizzet, Oona (x2), Ith, etc. all made new homes in my playgroup. Maybe Thrun was the type of general I needed. I had played Thrun before, when he was first released (though it was much less successful in an aggressive meta), and I enjoyed it back then, why wouldn't I now when the meta is better suited to Thrun?
Since then, Thrun has been captain of my 'Mono Green Mean Machine' and there's been no looking back. Spare a Damnation or two, the deck keeps on running strong.
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Deck List
The following decklist is my preferred version to run. It's not necessarily the best 99 (does this really exist?), but it's the combination of cards that I find the most entertaining and fun to play as well as the 99 that gives me the best chance to win. It is not meant to stifle creativity, the opposite in fact, this decklist is constantly evolving from new suggestions by people like you.
What is the goal of the deck?
The goal is to kill your opponents through General damage or generic combat damage. This is accomplished by controlling opponent's threats when needed (via spot removal and/or utility creatures), and being aggressive in the 'Red Zone.'
When to play Thrun
Against a removal-heavy deck, the best time to play Thrun is when you have 1G available to protect him. Against control, you're going to want to play him quickly and start hitting. As you'll be playing against both in a multiplayer game, assess which deck you need to take first (sometimes this is just a hunch), and then imply the strategy for that deck type.
How to pilot Thrun at various stages
Early game you'll want to get out extra mana or mana sources if possible, play Thrun, and with protection available, aggressively attack your opponents. Playing the afforementioned Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top for filtering is also going to be a huge help to developing your midgame. Troll Ascetic is also very good early game if you can get a Jitte or Sword equipped and start swinging.
The mid game is where you'll start utilizing the spot removal (Beast Within, Krosan Grip, etc). These are going to save us against hosers like Humility. You'll also want to getting another equipment or two down to feed Thrun and/or Troll Ascetic.
When to be offensive/defensive
BE OFFENSIVE, You've Got to Be Offensive! Thrun suffers from consistent aggressive behavior. Use this to your advantage. There are a few times where you'll be defensive, if only for a turn or two, but those are not common and will be addressed on a case-by-case basis.
Is Thrun needed to win/What to do When Thrun gets tucked?
Although Thrun is an excellent path to victory, you do have plenty of other powerful creatures that can win you games. Therefore, depending on the point of the game you're in, it may not be worth finding Thrun if he gets tucked. But, if you do, Wordly Tutor, Brutalizer Exarch, etc. all do a great job of it.
Strengths
Our strengths lie in decks that want to be faster than us (i.e. Elves) or decks that want to control us without board wipes (Teferi, Vendillion Clique, etc). Against fast decks, they may get some early damage in, but our creatures start to quickly outclass theirs.
Weaknesses
Heavy control decks with multiple board sweepers, Prison decks, and worst of all, Combo decks, can be a major problem for us. Luckily, against Prison decks, we usually have answers for their threats. But constant board wiping and having your opponent combo out is a major issue. Some times we can stop artifact based combos if there's one or two major pieces. But other than that, we don't have too many ways to stop it.
Overcoming Weaknesses
A quick start or an opponent not finding that Wrath immediately are big for us. Even if we only get some damage in, that's usually enough for us to pull out a win later in the game. You also count on other members of the table to contribue here. For example, against combo decks, usually you'll find all the aggro/voltron/beatdown decks go at them first, and they become less of an issue as the game goes on.
Explanation
Primal Order often caused more problems than it solved. As trancer99 put it, "I was always sad to draw it." Mana Crypt makes us faster, and we need to be faster. It's an additional Sol Ring affect with a small drawback (though ti sometimes turns big).
2CC Sakura-Tribe Elder:STE is an early drop that can ramp you into an extra land if you need it -or- it can stick around to get involved in combat (especially with an early Jitte). Sakura-Tribe Elder is a classic and favorite among many long-time Commander players, and in mono green deck that plans to win through the Red Zone, a creature that can either ramp or fight is what we want. Scavenging Ooze: Graveyards are used as an additional resource in Commander, it's important that we combat them in some manner. This yard hate even grows and can fight later in the game. Fauna Shaman: a bear, a creature tutor, and a yard feeder (see Brawn and Genesis). It's worth noting that Fauna Shaman needs to wait a turn to activate in normal circumstances and can only activate once per turn. Skinshifter: this is a personal favorite of mine, and although many people dislike it, Skinshifter is a 4/4 creature with Trample that can protect itself on your opponent's turns (8 is a lot of toughness when it matters).
3CC Troll Ascetic: a miniature version of our fearless general, Troll Ascetic is great at wielding [card=Sword of Fire and Ice]beatsticks[/c], and protects himself with Troll Shroud (Hexproof for some of you). Eternal Witness: The best creature of all time? Possibly. A requirement in a creature-based deck running green? Absolutely. Regrowth on legs, and works excellent with Skullclamp and Genesis. Wood Elves: This elf is a Nature's Lore on legs. Paying only one extra mana for a creature that can draw you cards with Skullclamp or swing in with equipment, is well worth it. Fierce Empath: Empath is a creature tutor on legs that comes down early to set up your mid game. Also abusable with Skullclamp/Gensis. Yavimaya Elder: (aka Grandpa, "The O.G. of EDH", etc.) Elder is one of the best green creatures of all time, and is extremely versatile (both ramps and draws). Loaming Shaman: This creature has similar applications to Scavenging Ooze above. Although it's only a one-shot, Loaming Shaman's ETB ability is versatile enough to hit your opponents yard or shuffle cards you need back into your library.
4CC Solemn Simulacrum: The "Solemn Golem" finds a home in most Commander decks nowadays, and this list is no different. Ramp + Card Draw + 2/2 Bear for 4 is a steal, even today. Brawn: This selection is pretty simple, we need our creatures to do damage and Brawn allows us to do that. Just get Brawn in your yard and control a Forest. After that, it's all gravy. Oracle of Mul Daya: The ability to consistently ramp each turn with a bonus of a 2/2 body. Yeva, Nature's Herald: If playing awesome fatties is good, then playing them at instant speed must be great. Wickerbough Elder: Although a 3/3 for 4 isn't great, have a G available and this guy's versatility shines through. Plus, once you utilize him, he actually gets better!
5CC Indrik Stomphowler: Adding Naturalize to a 4/4 for G is more than worth it. It's all about versatility here (note this theme for most of the creatures here). Thornling: With a few extra G mana available, this creature is a star. Haste? Trample? Indestructible? Yep, this guy does it all. Not only that, you can pump for offense or defense. Seedborn Muse: This is an amazing creature, especially here with all of our activated abilities. See amazing synergy with Winter Orb. Acidic Slime: see Indrik Stomphowler, but add Deathtouch. Genesis: If you can get this guy in your yard, you'll have consistent creature recursion every turn. It doesn't get much better.
6CC Primeval Titan: even in a deck that cannot capitalize on Prime Time's ability, he's so amazingly good "just" as a 6/6 for 6 with Trample that adds two lands each turn. Deadwood Treefolk: This 'folk gives you two recursion triggers AND still hits hard with a Sword. Brutalizer Exarch: the two best functions of Primal Command on a 3/3 creature.
7CC Woodfall Primus: This treefolk's two noncreature removal triggers, paired with it's Trample ability and resiliency, make Woodfall Primus one of the best fatties in the game. Regal Force: Green generally has troubles drawing cards, Regal Force does that in spades and comes with a 5/5 body. Avenger of Zendikar: Although 0/1 tokens are unimpressive to start, Avenger of Zendikar gives you hoards of them and grows them for you every land drop. Pair with Regal Force and/or Primeval Titan for shenanigans.
8CC Terastodon: The fattest of the fatties, Terastodon gives you a huge body and an amazing affect. However, because he's often used to take out opponent's lands, Terastodon may find himself on the "DB List" in your area. This is a personal choice each player has to make for themselves.
Planeswalkers
Garruk, Primal Hunter: Although he may not even be the best planeswalker of his subtype (Garruk), this Garruk may find a spot in your list, simply because he can draw you cards. A lot of cards. And while his 2nd ability is the main attraction, his 1st ability is definitely useful, and his 3rd wins games. Karn Liberated: One of the more expensive options, Karn gives us a way to deal with any permanent. He also rips cards out of your opponent's hand and sends them to exile, an ability that should not be overlooked.
Artifacts
Sword of Fire and Ice: This equipment is all about the card draw. Although the "shock" ability and blue/red protection can sometimes be useful, all you really want is more cards in your hand. Sword of Light and Shadow: This sword grants the two best colors to have protection from (Black/White removal is everywhere). It also recurs creatures and every once-in-a-while the lifegain is relevant. Sword of Feast and Famine: While forcing your opponent to discard is nice, we're really using this for the 'Protection from Black' and to untap all of our lands. Umezawa's Jitte: This wields amazing versatility for an equipment. Jitte is not easily outclassed, even in a multiplayer format like Commander. Darksteel Plate: Although Thrun does have the ability to regenerate, sometimes that's just not good enough. Lightning Greaves: Greaves is your basic haste enabler. It does conflict somewhat with our equipment suite, but paying attention to your play quickly solves this issue. Sol Ring: The best artifact ever. Sol Ring can lead to an early attacking Thrun, an early fatty, or big ramp spells coming down fast. Mana Crypt: Similar to Sol Ring, but is casted for 0 instead of 1. The drawback is occasionally Bolt'n yourself. The benefits almost always outweigh the life loss. Sensei's Divining Top: Top helps us filter our upcoming cards and it does it cheaply and efficiently. Birthing Pod: Tutoring for creatures and putting them directly into play is good, right? Note our mana curve has the ability to abuse Pod. Skullclamp: 'Clamp is all about card draw and a sacrifice outlet. Don't be afraid to pitch your early dorks to draw cards.
Enchantments
Sylvan Library: This is similar to Sensei's Divining Top, except that instead of just card filtering, Library can actually draw you all three cards if you're willing to pay the life. Primal Order: There are a LOT of nonbasic lands in Commander. While most of our opponents will be 2-3 colors and using multiple nonbasic lands, almost our entire landbase is basic. Rancor: For the small cost of G, Rancor adds 2 power, gives Trample, and returns to your hand. Auras simply don't get better. Bear Umbra: Protecting Thrun is very important, being able to also untap all your lands is stupid good. Snake Umbra: Another card that gives us a way to draw cards, plus it protects the creature, an added bonus. Blanchwood Armor: Simple and pure raw power here. Most of the times we cast this it's going to grant the creature at least +5/+5. However, many times this ends up being a much larger number. Vow of Wilderness: A powerful offensive aura or defensive spell to hold off an opposing foe? Both. Lignify: similar to Vow of Wilderness defensively, but does not have the versatility to compete offensively. Probably an auto-include pre-Beast Within.
Sorceries
Nature's Lore: A cheap and effective ramp that allows us to use the Forest after. Strict upgrade from Rampant Growth here. Cultivate: The classic ramp card, both Cultivate and Kodama's Reach lead to an early Thrun, but can also be potent later in the game. Kodama's Reach: See above. Skyshroud Claim: This card is packed with value. For one extra colorless mana, we get to find Forest cards instead of land (very relevant in two+ color, still great here) AND they come into play untapped. Hunting Wilds: A poor man's Skyshroud Claim, but essentially another copy of Claim here. Explosive Vegetation: See above. Regrowth: This is the best recursion spell we have; cheap, effective, and like a tutor for our Yard. Restock: Getting one card back from your graveyard is very good, getting two back is simply amazing. Depending on the time, Restock can be backbreaking for an opponent. Tooth and Nail: Tutoring for two creatues and/or putting two creatures into play, off of one card... TnN is absurd is most decks, and there's no exception here. Tooth and Nail can actually win games itself (Avenger of Zendikar + Regal Force is a good example). Gaea's Blessing: There are decks who will attempt to kill you by getting rid of your library, Gaea's Blessing stops that, and even if you're not playing against that style of deck, it isn't a dead card. Plow Under: This sets one of your opponents back at least two turns, if not more depending on the land. Favorite targets include Cabal Coffers, Academy Ruins, and Gaea's Cradle. Harmonize: Probably a card Green should never have been given, but since we were, we'll take it! Collective Unconscious: This often enables massive card draw, though the drawback can be relevant, and you may have to wait a bit to use it. Primal Command: Usually, this is a five mana creature tutor and land removal. But, when it needs to be, it can also take care of an opposing Graveyard, or give us a fresh start on our library.
Instants
Worldly Tutor: Efficient creature tutoring with a slight drawback of putting the card on top of your library. Krosan Grip: Grip is one of the two best artifact removal spells in the game. Whether you're stopping opposing artifact combo or just removing a pesky Top, Krosan Grip deserves a spot in your list. Beast Within: The new staple in green removal, Beast Within is a problem solver, with the only drawback being a 3/3 Beast token. Hunter's Insight: More Green card draw that's usually great. Similar to Collective Unconscious, it's all about timing. Chord of Calling: Not only is this a creature tutor that puts the creature direction into play, it's also an Instant, and can often be cast for little to no mana.
Lands
Yavimaya Hollow: Most of our creatures don't come with built-in regeneration, Yavimaya Hollow fixes that. Oran-Rief, the Vastwood: Oran-Rief is really good with Avenger of Zendikar tokens, and in general adding a +1/+1 counter to our creatures is going to be a good thing. Strip Mine: This is necessary removal in a non-basic land dominated game. Unlike Wasteland, it can remove basics if needed. Wasteland: See above, only for non-basic lands. Tranquil Thicket: Thicket is there for you to discard and draw when you don't need it and a usable land when you do. Slippery Karst: See above. Winding Canyons: This is like Yeva, Nature's Herald as a land. The only drawback is that it can only be used once a turn. Buried Ruin: Sometimes our Swords get destroyed, and sometimes we need them back. Treetop Village: A 3/3 beater with Trample that taps for G when you need it. Temple of the False God: In a deck that ramps quickly, Temple only gets better. Forest: The foundation of any Green deck.
Card Overview
Essentially, this section explains why we run one card over another.
... coming soon!
Have you played it at all yet? Great selection of removal, but my instinct says there aren't enough bombs and there isn't enough incentive to play EDH aggro.
You're going to run out of gas fairly quick with this setup. A boardwipe and you are set back badly. More draw, particularly Skullclamp, would be a good idea.
That this deck was originally intended for 1v1 play seems still too readily apparent. The first things I would suggest would be that you need more mass removal, which your colors has the very best of (Wrath of God, Damnation, Hallowed Burial, Terminus, Austere Command), and that you consider replacing creatures that are fantastic in 1v1 but severely outclassed in multiplayer. I would personally lose all of your 1-drop mana dorks, since they'll get eaten up in the wraths everyone else is running and that you should be running, and replace them with either Farhaven Elf-type ramp if you want to abuse them with Reveillark, or Cultivate-type ramp if you don't. Similarly, Fauna Shaman is outclassed by both Birthing Pod and Survival of the Fittest, and creatures like Knight of the Reliquary just aren't going to get there in multiplayer. You'll need to up your creature curve, including stuff like Sun Titan and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite instead of stopping at the 5-drop slot.
Thank you for the replies. I'll try to answer things one by one.
1) Budget - none really, I have the cash... however, I'm cheap (unless it comes in foil!)
2) Played it. Check.
3) The reason I built this deck is because of playing against Ezuri and Edric (where my stuff gets bigger and I can race them) and Oona (I'm usually just too fast for her).
4) Skullclamp is actually something I've been pondering for awhile. It gives me a great use of those mana dorks later in the game.
5) Speaking of mana dorks, the deck's best way to win is t1 mana dork or mox/petal, etc to set up turn 2 Doran. Hence all the dorks.
BONUS! One thing I want to convey is that this deck is meant to be beatdown. It's not meant to be every other Elesh Norn deck that I see. I don't want the mana curve too high (getting a handful of 6CC< creatures in the early game really delays the process).
Thanks again for all the suggestions, I'm going to take some time to consider them all, and see what I come up with.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
5) Speaking of mana dorks, the deck's best way to win is t1 mana dork or mox/petal, etc to set up turn 2 Doran. Hence all the dorks.
BONUS! One thing I want to convey is that this deck is meant to be beatdown. It's not meant to be every other Elesh Norn deck that I see. I don't want the mana curve too high (getting a handful of 6CC< creatures in the early game really delays the process).
I just have a hard time imagining you aggroing out 3-4 players with the setup you have before they hate you off the table, particularly with the lack of late-game staying power going on here. Every other Elesh Norn deck is an Elesh Norn deck because she's just that good, and having a 7% chance of her turning up in your opening hand is worth what she does to the board. That's just my $.02 though.
Sidebar: I don't know how my previous post ended up above the post I was quoting. Now I look like a double-posting newb...
I just have a hard time imagining you aggroing out 3-4 players with the setup you have before they hate you off the table, particularly with the lack of late-game staying power going on here. Every other Elesh Norn deck is an Elesh Norn deck because she's just that good, and having a 7% chance of her turning up in your opening hand is worth what she does to the board. That's just my $.02 though.
I agree with what you're saying... it's important to me to stay a deck with focus (i.e. beats), and not just become another Timmy Doran deck. I think that Sun Titan is an excellent inclusion. I also think that at least a good portion of the 'dorks and probably Lotus Petal can be removed to make way for strictly better multiplayer cards like Sun Titan.
EDIT:
How did this get above the post you were quoting? lol...
Yes, for exactly the same reasons that Tarmogoyf is great in Legacy but terribad in EDH.
I'd have to disagree and say knight of the reliquary is one of the BEST creatures in edh... If your deck has a land based theme. I wish I could run it in damia.. But you'd have to run way more "land" based spells to take advantage of it like constant mists , crucible of worlds, life from the loam etc..
Also, why all the 1cc mana dorks? Seems really bad. Maybe leave birds at least he can block flyers. Otherwise the other ones should be replaced with ramp spells or mana rocks.
I'd have to disagree and say knight of the reliquary is one of the BEST creatures in edh... If your deck has a land based theme. I wish I could run it in damia.. But you'd have to run way more "land" based spells to take advantage of it like constant mists , crucible of worlds, life from the loam etc..
Also, why all the 1cc mana dorks? Seems really bad. Maybe leave birds at least he can block flyers. Otherwise the other ones should be replaced with ramp spells or mana rocks.
I mean, it's basically a Weathered Wayfarer that puts the land into play, which is obviously a big deal. If I wanted a land tutor, I'd probably look at playing KotR, and if that's what you want him for, then that's fine. But as a beater, he's completely outclassed by dozens of other creatures.
I like the idea of having so many answers available with the Empath. However, this would lead me to cutting Dark Confidant. I would have to find another route for card draw.
Thoughts?
EDIT:
Also, here are some ideas to make better use of Treefolk Harbinger:
Faunua Shaman - #10 on the Top 30 Green Creatures of EDH
Knight of the Reliquary - #10 on the Top 25 Multi-Color Creatures of EDH
[Birthing Pod] is #2 on the Top 20 Green Non-Creatures. I would personally play it over Fauna Shaman probably every time, given the opportunity, if for no other reasons than that it has an immediate impact, baring Krosan Grip, whereas you're not guaranteed to get any value out of Shaman, and that it puts the creature on the battlefield rather than in your hand. For some reason Survival of the Fittest is all the way down at #16 on the list, which boggles my mind. In any case, I get this feeling that we're going to disagree on a lot of decision, here, so I think I'll just bugger off :p.
[Birthing Pod] is #2 on the Top 20 Green Non-Creatures. I would personally play it over Fauna Shaman probably every time, given the opportunity, if for no other reasons than that it has an immediate impact, baring Krosan Grip, whereas you're not guaranteed to get any value out of Shaman, and that it puts the creature on the battlefield rather than in your hand. For some reason Survival of the Fittest is all the way down at #16 on the list, which boggles my mind. In any case, I get this feeling that we're going to disagree on a lot of decision, here, so I think I'll just bugger off :p.
lol, nah I guess here's the way I look at it... Fauna Shaman is a creature, easy to tutor for, and low cost. Survival and Birthing Pod are *harder* to tutor for, and with Birthing Pod, I have to get creatures into play before I can ditch them. With Survival and Fauna Shaman, they just need to get to my hand. I'd say we can probably meet in the middle here and agree that Survival of the Fittest is a good choice.
The top 50 lists are alphabetized, so that #2 or #10 or whatever don't matter at all Those updates look spot on, much more EDH-y.
I was using the #s as a reference to guide him where to look. I wasn't trying to state that either were the 10th best card of their respective lists. Now that I say that, you're probably responding to sH0opdAwoOp's comment... lol, never mind.
I'll be testing out the updates here soon (just ordered some of the stuff I didn't have). I'd still like to fit Deadwood Treefolk in, but I feel like the curve is getting too high already.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
At the advice of ISBPathfinder, I fit Eladamri's Call into the list, which gave me something to pull Ohran Viper for. Creatures are now at 32, which is probably right around where I want to be.
Thanks to the help of ISBPathfinder, the primer has been cleaned up, expanded and contracted where necessary, and some cards were upgraded (see Change Log).
Still looking for more reader feedback and suggestions!
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
His crime was silence, and now he suffers it eternally.
This primer is here to create an aggressive Voltron deck built around Thrun the Last Troll. This is not the place to find token, combo, or other unrelated strategies. However, if you're interested in building around a resilient General that can win any game, this might be the place you.
My name is Ryan, and I first picked up Magic: The Gathering in the Spring of 2003 when Scourge was released. The first card I ever owned was Goblin Warchief and the first deck I ever played was, of course, Goblins. Over the next six years I played mostly Standard and enjoyed it for the most part. However, in early 2009, I found a new game shop that played formats other than Standard. Something called "E.D.H." I had no idea what it stood for, but over the next month I quickly learned all I could about the "format" and did whatever cards I found to be multiplayer worthy. Unfortunately, most of my collection was Standard only (at the time this was Shards of Alara and the soon to be released Conflux).
Coming off of my favorite standard season ever, the Faeries of Lorwyn were very good to me, I thought it would be interesting to try a faster, yet under powered (or so I thought), first general in Vendillion Clique. My first choices were Doran, the Siege Tower and Rafiq of the Many, but at the time, and over the next year, those were unavailable in that play group (they limited each Commander to one person so that they didn't have to deal with the legendary rule). At first, Vendillion Clique was underwhelming and became a bit stale countering everyone's spells while having no endgame. That all changed, though, when I met an experienced player who introduced me to Hinder, Spin Into Myth, and Tunnel Vision. In less than an hour, my Clique list when from an underpowered, stale, tribal deck to an overpowered 'complaint machine.' Within a week, I had to abandon Clique and search for something new that wouldn't make the rest of my group whiney little girls.
Over the next two years I piloted a plethora of Legendary creatures, including Korlash, Heir to Blackblade, Omnath, Locus of Mana, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, Kami of the Crescent Moon, Braids, Conjurer Adept, Rafiq of the Many, and oh so many more. I enjoyed playing new decks with new interactions all the time. It got to a point where I just started swapping weekly, which wasn't good for the budget.
Recently, with the help of the community, I built a strong Doran list, very similar to the Thrun list you'll see below. Unfortunately, because of meta changes, Doran became much less potent. At the same time, Thrun's abilities became more more relevant. Therfore, as a result, the deck was converted to what you see now. Many of the same cards, ideas, and principles are implemented here, including the general Voltron theme. I hope that you can enjoy what we have created here and even become a contributer.
Thank you for reading, I'm glad you can share, enjoy, and help create "Thrun, Trolls with Swords."
After playing Doran for a long while, I looked for a General that could hit as hard, or possibly harder, but be able to stand up against control. Because of my admitted love affair with Thrun (ISBPathfinder can attest to this) and the fact he came direct from the old list, Thrun was an obvious choice. I still wanted to be able to run a creature-based deck, and the Voltron theme continually appealed to me (Thrun being excellent with a Voltron theme and green having some of the best utility creatures), thus the fit was perfect.
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Pros
- Thrun protects himself from both spot removal and "Day of Judgment" effects.
- Green has access to some of the very best creatures (Primeval Titan, Avenger of Zendikar, Eternal Witness, etc.).
- Green also has access to the best creature tutors (Worldly Tutor, Tooth and Nail, and Chord of Calling).
- Playing only one color gives us a steady mana base that can still play important non-basic lands without comprimising color production.
- Green is generally a very fun and versatile color to play. We have access to ramp, card draw, amazing removal, and there's those green creatures you keep hearing about!
- Mono green has a low threat perception in most playgroups. Although you wield very powerful cards, in many situations, other players will ignore you to go after other players with more threatening colors.
Cons
- Constant "Wrath" effects ruin our day
- Unlike decks with red, we cannot combat blue counterspells/combos
- Green's card draw is often situational, unlike black or blue.
- Most, if not all, of our creatures have triggered or activated abilities. We have a very tough time against Humility effects.
- Green lacks tutors for artifacts and enchantments, which is the base of the Voltron style.
This deck originated out of the 2011 French Nationals 1v1 Doran, the Siege Tower list. While searching for 1v1 info on Edric, I stumbled across a Doran list that intrigued me. I had been a long-time fan of Doran, and on past experiences alone, I decided to print off the list, and attempt to extrapolate it into a multiplayer deck.
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The following decklist is my preferred version to run. It's not necessarily the best 99 (does this really exist?), but it's the combination of cards that I find the most entertaining and fun to play as well as the 99 that gives me the best chance to win. It is not meant to stifle creativity, the opposite in fact, this decklist is constantly evolving from new suggestions by people like you.
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Creatures [26]
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Skinshifter
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
1 Fierce Empath
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Brawn
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Yeva, Nature's Herald
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Thornling
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Acidic Slime
1 Genesis
1 Primeval Titan
1 Deadwood Treefolk
1 Brutalizer Exarch
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Regal Force
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Artifacts [11]
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darksteel Plate
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Birthing Pod
1 Skullclamp
Enchantments [6]
1 Sylvan Library
1 Rancor
1 Bear Umbra
1 Snake Umbra
1 Blanchwood Armor
1 Vow of Wilderness
Sorceries [14]
1 Nature's Lore
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Hunting Wilds
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Regrowth
1 Restock
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Plow Under
1 Harmonize
1 Collective Unconscious
1 Primal Command
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Beast Within
1 Hunter's Insight
1 Chord of Calling
Land [36]
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Slippery Karst
1 Winding Canyons
1 Buried Ruin
1 Treetop Village
27 Forest
DeckStats Evaluation
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What is the goal of the deck?
The goal is to kill your opponents through General damage or generic combat damage. This is accomplished by controlling opponent's threats when needed (via spot removal and/or utility creatures), and being aggressive in the 'Red Zone.'
What to look for in opening hands?
You're going to want at least a few mana sources, a utility creature or ramp spell (i.e. Wood Elves, Sol Ring, and/or Kodama's Reach), and hopefully something for Thrun to swing with (Sword of Fire and Ice comes to mind). Finding a Sensei's Divining Top or Sylvan Library is a definite bonus.
When to play Thrun
Against a removal-heavy deck, the best time to play Thrun is when you have 1G available to protect him. Against control, you're going to want to play him quickly and start hitting. As you'll be playing against both in a multiplayer game, assess which deck you need to take first (sometimes this is just a hunch), and then imply the strategy for that deck type.
How to pilot Thrun at various stages
Early game you'll want to get out extra mana or mana sources if possible, play Thrun, and with protection available, aggressively attack your opponents. Playing the afforementioned Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top for filtering is also going to be a huge help to developing your midgame. Troll Ascetic is also very good early game if you can get a Jitte or Sword equipped and start swinging.
The mid game is where you'll start utilizing the spot removal (Beast Within, Krosan Grip, etc). These are going to save us against hosers like Humility. You'll also want to getting another equipment or two down to feed Thrun and/or Troll Ascetic.
Into the late game, you're looking for your bomb spells and creatures, Tooth and Nail or Chord of Calling into fat creatures like Avenger of Zendikar, Primeval Titan, Woodfall Primus, and/or Regal Force are going to win you games. While Thrun isn't as powerful late game as he is early game, you have plenty of other creatures to go to work for you here.
When to be offensive/defensive
BE OFFENSIVE, You've Got to Be Offensive! Thrun suffers from consistent aggressive behavior. Use this to your advantage. There are a few times where you'll be defensive, if only for a turn or two, but those are not common and will be addressed on a case-by-case basis.
Is Thrun needed to win/What to do When Thrun gets tucked?
Although Thrun is an excellent path to victory, you do have plenty of other powerful creatures that can win you games. Therefore, depending on the point of the game you're in, it may not be worth finding Thrun if he gets tucked. But, if you do, Wordly Tutor, Brutalizer Exarch, etc. all do a great job of it.
Alternate Wincons
Avenger of Zendikar + Primeval Titan and/or Regal Force. This is made easier by Tooth and Nail, Chord of Calling, and Fierce Empath.
Strengths
Our strengths lie in decks that want to be faster than us (i.e. Elves) or decks that want to control us without board wipes (Teferi, Vendillion Clique, etc). Against fast decks, they may get some early damage in, but our creatures start to quickly outclass theirs.
Weaknesses
Heavy control decks with multiple board sweepers, Prison decks, and worst of all, Combo decks, can be a major problem for us. Luckily, against Prison decks, we usually have answers for their threats. But constant board wiping and having your opponent combo out is a major issue. Some times we can stop artifact based combos if there's one or two major pieces. But other than that, we don't have too many ways to stop it.
Overcoming Weaknesses
A quick start or an opponent not finding that Wrath immediately are big for us. Even if we only get some damage in, that's usually enough for us to pull out a win later in the game. You also count on other members of the table to contribue here. For example, against combo decks, usually you'll find all the aggro/voltron/beatdown decks go at them first, and they become less of an issue as the game goes on.
Game Log
... coming soon!
Change Log
Added
1 Vow of Wilderness
Removed
1 Lignify
Explanation
Vow of Wilderness is more versatile than Lignify (can be both aggressive and defensive) and it fits our Voltron theme.
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Added
1 Mana Crypt
Removed
1 Primal Order
Explanation
Primal Order often caused more problems than it solved. As trancer99 put it, "I was always sad to draw it." Mana Crypt makes us faster, and we need to be faster. It's an additional Sol Ring affect with a small drawback (though ti sometimes turns big).
Credit: Trancer99
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Test Log
... coming soon!
Creatures
1CC
Treefolk Harbinger: This little guy can find you Wickerbough Elder, Deadwood Treefolk, Woodfall Primus, or a Forest. Unfortunately, it doesn't put it into your hand. Some may find this useful enough for a slot, others may not.
2CC
Sakura-Tribe Elder:STE is an early drop that can ramp you into an extra land if you need it -or- it can stick around to get involved in combat (especially with an early Jitte). Sakura-Tribe Elder is a classic and favorite among many long-time Commander players, and in mono green deck that plans to win through the Red Zone, a creature that can either ramp or fight is what we want.
Scavenging Ooze: Graveyards are used as an additional resource in Commander, it's important that we combat them in some manner. This yard hate even grows and can fight later in the game.
Fauna Shaman: a bear, a creature tutor, and a yard feeder (see Brawn and Genesis). It's worth noting that Fauna Shaman needs to wait a turn to activate in normal circumstances and can only activate once per turn.
Skinshifter: this is a personal favorite of mine, and although many people dislike it, Skinshifter is a 4/4 creature with Trample that can protect itself on your opponent's turns (8 is a lot of toughness when it matters).
3CC
Troll Ascetic: a miniature version of our fearless general, Troll Ascetic is great at wielding [card=Sword of Fire and Ice]beatsticks[/c], and protects himself with Troll Shroud (Hexproof for some of you).
Eternal Witness: The best creature of all time? Possibly. A requirement in a creature-based deck running green? Absolutely. Regrowth on legs, and works excellent with Skullclamp and Genesis.
Wood Elves: This elf is a Nature's Lore on legs. Paying only one extra mana for a creature that can draw you cards with Skullclamp or swing in with equipment, is well worth it.
Fierce Empath: Empath is a creature tutor on legs that comes down early to set up your mid game. Also abusable with Skullclamp/Gensis.
Yavimaya Elder: (aka Grandpa, "The O.G. of EDH", etc.) Elder is one of the best green creatures of all time, and is extremely versatile (both ramps and draws).
Loaming Shaman: This creature has similar applications to Scavenging Ooze above. Although it's only a one-shot, Loaming Shaman's ETB ability is versatile enough to hit your opponents yard or shuffle cards you need back into your library.
4CC
Solemn Simulacrum: The "Solemn Golem" finds a home in most Commander decks nowadays, and this list is no different. Ramp + Card Draw + 2/2 Bear for 4 is a steal, even today.
Brawn: This selection is pretty simple, we need our creatures to do damage and Brawn allows us to do that. Just get Brawn in your yard and control a Forest. After that, it's all gravy.
Oracle of Mul Daya: The ability to consistently ramp each turn with a bonus of a 2/2 body.
Yeva, Nature's Herald: If playing awesome fatties is good, then playing them at instant speed must be great.
Wickerbough Elder: Although a 3/3 for 4 isn't great, have a G available and this guy's versatility shines through. Plus, once you utilize him, he actually gets better!
5CC
Indrik Stomphowler: Adding Naturalize to a 4/4 for G is more than worth it. It's all about versatility here (note this theme for most of the creatures here).
Thornling: With a few extra G mana available, this creature is a star. Haste? Trample? Indestructible? Yep, this guy does it all. Not only that, you can pump for offense or defense.
Seedborn Muse: This is an amazing creature, especially here with all of our activated abilities. See amazing synergy with Winter Orb.
Acidic Slime: see Indrik Stomphowler, but add Deathtouch.
Genesis: If you can get this guy in your yard, you'll have consistent creature recursion every turn. It doesn't get much better.
6CC
Primeval Titan: even in a deck that cannot capitalize on Prime Time's ability, he's so amazingly good "just" as a 6/6 for 6 with Trample that adds two lands each turn.
Deadwood Treefolk: This 'folk gives you two recursion triggers AND still hits hard with a Sword.
Brutalizer Exarch: the two best functions of Primal Command on a 3/3 creature.
7CC
Woodfall Primus: This treefolk's two noncreature removal triggers, paired with it's Trample ability and resiliency, make Woodfall Primus one of the best fatties in the game.
Regal Force: Green generally has troubles drawing cards, Regal Force does that in spades and comes with a 5/5 body.
Avenger of Zendikar: Although 0/1 tokens are unimpressive to start, Avenger of Zendikar gives you hoards of them and grows them for you every land drop. Pair with Regal Force and/or Primeval Titan for shenanigans.
8CC
Terastodon: The fattest of the fatties, Terastodon gives you a huge body and an amazing affect. However, because he's often used to take out opponent's lands, Terastodon may find himself on the "DB List" in your area. This is a personal choice each player has to make for themselves.
Planeswalkers
Garruk, Primal Hunter: Although he may not even be the best planeswalker of his subtype (Garruk), this Garruk may find a spot in your list, simply because he can draw you cards. A lot of cards. And while his 2nd ability is the main attraction, his 1st ability is definitely useful, and his 3rd wins games.
Karn Liberated: One of the more expensive options, Karn gives us a way to deal with any permanent. He also rips cards out of your opponent's hand and sends them to exile, an ability that should not be overlooked.
Artifacts
Sword of Fire and Ice: This equipment is all about the card draw. Although the "shock" ability and blue/red protection can sometimes be useful, all you really want is more cards in your hand.
Sword of Light and Shadow: This sword grants the two best colors to have protection from (Black/White removal is everywhere). It also recurs creatures and every once-in-a-while the lifegain is relevant.
Sword of Feast and Famine: While forcing your opponent to discard is nice, we're really using this for the 'Protection from Black' and to untap all of our lands.
Umezawa's Jitte: This wields amazing versatility for an equipment. Jitte is not easily outclassed, even in a multiplayer format like Commander.
Darksteel Plate: Although Thrun does have the ability to regenerate, sometimes that's just not good enough.
Lightning Greaves: Greaves is your basic haste enabler. It does conflict somewhat with our equipment suite, but paying attention to your play quickly solves this issue.
Sol Ring: The best artifact ever. Sol Ring can lead to an early attacking Thrun, an early fatty, or big ramp spells coming down fast.
Mana Crypt: Similar to Sol Ring, but is casted for 0 instead of 1. The drawback is occasionally Bolt'n yourself. The benefits almost always outweigh the life loss.
Sensei's Divining Top: Top helps us filter our upcoming cards and it does it cheaply and efficiently.
Birthing Pod: Tutoring for creatures and putting them directly into play is good, right? Note our mana curve has the ability to abuse Pod.
Skullclamp: 'Clamp is all about card draw and a sacrifice outlet. Don't be afraid to pitch your early dorks to draw cards.
Enchantments
Sylvan Library: This is similar to Sensei's Divining Top, except that instead of just card filtering, Library can actually draw you all three cards if you're willing to pay the life.
Primal Order: There are a LOT of nonbasic lands in Commander. While most of our opponents will be 2-3 colors and using multiple nonbasic lands, almost our entire landbase is basic.
Rancor: For the small cost of G, Rancor adds 2 power, gives Trample, and returns to your hand. Auras simply don't get better.
Bear Umbra: Protecting Thrun is very important, being able to also untap all your lands is stupid good.
Snake Umbra: Another card that gives us a way to draw cards, plus it protects the creature, an added bonus.
Blanchwood Armor: Simple and pure raw power here. Most of the times we cast this it's going to grant the creature at least +5/+5. However, many times this ends up being a much larger number.
Vow of Wilderness: A powerful offensive aura or defensive spell to hold off an opposing foe? Both.
Lignify: similar to Vow of Wilderness defensively, but does not have the versatility to compete offensively. Probably an auto-include pre-Beast Within.
Sorceries
Nature's Lore: A cheap and effective ramp that allows us to use the Forest after. Strict upgrade from Rampant Growth here.
Cultivate: The classic ramp card, both Cultivate and Kodama's Reach lead to an early Thrun, but can also be potent later in the game.
Kodama's Reach: See above.
Skyshroud Claim: This card is packed with value. For one extra colorless mana, we get to find Forest cards instead of land (very relevant in two+ color, still great here) AND they come into play untapped.
Hunting Wilds: A poor man's Skyshroud Claim, but essentially another copy of Claim here.
Explosive Vegetation: See above.
Regrowth: This is the best recursion spell we have; cheap, effective, and like a tutor for our Yard.
Restock: Getting one card back from your graveyard is very good, getting two back is simply amazing. Depending on the time, Restock can be backbreaking for an opponent.
Tooth and Nail: Tutoring for two creatues and/or putting two creatures into play, off of one card... TnN is absurd is most decks, and there's no exception here. Tooth and Nail can actually win games itself (Avenger of Zendikar + Regal Force is a good example).
Gaea's Blessing: There are decks who will attempt to kill you by getting rid of your library, Gaea's Blessing stops that, and even if you're not playing against that style of deck, it isn't a dead card.
Plow Under: This sets one of your opponents back at least two turns, if not more depending on the land. Favorite targets include Cabal Coffers, Academy Ruins, and Gaea's Cradle.
Harmonize: Probably a card Green should never have been given, but since we were, we'll take it!
Collective Unconscious: This often enables massive card draw, though the drawback can be relevant, and you may have to wait a bit to use it.
Primal Command: Usually, this is a five mana creature tutor and land removal. But, when it needs to be, it can also take care of an opposing Graveyard, or give us a fresh start on our library.
Instants
Worldly Tutor: Efficient creature tutoring with a slight drawback of putting the card on top of your library.
Krosan Grip: Grip is one of the two best artifact removal spells in the game. Whether you're stopping opposing artifact combo or just removing a pesky Top, Krosan Grip deserves a spot in your list.
Beast Within: The new staple in green removal, Beast Within is a problem solver, with the only drawback being a 3/3 Beast token.
Hunter's Insight: More Green card draw that's usually great. Similar to Collective Unconscious, it's all about timing.
Chord of Calling: Not only is this a creature tutor that puts the creature direction into play, it's also an Instant, and can often be cast for little to no mana.
Lands
Yavimaya Hollow: Most of our creatures don't come with built-in regeneration, Yavimaya Hollow fixes that.
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood: Oran-Rief is really good with Avenger of Zendikar tokens, and in general adding a +1/+1 counter to our creatures is going to be a good thing.
Strip Mine: This is necessary removal in a non-basic land dominated game. Unlike Wasteland, it can remove basics if needed.
Wasteland: See above, only for non-basic lands.
Tranquil Thicket: Thicket is there for you to discard and draw when you don't need it and a usable land when you do.
Slippery Karst: See above.
Winding Canyons: This is like Yeva, Nature's Herald as a land. The only drawback is that it can only be used once a turn.
Buried Ruin: Sometimes our Swords get destroyed, and sometimes we need them back.
Treetop Village: A 3/3 beater with Trample that taps for G when you need it.
Temple of the False God: In a deck that ramps quickly, Temple only gets better.
Forest: The foundation of any Green deck.
Card Overview
Essentially, this section explains why we run one card over another.
... coming soon!
For example, does me no good to suggest things like imperial seals or grim tutors or cradles when they are certainly out of reach.
Have you played it at all yet? Great selection of removal, but my instinct says there aren't enough bombs and there isn't enough incentive to play EDH aggro.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Yes, for exactly the same reasons that Tarmogoyf is great in Legacy but terribad in EDH.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
1) Budget - none really, I have the cash... however, I'm cheap (unless it comes in foil!)
2) Played it. Check.
3) The reason I built this deck is because of playing against Ezuri and Edric (where my stuff gets bigger and I can race them) and Oona (I'm usually just too fast for her).
4) Skullclamp is actually something I've been pondering for awhile. It gives me a great use of those mana dorks later in the game.
5) Speaking of mana dorks, the deck's best way to win is t1 mana dork or mox/petal, etc to set up turn 2 Doran. Hence all the dorks.
6) Treefolk Harbinger gets Wickerbough Elder, most of my ABU duals, most of my shocklands, Murmuring Bosk, and most importantly Doran, the Siege Tower after he gets tucked, lol... I don't hate Crib Swap though. I'll add it to the list of ideas.
7) Wait, are you really saying Knight of the Reliquary isn't good enough for multiplayer?
BONUS! One thing I want to convey is that this deck is meant to be beatdown. It's not meant to be every other Elesh Norn deck that I see. I don't want the mana curve too high (getting a handful of 6CC< creatures in the early game really delays the process).
Thanks again for all the suggestions, I'm going to take some time to consider them all, and see what I come up with.
I just have a hard time imagining you aggroing out 3-4 players with the setup you have before they hate you off the table, particularly with the lack of late-game staying power going on here. Every other Elesh Norn deck is an Elesh Norn deck because she's just that good, and having a 7% chance of her turning up in your opening hand is worth what she does to the board. That's just my $.02 though.
Sidebar: I don't know how my previous post ended up above the post I was quoting. Now I look like a double-posting newb...
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I agree with what you're saying... it's important to me to stay a deck with focus (i.e. beats), and not just become another Timmy Doran deck. I think that Sun Titan is an excellent inclusion. I also think that at least a good portion of the 'dorks and probably Lotus Petal can be removed to make way for strictly better multiplayer cards like Sun Titan.
EDIT:
How did this get above the post you were quoting? lol...
I have to respectfully disagree. KotR has been a beater and a mana fixer from day one for me.
I'd have to disagree and say knight of the reliquary is one of the BEST creatures in edh... If your deck has a land based theme. I wish I could run it in damia.. But you'd have to run way more "land" based spells to take advantage of it like constant mists , crucible of worlds, life from the loam etc..
Also, why all the 1cc mana dorks? Seems really bad. Maybe leave birds at least he can block flyers. Otherwise the other ones should be replaced with ramp spells or mana rocks.
I mean, it's basically a Weathered Wayfarer that puts the land into play, which is obviously a big deal. If I wanted a land tutor, I'd probably look at playing KotR, and if that's what you want him for, then that's fine. But as a beater, he's completely outclassed by dozens of other creatures.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Faunua Shaman - #10 on the Top 30 Green Creatures of EDH
Knight of the Reliquary - #10 on the Top 25 Multi-Color Creatures of EDH
if it was zebra of the reliquary it would be #25 on the list
Just saying
You kidding? I'd much rather have a Zebra than a bland Knight!
Anyways, current thoughts I'm having about cuts/adds etc..
I'm looking at adding a Fierce Empath package. This would include:
I like the idea of having so many answers available with the Empath. However, this would lead me to cutting Dark Confidant. I would have to find another route for card draw.
Thoughts?
EDIT:
Also, here are some ideas to make better use of Treefolk Harbinger:
[Birthing Pod] is #2 on the Top 20 Green Non-Creatures. I would personally play it over Fauna Shaman probably every time, given the opportunity, if for no other reasons than that it has an immediate impact, baring Krosan Grip, whereas you're not guaranteed to get any value out of Shaman, and that it puts the creature on the battlefield rather than in your hand. For some reason Survival of the Fittest is all the way down at #16 on the list, which boggles my mind. In any case, I get this feeling that we're going to disagree on a lot of decision, here, so I think I'll just bugger off :p.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
lol, nah I guess here's the way I look at it... Fauna Shaman is a creature, easy to tutor for, and low cost. Survival and Birthing Pod are *harder* to tutor for, and with Birthing Pod, I have to get creatures into play before I can ditch them. With Survival and Fauna Shaman, they just need to get to my hand. I'd say we can probably meet in the middle here and agree that Survival of the Fittest is a good choice.
EDIT: Here are the adds/cuts I'm considering:
ADD [15]
CUT [15]
One major concern I have is removing all that fast mana, and replacing it with higher CMC creatures/spells. I'm hoping it doesn't bog down the deck.
I was using the #s as a reference to guide him where to look. I wasn't trying to state that either were the 10th best card of their respective lists. Now that I say that, you're probably responding to sH0opdAwoOp's comment... lol, never mind.
I'll be testing out the updates here soon (just ordered some of the stuff I didn't have). I'd still like to fit Deadwood Treefolk in, but I feel like the curve is getting too high already.
Feedback is appreciated!
Still looking for more reader feedback and suggestions!