I just finished losing in the finals of Fzian's recent 1v1 EDH tournament, and thought I'd post some discussion of my second-place Edric decklist. I'll clean this up a bit later, but I wanted to get thoughts on paper while they're still in mind.
The deck is quite strong (as evidenced by its results) but has some poor choices and changes I would make going into another tournament.
Gameplan
This is a deck where I won't keep any hand that doesn't involve playing a creature on turn one or two. I want to draw a card or two off of Edric on turn three, then build up momentum until I can finish the game with blowouts like Time Warp or massive card advantage and counterspells.
I think the biggest mistake people make with Edric decks is filling them with too many 3+ mana spells and creatures, when you really want most of your cards to be 1-2 mana. Similarly, you want a few counterspells, but don't go crazy. If you play a bunch of cheap creatures, you can draw into your counterspells.
What Worked
The general build of the deck proved quite effective. Treachery was a new addition that proved very powerful. Birthing Pod is criminally underplayed in Edric lists, and won me several games I could not possibly have won otherwise. Opposition was another card which I don't see played that often but singlehandedly won games.
I was glad to be running both Viridian Shaman and Uktabi Orangutan, for dealing with everything from Jittes to Zur's mana rocks. Snap and Foil are both card-disadvantagy free spells that were absolute blowouts every time I played them.
Three Time Warps seemed just about right - I considered cutting one or adding Capture of Jhingzou, but I was happy with how often they showed up as is.
What Didn't
The biggest disappointments were Overrun and Triumph of the Hordes. I've had a lot of luck with them in multiplayer environments, but in 1v1 they were practically blank. I think I won one game with them all tournament. At 30 life, Triumph was occasionally made worse by granting infect.
Daze was okay, but in the end I don't think it's worth the card slot. You want your few counterspells to be hard, and if it's early enough that they don't have mana up you often can't afford to set yourself back a land drop.
Aluren was also a bit questionable - it's incredibly powerful, but many of my opponents got almost as much mileage out of it as I did.
I think my list was a bit heavy on three drops - I really needed to lower my curve just a bit more so I could play multiple creatures on turn four.
Wonder and Loaming Shaman were two cards I cut late in the deckbuilding process and found myself missing during the tournament. Flying is more consistent evasion than I expected, and a little bit of tutorable graveyard hate goes a long way.
Updates
Based on the tournament, new cards printed, and the discussions in this thread, here are the changed I would make to the deck above if I were to join another tournament today:
- Forest
- Aluren
- Overrun
- Triumph of the Hordes
- Daze
- Snakeform
- Coastal Piracy
- Sylvan Ranger
- Coiling Oracle
- Cold-Eyed Selkie
Great job on the tourney and thanks a lot for the writeup. I've been playing Edric for a while and I've just been tuning my list for a while.
I've been contemplating about cutting more counterspells for bodies/disruption but despite all the drawing, it doesn't seem like I'm ever sad to see a counterspell in my hand. I've been keeping the body count around 30 at a minimum.
A couple of cards that I've had good experiences with are Aether Vial and Phantasmal Image. The Aether Vial acts as an additional mana source almost, letting your drop those additional creatures on turn 3/4/5 while keeping counter mana up.
Phantasmal Image is a cheap-costed creature that can result in very important ETB abilities being copied whether its a bounce effect, Eternal Witness, or Viridian Shaman. Also doubles as a general removal spell for 2 mana. The downside has never seemed to be a problem so far.
Just a couple of thoughts. It'd be cool to hear what you think.
It took me a bit to figure out, but I don't think Phantasmal Image had been printed when this tournament started - it took a while. I haven't tried out the card, but will definitely do so. I'm not sure about two drops I can't play on turn two that require other cards, but Image is pretty damn strong.
Aether Vial doesn't seem very good to me. It doesn't seem like it would do much unless you have it on turn one, and I don't like that it doesn't do anything on its own.
I can see Snapcaster in certain builds, but I don't think it would work well in my creature-heavy version. (And obviously, I think the creature-heavy build is superior.)
I'll try taking out a few counters and adding a few more creatures and see how often I wish they were counters. The ones I've been contemplating to take out are Hinder and Spell Crumple just because the mana cost is so high, though they are nice when you can tuck a problematic general.
Definitely going to try Birthing Pod, maybe in place of Aether Vial. I can see why you aren't so hot on Aether Vial but I'm probably just biased since I seem to get that card in my opening hand a lot and when I do, I rarely lose.
I'll try taking out a few counters and adding a few more creatures and see how often I wish they were counters. The ones I've been contemplating to take out are Hinder and Spell Crumple just because the mana cost is so high, though they are nice when you can tuck a problematic general.
Hinder and Spell Crumple seems like pretty good cuts. One of the big advantages you have is that you come out of the gate so fast that you can often ignore other people's generals, or get so far ahead that they become irrelevant. When you counter something like Zur or Kaalia, six mana is so much for them that you don't benefit alot from tucking them. You might as well just run cheaper counters that allow you to play other spells that turn.
Fauna Shaman is amazing - it tutors you up answers when you need them (Viridian Shaman for Jitte, etc) and beats down when you don't. I'd cut Thada or Spawnwrithe before, say, Kira or V-Clique, but both can completely take over games when left unchecked. One hit puts you pretty far ahead, and two can often close out a game completely.
I think I'll try Ovinize. This might already be known but I'll say it anyways, I would say Beast Within does NOT fit in Edric since nothing in Edric trades with a 3/3. Destroying permanents are great but a 3/3 really clogs the board.
Wouldn't Unsummon/Vapor Snag/Word of Undoing be better than either Ovinize or Snakeform?
Pretty much, although Repulse is my suggestion. Of course, my build played Repulse, Unsummon, Vapor Snag, and a plethora of other bounce spells, so...yeah.
play style is called advantage...i mean u can aggro them out with 1/1 fliers or u can control by drawin xx cards or you can "combo" by drawing into multiple time warp effects. it all depends on how many cards you start drawing
Regarding Snakeform, it was probably an overly cute inclusion. I like the spell a lot and have been looking for a deck to run it in, but it's probably not the best use of the slot in Edric. I don't like Repulse much better since they're both three mana cantripping sort-of-removal.
I don't think you want to run too much bounce since you need to be able to maximize the value of cards/mana early game, but I did really appreciate Snap in this build.
It is great build in multiplayer games or not?
I will built my first deck.
This deck is very strong in multiplayer games, but often isn't very fun. Killing everyone before they get a chance to set up is usually frowned upon in multiplayer.
Regarding the deck, how have the more expensive, less evasive creatures played out for you? I realize that you addressed several of them a few posts back (Fauna, Thada, and Spawnwrithe), but have they really provided advantages that are worth losing more one drop slots for? I suppose Spawnwrithe gives you a powerful option to Pod into mid-game, but I'm a bit leery of Pod as well Sounds like it worked out ok for you, though. I'm skeptical of your more mana-intensive choices simply because the standard play evasive 1 drops, drop Edric, draw a billion cards, play Time Walks strategy seems like it could play out a bit smoother without them clogging up opening hands (if, in fact, they do tend to occasionally clog openers).
I don't agree at all with the exclusion of fauna shaman. Survival of the fittest is amazing. It turns that turn 4 llanowar elf that doesn't do anything into a viridian shaman to kill an artifact or a man o war to bounce a creature or a birds of paradise to help catch up on mana development or fetch out edric after getting tucked.
What are your thoughts on the more all-in Edric strategies seen in the decklists posted by Donald, Tedv, and ISBPathfinder (and myself) in the multiplayer forums?
They shun pretty much anything over 2 mana unless it has extreme advantage of some sort.
I can see a lot of the land walking one drops being much more risky in an environment where you aren't guaranteed land walking abilities, but do you have any experience with that faster more direct approach?
What are your thoughts on the more all-in Edric strategies seen in the decklists posted by Donald, Tedv, and ISBPathfinder (and myself) in the multiplayer forums?
They shun pretty much anything over 2 mana unless it has extreme advantage of some sort.
I can see a lot of the land walking one drops being much more risky in an environment where you aren't guaranteed land walking abilities, but do you have any experience with that faster more direct approach?
I did try out that build a bit but liked the slightly slower more versatile build better. It's largely a personal preference, though. If I were to speculate on the actual effect, I would guess that the more "all-in" decks have swingier matchups. More auto-wins, but also more bad pairings, as opposed to my build having more generally even odds. I lost a few games that a faster deck might have won, but I also won some games without ever drawing a card off Edric because of my tutors and versatile 3-drops.
I actually this whole conversation very intersting, because when I was first developing this list I actually considered it pretty "all-in." I was mainly comparing it to lists like the one that won at French Nats, running high-value but expensive guys like Glen Elendra Archmage and Thrun, the Last Troll.
EDIT: I was thinking back to the tournament and how a more aggressive build might have affected my results. I think I probably could have won some matches I lost against hardcore control decks like Grand Arbiter and maybe done a bit better in the swiss. However, I think my top 8 matchups would have been much worse against combo+aggro decks like Animar and Imane. I would definitely stand by my earlier statement that my build improves some bad matchups at the expense of reducing that might otherwise be auto-wins.
I did try out that build a bit but liked the slightly slower more versatile build better. It's largely a personal preference, though. If I were to speculate on the actual effect, I would guess that the more "all-in" decks have swingier matchups. More auto-wins, but also more bad pairings, as opposed to my build having more generally even odds. I lost a few games that a faster deck might have won, but I also won some games without ever drawing a card off Edric because of my tutors and versatile 3-drops.
I actually this whole conversation very intersting, because when I was first developing this list I actually considered it pretty "all-in." I was mainly comparing it to lists like the one that won at French Nats, running high-value but expensive guys like Glen Elendra Archmage and Thrun, the Last Troll.
EDIT: I was thinking back to the tournament and how a more aggressive build might have affected my results. I think I probably could have won some matches I lost against hardcore control decks like Grand Arbiter and maybe done a bit better in the swiss. However, I think my top 8 matchups would have been much worse against combo+aggro decks like Animar and Imane. I would definitely stand by my earlier statement that my build improves some bad matchups at the expense of reducing that might otherwise be auto-wins.
A very interesting and well rationed argument. It's a bit what I expected, but I wanted to see the opinion of someone who had actually played in the 1v1 scene and had experience with it. From playing the all in version enough, if Edric gets denied enough, you just lose. That said, I think there are a few overlooked strengths in it which may help you in future 1v1 scenes.
One of the versatile one drops you're not running, and I think he'd be even more powerful in your deck: Wirewood Symbiote. The all-in decks use him as a kind of riptide lab-esque protection, but you could actually make us of his return and untap ability a lot more. Elvish Pioneer also allows for a T2 edric with a swinger.
Tangle wire is an excellent card as well to extend the early game out and really punish with Edric.
Crop Rotation is an absolute must, in my opinion. Hurts to have it countered (like Harrow), but you can time it for when they are tapped out, and pull up you cradle in a flash. Speaking of, which your deck tuned to slow down a bit, Harrow is a great card. I have a number of times bluffed being color hosed, or having forgotten to hold back counter mana, to use a sol ring + forest to get 2 islands for the counter. I realize sol ring is banned 1v1, but Harrow remains potent.
Have you considered any of the Medallions? Sapphire Medallion looks to be primarily useful in you deck, as it would allow you to drop unblockables for only U. It would also lower the cost of (some of) your counters. Edric is a deck which I see playing multiple spells a turn, which improves the value of medallions. It doesn't run in the all ins, as there are mostly 1 drops, but you have enough of a concentration of colorless costs to make it worthwhile. It also works well with tangle wire.
Overall, glad to see you made it so far, and hope to see the list, or a variation of ti, continue to do well in the future!
[edit] Since you have a heavier mana investment, spiketail drakeling could probably join the hatchling on the lineup. I dunno. I ran him a while and liked him, but then cut costs even more to 1 or 2 only. He's still good, I think.
Thoughts on Standstill? It's been amazing for me, burying the opponent even if his removal spell (or whatever) resolves.
I've played Back to Basics in the Tangle Wire slot, but might work Tangle Wire in. B2B is so good, since the majority of our nonbasics are fetches, it's easy to work around it; and, in a pinch, Snap can help out, along with Garruk in my build.
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
//LANDS
1 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
1 Flooded Grove
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Command Tower
1 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Yavimaya Coast
10 Forest
12 Island
//NONCREATURE NONLANDS
1 Opposition
1 Aluren
1 Birthing Pod
1 Coastal Piracy
1 Cryptic Command
1 Foil
1 Force of Will
1 Daze
1 Turnabout
1 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell
1 Time Warp
1 Notorious Throng
1 Overrun
1 Triumph of the Hordes
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
1 Treachery
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Snakeform
1 Snap
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Arbor Elf
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Spawnwrithe
1 Jhessian Infiltrator
1 Skyshroud Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Thalakos Seer
1 Man-o'-War
1 Wood Elves
1 AEther Adept
1 Trygon Predator
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Boreal Druid
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Plaxmanta
1 Spiketail Hatchling
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pestermite
1 Mystic Snake
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Wirewood Herald
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Acidic Slime
1 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
The deck is quite strong (as evidenced by its results) but has some poor choices and changes I would make going into another tournament.
Gameplan
This is a deck where I won't keep any hand that doesn't involve playing a creature on turn one or two. I want to draw a card or two off of Edric on turn three, then build up momentum until I can finish the game with blowouts like Time Warp or massive card advantage and counterspells.
I think the biggest mistake people make with Edric decks is filling them with too many 3+ mana spells and creatures, when you really want most of your cards to be 1-2 mana. Similarly, you want a few counterspells, but don't go crazy. If you play a bunch of cheap creatures, you can draw into your counterspells.
What Worked
The general build of the deck proved quite effective. Treachery was a new addition that proved very powerful. Birthing Pod is criminally underplayed in Edric lists, and won me several games I could not possibly have won otherwise. Opposition was another card which I don't see played that often but singlehandedly won games.
I was glad to be running both Viridian Shaman and Uktabi Orangutan, for dealing with everything from Jittes to Zur's mana rocks. Snap and Foil are both card-disadvantagy free spells that were absolute blowouts every time I played them.
Three Time Warps seemed just about right - I considered cutting one or adding Capture of Jhingzou, but I was happy with how often they showed up as is.
What Didn't
The biggest disappointments were Overrun and Triumph of the Hordes. I've had a lot of luck with them in multiplayer environments, but in 1v1 they were practically blank. I think I won one game with them all tournament. At 30 life, Triumph was occasionally made worse by granting infect.
Daze was okay, but in the end I don't think it's worth the card slot. You want your few counterspells to be hard, and if it's early enough that they don't have mana up you often can't afford to set yourself back a land drop.
Aluren was also a bit questionable - it's incredibly powerful, but many of my opponents got almost as much mileage out of it as I did.
I think my list was a bit heavy on three drops - I really needed to lower my curve just a bit more so I could play multiple creatures on turn four.
What I Missed
Hinterland Harbor and Invisible Stalker had not been printed when this decklist was submitted, and I would add them in a second.
Wonder and Loaming Shaman were two cards I cut late in the deckbuilding process and found myself missing during the tournament. Flying is more consistent evasion than I expected, and a little bit of tutorable graveyard hate goes a long way.
Updates
Based on the tournament, new cards printed, and the discussions in this thread, here are the changed I would make to the deck above if I were to join another tournament today:
- Forest
- Aluren
- Overrun
- Triumph of the Hordes
- Daze
- Snakeform
- Coastal Piracy
- Sylvan Ranger
- Coiling Oracle
- Cold-Eyed Selkie
+ Hinterland Harbor
+ Delay
+ Gixaxian Probe
+ Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
+ Invisible Stalker
+ Wonder
+ Loaming Shaman
+ Snapcaster Mage
+ Phantasmal Image
+ Survival of the Fittest
Feedback
This is a rough overview, so feel free to post any questions or comments!
I've been contemplating about cutting more counterspells for bodies/disruption but despite all the drawing, it doesn't seem like I'm ever sad to see a counterspell in my hand. I've been keeping the body count around 30 at a minimum.
A couple of cards that I've had good experiences with are Aether Vial and Phantasmal Image. The Aether Vial acts as an additional mana source almost, letting your drop those additional creatures on turn 3/4/5 while keeping counter mana up.
Phantasmal Image is a cheap-costed creature that can result in very important ETB abilities being copied whether its a bounce effect, Eternal Witness, or Viridian Shaman. Also doubles as a general removal spell for 2 mana. The downside has never seemed to be a problem so far.
Just a couple of thoughts. It'd be cool to hear what you think.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Aether Vial doesn't seem very good to me. It doesn't seem like it would do much unless you have it on turn one, and I don't like that it doesn't do anything on its own.
I can see Snapcaster in certain builds, but I don't think it would work well in my creature-heavy version. (And obviously, I think the creature-heavy build is superior.)
Standard :
GBR - GB Wolf Run
UWU - Mage Blade
There's a few cards that I've added but haven't drawn them in a game yet and was wondering what your thoughts on them were: Spawnwrithe, Fauna Shaman, and Thada Adel, Acquisitor.
Definitely going to try Birthing Pod, maybe in place of Aether Vial. I can see why you aren't so hot on Aether Vial but I'm probably just biased since I seem to get that card in my opening hand a lot and when I do, I rarely lose.
I honestly have no idea what this question is asking.
Hinder and Spell Crumple seems like pretty good cuts. One of the big advantages you have is that you come out of the gate so fast that you can often ignore other people's generals, or get so far ahead that they become irrelevant. When you counter something like Zur or Kaalia, six mana is so much for them that you don't benefit alot from tucking them. You might as well just run cheaper counters that allow you to play other spells that turn.
Fauna Shaman is amazing - it tutors you up answers when you need them (Viridian Shaman for Jitte, etc) and beats down when you don't. I'd cut Thada or Spawnwrithe before, say, Kira or V-Clique, but both can completely take over games when left unchecked. One hit puts you pretty far ahead, and two can often close out a game completely.
Pretty much, although Repulse is my suggestion. Of course, my build played Repulse, Unsummon, Vapor Snag, and a plethora of other bounce spells, so...yeah.
What is a play style?
Voltron,Aggro,Control,Combpetc?
Standard :
GBR - GB Wolf Run
UWU - Mage Blade
Aggro control.
I don't think you want to run too much bounce since you need to be able to maximize the value of cards/mana early game, but I did really appreciate Snap in this build.
I will built my first deck.
Standard :
GBR - GB Wolf Run
UWU - Mage Blade
This deck is very strong in multiplayer games, but often isn't very fun. Killing everyone before they get a chance to set up is usually frowned upon in multiplayer.
This deck is Aggro+Control right?
and Could you suggest me which commander play for fun.
Standard :
GBR - GB Wolf Run
UWU - Mage Blade
There's a great thread in the main Commander forum that you should check out if you want opinions on a fun multiplayer commander:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=330401
---
Regarding the deck, how have the more expensive, less evasive creatures played out for you? I realize that you addressed several of them a few posts back (Fauna, Thada, and Spawnwrithe), but have they really provided advantages that are worth losing more one drop slots for? I suppose Spawnwrithe gives you a powerful option to Pod into mid-game, but I'm a bit leery of Pod as well Sounds like it worked out ok for you, though. I'm skeptical of your more mana-intensive choices simply because the standard play evasive 1 drops, drop Edric, draw a billion cards, play Time Walks strategy seems like it could play out a bit smoother without them clogging up opening hands (if, in fact, they do tend to occasionally clog openers).
Have you considered Martyr of Frost? No Flying Men/other blue 1 drop fliers?
They shun pretty much anything over 2 mana unless it has extreme advantage of some sort.
I can see a lot of the land walking one drops being much more risky in an environment where you aren't guaranteed land walking abilities, but do you have any experience with that faster more direct approach?
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I did try out that build a bit but liked the slightly slower more versatile build better. It's largely a personal preference, though. If I were to speculate on the actual effect, I would guess that the more "all-in" decks have swingier matchups. More auto-wins, but also more bad pairings, as opposed to my build having more generally even odds. I lost a few games that a faster deck might have won, but I also won some games without ever drawing a card off Edric because of my tutors and versatile 3-drops.
I actually this whole conversation very intersting, because when I was first developing this list I actually considered it pretty "all-in." I was mainly comparing it to lists like the one that won at French Nats, running high-value but expensive guys like Glen Elendra Archmage and Thrun, the Last Troll.
EDIT: I was thinking back to the tournament and how a more aggressive build might have affected my results. I think I probably could have won some matches I lost against hardcore control decks like Grand Arbiter and maybe done a bit better in the swiss. However, I think my top 8 matchups would have been much worse against combo+aggro decks like Animar and Imane. I would definitely stand by my earlier statement that my build improves some bad matchups at the expense of reducing that might otherwise be auto-wins.
A very interesting and well rationed argument. It's a bit what I expected, but I wanted to see the opinion of someone who had actually played in the 1v1 scene and had experience with it. From playing the all in version enough, if Edric gets denied enough, you just lose. That said, I think there are a few overlooked strengths in it which may help you in future 1v1 scenes.
One of the versatile one drops you're not running, and I think he'd be even more powerful in your deck: Wirewood Symbiote. The all-in decks use him as a kind of riptide lab-esque protection, but you could actually make us of his return and untap ability a lot more. Elvish Pioneer also allows for a T2 edric with a swinger.
Tangle wire is an excellent card as well to extend the early game out and really punish with Edric.
Crop Rotation is an absolute must, in my opinion. Hurts to have it countered (like Harrow), but you can time it for when they are tapped out, and pull up you cradle in a flash. Speaking of, which your deck tuned to slow down a bit, Harrow is a great card. I have a number of times bluffed being color hosed, or having forgotten to hold back counter mana, to use a sol ring + forest to get 2 islands for the counter. I realize sol ring is banned 1v1, but Harrow remains potent.
Have you considered any of the Medallions? Sapphire Medallion looks to be primarily useful in you deck, as it would allow you to drop unblockables for only U. It would also lower the cost of (some of) your counters. Edric is a deck which I see playing multiple spells a turn, which improves the value of medallions. It doesn't run in the all ins, as there are mostly 1 drops, but you have enough of a concentration of colorless costs to make it worthwhile. It also works well with tangle wire.
Overall, glad to see you made it so far, and hope to see the list, or a variation of ti, continue to do well in the future!
[edit] Since you have a heavier mana investment, spiketail drakeling could probably join the hatchling on the lineup. I dunno. I ran him a while and liked him, but then cut costs even more to 1 or 2 only. He's still good, I think.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I've played Back to Basics in the Tangle Wire slot, but might work Tangle Wire in. B2B is so good, since the majority of our nonbasics are fetches, it's easy to work around it; and, in a pinch, Snap can help out, along with Garruk in my build.