I've always been a Spike player, so when I first heard about EDH, I knew exactly what general I wanted to use! The most undercosted green mana producer of all time. No, not Mox Emerald. Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary. Little did I know that he had been previously banned and the subject of much discussion. But more on that later.
I personally hate playing big dumb guys who trade one-for-one with removal spells. In EDH, you have to expect everyone will kill your creatures, so never let them get a fair trade. Nearly every creature in here either generates card advantage or requires a board sweeper to effectively neutralize. The result is a particularly control oriented deck which I've found is very competitive even in large games.
Sensei's Divining Top: Sylvan Library and Mirri's Guile are generally better cards because early mana is at a premium in this deck. The top also gets shut down by Null Rod and Damping Matrix. As Top is neutralized by 4 other cards in the deck and by running low on mana, I've stopped playing it.
Gaea's Cradle:
Each forest already produces 2 mana (one from itself and one from Rofellos). For a non-basic land to be better, it needs to make 3 mana. So Cradle is a liability after a Wrath of God and less effective than Forest in the early game.
Omnath, Locus of Mana:
He's just a big, dumb dude who trades with Path to Exile and gets stopped by any regenerater because he can't trample. He's also terrible if you want to spend your mana to cast spells, which the high mana curve on this deck generally wants.
Exploration:
This card is surprisingly less effective than you'd think. It's only really good with 4 lands in hand on turn two. The large amount of land search combined with the power of Rofellos means the deck is tuned to draw 3 lands by turn 3 and maybe 4 lands by turn 4. Exploration is good when the deck is rolling and drawing a lot of cards, but by then you're winning anyway.
Krosan Grip:
This card is a bit too reactive for my tastes, and it's still just a one-for-one trade. I prefer cards like Null Rod, Damping Matrix, and Tornado which handle many cards at once.
Desert Twister:
Even the ability to destroy creatures doesn't make it worth paying 4GG for this effect.
Staff of Domination:
The spike in me feels bad for not playing this card, and I'd play it in a 1v1 tournament. But I just don't have fun when I draw it. Staff + Rofellos + 5 forests is an instant win. With infinite mana, you draw your deck, use Unyaro Bees to do 2 damage to someone, then recycle it with Primal Command. Regrowth the Primal Command to complete the cycle. I'd rather have an awesome turn that makes me 95% likely to win the game than a boring turn that wins 100% of the time.
Umbral Mantle:
Similar comments as Staff of Domination. Getting infinite mana generates turns that just aren't as fun for me. It feels like I have nothing left to work for. Obviously you'd play this in a 1v1 tournament though.
Strip Mine:
Land drops are hugely important for this deck. They cannot be wasted on land destruction. Besides, there are enough other cards in the deck that both destroy lands and develop either the mana base or board position.
There are also some atypical card choices:
Ritual of Subdual:
I cannot express how much of a beating this card is. If you resolve this card with Rofellos in play, you've basically won the game. Doesn't matter how many opponents you have. You just win. The only available outs are signets and disk effects, both of which get shut down by Null Rod. It's also easy to kill the players most likely to have outs first, then turn your later creatures on the less dangerous opponents once the cumulative upkeep gets in the 10+ range.
Nature's Wrath:
Like Ritual of Subdual, this card is also a total beating. The large majority of decks I play use either blue or black, and often both. Resolving this card on turn 3 or 4 almost completely shuts down those decks. Focused blue and black decks just crumple and die. Multicolor decks ends up drawing a lot of dead cards, especially if they haven't developed blue and black early. Note that this card will double trigger on any blue/black creature (like Sharuum the Hegemon) or island/swamp (like Underground Sea). Their only real solution is Nevinyrral's Disk or Oblivion Stone.
Null Rod:
People sure do run a lot of disks and signets. What if a two mana card could completely shut them down, along with Sol Rings and Thran Dynamos? This deck's only liabilities are Lightning Greaves, Memory Jar, and Sol Ring, all of which can be played around.
Damping Matrix:
It won't shut down mana abilities like signets, but it stops a ton of crazy creature abilities and still locks down disks. The only creature liabilities in this deck are Ant Queen, Nemata, Masticore, Patron of the Orichi, Yavimaya Elder, Unyaro Bees, and Silvos. Almost always a strong play.
Tsabo's Web:
It's amazing how many random utility lands people play that just get screwed by this card. It shuts down this deck's Oran-rief and Maze of Ith, but otherwise it's a non-issue. Particularly hilarious against the Mirage fetch lands and Krosan Verge.
Splintering Wind:
An enchant that deals direct damage and produces fliers? Probably the most out of flavor green card ever. But with a bucket of mana, it provides an answer to most creatures and doubles as a threat.
Eternity Vessel:
While not amazing, it will generally deflect attacks elsewhere. People figure that someone will eventually sweep the board. Once the vessel is dead, they can focus attacks on you. What it really does is buy you development time.
There are a number of particular savage combos in this deck as well:
Gaea's Touch + Ritual of Subdual:
Ritual of Subdual sucks if you don't have Rofellos in play. If you're scared of removal, just cast Ritual with a Gaea's Touch in play. Once no one has colored mana left, you can safely sacrifice Gaea's Touch to cast Rofellos and keep the ritual out forever.
Survival of the Fittest + Oracle of Mul Daya:
Is the top card of your deck not land? Just spend G to get a different creature and try again. As a bonus, it stocks your graveyard with targets to get back with the Genesis you just discarded.
Sylvan Library + Abundance
Sylvan Library makes you draw 3 cards, then put back 2 cards you've drawn this turn (unless you pay life). Abundance turns your draws into an effect that puts a land or non-land card into your hand. When you replace the Sylvan Library draws with Abundance, you put 3 cards into your hand and draw 0 cards that turn. Because Sylvan Library can't find cards you've drawn, you just pay 0 life and fail to put anything back. It's like drawing Ancestral Recall every turn.
Chord of Calling + Vigor:
Is there a lot of incoming damage from a Starstorm or Chain Reaction? Or maybe you just decided to swing with your guys into a "fair" combat trade? Pull Vigor from your deck at instant speed and be the only person left with some amazingly large creatures.
Eternity Vessel + Tornado:
Negate the cumulative life payment on Tornado by constantly resetting your life total. An enchantment with 2G: Vindicate? A little overpowered!
Splintering Wind + Vigor:
You can spend 2G to put a +1/+1 counter on one of your creatures, then fail to pay the cumulative upkeep which puts a +1/+1 counter on all of your creatures (other than Vigor). Do this up to 5 times a round if you want Vigor to stay in play. Or you can just kill their creatures with it, and still pump your team.
There's still a few cards I'm not totally happy with, mostly the pure threats, but an EDH deck is always a work in progress. Rise of the Eldrazzi should help a good amount.
Regarding the question of whether Rofellos should be banned again, I side with "no". You can play a ton of mana production, but really the best you are doing is playing a bunch of dudes. If opponents save removal for Rofellos, the deck is much slower. This deck also has a big problem with control magic effects (one reason I did not include any indestructible effects). The fact that your deck is mono-green is a bigger drawback than you'd think. But yes, it can get some amazing draws and win games that way. But what deck doesn't intend to win games?
I would like to see Staff of Domination banned though. That card has no healthy purpose in EDH.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
ursapine and kahmal are both amazing with rofellos, overrunning 5+ times in a single turn usually means gg.
helix pinnacle is usually a good way to end those stupid stalemates pretty quickly, either you win in a turn or 2 or everyone destroys themselves trying to kill you.
ursapine and kahmal are both amazing with rofellos, overrunning 5+ times in a single turn usually means gg.
helix pinnacle is usually a good way to end those stupid stalemates pretty quickly, either you win in a turn or 2 or everyone destroys themselves trying to kill you.
I actually played Khamal for a while, but eventually cut him because he's "just another big dude". Combos well with Masticore and/or Splintering Wind though, since you can destroy everyone's land.
Ursapine also has the same "big dude" problem than Khamal has. It's a similar effect to Unyaro Bees, but at least the bees fly and dodge Ensnaring Bridge. It's generally not that useful that you can give any creature +1/+1.
I thought about Helix Pinnacle, but worried it would be too slow without Seedborn Muse in play. In small games, you don't get enough untaps to feed it. And in large games, literally everyone will dogpile you unless you shut them down with Ritual of Subdual. But if you have Ritual out, you've already won. I confess I haven't tried it though, and I can think of a few games where it might have won me the game.
My basic opinion is that if I would never use Survival of the Fittest to search for a creature, it shouldn't be in the deck. Everything needs to fill a role beyond being a "big dumb dude". Same reason for no Primal Crux.
With that in mind, here are the cards I'm least happy with:
Eternity Vessel is a passive card in a fundamentally active deck. I'd rather play something like Pelakka Wurm from RoE.
Rampaging Baloths and Ant Queen fill the role of "get extra dudes into play". The Baloths really depends on additional land play support cards to matter. If you can't play 3 extra lands, he's probably not worth it. I've never searched for this guy.
Ant Queen is more mana efficient than Nemata is, but fills the same role: a sink for an awful lot of mana. Once you are spending 12+ mana per turn, Nemata just puts more damage on the table than Ant Queen due to the sacrifice ability. I've never tutored for Ant Queen for this reason. (To be fair, I've also never searched out Nemata.)
Silvos is just a big dude that dodges some mass removal effects. Unyaro Bees dodges Ensnaring Bridge and ground blockers. But I don't think either of these are sufficient to keep the cards in deck.
Last, it might surprise some people to see Seedborn Muse on the list. The muse isn't that good in this deck unless you have an instant speed mana sink like Centaur Glade, Nemata, or Chord of Calling. There just aren't that many effects to use. And just putting Seedborn Muse in play causes people to clone or steal her, in blue decks that can put untapping to much better effect than I can. She can be a pretty big liability in some matchups. I'd rather cut Muse and the weaker cards that want the Muse in play.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Wow...many hidding gems in this deck. Very nice. Im a blue payer and Nature's Wrath is insane. I would never mention that card in front of my group.:D
There are two cards that i very much dislike and i would cut for many reasons, one of them is the very same one you mentioned in your first post...They are just big dumbs that just trade.
I'd say that Exploration is head and heels better then Harrow in the deck.
If you think of Survival of the Fittest as a creature tutor only your doing it wrong. The primary play is too use it as a way too put Genesis right into your graveyard, Turning Survival from Tutor to actual card advantage...
Wow...many hidding gems in this deck. Very nice. Im a blue payer and Nature's Wrath is insane. I would never mention that card in front of my group.:D
There are two cards that i very much dislike and i would cut for many reasons, one of them is the very same one you mentioned in your first post...They are just big dumbs that just trade.
I don't know what this deck would do if Tidal Control resolves. I'm pretty sure it's an auto loss, especially in a large group game. Surely SOMEONE can find the 2 mana or 2 life to counter everything I want to cast.
I'm a pretty big fan of Omen of Fire as well.
I think you're right about Gigapede and Scute Mob being two more big dumb dudes that don't advance my win condition (total board control). I don't think Multani, Maro-sorcerer helps either though. I will note that Gigapede is a really solid clock against decks that are light on creatures and heavy on mass removal. But 6 damage a turn doesn't feel substantial enough. I'm never happy to put him into play.
The big benefit of Scute Mob is his one mana price tag. He can easily slip into play early and demand some kind of early removal. Unfortunately, that removal might be Treachery. And beating an opponent down to 10 life before they establish control isn't very helpful-- this deck can easily swing for 40 damage once its established itself.
What about Eldrazi Monument? It dies to artifact removal, but offers a lot of protection. It's a pretty proactive threat.
Other options include more disruption in the form of Dosan the Falling Leaf or Hall of Gemstones. The latter in particular is very hard for many decks to deal with.
I haven't updated the root post because I considered it a record of the actual physical deck I've tested, not what I'd like to build. I will be updating it as I get more cards for it though.
I'd say that Exploration is head and heels better then Harrow in the deck.
If you think of Survival of the Fittest as a creature tutor only your doing it wrong. The primary play is too use it as a way too put Genesis right into your graveyard, Turning Survival from Tutor to actual card advantage...
The big problem with Exploration is that it's inherently card disadvantage, in the same way chrome mox and mox diamond are. They accelerate your mana plays, but you never recoup the card itself. In contrast, Harrow costs you two cards (the forest and the harrow) and provides you two cards (two new forests). So you break even.
Harrow also has really good synergy with cards that make forests produce extra mana, such as Vernal Bloom. Harrow generates more mana the turn its cast than an extra land from exploration does.
I have considered playing Explore, however, as it doesn't have the card disadvantage problem. It feels like another copy of Nature's Lore to me.
On the subject of Survival of the Fittest, Genesis is always the first card I get. I thought that interaction was obvious enough that it didn't warrant mentioning. I also didn't mention using Genesis to pay Masticore's upkeep for the same reason.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I don't know what this deck would do if Tidal Control resolves. I'm pretty sure it's an auto loss, especially in a large group game. Surely SOMEONE can find the 2 mana or 2 life to counter everything I want to cast.
I'm a pretty big fan of Omen of Fire as well.
I think you're right about Gigapede and Scute Mob being two more big dumb dudes that don't advance my win condition (total board control). I don't think Multani, Maro-sorcerer helps either though. I will note that Gigapede is a really solid clock against decks that are light on creatures and heavy on mass removal. But 6 damage a turn doesn't feel substantial enough. I'm never happy to put him into play.
The big benefit of Scute Mob is his one mana price tag. He can easily slip into play early and demand some kind of early removal. Unfortunately, that removal might be Treachery. And beating an opponent down to 10 life before they establish control isn't very helpful-- this deck can easily swing for 40 damage once its established itself.
What about Eldrazi Monument? It dies to artifact removal, but offers a lot of protection. It's a pretty proactive threat.
Other options include more disruption in the form of Dosan the Falling Leaf or Hall of Gemstones. The latter in particular is very hard for many decks to deal with.
I haven't updated the root post because I considered it a record of the actual physical deck I've tested, not what I'd like to build. I will be updating it as I get more cards for it though.
The big problem with Exploration is that it's inherently card disadvantage, in the same way chrome mox and mox diamond are. They accelerate your mana plays, but you never recoup the card itself. In contrast, Harrow costs you two cards (the forest and the harrow) and provides you two cards (two new forests). So you break even.
Harrow also has really good synergy with cards that make forests produce extra mana, such as Vernal Bloom. Harrow generates more mana the turn its cast than an extra land from exploration does.
I have considered playing Explore, however, as it doesn't have the card disadvantage problem. It feels like another copy of Nature's Lore to me.
On the subject of Survival of the Fittest, Genesis is always the first card I get. I thought that interaction was obvious enough that it didn't warrant mentioning. I also didn't mention using Genesis to pay Masticore's upkeep for the same reason.
Wow....Those are some good hosers!!:rofl:
I also like Conversion
I like Dosan..and the Hall of Gemstones. Good disruption spells. How about City of Solitude it will be a Dosan harder to deal with.
I like the Eldrazi Monument but not for your deck. Doest benefit so much off of it. Yopu dont run that many creatures, and the ones you do, you want them to stick around. I dont see you deck having multiples of creatures in play all the time.Plus, i see that you cut some of your token makers. SO, for the monument to work fine you would need to concentrate into token makes a little bit more.
About Gigapede , I was only comparing it to Multani. He is a h e l l of a beatter and have shroud. But i would deft. replace those two for somethin else.How about Verdant Force and it could help if you are trying to run the monument.
I also like Greater Godd to recoup if they are destroying your monsters. Finally some cards i want to point out for being really good on a mono green are Cream of the CropReach of Branches and Chameleon Colosus
The thing is, I just don't care about counter spells. I generally have more mana than them. And if there's something really good I want to resolve, I can just point it at a non-blue player instead, and attack the blue player later. So I don't think City of Solitude does much. This is a control deck, but a very aggressive one. Hall of Gemstones, on the other hand, directly affects my opponents' ability to play gold spells, which is a good portion of most decks (including almost all generals).
You are correct that Eldrazi Monument isn't good here unless I get a token generator. What I'm learning is that cards that only work in a combo aren't good cards to play. Same reason I want to cut Eternity Vessel and Rampaging Baloths.
About Gigapede , I was only comparing it to Multani. He is a h e l l of a beatter and have shroud. But i would deft. replace those two for somethin else.How about Verdant Force and it could help if you are trying to run the monument.
I also like Greater Godd to recoup if they are destroying your monsters.
Same problem here. Verdant Force is still just a big, dumb guy, and he's slower at generating creatures than Avenger of Zendikar. Greater Good is only good with a 4+ power creature that you don't actually want in play. I guess it's another way to get rid of Genesis, but that's not this deck's major problem. It just feels too slow.
I considered all of these cards. Cream of the Crop has the same card loss issue that Exploration has, and additionally this deck doesn't put THAT many creatures into play. Reach for Branches costs an awful lot of mana for a 2/5 guy that doesn't really affect this deck's board position. And Chameleon Colossus is yet another Big Dumb Guy. Maybe I should just play Mindslaver or something.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
The thing is, I just don't care about counter spells. I generally have more mana than them. And if there's something really good I want to resolve, I can just point it at a non-blue player instead, and attack the blue player later. So I don't think City of Solitude does much. This is a control deck, but a very aggressive one. Hall of Gemstones, on the other hand, directly affects my opponents' ability to play gold spells, which is a good portion of most decks (including almost all generals).
You are correct that Eldrazi Monument isn't good here unless I get a token generator. What I'm learning is that cards that only work in a combo aren't good cards to play. Same reason I want to cut Eternity Vessel and Rampaging Baloths.
Same problem here. Verdant Force is still just a big, dumb guy, and he's slower at generating creatures than Avenger of Zendikar. Greater Good is only good with a 4+ power creature that you don't actually want in play. I guess it's another way to get rid of Genesis, but that's not this deck's major problem. It just feels too slow.
I considered all of these cards. Cream of the Crop has the same card loss issue that Exploration has, and additionally this deck doesn't put THAT many creatures into play. Reach for Branches costs an awful lot of mana for a 2/5 guy that doesn't really affect this deck's board position. And Chameleon Colossus is yet another Big Dumb Guy. Maybe I should just play Mindslaver or something.
I guess if you dont want to have dumb big guys, then green will not offer you that many options. Indrik Stopmhowler is as efficiant as it gets. Besides Acidic Slim and his big persist brother.
Yeah, maybe you better off if start looking for some crazy artifacts. Or the new Eldrazis...:o
Basically I would lose everything you have under the mana: early acceleration and try to add these on. Rofellos is explosive if you can do something crazy on turn three, not try to cast accelerators. Rofellos is probably better by having untappers instead of searching or making lands drops, hence the suggestions above. Overall the deck is pretty good; kudos.
Extraplanar Lens seems like a sure thing for this deck. It acts as a second copy of Vernal Bloom. Because of this I would also switch over to Snow-Covered Forests to prevent helping your opponents.
Rites of Flourishing seems equally good. Both allowing you to play an extra land and drawing an extra card.
As mentioned before, almost all cut cards are pure threats that just don't do enough to win the game. Seedborn Muse seems like an auto-include, but once you've played with it, it's obvious how redundant the card is. There's very little in the way of instants in this deck, and it's really bad for the muse to get cloned or stolen.
I'm trying out a variety of proactive color hosers (Compost, Carpet of Flowers, and Reap) which seem generally awesome in EDH. And of course Eldrazi are every bit as good as you'd think.
I would play Kozilek, Butcher of Truth if I had one, probably cutting Masticore or Scute Mob for him.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
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I personally hate playing big dumb guys who trade one-for-one with removal spells. In EDH, you have to expect everyone will kill your creatures, so never let them get a fair trade. Nearly every creature in here either generates card advantage or requires a board sweeper to effectively neutralize. The result is a particularly control oriented deck which I've found is very competitive even in large games.
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Mana: Production
32 Forest
1 Oran-rief, the Vastwood
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Sol Ring
Mana: Early Acceleration
1 Nature's Lore
1 Harrow
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Hunting Wilds
1 Vernal Bloom
1 Thousand-year Elixir
1 Gaea's Touch
1 Carpet of Flowers
Mana: Late Acceleration
1 Mana Reflection
1 Patron of the Orochi
Cards: Advantage
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Regal Force
1 Collective Unconscious
1 Soul's Majesty
1 Memory Jar
1 Harmonize
1 Momentous Fall
1 Compost
1 Genesis
1 Regrowth
1 Revive
1 Restock
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reap
Cards: Selection
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Abundance
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Chord of Calling
1 Tooth and Nail
Control: General Purpose
1 Primal Command
1 Stunted Growth
1 Acidic Slime
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Terastodon
1 Tornado
1 Nature's Wrath
1 Damping Matrix
Control: Mana
1 Mwonvuli Acid-moss
1 Reap and Sow
1 Plow Under
1 Ritual of Subdual
1 Sundering Titan
1 Null Rod
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Maze of Ith
1 Splintering Wind
1 Masticore
1 Vigor
1 Cloudthresher
Control: Protection
1 Lightning Greaves
Control: Lifegain
1 Pelakka Wurm
Threats:
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Centaur Glade
1 Nemata, Grove Guardian
1 Scute Mob
1 Panglacial Wurm
1 Squall Line
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 It That Betrays
First let me comment on some green deck staples that are missing, and why:
I don't own one but would play it if I did.
Gauntlet of Power:
Also don't own and would play it if I did.
Sensei's Divining Top:
Sylvan Library and Mirri's Guile are generally better cards because early mana is at a premium in this deck. The top also gets shut down by Null Rod and Damping Matrix. As Top is neutralized by 4 other cards in the deck and by running low on mana, I've stopped playing it.
Gaea's Cradle:
Each forest already produces 2 mana (one from itself and one from Rofellos). For a non-basic land to be better, it needs to make 3 mana. So Cradle is a liability after a Wrath of God and less effective than Forest in the early game.
Omnath, Locus of Mana:
He's just a big, dumb dude who trades with Path to Exile and gets stopped by any regenerater because he can't trample. He's also terrible if you want to spend your mana to cast spells, which the high mana curve on this deck generally wants.
Exploration:
This card is surprisingly less effective than you'd think. It's only really good with 4 lands in hand on turn two. The large amount of land search combined with the power of Rofellos means the deck is tuned to draw 3 lands by turn 3 and maybe 4 lands by turn 4. Exploration is good when the deck is rolling and drawing a lot of cards, but by then you're winning anyway.
Krosan Grip:
This card is a bit too reactive for my tastes, and it's still just a one-for-one trade. I prefer cards like Null Rod, Damping Matrix, and Tornado which handle many cards at once.
Desert Twister:
Even the ability to destroy creatures doesn't make it worth paying 4GG for this effect.
Staff of Domination:
The spike in me feels bad for not playing this card, and I'd play it in a 1v1 tournament. But I just don't have fun when I draw it. Staff + Rofellos + 5 forests is an instant win. With infinite mana, you draw your deck, use Unyaro Bees to do 2 damage to someone, then recycle it with Primal Command. Regrowth the Primal Command to complete the cycle. I'd rather have an awesome turn that makes me 95% likely to win the game than a boring turn that wins 100% of the time.
Umbral Mantle:
Similar comments as Staff of Domination. Getting infinite mana generates turns that just aren't as fun for me. It feels like I have nothing left to work for. Obviously you'd play this in a 1v1 tournament though.
Strip Mine:
Land drops are hugely important for this deck. They cannot be wasted on land destruction. Besides, there are enough other cards in the deck that both destroy lands and develop either the mana base or board position.
There are also some atypical card choices:
Ritual of Subdual:
I cannot express how much of a beating this card is. If you resolve this card with Rofellos in play, you've basically won the game. Doesn't matter how many opponents you have. You just win. The only available outs are signets and disk effects, both of which get shut down by Null Rod. It's also easy to kill the players most likely to have outs first, then turn your later creatures on the less dangerous opponents once the cumulative upkeep gets in the 10+ range.
Nature's Wrath:
Like Ritual of Subdual, this card is also a total beating. The large majority of decks I play use either blue or black, and often both. Resolving this card on turn 3 or 4 almost completely shuts down those decks. Focused blue and black decks just crumple and die. Multicolor decks ends up drawing a lot of dead cards, especially if they haven't developed blue and black early. Note that this card will double trigger on any blue/black creature (like Sharuum the Hegemon) or island/swamp (like Underground Sea). Their only real solution is Nevinyrral's Disk or Oblivion Stone.
Null Rod:
People sure do run a lot of disks and signets. What if a two mana card could completely shut them down, along with Sol Rings and Thran Dynamos? This deck's only liabilities are Lightning Greaves, Memory Jar, and Sol Ring, all of which can be played around.
Damping Matrix:
It won't shut down mana abilities like signets, but it stops a ton of crazy creature abilities and still locks down disks. The only creature liabilities in this deck are Ant Queen, Nemata, Masticore, Patron of the Orichi, Yavimaya Elder, Unyaro Bees, and Silvos. Almost always a strong play.
Tsabo's Web:
It's amazing how many random utility lands people play that just get screwed by this card. It shuts down this deck's Oran-rief and Maze of Ith, but otherwise it's a non-issue. Particularly hilarious against the Mirage fetch lands and Krosan Verge.
Splintering Wind:
An enchant that deals direct damage and produces fliers? Probably the most out of flavor green card ever. But with a bucket of mana, it provides an answer to most creatures and doubles as a threat.
Eternity Vessel:
While not amazing, it will generally deflect attacks elsewhere. People figure that someone will eventually sweep the board. Once the vessel is dead, they can focus attacks on you. What it really does is buy you development time.
There are a number of particular savage combos in this deck as well:
Gaea's Touch + Ritual of Subdual:
Ritual of Subdual sucks if you don't have Rofellos in play. If you're scared of removal, just cast Ritual with a Gaea's Touch in play. Once no one has colored mana left, you can safely sacrifice Gaea's Touch to cast Rofellos and keep the ritual out forever.
Survival of the Fittest + Oracle of Mul Daya:
Is the top card of your deck not land? Just spend G to get a different creature and try again. As a bonus, it stocks your graveyard with targets to get back with the Genesis you just discarded.
Sylvan Library + Abundance
Sylvan Library makes you draw 3 cards, then put back 2 cards you've drawn this turn (unless you pay life). Abundance turns your draws into an effect that puts a land or non-land card into your hand. When you replace the Sylvan Library draws with Abundance, you put 3 cards into your hand and draw 0 cards that turn. Because Sylvan Library can't find cards you've drawn, you just pay 0 life and fail to put anything back. It's like drawing Ancestral Recall every turn.
Chord of Calling + Vigor:
Is there a lot of incoming damage from a Starstorm or Chain Reaction? Or maybe you just decided to swing with your guys into a "fair" combat trade? Pull Vigor from your deck at instant speed and be the only person left with some amazingly large creatures.
Tooth and Nail + Rest of Deck:
Need cards? Put Regal Force and Avenger of Zendikar into play. Need to break a stalemate? Vigor + Masticore will do that, and let you permanently pump your guys too. Do you have a haste effect in play? Get Patron of the Orochi + Eternal Witness so you can cast Tooth and Nail a second time. Just worried about one person recovering board position? Terastodon + Sundering Titan will permanently remove them from the game.
Eternity Vessel + Tornado:
Negate the cumulative life payment on Tornado by constantly resetting your life total. An enchantment with 2G: Vindicate? A little overpowered!
Eternity Vessel + Sylvan Library:
Draw 3 cards a turn. You'll draw a land to reset your life total anyway.
Woodfall Primus + Oran-rief, the Vastwood:
The Primus will keep on persisting when Oran-rief removes his -1/-1 counter.
Splintering Wind + Vigor:
You can spend 2G to put a +1/+1 counter on one of your creatures, then fail to pay the cumulative upkeep which puts a +1/+1 counter on all of your creatures (other than Vigor). Do this up to 5 times a round if you want Vigor to stay in play. Or you can just kill their creatures with it, and still pump your team.
There's still a few cards I'm not totally happy with, mostly the pure threats, but an EDH deck is always a work in progress. Rise of the Eldrazzi should help a good amount.
Regarding the question of whether Rofellos should be banned again, I side with "no". You can play a ton of mana production, but really the best you are doing is playing a bunch of dudes. If opponents save removal for Rofellos, the deck is much slower. This deck also has a big problem with control magic effects (one reason I did not include any indestructible effects). The fact that your deck is mono-green is a bigger drawback than you'd think. But yes, it can get some amazing draws and win games that way. But what deck doesn't intend to win games?
I would like to see Staff of Domination banned though. That card has no healthy purpose in EDH.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
helix pinnacle is usually a good way to end those stupid stalemates pretty quickly, either you win in a turn or 2 or everyone destroys themselves trying to kill you.
I actually played Khamal for a while, but eventually cut him because he's "just another big dude". Combos well with Masticore and/or Splintering Wind though, since you can destroy everyone's land.
Ursapine also has the same "big dude" problem than Khamal has. It's a similar effect to Unyaro Bees, but at least the bees fly and dodge Ensnaring Bridge. It's generally not that useful that you can give any creature +1/+1.
I thought about Helix Pinnacle, but worried it would be too slow without Seedborn Muse in play. In small games, you don't get enough untaps to feed it. And in large games, literally everyone will dogpile you unless you shut them down with Ritual of Subdual. But if you have Ritual out, you've already won. I confess I haven't tried it though, and I can think of a few games where it might have won me the game.
My basic opinion is that if I would never use Survival of the Fittest to search for a creature, it shouldn't be in the deck. Everything needs to fill a role beyond being a "big dumb dude". Same reason for no Primal Crux.
With that in mind, here are the cards I'm least happy with:
Eternity Vessel is a passive card in a fundamentally active deck. I'd rather play something like Pelakka Wurm from RoE.
Rampaging Baloths and Ant Queen fill the role of "get extra dudes into play". The Baloths really depends on additional land play support cards to matter. If you can't play 3 extra lands, he's probably not worth it. I've never searched for this guy.
Ant Queen is more mana efficient than Nemata is, but fills the same role: a sink for an awful lot of mana. Once you are spending 12+ mana per turn, Nemata just puts more damage on the table than Ant Queen due to the sacrifice ability. I've never tutored for Ant Queen for this reason. (To be fair, I've also never searched out Nemata.)
Silvos is just a big dude that dodges some mass removal effects. Unyaro Bees dodges Ensnaring Bridge and ground blockers. But I don't think either of these are sufficient to keep the cards in deck.
Last, it might surprise some people to see Seedborn Muse on the list. The muse isn't that good in this deck unless you have an instant speed mana sink like Centaur Glade, Nemata, or Chord of Calling. There just aren't that many effects to use. And just putting Seedborn Muse in play causes people to clone or steal her, in blue decks that can put untapping to much better effect than I can. She can be a pretty big liability in some matchups. I'd rather cut Muse and the weaker cards that want the Muse in play.
That leaves me with this set of changes:
-1 Eternity Vessel
-1 Rampaging Baloths
-1 Ant Queen
-1 Silvos, Rogue Elemental
-1 Unyaro Bees
-1 Seedborn Muse
+1 Mind's Eye
+1 Pelakka Wurm
+1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
+1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+1 Gauntlet of Power
+1 Momentus Fall
There are two cards that i very much dislike and i would cut for many reasons, one of them is the very same one you mentioned in your first post...They are just big dumbs that just trade.
Eventhough Gigapede is hard to kill, i dont find him effective in this deck.The other is Scute Mob .He just gets huge and thats it. Why not Multani, Maro-Sorcerer or i even preffer Plated Slagwurm than Gigapede
Also, try to update you first post when you do changes in you deck list.
If you think of Survival of the Fittest as a creature tutor only your doing it wrong. The primary play is too use it as a way too put Genesis right into your graveyard, Turning Survival from Tutor to actual card advantage...
Currently 62/265 cards.
The thing is, all the Alliances color hosers are completely brutal. Most are worth main decking if you aren't playing the opposing colors:
I don't know what this deck would do if Tidal Control resolves. I'm pretty sure it's an auto loss, especially in a large group game. Surely SOMEONE can find the 2 mana or 2 life to counter everything I want to cast.
I'm a pretty big fan of Omen of Fire as well.
I think you're right about Gigapede and Scute Mob being two more big dumb dudes that don't advance my win condition (total board control). I don't think Multani, Maro-sorcerer helps either though. I will note that Gigapede is a really solid clock against decks that are light on creatures and heavy on mass removal. But 6 damage a turn doesn't feel substantial enough. I'm never happy to put him into play.
The big benefit of Scute Mob is his one mana price tag. He can easily slip into play early and demand some kind of early removal. Unfortunately, that removal might be Treachery. And beating an opponent down to 10 life before they establish control isn't very helpful-- this deck can easily swing for 40 damage once its established itself.
What about Eldrazi Monument? It dies to artifact removal, but offers a lot of protection. It's a pretty proactive threat.
Other options include more disruption in the form of Dosan the Falling Leaf or Hall of Gemstones. The latter in particular is very hard for many decks to deal with.
I haven't updated the root post because I considered it a record of the actual physical deck I've tested, not what I'd like to build. I will be updating it as I get more cards for it though.
The big problem with Exploration is that it's inherently card disadvantage, in the same way chrome mox and mox diamond are. They accelerate your mana plays, but you never recoup the card itself. In contrast, Harrow costs you two cards (the forest and the harrow) and provides you two cards (two new forests). So you break even.
Harrow also has really good synergy with cards that make forests produce extra mana, such as Vernal Bloom. Harrow generates more mana the turn its cast than an extra land from exploration does.
I have considered playing Explore, however, as it doesn't have the card disadvantage problem. It feels like another copy of Nature's Lore to me.
On the subject of Survival of the Fittest, Genesis is always the first card I get. I thought that interaction was obvious enough that it didn't warrant mentioning. I also didn't mention using Genesis to pay Masticore's upkeep for the same reason.
Wow....Those are some good hosers!!:rofl:
I also like Conversion
I like Dosan..and the Hall of Gemstones. Good disruption spells. How about City of Solitude it will be a Dosan harder to deal with.
I like the Eldrazi Monument but not for your deck. Doest benefit so much off of it. Yopu dont run that many creatures, and the ones you do, you want them to stick around. I dont see you deck having multiples of creatures in play all the time.Plus, i see that you cut some of your token makers. SO, for the monument to work fine you would need to concentrate into token makes a little bit more.
About Gigapede , I was only comparing it to Multani. He is a h e l l of a beatter and have shroud. But i would deft. replace those two for somethin else.How about Verdant Force and it could help if you are trying to run the monument.
I also like Greater Godd to recoup if they are destroying your monsters. Finally some cards i want to point out for being really good on a mono green are Cream of the Crop Reach of Branches and Chameleon Colosus
You are correct that Eldrazi Monument isn't good here unless I get a token generator. What I'm learning is that cards that only work in a combo aren't good cards to play. Same reason I want to cut Eternity Vessel and Rampaging Baloths.
Same problem here. Verdant Force is still just a big, dumb guy, and he's slower at generating creatures than Avenger of Zendikar. Greater Good is only good with a 4+ power creature that you don't actually want in play. I guess it's another way to get rid of Genesis, but that's not this deck's major problem. It just feels too slow.
I considered all of these cards. Cream of the Crop has the same card loss issue that Exploration has, and additionally this deck doesn't put THAT many creatures into play. Reach for Branches costs an awful lot of mana for a 2/5 guy that doesn't really affect this deck's board position. And Chameleon Colossus is yet another Big Dumb Guy. Maybe I should just play Mindslaver or something.
I guess if you dont want to have dumb big guys, then green will not offer you that many options. Indrik Stopmhowler is as efficiant as it gets. Besides Acidic Slim and his big persist brother.
Yeah, maybe you better off if start looking for some crazy artifacts. Or the new Eldrazis...:o
wirewood symbiote - protects rofellos and has crazy syngergy with the deck if you decide to include more elves
concordant crossroad - gives everyone haste which is always a plus for rofellos
sylvan safekeeper - protects rofellos
deranged hermit - has synergy with the symbiote and with Regal force
slate of ancestry - synergy with deranged hermit
quirion ranger - untaps rofellos
scryb ranger - untaps rofellos
umbra mantle - turn 3 win??
Basically I would lose everything you have under the mana: early acceleration and try to add these on. Rofellos is explosive if you can do something crazy on turn three, not try to cast accelerators. Rofellos is probably better by having untappers instead of searching or making lands drops, hence the suggestions above. Overall the deck is pretty good; kudos.
Rites of Flourishing seems equally good. Both allowing you to play an extra land and drawing an extra card.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
-1 Ant Queen
-1 Rampaging Baloths
-1 Gigapede
-1 Silvos, Rogue Elemental
-1 Unyaro Bees
-1 Seedborn Muse
-1 Eternity Vessel
+1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
+1 It That Betrays
+1 Pelakka Wurm
+1 Momentous Fall
+1 Compost
+1 Carpet of Flowers
+1 Reap
As mentioned before, almost all cut cards are pure threats that just don't do enough to win the game. Seedborn Muse seems like an auto-include, but once you've played with it, it's obvious how redundant the card is. There's very little in the way of instants in this deck, and it's really bad for the muse to get cloned or stolen.
I'm trying out a variety of proactive color hosers (Compost, Carpet of Flowers, and Reap) which seem generally awesome in EDH. And of course Eldrazi are every bit as good as you'd think.
I would play Kozilek, Butcher of Truth if I had one, probably cutting Masticore or Scute Mob for him.