So I've been asked by a few members to on here to share my ideas on Jor Kadeen. I think I must preface this decklist with a few points: no, I don't think Jor Kadeen is the savior of Boros; no, I do not claim that this is the most optimal direction to take this general in; but yes, I do believe that he is the best Boros general, even over Brion.
What are the cornerstones of Jor Kadeen?
Our rather under-costed friend here is HUGE @ 5 mana for, virtually always, an 8/4. Not only that, but he makes EVERYONE huge with him. Of course, the price to pay is metalcraft, which is the first and foremost foundation of the deck. We will cheat in every way possible - running artifact lands, manlands that turn into artifacts, tons and tons of mana rocks. The second cornerstone, which comfortably aids the first goal, is the inclusion of large amounts of equipment. The secret is not to run too many overpowering and expensive equipment, but rather ones that offer protection, card advantage, and huge life swings. Those are the criteria for equipment that should enter this deck. The third cornerstone is the trickiest part of the deck - how will we turn Boros, the most underwhelming color combination in EDH, into a viable contender against a table full of brokenness? The answer is not so simple, but also one I will offer suggestions up for discussion.
Break down the deck for me
So I'm usually against going creature-heavy decks, but it's hard for this deck to avoid it. This choice becomes a double positive here: Jor Kadeen's ability not only affects himself but every other creature on your board AND Boros offers some of the best creature-based disruption available. The hardest part is balancing this with other disruption elements in the deck, such as Armageddons. In the end, I've opted to lean MORE towards creatures, but not at an overwhelming amount. I've tried to keep the curve low and the functions relevant, allowing you to take advantage of them early on to stunt your opponents or build up protection for Jor Kadeen or to take instant advantage of the +3/+0 pump. What you have, then, is a deck that quickly powers out artifacts in the first few turns, lays down disruptive weenies, punches faces with Jor Kadeen and equipment, and then tries to close out the game with either geddons or at least enough quick damage granted from our haste-enablers.
What are the risks involved?
By no means will this deck fail without Jor Kadeen. You must realize this. We are still an efficient deck with lots of disruptive creatures and powerful equipment. That said, general tucking is the first thing you will see. I've included a few defensive spells (that'll probably be ditched later on), but the honest truth is that it's just something you're going to have to deal with. Boros is ill-equipped (no pun intended) against cards like Hallowed Burial, and there WILL be disappointing games where your offense is totally obliterated. Secondly, we run off metalcraft. Beware of cards as small as Krosan Grip, as suffocating as Return to Dust, and as deadly as Austere Command. As a rule of thumb, try not to severely overextend - allow the equipment to bring you the card advantage. Unfortunately, it's extremely hard to evade these issues as Boros, so we'll just have to make do with what we have.
With that all said, let's take a look at what I have so far.
Ok, so let's examine further! The section below is outdated - please read entire thread for more up to date information
Equipment
I've organized the equipment by function. The first four are for straight up card advantage. The Sunforger package was included here, as I believe the card to be one of the saving graces of Boros. It's been kept to a minimum, but at least the options are still there. The next three pieces of equipment are for protection, and the last set is for huge life swings. You may laugh, but Quietus Spike is EXTREMELY deadly in these types of decks, allowing you to potentially 1-shot players. Grafted Exoskeleton makes Jor Kadeen a 1-shot monster.
Creatures
There are a few subtypes of creatures here, and they all provide important functions for the deck. Without going into excruciating detail, I hope you can understand what I am going for here. You've got protection for Jor Kadeen with Mother of Runes and Eight-and-a-Half Tails; guys that gum up the game, like Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Magus of the Moon, and Hokori, Dust Drinker; equipment facilitators, like Puresteel Paladin and Stoneforge Mystic; guys that can take instant advantage of equipment and Jor Kadeen, like Mirran Crusader; removal with FTK and heretic; guys that make more guys, like Hero of Bladehold; and most importantly, Leonin Abunas and Indomitable Archangel - protection for your metalcraft. You've got cheap, efficient creatures that are benefited from Jor Kadeen, help slow the game down, and facilitate the deck while still being able to mount an offense.
Land Destruction
Perhaps the only true way for this color combo to be viable is by issuing several threats in the first few turns, drop a geddon, and break parity by running tons of artifacts. I haven't gone overboard on the geddons, because it is a very all-in strategy. Instead, we have the cheapest geddons, Catastrophe, which acts as a backup wrath, moon effects, and, my favorite, Winter Orb effects. In this way we can severely slow down opposition while still mounting our cheap offense.
Creature Generators & Boosts
These are the trump cards of the deck. When everything goes wrong and you get burnt by a mass-removal spell, they're probably going to leave you alone for a while. I always try to find cards that will allow my decks to turn the tables, and I have definitely seen haste, as well as a table full of pumped tokens, instantly kill entire tables. Imagine if you managed to have both! It helps that both Decree of Justice and White Sun's Zenith are instant speed, so the surprise attack can be EXTREMELY deadly, especially with Jor Kadeen's +3/+0.
Utility Spells & Deck Facilitators
I don't think much has to be said here. These cards were mostly included as a way to improve Sunforger, but they might be cut in the long run because they just do not help with the deck's strategy, which is virtually pure offense and taxation.
Acceleration & Lands
As stated before, we have tons of ways to enter metalcraft and break parity with our land destruction. You might question the low land count, but we are an extremely fast deck with an extremely low curve. Explosive draws are more important than hitting your fourth or fifth land drop! Try this out sometime - I've had extreme success running less lands and more accelerants, especially in multiplayer where you can quickly drop your bombs and end the game.
So now that I've covered the whole deck, there are three different directions we can push the deck in to make it more efficient.
More Creatures
Creatures are, without a doubt, the spine of this deck. If we can replace the Sunforger toolbox with more disruption, I'm all for it. I'm talking about guys like Boros Swiftblade, Hoard-Smelter Dragon, Inferno Titan, and the likes to really turn the heat on. Unfortunately, this strategy is still vulnerable to wrath effects and may depend on your metagame.
More Land Destruction
Adding more geddons will probably make this deck more consistent in its win ratio. I think that the number of LD effects is comfortable right now, but you may want to add Ruination or Decree of Annihilation, depending on the meta.
More Aggression
This might be the wrong subsection title, but there are a few cards in red that allow you to really push for the win. I'm talking about Aggravated Assault and Savage Beating type cards, which in conjunction with Sword of Feast and Famine, can wreak all sorts of havoc. This falls into a more combo-ish strategy, and relies more on gimmicks. It might be what the color combo needs to win, so I find it hard to dismiss this kind of approach.
05.22.11
-Mirran Crusader
-Hero of Bladehold
-Ghostway
-Orim’s Thunder
-Wild Ricochet
-Sunforger
-Fervor
-Quietus Spike
-Swords to Plowshares
-In the Web of War
+Loxodon Gatekeeper
+Devoted Caretaker
+Phyrexian Revoker
+Duplicant
+Planar Guide
+Ethersworn Canonist
+Oxidda Scrapmelter
+Parallax Wave
+Boom // Bust
+Decree of Annihilation
+Hall of the Bandit Lord
Recently, I have become really gravitated towards having lots of haste outlets for an aggro deck I might build. I've actually gone out of my way to run cards like Strider Harness in mono green decks just because of the haste! Haste is quite possibly one of the best abilities you can have for an aggro deck like this; if a sweeper or removal spell of some kind goes off, you can immediately get right back to beating someone down when you recast Jor Kadeen or play random creature X.
You have most of the common haste outlets covered, but the big omission I see is Obsidian Battle-Axe. Jor Kadeen is a Human Warrior, so he obviously gets the free equip. This will effectively turn Jor Kadeen into a 7/5 first striker with haste. There are very, very, VERY few creatures in Magic that can get into a slugfest with Jor Kadeen once he gets to 7 or more power. The power boost is mainly the bonus though. The haste is where it's all at.
I like the card a lot better than Fervor. Fervor does have the advantage though of being an enchantment (since artifacts are usually easier to blow up) and affecting all your guys, but Obsidian Battle-Axe gives you an extra touch of power and powers up metalcraft easier.
I'm going to suggest right now that you play Hoarding Dragon and Glory. With grafted wargear these cards are just insane, and I've won way too many games on the back of glory's protection. People never want them dead so they are also great things to just throw equipment on and smash face with.
EDIT: also why not run Urabrask the Hidden? Seem's awesome in a deck like this
Your creature package is very solid and full of value. SO nice to see some love for Viashino Heretic. That guy is a house, especially when you slap the boots on him.
Now for the big question: if your deck's mana curve is so low, why do you have 20+ mana rocks? You must topdeck them quite often and I bet it sucks to do so. I would seriously consider cutting at least 5, maybe 10 of them. Mana should not make up more than half your deck with a small curve like yours, no matter how badly you want metalcraft. There are other ways to get it as I will discuss below.
Play some artifact cards that kick some butt instead of a few of those mana rocks. Thopter Assembly and Pentavus give you an army of flying 4/1s that guarantee you metalcraft. They are insane with Jor Kadeen. Darksteel Forge makes it impossible for you to lose metalcraft unless it's exiled.
You need Land Tax! It combos with Scroll Rack to draw you three cards once per turn. That draw engine is just bananas in Boros.
You forgot Mistveil Plains in your Sunforger package. It lets you reuse your Sunforger targets! Definitely cut a Plains for it.
If you like having fun with equipments, Leonin Shikari lets you equip at instant speed. Seems good with Greaves, no?
I think you yourself should be running Austere Command. I truly believe it is the best white wrath as you will almost always come out ahead when playing it.
Savage Beating is no gimmick, my friend. That card is the real deal. You will just smoke players out of nowhere with 4x the combat damage. That guy with 100 life? Dead. Put it in here in place of a mana rock. And if you're happy with that, Insurrection fills the same role in taking away all your opponent's blockers for the alpha strike. I have never cast Insurrection without killing a player and I plan to continue the shenanigans until people stop playing Genesis Wave :rofl:.
One more ace up your sleeve as an insta-win: Open the Vaults. Yeah. You're pretty much going to win when you cast that card after someone sweeps the board of artifacts.
Another really good land you missed is Kor Haven. Since you're doing so much attacking, you will be open for counterattacks quite often. Kor Haven really helps take the pressure off. Cut a basic of your choosing (or a mana rock) for it and you won't look back.
Tempo mentioned Urabrask, the Hidden. I think he is a fine utility creature for the deck, keeping the table clear of untapped blockers so Jor Kadeen can come smashing in for 8. Again, you have like a billion mana rocks.
The foundation of this deck is very solid. Just a few minor changes here and I think you can really take it to the next level. Good luck!
Recently, I have become really gravitated towards having lots of haste outlets for an aggro deck I might build. I've actually gone out of my way to run cards like Strider Harness in mono green decks just because of the haste! Haste is quite possibly one of the best abilities you can have for an aggro deck like this; if a sweeper or removal spell of some kind goes off, you can immediately get right back to beating someone down when you recast Jor Kadeen or play random creature X.
You have most of the common haste outlets covered, but the big omission I see is Obsidian Battle-Axe. Jor Kadeen is a Human Warrior, so he obviously gets the free equip. This will effectively turn Jor Kadeen into a 7/5 first striker with haste. There are very, very, VERY few creatures in Magic that can get into a slugfest with Jor Kadeen once he gets to 7 or more power. The power boost is mainly the bonus though. The haste is where it's all at.
I like the card a lot better than Fervor. Fervor does have the advantage though of being an enchantment (since artifacts are usually easier to blow up) and affecting all your guys, but Obsidian Battle-Axe gives you an extra touch of power and powers up metalcraft easier.
I agree that haste is amazing, but I don't want to put ALL the focus on Jor Kadeen. Granted being able to attack with him instantly the turn he comes out is great, I don't think that the axe is good enough in any other situation since it provides such a small offensive bonus for its equip cost. At least Fervor allows all of my creatures to become hasted, and is much more valuable here. I could see it being better if I up my creature curve, but these little weenies I have just won't gain enough from it IMO. Since I am cutting a few rocks, I MIGHT consider it, but the fact that it basically only helps 3 creatures in this deck is kind of a bummer to me.
I'm going to suggest right now that you play Hoarding Dragon and Glory. With grafted wargear these cards are just insane, and I've won way too many games on the back of glory's protection. People never want them dead so they are also great things to just throw equipment on and smash face with.
EDIT: also why not run Urabrask the Hidden? Seem's awesome in a deck like this
I really like Glory and Urabrask here. I'm not 100% sold on Hoarding Dragon, as keeping creatures like that around isn't that big of a deal for me. I was trying to think of which artifact I'd want to tutor up that'd make killing him TRULY not worth it for my opponents, and I just couldn't come up with one. They'd still gladly kill Jor Kadeen and the dragon with a wrath. These other two are just amazing though - can't believe I skipped over them.
Your creature package is very solid and full of value. SO nice to see some love for Viashino Heretic. That guy is a house, especially when you slap the boots on him.
Now for the big question: if your deck's mana curve is so low, why do you have 20+ mana rocks? You must topdeck them quite often and I bet it sucks to do so. I would seriously consider cutting at least 5, maybe 10 of them. Mana should not make up more than half your deck with a small curve like yours, no matter how badly you want metalcraft. There are other ways to get it as I will discuss below.
Play some artifact cards that kick some butt instead of a few of those mana rocks. Thopter Assembly and Pentavus give you an army of flying 4/1s that guarantee you metalcraft. They are insane with Jor Kadeen. Darksteel Forge makes it impossible for you to lose metalcraft unless it's exiled.
You need Land Tax! It combos with Scroll Rack to draw you three cards once per turn. That draw engine is just bananas in Boros.
You forgot Mistveil Plains in your Sunforger package. It lets you reuse your Sunforger targets! Definitely cut a Plains for it.
If you like having fun with equipments, Leonin Shikari lets you equip at instant speed. Seems good with Greaves, no?
I think you yourself should be running Austere Command. I truly believe it is the best white wrath as you will almost always come out ahead when playing it.
Savage Beating is no gimmick, my friend. That card is the real deal. You will just smoke players out of nowhere with 4x the combat damage. That guy with 100 life? Dead. Put it in here in place of a mana rock. And if you're happy with that, Insurrection fills the same role in taking away all your opponent's blockers for the alpha strike. I have never cast Insurrection without killing a player and I plan to continue the shenanigans until people stop playing Genesis Wave :rofl:.
One more ace up your sleeve as an insta-win: Open the Vaults. Yeah. You're pretty much going to win when you cast that card after someone sweeps the board of artifacts.
Another really good land you missed is Kor Haven. Since you're doing so much attacking, you will be open for counterattacks quite often. Kor Haven really helps take the pressure off. Cut a basic of your choosing (or a mana rock) for it and you won't look back.
Tempo mentioned Urabrask, the Hidden. I think he is a fine utility creature for the deck, keeping the table clear of untapped blockers so Jor Kadeen can come smashing in for 8. Again, you have like a billion mana rocks.
The foundation of this deck is very solid. Just a few minor changes here and I think you can really take it to the next level. Good luck!
Great suggestions, thanks!
@Rocks
These are what allow the deck to be aggressive. If you play at the same pace as the other control decks, you're going to fall behind. I've started to utilize this strategy in all of my EDH decks, and will not drop below 15 mana accelerants. Granted this deck doesn't have green, I still won't drop below ~18-ish rocks. Topdecking doesn't really matter when the point of rocks is to really speed out faster than your opponents then break parity by playing a Winter Orb effect, geddon, or moon effect. I can see cutting a few of the bad ones, but for the most part, this strategy has always been effective for me and I'm not sure if I want to give it up. I'd probably cut a few of the slower ones, add Land Tax like suggested, and add in a few more lands to offset the loss of mana (note that I am running 33 lands, so I can't afford to cut too many mana sources)
@Suggested Cards
I'm really liking Savage Beating and Mistveil Plains. I think they can come into the deck without argument. I'm not sure about Pentavus - it's really slow and mana intensive. Thopter Assembly might be okay, but you literally have to wait till turn 3 to attack with it, which gives my opponents more than enough time to do something about it. I'm not 100% sure on Leonin Shikari either. I really think it's too cute, as it is only a mild defensive option against a single type of removal, and she requires you to have a defensive equipment already to be good. I think I'd rather spend my few precious spots on the more brutal cards mentioned above.
Overall, very, very impressive suggestions. I'm usually shaking my head at what people have to say about this archetype, but this has made me very happy
Do U think U have room for Cloudgoat Ranger and Siege-Gang Commander? I think creatures that bring little guys along fits very well with the deck.
Also, i like Knight of the White Orchid in my Brion deck. Along with Land Tax, I would always opt to draw first jus to get either to trigger. But that's because my deck is more control-ish.
I also have Anger in my list jus so i can dump it in my bin when i draw 1st.
Its a good card, its only downside is that it is expensive to play and isnt really a threat in its own. Considering it will take an entire turn to drop into play and without a board presence it does little I wouldn't say it is a bad card but its mana cost is a draw back.
Private Mod Note
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Its a good card, its only downside is that it is expensive to play and isnt really a threat in its own. Considering it will take an entire turn to drop into play and without a board presence it does little I wouldn't say it is a bad card but its mana cost is a draw back.
this is true, though have you seen all the manafacts he has? I mean if he cant afford 7 colorless mana something BAD is happening.
I absolutely agree that he should be able to hit 7 mana fairly easily. I think it could be a good card to look into but I don't think its an absolute add. Good card though.
EDIT: Honestly though when looking at an expensive artifact like this I sort of think that's almost enough mana for Darksteel Forge. I still think that SuperSonik was right in suggesting this card. I just look at metalcraft as a setup 3+ for 1 artifact wrath. The forge is so damn scary when it resolves.
Do U think U have room for Cloudgoat Ranger and Siege-Gang Commander? I think creatures that bring little guys along fits very well with the deck.
Also, i like Knight of the White Orchid in my Brion deck. Along with Land Tax, I would always opt to draw first jus to get either to trigger. But that's because my deck is more control-ish.
I also have Anger in my list jus so i can dump it in my bin when i draw 1st.
You know what, all those creatures have come and gone through my idea pool. The problem with all of the above is that they do not provide a large enough impact on the game for me to really warrant their inclusion. All the creatures in this list provide something on TOP of being bodies - either protection or disruption or card advantage. It's true that cards such as Siege-Gang Commander can make Jor Kadeen more deadly, but by itself it offers too little, especially if something happens to Jor Kadeen. Thus, I've pretty much opted to not run massive amounts of token producers, as these attack phases can be seen from a mile away and will more than most likely be dealt with rather quickly. I would honestly rather run either of the Elspeths, because they do not die to the same things Jor Kadeen does and can constantly provide bodies to work with (or an evasive bonus for JK himself).
Land Tax made it into the deck already - I can't believe I forgot to add that card originally
I see no gratuitous violence or true conviction. Those cards have been doing wonders in my Jor Kadeen deck.
These cards, while good, have difficulty making the cut. I understand that they can provide the potential to possibly obliterate another player, but I'd rather a more consistent, disruptive deck than one with too many aggressive aids and not enough aggression itself.
Akroma's Memorial does not help the volume of the creatures, which a concern for this deck. It does not amplify the power of the creatures in any significant or relevant way. Sure it makes creatures evasive and more resilient, but that's not what we're looking for here, and certainly not at 7 CMC. I know this goes a bit against what I just said about the Siege-Gang Commander, as that guy (and his friends) provide volume for the deck, but the truth is I need both value AND volume - only the best of the best, and cards that are stand-alone good, can make it in here. There's not as much flex room in a deck that must take every slight advantage possible, because there are virtually no corners to cut.
I absolutely agree that he should be able to hit 7 mana fairly easily. I think it could be a good card to look into but I don't think its an absolute add. Good card though.
EDIT: Honestly though when looking at an expensive artifact like this I sort of think that's almost enough mana for Darksteel Forge. I still think that SuperSonik was right in suggesting this card. I just look at metalcraft as a setup 3+ for 1 artifact wrath. The forge is so damn scary when it resolves.
Darksteel Forge is too high on the curve. Sure I can hit 8 mana, but I don't really care for it if I do. I'd much rather have an LD spell in its place so that I can assure that my opponents can't come back after I've set up my offense. This whole list is built around buying time long enough for you to kill the table, and this is done through the moon effects, orb effects, and geddons. So in the end, it honestly just does not do enough for the deck to warrant a slot.
What the deck truly needs more of, now, is highly disruptive creatures and possibly more land destruction. Let me post some of the creatures that I think have potential to make it in here:
These are the type of cards I'm looking for - ones that carry value, something that we know Boros has very little of. The gems of the deck, like Keldon Firebombers and Hokori, Dust Drinker have already been found and put into the list. Now the question is: what have I missed?
Also, another point on the mana rocks...
I think you guys are over and under-estimating several things. First off, running around ~15-20 mana rocks, I still consistently only see about ~2-4 from early to mid game, which is perfectly ideal. It's not like I always see an overwhelming number of rocks - the reason the number is so high is because I want the density for metalcraft, the consistency for breaking parity with geddons, and the speed to put on an early aggression. You guys are making it sound like I have way too much mana for my own good, but the reality is that I'm running just as few mana sources as the next deck - I'm at 51, including all rocks. I honestly can't see Jor Kadeen staying an 8/4 with less than 30 artifacts in your deck. It just isn't possible. And even if it is, it won't be comfortably so. There's literally no downside to running heavy rocks in Boros, as you're not giving up slots for them, you're replacing land slots with them. In return you directly boost the two most important cornerstones of the deck: metalcraft and breaking parity. You can argue that I lose to mass artifact destruction - but so what? Aggro Boros is already a high-risk archetype - now it's just a matter of making the reward great enough to warrant that risk.
Never pictured you as a beatdown Boros player MCR. Anyways this is looking really nice. One thing I've noticed from playing Uril is that you really need a lot of redundancy with LD if you want to have it available on a regular basis because it is very difficult to tutor up with these colors. Decree of Annihilation is great, Impending Disaster is ok and you can fetch it with Enlightened Tutor, Tangle Wire is fantastic and an artifact so you should play it too. Ruination is fine but Static Orb hinders you much more than Winter Orb so I'm not sure if it's good enough. Other options are Thoughts of Ruin (though I suspect you dump your hand too fast) and Tectonic Break. You mana base could be touched up a bit, Flagstones of Trokair, Chrome Mox, Arid Mesa and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion would be great. Your mana rocks should help you avoid Blood Moon effects pretty well so a high nonbasic count shouldn't hurt you too much unless you decide to run Ruination but even then it's not too severe of a drawback since you won't draw Ruination much.
Never pictured you as a beatdown Boros player MCR. Anyways this is looking really nice. One thing I've noticed from playing Uril is that you really need a lot of redundancy with LD if you want to have it available on a regular basis because it is very difficult to tutor up with these colors. Decree of Annihilation is great, Impending Disaster is ok and you can fetch it with Enlightened Tutor, Tangle Wire is fantastic and an artifact so you should play it too. Ruination is fine but Static Orb hinders you much more than Winter Orb so I'm not sure if it's good enough. Other options are Thoughts of Ruin (though I suspect you dump your hand too fast) and Tectonic Break. You mana base could be touched up a bit, Flagstones of Trokair, Chrome Mox, Arid Mesa and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion would be great. Your mana rocks should help you avoid Blood Moon effects pretty well so a high nonbasic count shouldn't hurt you too much unless you decide to run Ruination but even then it's not too severe of a drawback since you won't draw Ruination much.
lol, I never thought so either. Most of the time you'll see me tapping Swamps and Islands :D. BUT, I have a natural affinity for 'prince-like' characters, so I figured I'd build a fun deck (that's turning more cut throat by the minute) as a challenge. Boros is generally dismissed as being an awful deck, but I was hoping to really optimize this list because Jor Kadeen hits hard enough that he can really take advantage of the time bought with LD. No matter how I look at it though, Uril really just seems like a better general for the geddon strategy hahaha. But I've made it a personal mission now to create a fearsome Boros multiplayer deck - any and all help is welcome, especially from you
Great point about the LD. As I was fishing the list, I did indeed feel like I needed more of it. At the time I created the list, I wasn't sure of what points I wanted to emphasize more, so I played it really safe by giving each type of card (ie LD, haste, equipment) a fairly equal number of slots. The more I develop the list competitively though, the more I realize that LD is the only thing that'll keep this deck in contention against the more fearsome color wedges. In the end, I'm probably going to cut a few 'cute' cards, like Ghostway and eventually Sunforger. The more I fish the list, the more I feel like the Sunforger package is really just too fruity and luxurious. If I want pure efficiency, equipment like that isn't going to cut it. I could see Sunforger being a huge asset in a traditional Boros list, but over here, I have better things to be doing with mana than being cute I think.
I feel like the one thing I'm also missing, now, is removal. There's only really one 187 creature in here, FTK, and I feel like I want more. The problem is there really aren't that many more 187 creatures in white or red that are efficient. Any suggestions here? I was about to hop on the creature-tapping bandwagon, but that seems pretty bad. I suppose defaulting to traditional removal is okay too, although I'd much rather have creature variations. But then again, on the flipside of things, not many can block a 8/4 first striker. I'm more concerned with things blocking the rest of my army.
Handling creatures and chump blockers is going to be rough, maybe Parallax Wave? It has a lot of utility and it's an Enlightened Tutor target. I'd also throw in a Boom // Bust to add to the LD, maybe Crucible of Worlds to speed your recovery and Wheel of Fortune since you are going to be dumping your hand pretty quickly.
I'd say try out ajani vengeant for land destruction. He can hold off a tricky attacker or tap land from the get go, and can destroy lands later on. Also theres boom//bust to pick off a land or just destroy all of them.
as a side note, i really like the idea of this deck, just started EDH ( made my first deck today) with agrus kos as general, going to be moving to jor kadeen when i can. Am also making another deck for a friend so we can try out edh, probably going to use borborygmos.
I'd say try out ajani vengeant for land destruction. He can hold off a tricky attacker or tap land from the get go, and can destroy lands later on. Also theres boom//bust to pick off a land or just destroy all of them.
as a side note, i really like the idea of this deck, just started EDH ( made my first deck today) with agrus kos as general, going to be moving to jor kadeen when i can. Am also making another deck for a friend so we can try out edh, probably going to use borborygmos.
I definitely thought about Ajani Vengeant. The problem is that he only keeps a creature tapped if it has already been tapped beforehand - which doesn't really help against defenders. However, the Lightning Helix ability may come in handy, and the LD is always relevant (thought it only affects one player). It's definitely worth considering. Also, let me know what you think of the deck after you play it! I haven't actually run Boros in a real playgroup yet, so I have no idea how well this will do. What I will say is that I've seen Blood Moon, Winter Orb, and Armageddon trash entire tables, and considering that this is alongside another annoying effects like Linvala, and Aven Mindcensor, backed by a fast clock - I can see this deck going somewhere. I just need to adjust the densities according to how well this deck flows. I'll be trying this list out pretty soon at my own LGS.
Also, Donald, I'm usually a big fan of Parallax Wave, but I just don't like it in here. It almost seems too much of an "all-in" type of card, as in I really need to be in a winning position for it to be good, otherwise it's just pretty mediocre. I could see Tangle Wire being decent, but a somewhat dead draw towards the end of the game.
Also, Donald, I'm usually a big fan of Parallax Wave, but I just don't like it in here. It almost seems too much of an "all-in" type of card, as in I really need to be in a winning position for it to be good, otherwise it's just pretty mediocre. I could see Tangle Wire being decent, but a somewhat dead draw towards the end of the game.
Why is Parallax Wave all in? It is an easy 5 for 1 in almost any situation and I would think perhaps just as good if not better if you are behind.
Why is Parallax Wave all in? It is an easy 5 for 1 in almost any situation and I would think perhaps just as good if not better if you are behind.
Basically I'm saying you need to have the kill on the table or the card diminishes in value because the removal is temporary. It doesn't help me if I'm behind because the only reason I'd be behind is if my creatures are no longer on the table. And in that case, I am completely unable to mount any sort of offense, and Parallax Wave as a way to remove blockers for a turn or two, loses its appeal. Now if you're arguing that it'll save me from dying, sure, it does that for a turn or two. But that's not what I'm looking for.
If you're worried about chump blockers and getting the board gummed up, just run Bedlam. I doubt you're going to be holding back blockers very often. Until you get rid of the Sunforger package, you might consider Tithe, to grab Mistveil. It can also help you rebuild post geddon in the odd case that you need to.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Have you considered Keldon Vandals over Manic Vandal? In my opinion Echo dosn't hurt much on utility creatures and the Keldons let you draw right away with Skullclamp. Also 4 power give them much better offensive potential if needed.
Darksteel Ingot comes online the same turn as your diamonds but helps you keep your Metallcraft up much better than those, so I would take one of them out in exchange.
Last: I really don't like Quietus Spike the equipt cost is a bit much and the lifeloss happens after damage is dealt, so it needs one of your few first strikers to be really good. Instead i would put Order/Chaos into your Sunforger package, because it can not only be removal but also set up a deadly strike.
@Keldon Vandals
The echo is NOT worth the cost. This deck always wants to be doing things and can't afford to waste a turn like that.
@Darksteel Ingot
The point of keeping the diamonds is because they're 2CMC versus 3CMC. Since this deck barely has any two-drops, that slot is PERFECT for setting up turn three 4CMC drops.
@Quietus Spike
This is an aggro deck. No other equipment in the format gives you such a momentous life swing, regardless of whether or not the life loss occurs pre or post damage. The truth is, I won't expect to kill most players in one combat phase, but the spike easily turns it into two combat phases. And @ the first strike damage comment, you may or may not have forgotten that our poster boy has first strike, allowing friends to clean up.
@Order/Chaos
I'm going to be cutting the Sunforger package I think, but I do like this card somewhat. You've got me thinking on the unblockable side now, so I'll be doing a lot of exploration there. Thanks!
@Keldon Vandals
The echo is NOT worth the cost. This deck always wants to be doing things and can't afford to waste a turn like that.
@Darksteel Ingot
The point of keeping the diamonds is because they're 2CMC versus 3CMC. Since this deck barely has any two-drops, that slot is PERFECT for setting up turn three 4CMC drops.
@Quietus Spike
This is an aggro deck. No other equipment in the format gives you such a momentous life swing, regardless of whether or not the life loss occurs pre or post damage. The truth is, I won't expect to kill most players in one combat phase, but the spike easily turns it into two combat phases. And @ the first strike damage comment, you may or may not have forgotten that our poster boy has first strike, allowing friends to clean up.
@Order/Chaos
I'm going to be cutting the Sunforger package I think, but I do like this card somewhat. You've got me thinking on the unblockable side now, so I'll be doing a lot of exploration there. Thanks!
Regarding the Quietus Spike, I really like it. Give it to a creature with first or double strike to get in before everything else to cut an opponents life in half, then swing through with the rest who dont have it.
Also, Donald, I'm usually a big fan of Parallax Wave, but I just don't like it in here. It almost seems too much of an "all-in" type of card, as in I really need to be in a winning position for it to be good, otherwise it's just pretty mediocre. I could see Tangle Wire being decent, but a somewhat dead draw towards the end of the game.
I think you're focusing on the remove blockers aspect too much. It can certainly do that but not only does it remove blockers it also protects your creatures from wraths, lets you abuse ETB creatures and you have a tutor for it making it more appealing than an STP or something similar. The flexibility and accessibility of the card are what make it so strong. With Tangle Wire you need to keep in mind that even later in the game you might have recently reset the lands so even then Tangle Wire is still a great topdeck just to slow people down, plus it's an artifact for metalcraft. No matter how you build this deck though I fear it's just going to be a suboptimal Uril deck since you lose access to the broken LD Uril can play (Devastating Dreams/Wildfire/Cataclysm), some really powerful finishers like Terravore and Knight of the Reliquary and your general doesn't have built in protection.
Fountain Watch I know you already have a bunch of those effects but I thought I would mention it anyways.
Flagstones of Trokair I know Donald mentioned it once already but I figure it has to be better than a regular plains in a deck that revolves arround doing mass LD.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Fountain Watch I know you already have a bunch of those effects but I thought I would mention it anyways.
Flagstones of Trokair I know Donald mentioned it once already but I figure it has to be better than a regular plains in a deck that revolves arround doing mass LD.
The problem with Ruel is that his targets are just "okay". I don't really care much for Serra Ascendant or Figure of Destiny. They're good, but I'm looking more for creatures that offer either a disruptive element or protection. If this list were for 1v1, I'd definitely consider it, but seeing as it's MP, they have too small of an effect.
Fountain Watch is good, but it depends on how badly my stuff gets beat up. I don't think it will, so I won't run it yet.
What are the cornerstones of Jor Kadeen?
Our rather under-costed friend here is HUGE @ 5 mana for, virtually always, an 8/4. Not only that, but he makes EVERYONE huge with him. Of course, the price to pay is metalcraft, which is the first and foremost foundation of the deck. We will cheat in every way possible - running artifact lands, manlands that turn into artifacts, tons and tons of mana rocks. The second cornerstone, which comfortably aids the first goal, is the inclusion of large amounts of equipment. The secret is not to run too many overpowering and expensive equipment, but rather ones that offer protection, card advantage, and huge life swings. Those are the criteria for equipment that should enter this deck. The third cornerstone is the trickiest part of the deck - how will we turn Boros, the most underwhelming color combination in EDH, into a viable contender against a table full of brokenness? The answer is not so simple, but also one I will offer suggestions up for discussion.
Break down the deck for me
So I'm usually against going creature-heavy decks, but it's hard for this deck to avoid it. This choice becomes a double positive here: Jor Kadeen's ability not only affects himself but every other creature on your board AND Boros offers some of the best creature-based disruption available. The hardest part is balancing this with other disruption elements in the deck, such as Armageddons. In the end, I've opted to lean MORE towards creatures, but not at an overwhelming amount. I've tried to keep the curve low and the functions relevant, allowing you to take advantage of them early on to stunt your opponents or build up protection for Jor Kadeen or to take instant advantage of the +3/+0 pump. What you have, then, is a deck that quickly powers out artifacts in the first few turns, lays down disruptive weenies, punches faces with Jor Kadeen and equipment, and then tries to close out the game with either geddons or at least enough quick damage granted from our haste-enablers.
What are the risks involved?
By no means will this deck fail without Jor Kadeen. You must realize this. We are still an efficient deck with lots of disruptive creatures and powerful equipment. That said, general tucking is the first thing you will see. I've included a few defensive spells (that'll probably be ditched later on), but the honest truth is that it's just something you're going to have to deal with. Boros is ill-equipped (no pun intended) against cards like Hallowed Burial, and there WILL be disappointing games where your offense is totally obliterated. Secondly, we run off metalcraft. Beware of cards as small as Krosan Grip, as suffocating as Return to Dust, and as deadly as Austere Command. As a rule of thumb, try not to severely overextend - allow the equipment to bring you the card advantage. Unfortunately, it's extremely hard to evade these issues as Boros, so we'll just have to make do with what we have.
With that all said, let's take a look at what I have so far.
1 Skullclamp
1 Mask of Memory
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Darksteel Plate
1 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Obsidian Battle-Axe
1 Grafted Exoskeleton
Creatures (24)
1 Mother of Runes
1 Devoted Caretaker
1 Planar Guide
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Puresteel Paladin
1 Manic Vandal
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Oxidda Scrapmelter
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Loxodon Gatekeeper
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Indomitable Archangel
1 Stonehewer Giant
1 Keldon Firebombers
1 Urabrask the Hidden
1 Duplicant
1 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Boom/Bust
1 Catastrophe
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Blood Moon
1 Winter Orb
Plan B (2)
1 Decree of Justice
1 White Sun’s Zenith
Finishing Blow (1)
1 Savage Beating
Deck Facilitators (6)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Steelshaper’s Gift
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Land Tax
1 Scroll Rack
1 Parallax Wave
Acceleration (19)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Boros Signet
1 Fire Diamond
1 Marble Diamond
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Mind Stone
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Guardian Idol
1 Coalition Relic
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Great Furnace
1 Ancient Den
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Mishra’s Workshop
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Glimmervoid
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Rugged Praerie
1 Ancient Amphitheater
1 Boros Garrison
Ok, so let's examine further!
The section below is outdated - please read entire thread for more up to date information
Equipment
I've organized the equipment by function. The first four are for straight up card advantage. The Sunforger package was included here, as I believe the card to be one of the saving graces of Boros. It's been kept to a minimum, but at least the options are still there. The next three pieces of equipment are for protection, and the last set is for huge life swings. You may laugh, but Quietus Spike is EXTREMELY deadly in these types of decks, allowing you to potentially 1-shot players. Grafted Exoskeleton makes Jor Kadeen a 1-shot monster.
Creatures
There are a few subtypes of creatures here, and they all provide important functions for the deck. Without going into excruciating detail, I hope you can understand what I am going for here. You've got protection for Jor Kadeen with Mother of Runes and Eight-and-a-Half Tails; guys that gum up the game, like Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Magus of the Moon, and Hokori, Dust Drinker; equipment facilitators, like Puresteel Paladin and Stoneforge Mystic; guys that can take instant advantage of equipment and Jor Kadeen, like Mirran Crusader; removal with FTK and heretic; guys that make more guys, like Hero of Bladehold; and most importantly, Leonin Abunas and Indomitable Archangel - protection for your metalcraft. You've got cheap, efficient creatures that are benefited from Jor Kadeen, help slow the game down, and facilitate the deck while still being able to mount an offense.
Land Destruction
Perhaps the only true way for this color combo to be viable is by issuing several threats in the first few turns, drop a geddon, and break parity by running tons of artifacts. I haven't gone overboard on the geddons, because it is a very all-in strategy. Instead, we have the cheapest geddons, Catastrophe, which acts as a backup wrath, moon effects, and, my favorite, Winter Orb effects. In this way we can severely slow down opposition while still mounting our cheap offense.
Creature Generators & Boosts
These are the trump cards of the deck. When everything goes wrong and you get burnt by a mass-removal spell, they're probably going to leave you alone for a while. I always try to find cards that will allow my decks to turn the tables, and I have definitely seen haste, as well as a table full of pumped tokens, instantly kill entire tables. Imagine if you managed to have both! It helps that both Decree of Justice and White Sun's Zenith are instant speed, so the surprise attack can be EXTREMELY deadly, especially with Jor Kadeen's +3/+0.
Utility Spells & Deck Facilitators
I don't think much has to be said here. These cards were mostly included as a way to improve Sunforger, but they might be cut in the long run because they just do not help with the deck's strategy, which is virtually pure offense and taxation.
Acceleration & Lands
As stated before, we have tons of ways to enter metalcraft and break parity with our land destruction. You might question the low land count, but we are an extremely fast deck with an extremely low curve. Explosive draws are more important than hitting your fourth or fifth land drop! Try this out sometime - I've had extreme success running less lands and more accelerants, especially in multiplayer where you can quickly drop your bombs and end the game.
So now that I've covered the whole deck, there are three different directions we can push the deck in to make it more efficient.
More Creatures
Creatures are, without a doubt, the spine of this deck. If we can replace the Sunforger toolbox with more disruption, I'm all for it. I'm talking about guys like Boros Swiftblade, Hoard-Smelter Dragon, Inferno Titan, and the likes to really turn the heat on. Unfortunately, this strategy is still vulnerable to wrath effects and may depend on your metagame.
More Land Destruction
Adding more geddons will probably make this deck more consistent in its win ratio. I think that the number of LD effects is comfortable right now, but you may want to add Ruination or Decree of Annihilation, depending on the meta.
More Aggression
This might be the wrong subsection title, but there are a few cards in red that allow you to really push for the win. I'm talking about Aggravated Assault and Savage Beating type cards, which in conjunction with Sword of Feast and Famine, can wreak all sorts of havoc. This falls into a more combo-ish strategy, and relies more on gimmicks. It might be what the color combo needs to win, so I find it hard to dismiss this kind of approach.
Looking forward to working with you guys
PROSPECTIVE 05.23.11
-Scroll Rack
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Parallax Wave
-Duplicant
+Uba Mask
+Smokestack
+Tangle Wire
+Goblin Welder
05.22.11
-Mirran Crusader
-Hero of Bladehold
-Ghostway
-Orim’s Thunder
-Wild Ricochet
-Sunforger
-Fervor
-Quietus Spike
-Swords to Plowshares
-In the Web of War
+Loxodon Gatekeeper
+Devoted Caretaker
+Phyrexian Revoker
+Duplicant
+Planar Guide
+Ethersworn Canonist
+Oxidda Scrapmelter
+Parallax Wave
+Boom // Bust
+Decree of Annihilation
+Hall of the Bandit Lord
05.02.11
-Foriysian Totem
-Thunder Totem
-Darksteel Ingot
-Star Compass
-Godo, Bandit Warlord
-Basic Land
+Land Tax
+Urabrask the Hidden
+Savage Beating
+Everflowing Chalice
+Obsidian Battle-Axe
+Mistveil Plains
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
You have most of the common haste outlets covered, but the big omission I see is Obsidian Battle-Axe. Jor Kadeen is a Human Warrior, so he obviously gets the free equip. This will effectively turn Jor Kadeen into a 7/5 first striker with haste. There are very, very, VERY few creatures in Magic that can get into a slugfest with Jor Kadeen once he gets to 7 or more power. The power boost is mainly the bonus though. The haste is where it's all at.
I like the card a lot better than Fervor. Fervor does have the advantage though of being an enchantment (since artifacts are usually easier to blow up) and affecting all your guys, but Obsidian Battle-Axe gives you an extra touch of power and powers up metalcraft easier.
EDIT: also why not run Urabrask the Hidden? Seem's awesome in a deck like this
Level 1 Judge
Now for the big question: if your deck's mana curve is so low, why do you have 20+ mana rocks? You must topdeck them quite often and I bet it sucks to do so. I would seriously consider cutting at least 5, maybe 10 of them. Mana should not make up more than half your deck with a small curve like yours, no matter how badly you want metalcraft. There are other ways to get it as I will discuss below.
Play some artifact cards that kick some butt instead of a few of those mana rocks. Thopter Assembly and Pentavus give you an army of flying 4/1s that guarantee you metalcraft. They are insane with Jor Kadeen. Darksteel Forge makes it impossible for you to lose metalcraft unless it's exiled.
You need Land Tax! It combos with Scroll Rack to draw you three cards once per turn. That draw engine is just bananas in Boros.
You forgot Mistveil Plains in your Sunforger package. It lets you reuse your Sunforger targets! Definitely cut a Plains for it.
If you like having fun with equipments, Leonin Shikari lets you equip at instant speed. Seems good with Greaves, no?
I think you yourself should be running Austere Command. I truly believe it is the best white wrath as you will almost always come out ahead when playing it.
Savage Beating is no gimmick, my friend. That card is the real deal. You will just smoke players out of nowhere with 4x the combat damage. That guy with 100 life? Dead. Put it in here in place of a mana rock. And if you're happy with that, Insurrection fills the same role in taking away all your opponent's blockers for the alpha strike. I have never cast Insurrection without killing a player and I plan to continue the shenanigans until people stop playing Genesis Wave :rofl:.
One more ace up your sleeve as an insta-win: Open the Vaults. Yeah. You're pretty much going to win when you cast that card after someone sweeps the board of artifacts.
Another really good land you missed is Kor Haven. Since you're doing so much attacking, you will be open for counterattacks quite often. Kor Haven really helps take the pressure off. Cut a basic of your choosing (or a mana rock) for it and you won't look back.
Tempo mentioned Urabrask, the Hidden. I think he is a fine utility creature for the deck, keeping the table clear of untapped blockers so Jor Kadeen can come smashing in for 8. Again, you have like a billion mana rocks.
The foundation of this deck is very solid. Just a few minor changes here and I think you can really take it to the next level. Good luck!
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I agree that haste is amazing, but I don't want to put ALL the focus on Jor Kadeen. Granted being able to attack with him instantly the turn he comes out is great, I don't think that the axe is good enough in any other situation since it provides such a small offensive bonus for its equip cost. At least Fervor allows all of my creatures to become hasted, and is much more valuable here. I could see it being better if I up my creature curve, but these little weenies I have just won't gain enough from it IMO. Since I am cutting a few rocks, I MIGHT consider it, but the fact that it basically only helps 3 creatures in this deck is kind of a bummer to me.
I really like Glory and Urabrask here. I'm not 100% sold on Hoarding Dragon, as keeping creatures like that around isn't that big of a deal for me. I was trying to think of which artifact I'd want to tutor up that'd make killing him TRULY not worth it for my opponents, and I just couldn't come up with one. They'd still gladly kill Jor Kadeen and the dragon with a wrath. These other two are just amazing though - can't believe I skipped over them.
Great suggestions, thanks!
@Rocks
These are what allow the deck to be aggressive. If you play at the same pace as the other control decks, you're going to fall behind. I've started to utilize this strategy in all of my EDH decks, and will not drop below 15 mana accelerants. Granted this deck doesn't have green, I still won't drop below ~18-ish rocks. Topdecking doesn't really matter when the point of rocks is to really speed out faster than your opponents then break parity by playing a Winter Orb effect, geddon, or moon effect. I can see cutting a few of the bad ones, but for the most part, this strategy has always been effective for me and I'm not sure if I want to give it up. I'd probably cut a few of the slower ones, add Land Tax like suggested, and add in a few more lands to offset the loss of mana (note that I am running 33 lands, so I can't afford to cut too many mana sources)
@Suggested Cards
I'm really liking Savage Beating and Mistveil Plains. I think they can come into the deck without argument. I'm not sure about Pentavus - it's really slow and mana intensive. Thopter Assembly might be okay, but you literally have to wait till turn 3 to attack with it, which gives my opponents more than enough time to do something about it. I'm not 100% sure on Leonin Shikari either. I really think it's too cute, as it is only a mild defensive option against a single type of removal, and she requires you to have a defensive equipment already to be good. I think I'd rather spend my few precious spots on the more brutal cards mentioned above.
Overall, very, very impressive suggestions. I'm usually shaking my head at what people have to say about this archetype, but this has made me very happy
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Also, i like Knight of the White Orchid in my Brion deck. Along with Land Tax, I would always opt to draw first jus to get either to trigger. But that's because my deck is more control-ish.
I also have Anger in my list jus so i can dump it in my bin when i draw 1st.
Edit: also Emeria Angel
Level 1 Judge
Its a good card, its only downside is that it is expensive to play and isnt really a threat in its own. Considering it will take an entire turn to drop into play and without a board presence it does little I wouldn't say it is a bad card but its mana cost is a draw back.
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[Modern] Allies
this is true, though have you seen all the manafacts he has? I mean if he cant afford 7 colorless mana something BAD is happening.
Level 1 Judge
EDIT: Honestly though when looking at an expensive artifact like this I sort of think that's almost enough mana for Darksteel Forge. I still think that SuperSonik was right in suggesting this card. I just look at metalcraft as a setup 3+ for 1 artifact wrath. The forge is so damn scary when it resolves.
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[Modern] Allies
You know what, all those creatures have come and gone through my idea pool. The problem with all of the above is that they do not provide a large enough impact on the game for me to really warrant their inclusion. All the creatures in this list provide something on TOP of being bodies - either protection or disruption or card advantage. It's true that cards such as Siege-Gang Commander can make Jor Kadeen more deadly, but by itself it offers too little, especially if something happens to Jor Kadeen. Thus, I've pretty much opted to not run massive amounts of token producers, as these attack phases can be seen from a mile away and will more than most likely be dealt with rather quickly. I would honestly rather run either of the Elspeths, because they do not die to the same things Jor Kadeen does and can constantly provide bodies to work with (or an evasive bonus for JK himself).
Land Tax made it into the deck already - I can't believe I forgot to add that card originally
These cards, while good, have difficulty making the cut. I understand that they can provide the potential to possibly obliterate another player, but I'd rather a more consistent, disruptive deck than one with too many aggressive aids and not enough aggression itself.
Akroma's Memorial does not help the volume of the creatures, which a concern for this deck. It does not amplify the power of the creatures in any significant or relevant way. Sure it makes creatures evasive and more resilient, but that's not what we're looking for here, and certainly not at 7 CMC. I know this goes a bit against what I just said about the Siege-Gang Commander, as that guy (and his friends) provide volume for the deck, but the truth is I need both value AND volume - only the best of the best, and cards that are stand-alone good, can make it in here. There's not as much flex room in a deck that must take every slight advantage possible, because there are virtually no corners to cut.
Darksteel Forge is too high on the curve. Sure I can hit 8 mana, but I don't really care for it if I do. I'd much rather have an LD spell in its place so that I can assure that my opponents can't come back after I've set up my offense. This whole list is built around buying time long enough for you to kill the table, and this is done through the moon effects, orb effects, and geddons. So in the end, it honestly just does not do enough for the deck to warrant a slot.
What the deck truly needs more of, now, is highly disruptive creatures and possibly more land destruction. Let me post some of the creatures that I think have potential to make it in here:
Gold Myr
Iron Myr
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Revoker
Mangara of Corondor
Stonecloaker
Loxodon Gatekeeper
Oxidda Scrapmelter
Voidstone Gargoyle
Duplicant
Inferno Titan
Hoard-Smelter Dragon
and for LD, considering a few choices...
Ruination
Static Orb
Decree of Annihilation
Impending Disaster
These are the type of cards I'm looking for - ones that carry value, something that we know Boros has very little of. The gems of the deck, like Keldon Firebombers and Hokori, Dust Drinker have already been found and put into the list. Now the question is: what have I missed?
Also, another point on the mana rocks...
I think you guys are over and under-estimating several things. First off, running around ~15-20 mana rocks, I still consistently only see about ~2-4 from early to mid game, which is perfectly ideal. It's not like I always see an overwhelming number of rocks - the reason the number is so high is because I want the density for metalcraft, the consistency for breaking parity with geddons, and the speed to put on an early aggression. You guys are making it sound like I have way too much mana for my own good, but the reality is that I'm running just as few mana sources as the next deck - I'm at 51, including all rocks. I honestly can't see Jor Kadeen staying an 8/4 with less than 30 artifacts in your deck. It just isn't possible. And even if it is, it won't be comfortably so. There's literally no downside to running heavy rocks in Boros, as you're not giving up slots for them, you're replacing land slots with them. In return you directly boost the two most important cornerstones of the deck: metalcraft and breaking parity. You can argue that I lose to mass artifact destruction - but so what? Aggro Boros is already a high-risk archetype - now it's just a matter of making the reward great enough to warrant that risk.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
lol, I never thought so either. Most of the time you'll see me tapping Swamps and Islands :D. BUT, I have a natural affinity for 'prince-like' characters, so I figured I'd build a fun deck (that's turning more cut throat by the minute) as a challenge. Boros is generally dismissed as being an awful deck, but I was hoping to really optimize this list because Jor Kadeen hits hard enough that he can really take advantage of the time bought with LD. No matter how I look at it though, Uril really just seems like a better general for the geddon strategy hahaha. But I've made it a personal mission now to create a fearsome Boros multiplayer deck - any and all help is welcome, especially from you
Great point about the LD. As I was fishing the list, I did indeed feel like I needed more of it. At the time I created the list, I wasn't sure of what points I wanted to emphasize more, so I played it really safe by giving each type of card (ie LD, haste, equipment) a fairly equal number of slots. The more I develop the list competitively though, the more I realize that LD is the only thing that'll keep this deck in contention against the more fearsome color wedges. In the end, I'm probably going to cut a few 'cute' cards, like Ghostway and eventually Sunforger. The more I fish the list, the more I feel like the Sunforger package is really just too fruity and luxurious. If I want pure efficiency, equipment like that isn't going to cut it. I could see Sunforger being a huge asset in a traditional Boros list, but over here, I have better things to be doing with mana than being cute I think.
I feel like the one thing I'm also missing, now, is removal. There's only really one 187 creature in here, FTK, and I feel like I want more. The problem is there really aren't that many more 187 creatures in white or red that are efficient. Any suggestions here? I was about to hop on the creature-tapping bandwagon, but that seems pretty bad. I suppose defaulting to traditional removal is okay too, although I'd much rather have creature variations. But then again, on the flipside of things, not many can block a 8/4 first striker. I'm more concerned with things blocking the rest of my army.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
as a side note, i really like the idea of this deck, just started EDH ( made my first deck today) with agrus kos as general, going to be moving to jor kadeen when i can. Am also making another deck for a friend so we can try out edh, probably going to use borborygmos.
I definitely thought about Ajani Vengeant. The problem is that he only keeps a creature tapped if it has already been tapped beforehand - which doesn't really help against defenders. However, the Lightning Helix ability may come in handy, and the LD is always relevant (thought it only affects one player). It's definitely worth considering. Also, let me know what you think of the deck after you play it! I haven't actually run Boros in a real playgroup yet, so I have no idea how well this will do. What I will say is that I've seen Blood Moon, Winter Orb, and Armageddon trash entire tables, and considering that this is alongside another annoying effects like Linvala, and Aven Mindcensor, backed by a fast clock - I can see this deck going somewhere. I just need to adjust the densities according to how well this deck flows. I'll be trying this list out pretty soon at my own LGS.
Also, Donald, I'm usually a big fan of Parallax Wave, but I just don't like it in here. It almost seems too much of an "all-in" type of card, as in I really need to be in a winning position for it to be good, otherwise it's just pretty mediocre. I could see Tangle Wire being decent, but a somewhat dead draw towards the end of the game.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Why is Parallax Wave all in? It is an easy 5 for 1 in almost any situation and I would think perhaps just as good if not better if you are behind.
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Basically I'm saying you need to have the kill on the table or the card diminishes in value because the removal is temporary. It doesn't help me if I'm behind because the only reason I'd be behind is if my creatures are no longer on the table. And in that case, I am completely unable to mount any sort of offense, and Parallax Wave as a way to remove blockers for a turn or two, loses its appeal. Now if you're arguing that it'll save me from dying, sure, it does that for a turn or two. But that's not what I'm looking for.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
@Keldon Vandals
The echo is NOT worth the cost. This deck always wants to be doing things and can't afford to waste a turn like that.
@Darksteel Ingot
The point of keeping the diamonds is because they're 2CMC versus 3CMC. Since this deck barely has any two-drops, that slot is PERFECT for setting up turn three 4CMC drops.
@Quietus Spike
This is an aggro deck. No other equipment in the format gives you such a momentous life swing, regardless of whether or not the life loss occurs pre or post damage. The truth is, I won't expect to kill most players in one combat phase, but the spike easily turns it into two combat phases. And @ the first strike damage comment, you may or may not have forgotten that our poster boy has first strike, allowing friends to clean up.
@Order/Chaos
I'm going to be cutting the Sunforger package I think, but I do like this card somewhat. You've got me thinking on the unblockable side now, so I'll be doing a lot of exploration there. Thanks!
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Regarding the Quietus Spike, I really like it. Give it to a creature with first or double strike to get in before everything else to cut an opponents life in half, then swing through with the rest who dont have it.
I think you're focusing on the remove blockers aspect too much. It can certainly do that but not only does it remove blockers it also protects your creatures from wraths, lets you abuse ETB creatures and you have a tutor for it making it more appealing than an STP or something similar. The flexibility and accessibility of the card are what make it so strong. With Tangle Wire you need to keep in mind that even later in the game you might have recently reset the lands so even then Tangle Wire is still a great topdeck just to slow people down, plus it's an artifact for metalcraft. No matter how you build this deck though I fear it's just going to be a suboptimal Uril deck since you lose access to the broken LD Uril can play (Devastating Dreams/Wildfire/Cataclysm), some really powerful finishers like Terravore and Knight of the Reliquary and your general doesn't have built in protection.
Fountain Watch I know you already have a bunch of those effects but I thought I would mention it anyways.
Flagstones of Trokair I know Donald mentioned it once already but I figure it has to be better than a regular plains in a deck that revolves arround doing mass LD.
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[Modern] Allies
The problem with Ruel is that his targets are just "okay". I don't really care much for Serra Ascendant or Figure of Destiny. They're good, but I'm looking more for creatures that offer either a disruptive element or protection. If this list were for 1v1, I'd definitely consider it, but seeing as it's MP, they have too small of an effect.
Fountain Watch is good, but it depends on how badly my stuff gets beat up. I don't think it will, so I won't run it yet.
Flagstones of Trokair will definitely come in.
I'm not sure if I'm going to build this yet - it all depends on how well my Kaervek list does. Keep the ideas coming though
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain