Although I really like my original Kaalia build, it's gotten to be kind of tedious to play. Every game plays out as a complete blowout, and usually not in my favor because an answer for the early Kaalia leaves me with very little to do for much of the game. The games where the deck works are awesome, but those don't happen often enough to justify running headlong into the hate every time and hoping for the best.
I recently built Vish Kal token stax, and it was an interesting experience since I've never played anything like stax before that. However, I didn't quite fully commit to stax (as evidenced by my 7-drop commander), and the deck ended up feeling lacking. I couldn't capitalize fully on the disruption my stax pieces created, and I usually lost to whoever was playing green since they could easily outramp my disruption. The problem was that I didn't want to play purposeful mass land destruction, because that would keep me from playing my expensive commander and other high-end cards.
Since Kaalia automatically faces a ton of hate as a commander just for what she can do, I decided to try a different strategy that might afford me a more resilient gameplan that isn't always decided on turn 3 or 4. In short, I combined Vish Kal with Kaalia, and this is the result:
I still have very little stax experience, so I'm sure there are things missing that would be completely obvious to anyone more familiar with the archetype. Comments and criticisms are always welcome, although things like The Abyss and Nether Void are out of my price range for now.
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I'm saving this because I may wish to return to this type of build in the future.
The entire premise of this deck is to land a turn 2 mana rock, turn 3 Kaalia, and start dropping huge bombs from turn 4 on. If the deck seems very all-in on that plan, that's because, well, it is.
Looks pretty good, you gave me some good card ideas for modifying my own deck; saved me doing a lot of gatherer hunting
A few suggestions I found from doing my searches:
Twilight Shepherd - Casting an Orim's Thunder or what have you precombat and sneaking this in is decent, and it's also reasonable if someone sweeps your board during combat. It's not a windmill slam, but it seems like a reasonable card to consider.
Twilight Shepherd: Only returns dead permanents, since the cards need to die from the battlefield, so no getting back Orim's Thunder. It also doesn't do anything proactive off Kaalia, and I'd rather play cards that do. It's easy enough not to overextend into wraths when any one or two of the creatures in the entire deck is enough to warrent one.
Rakdos the Defiler: It's good the one time you attack with it off Kaalia, and then it's a 7/6 blocker. I'd rather have things that can keep attacking, and also it's a little too "gimmicky" for my tastes.
Defiler of Souls: I tend to only have 2-4 creatures out at any given time, and enough of mine are monocolored I don't want to be having to sacrifice them.
Dragon Mage: The thing about Kaalia is that if an opponent can answer her before she attacks, she will get answered. I don't want to make it any easier kill her before my second chance to attack with her by giving my opponents 14/21 new cards.
Thunder Dragon: I don't have any, but if I can pick it up it seems reasonable to test. Oros, the Avenger seems like a reasonable option too. The problem is more that I'd rather be able to kill fliers that can block my creatures than creatures that can't.
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: I considered that, but if it takes 3 attacks to kill and if it dies before it does that than it doesn't help my other noninfect creatures at all.
Hall of the Bandit Lord: I need to get one, there are few enough ways to cast Kaalia on turn 3 AND give her haste that the drawback might not be too bad.
I have to admit, Crypt Angel is certainly something I hadn't even really considered. However the fact that it only targets red creatures in this deck makes its versatility somewhat limited.
Since you are already running both Karmic Guide and Kiki-Jiki, maybe something you should be considering is the possibility of running Reveillark granted you would have to hard cast it. However from what I can tell he has a brutal combo with both Kiki-Jiki and Karmic Guide. Plus worst comes to worst he can recur your General
I am not a huge fan of either Ajani's, Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Sorin in this deck. However Liliana Vess is a great addition to this deck for obvious reasons.
Phyrexian Reclamation is something I myself hadn't actually considered as it allows you to reuse cards that have died with your General. The downfall to the card is the life point cost that is entailed with using it. I personally prefer Death Denied, which while not recurable, is definitely just as useful for this purpose and in someways cheaper.
Reconnaissance is a superb way to protect the General that I had not seen before. It ironically also has the side effect of protecting Sun Titan if you are running it. Dolmen Gate is another excellent way to protect ones General that I had not considered. I am surprised you are running only the sword that protects against 2/3rds of your deck. If someone were to cast Acquire on you while that is still in your deck they could significantly hurt your deck's strategy by gaining control of that card.
I am not a huge fan of Oblation. I much prefer Condemn. While Oblation has the benefit of hitting any permanent, it has the drawback of shuffling it into the opponents library, and then letting them draw two cards followed by a third on their next turn giving them a much better chance of getting the card you shuffled back in back than would be the case off of a condemn. The only advantage I Can see with Oblation over Condemn is if you are dealing frequently with Generals who turn into enchantments or don't attack regularly.
Personally I think the deck in the OP needs more and better tutors than it currently has, but thats just me. I also think Vindicate is sub par removal. While it does hit just about anything in the format, it sends them to the graveyard, which there is simply better places in WRB that we can be sending cards to with our removal (such as the bottom of the library, and the exiled zone for example).
And is Disaster Radius really the best mass removal option to be running? Wouldn't something like Hallowed Burial or Decree of Pain be better?
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As for other people's suggestions.
Twilight Shepherd is probably one of the weaker suggestions alot of people seem interested in making for the purpose of enhancing Kaalia decks. I personally don't run Twilight Shepherd in my Kaalia deck, preferring instead to run the Karmic Guide + Adarkar Valkyrie combo in order to get permanents back from the graveyard primarily.
Rakdos the Defiler is one of those Build Around Me cards. And while he can be potentially good, he kind of requires some investment to make himself exceptional. However if you are willing to put the effort into making him exceptional he becomes particularly good at what he is designed to do. Though I personally don't mind the idea of having a 7/6 blocker, I will probably be cutting him myself pending testing with the guy.
One has to keep in mind that with Dragon Mage, you aren't just giving opponents new cards, you are getting rid of their old cards. Thereby preventing them from answering Kaalia or any of your current creatures with their old cards. This makes protecting her somewhat easier from that regard, but also somewhat difficult from the perspective that you don't really know what the new cards are going to be.
Personally I don't really find Bogardan Hellkite and Thunder Dragon to be particularly useful. I prefer creatures such as Mordant Dragon who can potentially kill pesky flyers.
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just as a cross comparison here is a link to my Kaalia deck thread in case you are curious where I am coming from as far as a deck designer.
Oh and something you may or may not wish to consider as far as designing your Kaalia deck. Now that Worldgorger Dragon is no longer banned in EDH, you may want to consider the possibility of putting in an Infinite Worldgorger Combo with which to abuse the Dragon. I have personally decided against it as the risk of having it removed at instant speed mid combo is simply not worth the advantages that it grants towards winning the game (same risks as having a Realm Razer removed at Instant Speed prior to having it's Enters the Battlefield effect resolve).
Twilight Shepherd: Only returns dead permanents, since the cards need to die from the battlefield, so no getting back Orim's Thunder. It also doesn't do anything proactive off Kaalia, and I'd rather play cards that do. It's easy enough not to overextend into wraths when any one or two of the creatures in the entire deck is enough to warrent one.
Ah, I misread the card, that's much worse than I thought. Consider it scrapped
Rakdos the Defiler: It's good the one time you attack with it off Kaalia, and then it's a 7/6 blocker. I'd rather have things that can keep attacking, and also it's a little too "gimmicky" for my tastes.
I agree, but I think it depends on how many people you're playing with. In a 3-4 player game, it might be worth playing to shut someone out of the game, and attacking won't be the end of the world if you can guarantee you'll hit someone and screw them over. It's much better if you run that guy in the precon (can't think of the name) that bounces a red creature every turn, makes it a much more potent threat.
Defiler of Souls: I tend to only have 2-4 creatures out at any given time, and enough of mine are monocolored I don't want to be having to sacrifice them.
Fair enough. As I said, most of these were just suggestions to consider in case people hadn't seen/thought of them.
Dragon Mage: The thing about Kaalia is that if an opponent can answer her before she attacks, she will get answered. I don't want to make it any easier kill her before my second chance to attack with her by giving my opponents 14/21 new cards.
Well, the way I see it with Dragon Mage is that you can potentially make your opponents pitch cards they've tutored up, making them pitch combo pieces or what have you, and filling up your own hand in the process. Filling up your hand with more gas to sneak in off Kaalia is never a bad thing, especially when you have a lot of graveyard recursion to get even more benefit out of its ability.
When playing the precon, I found I was really wanting for a wheel of fortune style effect to refill my hand when it didn't have enough gas; granted, there's a lot of bad cards in the precon version you just don't want in the first place, but that's what I got from playing it.
Thunder Dragon: I don't have any, but if I can pick it up it seems reasonable to test. Oros, the Avenger seems like a reasonable option too. The problem is more that I'd rather be able to kill fliers that can block my creatures than creatures that can't.
True enough, but it's nice to have a fallout on a stick against goblin/token/elf EDH decks.
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: I considered that, but if it takes 3 attacks to kill and if it dies before it does that than it doesn't help my other noninfect creatures at all.
Also true; was just a suggestion, not really a "this will be a good card" sort of thing.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Going through everything DalkonCledwin mentioned...
Reveillark: Including Kaalia, I have 7 targets. While it is indeed very good with Kiki-Jiki and Karmic Guide, it just doesn't do enough otherwise to justify inclusion over something Kaalia can play.
Planeswalkers: Liliana is definitely the best. I'm down to just Ajani besides her, since he's decent removal. I am considering Sorin over him, just as a way to punch through heavy lifegain that might otherwise give me trouble. Edit: I've decided to try Debtors' Knell over Ajani because Ajani is pretty weak to just play for removal and my curve is already shot to hell lol.
Death Denied: I tried it, but the one-shot nature just didn't feel like enough. I'd rather be able to cherry-pick my graveyard repeatedly whenever I need to than take a turn to return everything once.
Acquire and SoLaS: No one runs Acquire in my meta, so that's not an issue. I could see how that could be bad, but SoLaS is repeatable recursion with a side of evasion, which is something this deck very much wants.
Condemn vs Oblation: I like not being restricted to attackers, and I've found that the 2 cards are usually well worth an instant-speed tuck-Vindicate. If I get another Chaos Warp, that'll probably be going in the deck too.
Tutors: I have enough redundancy in my mana rocks and my Kaalia targets that I'd rather fit in more fun angels and dragons than tutors. I'm okay with the inconsistency fewer tutors brings in this deck.
Vindicate: I like being able to remove anything, so I'm okay with running one sorcery-speed removal spell given how versatile it is.
Disaster Radius: I'm operating under the idea that my creatures will generally be better than my opponents', so the two wrath effects I run are ones that won't affect my creatures. Disaster Radius is almost always just a Plague Wind for 2 less in this deck.
Dragon Mage: Yes, he makes them discard any answers they're currently holding, but if I'm at the point where I'm attacking with Kaalia to drop the Dragon Mage, in my playgroup that's pretty solid evidence that they aren't holding any removal regardless.
Mordant Dragon: Given that he needs to hit your opponent, I would think he'd be less reliable for killing fliers than Bogardan Hellkite, which is direct damage. I also can abuse the Hellkite much more easily with Kiki-Jiki or Erratic Portal.
Worldgorger Dragon: Both I and my group frown on instant-win combos, so I don't want to run that.
Edit: @MiffedMoogle:
I'm not running Sunforger; I have too few targets as you said. I'm also running only 5 non-angel/dragon creatures, and they're all too good to cut.
Edit2: @Moruk:
I've found with this build that I can usually find creatures for Kaalia without resorting to giving my opponents full new hands just to draw some cards myself. It's really just too dangerous to give my opponents so many cards in my meta.
I expected to see Sunforger, so I guess my mind made it up. Alrighty, we aren't you running it?
On your non-tribal targets. How have you found Mother of Runes? It seems quite underpowered to me, as does Sun Titan in a deck like this. What are you hoping to return with Sun Titan? Lands and some utility mana rocks and maybe occasionally enchantments and lands seems rather weak for what you can do.
You said your playgroup frowns on combos, but have you considered Sword of Feast and Famine, over Light and Shadow? It interacts well with Hellkite Charger (as in wins you the game) and works well for a second main phase of action.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
I started out with Sunforger in the deck, but I found that even when I drew it, I just didn't have time to play it and equip and leave mana up to use in any kind of timeframe that would make it relevant. Put simply, I just don't have room nor the inclination to make the room it would take to properly abuse Sunforger.
Mother of Runes is amazing. If I can drop her before Kaalia she greatly increases the chance that Kaalia will live to swing. Even later in the game, she allows me to attack Kaalia into superior flying forces or continue to protect her from spot removal.
For Sun Titan, just being able to return a land every turn is still quite good in a nongreen deck, especially one with so high a curve as this deck has. It also recurs Lightning Greaves, which alone is almost reason enough to run it. I added it after all of my games with the deck, but I can't remember any point in any game after turn 4 or so that I didn't have targets for it to return if I had had it.
I did consider Sword of Feast and Famine, but the way I see it, Kaalia already has something pretty close built-in. Being able to drop a free dragon or angel before casting something else is already very strong, and I usually can't fill my hand so quickly as to really need the extra SoFaF effect. Also, there is the combo with Hellkite Charger which I'd rather avoid.
I have really tried to make a deck with her, but she is just too awkward, to agro for multi-play and too weak for 1-on-1. That is $30 I will never get back, wish I had thought it out better.
I have really tried to make a deck with her, but she is just too awkward, to agro for multi-play and too weak for 1-on-1. That is $30 I will never get back, wish I had thought it out better.
That is rough, give her time! I think she is really good and like Mayael forces people to react to you. She is also still one of best (best imo), albeit out of only three generals in her colours. 1v1 you're probably right, but multiplayer is also always different in the outcome.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
I played some 1v1 with my build, and it really comes down to the meta you're in. If your opponent has decks that have a high amount of spot removal or counters for the turn 3 Kaalia, winning is very difficult. If they don't, then you're fully capable of racing whatever craziness they're attempting (barring combos, I'm sure, but that isn't a real factor in my meta). So I would say that while you shouldn't take her to a 1v1 tournament is you want to take 1st, she is still fun for casual 1v1.
As for multiplayer, it usually requires some politics to properly wield her. The trick is to avoid attacking someone the moment it becomes clear they could answer Kaalia, and make it very obvious that you're doing so. They'll probably be happy to let you take down your mutual opponents' lifetotals as long as you don't touch them. Sooner or later, they'll use their removal elsewhere since Kaalia seemingly isn't a threat to them, or you'll find protection for her, and then you can go back to hitting them too. Not overextending is key. Usually just 1 to 2 angels or dragons are all it takes to draw out a wrath, and with 22 of them in the deck, plus a fair amount of recursion, you should have more threats than your opponents have sweepers.
Have you considered land destruction as a potential way to turn it around? Resolving Kaalia and then a mass land removal spell (or in 1v1 just a single land removal) can hose people while you play stuff for free. It works especially well with artifact mana.
I recently got the heavenly inferno deck and ive turned it into a tribal beatdown. aside from abhoring an empty hand (ive never played a deck without blue before) i seem to have a hard time balancing threats.
about how many would you guys run? i mean the big creatures that kaalia drops?
@DNJ17: I'm getting a Desolation Angel to test with the deck (can't be Kaalia'd, but it's on theme :D), but otherwise I'd rather not get into LD. I've been trying to reduce the amount of mass LD in my playgroup, and running it myself won't help the cause.
@zilant: I have 22 creatures that Kaalia can drop, and that generally seems to be working for me. Night Dealings usually also counts as at least one more, thanks to the interaction I note in the OP. Things that recur creatures to your hand like Phyrexian Reclamation also help, since it's quite likely that not everything you drop will live.
The only problem is that I'm not sure what to cut for it; I've reached the point where I can justify every card in the deck. I think I may just have to wait until I've played another half dozen games with the deck to really see what might not be pulling its weight.
Night Dealings has been the best inclusion thus far in my Kaalia deck!
It was a 4-player Free-for-all and the board was pretty clogged up with creatures thanks to me (playing Kaalia) and another playing Mayael. I was at 35 life and our Zedruu player cast Insurrection swinging exactly 35 damage at me.
With 5 mana open, I was able to tutor out and cast Path to Exile on a Terra Stomper with a +1/+1 counter on it, leaving me at 9 life.
That was an insane save. Awesome decklist, and great find in Night Dealings.
the problem with your interpretation of twilight shepherd Gaka, is that it is assuming that non-permanent cards are in fact on the battlefield. Twilight Shepherd will return Enchantments, Creatures, Artifacts and Lands. But nothing else beyond those cards, unless the spell card in question has a property in its description that allows it to mimic one of the aforementioned permanent types.
Private Mod Note
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Brings back the dragon, which removes all of your stuff from play. Tap your lands to generate mana.
The dragon's entering effect also happens to remove the Enchantment, which, when that enchantment leaves play, forces the player to sacrifice the dragon.
So your dragon is dead, and your stuff comes back in. Tap for mana, burn with a Hellkite, poke with a Pirahna Marsh.
Hey look, the enchantment is back. I suppose i'll target Worldgorger again to start the loop all over.
To stop the loop, simply reanimate something else.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Updated the OP with a completely new decklist and direction for the deck. I'm rather unexperienced with this kind of build, so any suggestions would be very welcome.
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I recently built Vish Kal token stax, and it was an interesting experience since I've never played anything like stax before that. However, I didn't quite fully commit to stax (as evidenced by my 7-drop commander), and the deck ended up feeling lacking. I couldn't capitalize fully on the disruption my stax pieces created, and I usually lost to whoever was playing green since they could easily outramp my disruption. The problem was that I didn't want to play purposeful mass land destruction, because that would keep me from playing my expensive commander and other high-end cards.
Since Kaalia automatically faces a ton of hate as a commander just for what she can do, I decided to try a different strategy that might afford me a more resilient gameplan that isn't always decided on turn 3 or 4. In short, I combined Vish Kal with Kaalia, and this is the result:
1 Kaalia of the Vast
Creatures (19)
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Academy Rector
1 Anger
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Keldon Firebombers
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Angel of Despair
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Dragon Mage
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Reya Dawnbringer
Planeswalkers (5)
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Enchantments (13)
1 Bloodchief Ascension
1 Land Tax
1 Bitterblossom
1 Aura of Silence
1 Blood Moon
1 Contamination
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Stranglehold
1 Descent into Madness
1 Painful Quandary
1 Martyr's Bond
1 Grave Betrayal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Chromatic Star
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sol Ring
1 Terrarion
1 Boros Signet
1 Defense Grid
1 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Scroll Rack
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Druidic Satchel
1 Tangle Wire
1 Smokestack
1 Trading Post
Instants (1)
1 Faith's Reward
Sorceries (7)
1 Faithless Looting
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vindicate
1 Unburial Rites
1 Catastrophe
1 Terminus
1 Devastation
Lands (36)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Command Tower
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Fetid Heath
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Godless Shrine
1 Graven Cairns
1 High Market
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Kher Keep
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mistveil Plains
3 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
Chromatic Lantern for Sphere of the Suns (much better at color fixing and especially helpful when Blood Moon is in play))
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The entire premise of this deck is to land a turn 2 mana rock, turn 3 Kaalia, and start dropping huge bombs from turn 4 on. If the deck seems very all-in on that plan, that's because, well, it is.
1 Kaalia of the Vast
Creatures (27)
1 Mother of Runes
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Anger
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Mad Prophet
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Karmic Guide
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Hoard-Smelter Dragon
1 Moonveil Dragon
1 Reaper from the Abyss
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Angel of Despair
1 Balefire Dragon
1 Bladewing the Risen
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Vampiric Dragon
1 Reya Dawnbringer
Enchantments (6)
1 Land Tax
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Necromancy
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sneak Attack
1 True Conviction
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Boros Signet
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Defense Grid
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sphere of the Suns
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Quicksilver Amulet
Instants (9)
1 Entomb
1 Faith's Shield
1 Pyroblast
1 Rebuff the Wicked
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Chaos Warp
1 Orim's Thunder
1 Return to Dust
1 Wild Ricochet
Sorceries (8)
1 Faithless Looting
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vindicate
1 Increasing Ambition
1 Unburial Rites
1 Catastrophe
1 Disaster Radius
1 Molten Disaster
Lands (36)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Command Tower
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Fetid Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Graven Cairns
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Homeward Path
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mistveil Plains
3 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Spinerock Knoll
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Moat for Molten Disaster (hey, I can dream...)
Scrubland for Plains
A few suggestions I found from doing my searches:
Twilight Shepherd - Casting an Orim's Thunder or what have you precombat and sneaking this in is decent, and it's also reasonable if someone sweeps your board during combat. It's not a windmill slam, but it seems like a reasonable card to consider.
Rakdos the Defiler - This one seems pretty obvious
Defiler of Souls - With a reasonable amount of graveyard recursion for your monocoloured creatures, this will be decent to slap down.
Dragon Mage - This card seems like a beating, especially with ways to get creatures back from the graveyard.
Thunder Dragon - Self-explanatory
Bogardan Hellkite - See above
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon - Worth considering.
And obviously the new lightning greaves in M12.
Hope I helped, you definitely gave me some good ideas for my deck
I disagree on Skittles' possible inclusion. He doesn't seem very good unless you can one shot people with him.
Rakdos the Defiler: It's good the one time you attack with it off Kaalia, and then it's a 7/6 blocker. I'd rather have things that can keep attacking, and also it's a little too "gimmicky" for my tastes.
Defiler of Souls: I tend to only have 2-4 creatures out at any given time, and enough of mine are monocolored I don't want to be having to sacrifice them.
Dragon Mage: The thing about Kaalia is that if an opponent can answer her before she attacks, she will get answered. I don't want to make it any easier kill her before my second chance to attack with her by giving my opponents 14/21 new cards.
Thunder Dragon: I don't have any, but if I can pick it up it seems reasonable to test. Oros, the Avenger seems like a reasonable option too. The problem is more that I'd rather be able to kill fliers that can block my creatures than creatures that can't.
Bogardan Hellkite: It's now in the deck.
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: I considered that, but if it takes 3 attacks to kill and if it dies before it does that than it doesn't help my other noninfect creatures at all.
Hall of the Bandit Lord: I need to get one, there are few enough ways to cast Kaalia on turn 3 AND give her haste that the drawback might not be too bad.
Since you are already running both Karmic Guide and Kiki-Jiki, maybe something you should be considering is the possibility of running Reveillark granted you would have to hard cast it. However from what I can tell he has a brutal combo with both Kiki-Jiki and Karmic Guide. Plus worst comes to worst he can recur your General
I am not a huge fan of either Ajani's, Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Sorin in this deck. However Liliana Vess is a great addition to this deck for obvious reasons.
Phyrexian Reclamation is something I myself hadn't actually considered as it allows you to reuse cards that have died with your General. The downfall to the card is the life point cost that is entailed with using it. I personally prefer Death Denied, which while not recurable, is definitely just as useful for this purpose and in someways cheaper.
Reconnaissance is a superb way to protect the General that I had not seen before. It ironically also has the side effect of protecting Sun Titan if you are running it. Dolmen Gate is another excellent way to protect ones General that I had not considered. I am surprised you are running only the sword that protects against 2/3rds of your deck. If someone were to cast Acquire on you while that is still in your deck they could significantly hurt your deck's strategy by gaining control of that card.
I am not a huge fan of Oblation. I much prefer Condemn. While Oblation has the benefit of hitting any permanent, it has the drawback of shuffling it into the opponents library, and then letting them draw two cards followed by a third on their next turn giving them a much better chance of getting the card you shuffled back in back than would be the case off of a condemn. The only advantage I Can see with Oblation over Condemn is if you are dealing frequently with Generals who turn into enchantments or don't attack regularly.
Personally I think the deck in the OP needs more and better tutors than it currently has, but thats just me. I also think Vindicate is sub par removal. While it does hit just about anything in the format, it sends them to the graveyard, which there is simply better places in WRB that we can be sending cards to with our removal (such as the bottom of the library, and the exiled zone for example).
And is Disaster Radius really the best mass removal option to be running? Wouldn't something like Hallowed Burial or Decree of Pain be better?
==============
As for other people's suggestions.
Twilight Shepherd is probably one of the weaker suggestions alot of people seem interested in making for the purpose of enhancing Kaalia decks. I personally don't run Twilight Shepherd in my Kaalia deck, preferring instead to run the Karmic Guide + Adarkar Valkyrie combo in order to get permanents back from the graveyard primarily.
Rakdos the Defiler is one of those Build Around Me cards. And while he can be potentially good, he kind of requires some investment to make himself exceptional. However if you are willing to put the effort into making him exceptional he becomes particularly good at what he is designed to do. Though I personally don't mind the idea of having a 7/6 blocker, I will probably be cutting him myself pending testing with the guy.
One has to keep in mind that with Dragon Mage, you aren't just giving opponents new cards, you are getting rid of their old cards. Thereby preventing them from answering Kaalia or any of your current creatures with their old cards. This makes protecting her somewhat easier from that regard, but also somewhat difficult from the perspective that you don't really know what the new cards are going to be.
Personally I don't really find Bogardan Hellkite and Thunder Dragon to be particularly useful. I prefer creatures such as Mordant Dragon who can potentially kill pesky flyers.
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just as a cross comparison here is a link to my Kaalia deck thread in case you are curious where I am coming from as far as a deck designer.
Oh and something you may or may not wish to consider as far as designing your Kaalia deck. Now that Worldgorger Dragon is no longer banned in EDH, you may want to consider the possibility of putting in an Infinite Worldgorger Combo with which to abuse the Dragon. I have personally decided against it as the risk of having it removed at instant speed mid combo is simply not worth the advantages that it grants towards winning the game (same risks as having a Realm Razer removed at Instant Speed prior to having it's Enters the Battlefield effect resolve).
Ah, I misread the card, that's much worse than I thought. Consider it scrapped
I agree, but I think it depends on how many people you're playing with. In a 3-4 player game, it might be worth playing to shut someone out of the game, and attacking won't be the end of the world if you can guarantee you'll hit someone and screw them over. It's much better if you run that guy in the precon (can't think of the name) that bounces a red creature every turn, makes it a much more potent threat.
Fair enough. As I said, most of these were just suggestions to consider in case people hadn't seen/thought of them.
Well, the way I see it with Dragon Mage is that you can potentially make your opponents pitch cards they've tutored up, making them pitch combo pieces or what have you, and filling up your own hand in the process. Filling up your hand with more gas to sneak in off Kaalia is never a bad thing, especially when you have a lot of graveyard recursion to get even more benefit out of its ability.
When playing the precon, I found I was really wanting for a wheel of fortune style effect to refill my hand when it didn't have enough gas; granted, there's a lot of bad cards in the precon version you just don't want in the first place, but that's what I got from playing it.
True enough, but it's nice to have a fallout on a stick against goblin/token/elf EDH decks.
Also true; was just a suggestion, not really a "this will be a good card" sort of thing.
Have you considered Enlightened Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mortify (This answers two problematic card types, it doe not get enough love), Condemn, Path to Exile? Each offers solutions that your Sunforger can also fetch. I also use Wild Ricochet, but that is useless sometimes.
Also, you may wish to cut down the non-dragons/angels etc.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
Reveillark: Including Kaalia, I have 7 targets. While it is indeed very good with Kiki-Jiki and Karmic Guide, it just doesn't do enough otherwise to justify inclusion over something Kaalia can play.
Planeswalkers: Liliana is definitely the best. I'm down to just Ajani besides her, since he's decent removal. I am considering Sorin over him, just as a way to punch through heavy lifegain that might otherwise give me trouble. Edit: I've decided to try Debtors' Knell over Ajani because Ajani is pretty weak to just play for removal and my curve is already shot to hell lol.
Death Denied: I tried it, but the one-shot nature just didn't feel like enough. I'd rather be able to cherry-pick my graveyard repeatedly whenever I need to than take a turn to return everything once.
Acquire and SoLaS: No one runs Acquire in my meta, so that's not an issue. I could see how that could be bad, but SoLaS is repeatable recursion with a side of evasion, which is something this deck very much wants.
Condemn vs Oblation: I like not being restricted to attackers, and I've found that the 2 cards are usually well worth an instant-speed tuck-Vindicate. If I get another Chaos Warp, that'll probably be going in the deck too.
Tutors: I have enough redundancy in my mana rocks and my Kaalia targets that I'd rather fit in more fun angels and dragons than tutors. I'm okay with the inconsistency fewer tutors brings in this deck.
Vindicate: I like being able to remove anything, so I'm okay with running one sorcery-speed removal spell given how versatile it is.
Disaster Radius: I'm operating under the idea that my creatures will generally be better than my opponents', so the two wrath effects I run are ones that won't affect my creatures. Disaster Radius is almost always just a Plague Wind for 2 less in this deck.
Dragon Mage: Yes, he makes them discard any answers they're currently holding, but if I'm at the point where I'm attacking with Kaalia to drop the Dragon Mage, in my playgroup that's pretty solid evidence that they aren't holding any removal regardless.
Mordant Dragon: Given that he needs to hit your opponent, I would think he'd be less reliable for killing fliers than Bogardan Hellkite, which is direct damage. I also can abuse the Hellkite much more easily with Kiki-Jiki or Erratic Portal.
Worldgorger Dragon: Both I and my group frown on instant-win combos, so I don't want to run that.
Edit: @MiffedMoogle:
I'm not running Sunforger; I have too few targets as you said. I'm also running only 5 non-angel/dragon creatures, and they're all too good to cut.
Edit2: @Moruk:
I've found with this build that I can usually find creatures for Kaalia without resorting to giving my opponents full new hands just to draw some cards myself. It's really just too dangerous to give my opponents so many cards in my meta.
On your non-tribal targets. How have you found Mother of Runes? It seems quite underpowered to me, as does Sun Titan in a deck like this. What are you hoping to return with Sun Titan? Lands and some utility mana rocks and maybe occasionally enchantments and lands seems rather weak for what you can do.
You said your playgroup frowns on combos, but have you considered Sword of Feast and Famine, over Light and Shadow? It interacts well with Hellkite Charger (as in wins you the game) and works well for a second main phase of action.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
Mother of Runes is amazing. If I can drop her before Kaalia she greatly increases the chance that Kaalia will live to swing. Even later in the game, she allows me to attack Kaalia into superior flying forces or continue to protect her from spot removal.
For Sun Titan, just being able to return a land every turn is still quite good in a nongreen deck, especially one with so high a curve as this deck has. It also recurs Lightning Greaves, which alone is almost reason enough to run it. I added it after all of my games with the deck, but I can't remember any point in any game after turn 4 or so that I didn't have targets for it to return if I had had it.
I did consider Sword of Feast and Famine, but the way I see it, Kaalia already has something pretty close built-in. Being able to drop a free dragon or angel before casting something else is already very strong, and I usually can't fill my hand so quickly as to really need the extra SoFaF effect. Also, there is the combo with Hellkite Charger which I'd rather avoid.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
That is rough, give her time! I think she is really good and like Mayael forces people to react to you. She is also still one of best (best imo), albeit out of only three generals in her colours. 1v1 you're probably right, but multiplayer is also always different in the outcome.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
As for multiplayer, it usually requires some politics to properly wield her. The trick is to avoid attacking someone the moment it becomes clear they could answer Kaalia, and make it very obvious that you're doing so. They'll probably be happy to let you take down your mutual opponents' lifetotals as long as you don't touch them. Sooner or later, they'll use their removal elsewhere since Kaalia seemingly isn't a threat to them, or you'll find protection for her, and then you can go back to hitting them too. Not overextending is key. Usually just 1 to 2 angels or dragons are all it takes to draw out a wrath, and with 22 of them in the deck, plus a fair amount of recursion, you should have more threats than your opponents have sweepers.
about how many would you guys run? i mean the big creatures that kaalia drops?
RBUThraximundarUBRRUNiv-Mizzet, the FiremindUR
BWGhost Council of OrzhovaWBWUBRGChild of AlaraGRBUW
WBRKaalia of the VastRBWGBSapling of ColfenorGB
@zilant: I have 22 creatures that Kaalia can drop, and that generally seems to be working for me. Night Dealings usually also counts as at least one more, thanks to the interaction I note in the OP. Things that recur creatures to your hand like Phyrexian Reclamation also help, since it's quite likely that not everything you drop will live.
It was a 4-player Free-for-all and the board was pretty clogged up with creatures thanks to me (playing Kaalia) and another playing Mayael. I was at 35 life and our Zedruu player cast Insurrection swinging exactly 35 damage at me.
With 5 mana open, I was able to tutor out and cast Path to Exile on a Terra Stomper with a +1/+1 counter on it, leaving me at 9 life.
That was an insane save. Awesome decklist, and great find in Night Dealings.
The ability still triggers for spells. It says nothing about permanents or anything else, just "cards" ...unless Orim's Chant isn't actually a card?
I like Night Dealings. A repeatable tutor effect seems fairly powerful with a general that tends to do damage anyways. I may try it.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Being the petty fool i am - Planeswalkers.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
yes you have a point, Planeswalkers would be included with the stuff that card would bring back as well.
Brings back the dragon, which removes all of your stuff from play. Tap your lands to generate mana.
The dragon's entering effect also happens to remove the Enchantment, which, when that enchantment leaves play, forces the player to sacrifice the dragon.
So your dragon is dead, and your stuff comes back in. Tap for mana, burn with a Hellkite, poke with a Pirahna Marsh.
Hey look, the enchantment is back. I suppose i'll target Worldgorger again to start the loop all over.
To stop the loop, simply reanimate something else.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary