So white one drops are done. Everyone submitted a top ten list, I gave each card a desending amount of points (a top vote got 10, a second vote 9, etc). Here are all the cards getting at least 10 points with their average rank across all 21 lists:
Debateable placements thus far:
Spectral Procession as a three drop (and a creature). All spells just creating tokens (like Call of the Herd) will be similarly classified as creatures.
Exalted Angel as a 3 drop
Kor Sanctifiers as a 3 drop
Spectral Lynx as a white creature
Momentary Blink as a white spell
Some notes on the voting:
Mother of Runes actually received 13 first place votes to Isamaru's 8, but Isamaru was rarely ranked lower than 2 while poor Mom dropped as low as 6th on some lists.
Suntail Hawk might have ranked a tad higher but seemed to split votes with Lantern Kami.
A handful of voters ranked Savanah Lions over Elite Vanguard.
Goldmeadow Harrier seemed to have the most variance, ranking as high as two and as low as not ranked at all.
Some notes on the voting:
8.5 tails got the most top votes, but also got a 15 vote and a no vote. Ethersworn Canonist didn't make anyone's list, except for one voter who ranked it 1. Silver Knight was the only creature to appear on every list (amazingly).
All votes for identical creatures (like Mistral Charger and Stormfront Pegasus) were ordered alphabetically, so the higher vote went to Mistral Charger no matter what. Similar creatures of different types were not reordered. see discussion for details.
The top four vote getters all made everyone's list (as did Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker). Exalted Angel only got one ranking below 13, which was a 2. Soltari Champion was the only card not in the top three to get a top vote.
Calciderm got the most top votes (8) and not vote below 4th. Academy Rector was the only other card to get multiple top votes (5) but had votes ranging all the way down to not listed. There was clear disagreement after the top four, as every card thereafter had at least four people not even vote for it. Hokori was the only card out of the big four to get a number one vote. Voice of All missed the cut, but actually had more votes than Commander Eesha, whose few voters thought very highly of it (top vote was third).
Baneslayer came as the closest of any card yet to running the table at #1; only two votes out of the top spot, and they both were number two (and both in favor of Reveillark). There was pretty clear agreement in 2-4, though not in their ordering. Reveillark got the most one votes, but got dragged down by two people putting it as the 8th best white 5 drop.
Yosei came out on top of the big three by running away with 7 top votes. Akroma and Eternal Dragon were the only two other cards to make ever list. Pristine Angel was the only card outside of the big three to receive a one vote.
Some notes on the voting:
Land Tax and Swords had quite a battle for first, with every first vote going to one or the other. Four people ranked Path To Exile above Swords to Plowshares. Enlightened Tutor edged out Harm's Way despite being left off a list completely. There was generally not too much variance, except on Porphyry Nodes, which mostly got bottom of the list votes except for two people who ranked it 5th.
Our first perfect score! Not too shocking I suppose. Not too much to discuss here except for the #2 votes given to Luminarch Ascension and Pacifism. None of the cards left off got any high votes (Miltia's Pride was the first card left off). Also, someone really dislikes Temporal Isolation, leaving it off his list completely.
After Oblivion Ring, which all but four ranked first and the rest ranked second, we were all over the place. Glorious Anthem and Scepter of Dominance received a lot of high votes, but also some 10th place votes were even each left off a list completely. Everyone put Prison Term on their list, but no one put it higher than 3rd, and many had it 8th or below. Pulse of the Fields was helped out by a first place vote, but even a first place vote couldn't get Rule of Law on the list, which received no other votes.
There was some confusion on how to rank the two Armageddon effects, but I think they actually ended up placed very well. I felt the need to include the Marshal's Anthem result, and to inform viewers that many of us have not gotten to test out the card yet, so it's ranking may change. 4CC white goes eight deep with bombs that almost everyone can agree on. After that, we were a bit split.
Pretty good stuff here. Sadly we were absolutely no help to people trying to decide between Austere Command and Rout. I will tell you that Rout's voting was a bit more steady, where Austere Command got left off a list, and ranked at the top of another. Only one other card listed got left off anyone's list, and that was Shining Shoal, which barely beat out Righteous Fury, Winds of Rath and Final Judgment for the final spot. I was very impressed at the respect given to Miraculous Recovery in the face of all these Wrath effects. Well ranked gentlemen. Well ranked.
Won't functional duplicates be a problem? The results could be skewed downwards for these cards, as happened with Hawk/Kami.
How are we supposed to rank them, taking 2 slots or just one? What if you think only one is needed?
Well, when they are different creature types I think they have to be ranked separately. I will try to note this as above so people can make informed choices. Fuctional reprints such as Armageddon and Ravages of Was will be ranked together.
I can't believe anyone ranked momma as low as 6. I can maybe see it as #2 under Isamaru (maybe) but #6? In some cubes it might not matter but in any cube with Captain of the Watch, which is reasonable to cube with, Elite Vanguards is strictly better so I'd say overall as a resource for new cube builders Elite Vanguards > Savanna Lions.
Well, when they are different creature types I think they have to be ranked separately. I will try to note this as above so people can make informed choices. Fuctional reprints such as Armageddon and Ravages of Was will be ranked together.
Even functional reprints might not be best to group together. For example having one copy of armageddon is really important, but the second less so. I'm not really sure how to handle that.
Even functional reprints might not be best to group together. For example having one copy of armageddon is really important, but the second less so. I'm not really sure how to handle that.
I could tell people which one to rank first, but this might fall under micromanaging. It's a good thought though.
Damn send it in a couple of minutes to late. Hope it can still count.
You just missed it, but all the ranking positions would have stayed the same (though the averages would have changed slightly). Don't despair though, go do your top 15 2 and 3 drops so they'll count!
I would just let the votes fall how they may. If functional reprints both deserve to be ranked highly, then both will end up on the list so long as people vote for them. Voting for 'best' cards shouldn't take into account whether or not there is already another functionally identical card in the pool, and really should fall in consecutive slots, since they are the same, and neither is better/worse. If we rank one higher than the other, it should be based on availability (Armageddon higher than Ravages of War).
e.g. If the Armageddon effect is so important and powerful, then everyone who votes for one of the cards should put the second card right after it in their list
1. ~
2. ~
3.~
4. Armageddon
5. Ravages of War
6-10. ~
If Ravages of war was simply combined with 'geddon, then the list we report wouldn't describe the best 10 cards (in this case) but the best 11.
Minstral Charger and Stormfront Pegasus should probably have their votes added together and divided by two to see where the both of them deserve to be.
For example
Say that Minstral Charger gets 7.5/10 and Stormfront Pegasus gets 6.5/10. Since the cards are the same, they should be ranked consecutively, neither is better or worse than the other, and there is no way that any cards should fall between them on the list. So they would average out to (7.5+6.0)/2 = 7.0/10 and should be ranked as such.
You can't do that. For example, I don't think that Kami of Ancient Law and Ronom Unicorn belong back to back on the list. It's more important to have one in the cube than both, so in my "top 15", one will rank higher than the other.
You can't do that. For example, I don't think that Kami of Ancient Law and Ronom Unicorn belong back to back on the list. It's more important to have one in the cube than both, so in my "top 15", one will rank higher than the other.
IIRC, functional reprints in the rankings for colors were done in the same line as the original card. (4. Armageddon/Ravages of War.)
Those were power rankings though. These are rankings of cube inclusion, so adding a second card of the same function is not always done at the same time as the first. Again though, I'll make a note of it in the final rankings. These are meant to be a helpful tool.
Those were power rankings though. These are rankings of cube inclusion, so adding a second card of the same function is not always done at the same time as the first. Again though, I'll make a note of it in the final rankings. These are meant to be a helpful tool.
How is inclusion defined? Is it by how often people use it in their cubes or how highly a card should rank in its casting cost for inclusion?
I think having a distinction ends up taking up extra space because, for the most part, it'll push something else out of the top X cards and having more useful information is more useful than saying "more people run Armageddon than Ravages."
How is inclusion defined? Is it by how often people use it in their cubes or how highly a card should rank in its casting cost for inclusion?
The way I described it in the voting thread is "if someone told you they wanted to run X white 1 drops in their cube, what would you recommend"? I think the distinction between functional reprints is important, though the voting process might not be perfect for it. But in very small cubes, you might not really know when to run the second Armageddon or Wildfire or whatever, so maybe this will help.
The way I described it in the voting thread is "if someone told you they wanted to run X white 1 drops in their cube, what would you recommend"? I think the distinction between functional reprints is important, though the voting process might not be perfect for it. But in very small cubes, you might not really know when to run the second Armageddon or Wildfire or whatever, so maybe this will help.
Right, and that's why I say that Ronom Unicorn makes the top 10 list, but the 2nd one (Kami of Ancient Law) may not make the cut unless you're using more than 10 white 2-drops. That's why I can't vote: #8 Unicorn/Kami.
I agree that you can't just lump the reprints together into one vote.
It's hard to tally, but one way to do it is to call each card by it's 'better' named version and add a number designator. IE, Elite Vanguard = Elite Vanguard #1, Savannah Lions = Elite Vanguard #2. A higher ranking in a person's list of either card should be assumed to be the #1 version of that reprinted card, and a lower ranked version would be #2. So if two people have them in a separate order (for a strange reason), Elite Vanguard #1 will be the clear frontrunner, and Elite Vanguard #2 will show its logical place for someone adding more cards to their cube (say, if for example someone were to go from 4 1-drops in their cube to 5, and Savannah Lions was the number 5 ranked 1-drop). If you don't want to choose which card to use as the card's name, you could make it whichever comes first alphabetically (which does not take into account card characteristics).
The same situation works for a number of the reprints, like Armageddon.
Or, you could just have the votes come out however they do, and in the results make it clear that cards with functional reprints are likely to be more important to include, perhaps so much that they eek out other cards higher on the list. That way it is more of a judgement call on the cube maker.
I prefer a version of the former though, as it can give an insight into when to fit that second Borderland Ranger into the cube. I don't think that should pose that much of a problem, as there aren't too many cubeworthy functional reprints per casting cost. Good cards are usually so unique that they don't have an equal.
2CC results are up. A lot less agreement than 1CC. I gave all the higher votes to Mistral Charger for those who voted Stormfront Pegasus higher. I didn't change Kami and Ronom Unicorn votes, as they are different creature types.
2 and 3CC ranks are up, as well as a section for questionable placements (so cards like spectral procession are easy to find, and we can debate them easier when we revisit the rankings).
I think the biggest surpise was seeing how high Knight of the White Orchid came in.
Looks like i need to add that to cube pronto.
I'm shocked as well. I never liked that the fixing was attached to a WW creature. I much preferred Sigil Paladin, which didn't even make the list, so I'll have to revisit.
Debateable placements thus far:
Spectral Procession as a three drop (and a creature). All spells just creating tokens (like Call of the Herd) will be similarly classified as creatures.
Exalted Angel as a 3 drop
Kor Sanctifiers as a 3 drop
Spectral Lynx as a white creature
Momentary Blink as a white spell
WHITE:
Creatures:
1CC
Isamaru, Hound of Konda (9.28)
Mother of Runes (9.05)
Elite Vanguard (8.0)
Savannah Lions (7.04)
Goldmeadow Harrier (5.3)
Weathered Wayfarer (4.61)
Steppe Lynx (3.8)
Akrasan Squire (2.8)
Icatian Javelineers (1.38)
Soul Warden (0.66)
Burrenton Forge-Tender (0.57)
Soltari Foot Soldiers (0.52)
Suntail Hawk (0.52)
Martyr of Sands (0.46)
Some notes on the voting:
Mother of Runes actually received 13 first place votes to Isamaru's 8, but Isamaru was rarely ranked lower than 2 while poor Mom dropped as low as 6th on some lists.
Suntail Hawk might have ranked a tad higher but seemed to split votes with Lantern Kami.
A handful of voters ranked Savanah Lions over Elite Vanguard.
Goldmeadow Harrier seemed to have the most variance, ranking as high as two and as low as not ranked at all.
Thoughts?
2CC (with their average ranking out of 15)
Soltari Priest (11.1)
Soltari Monk (10.5)
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (9.75)
Knight of the White Orchid (8.85)
Knight of Meadowgrain (8.7)
Silver Knight (8.25)
Kor Skyfisher (6.85)
Soltari Trooper (6.3)
White Knight (5.9)
Mistral Charger (5.45)
Spectral Lynx (4.35)
Kami of the Ancient Law (3.95)
Stormfront Pegasus (3.8)
Ronom Unicorn (3.5)
Whipcorder (2.8)
Blade of the Sixth Pride (2.45)
Serra Avenger (2.3)
Knight of the Holy Nimbus (1.5)
Some notes on the voting:
8.5 tails got the most top votes, but also got a 15 vote and a no vote. Ethersworn Canonist didn't make anyone's list, except for one voter who ranked it 1. Silver Knight was the only creature to appear on every list (amazingly).
All votes for identical creatures (like Mistral Charger and Stormfront Pegasus) were ordered alphabetically, so the higher vote went to Mistral Charger no matter what. Similar creatures of different types were not reordered. see discussion for details.
3CC (avg out of 15)
Exalted Angel (13.9)
Mirror Entity (12.3)
Spectral Procession (11.71)
Paladin en-Vec (11.41)
Soltari Champion (11.29)
Flickerwisp (8.64)
Kor Sanctifiers (8.18)
Stonecloaker (7.12)
Mystic Crusader (6.59)
Pianna, Nomad Captain (5.88)
Aven Riftwatcher (4.76)
Soltari Visionary (4.47)
Cloudchaser Kestral (2.7)
Descendant of Kiyomaro (2.41)
Mangara of Corondor (2.23)
Riftmarked Knight (1.65)
Outrider en-Kor (1.41)
Some notes on the voting:
The top four vote getters all made everyone's list (as did Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker). Exalted Angel only got one ranking below 13, which was a 2. Soltari Champion was the only card not in the top three to get a top vote.
4CC (avg out of 10)
Calciderm (9.2)
Academy Rector (7.27)
Celestial Crusader (7.07)
Galepowder Mage (7.00)
Emeria Angel (4.14)
Hokori, Dust Drinker (3.8)
Guardian Seraph (2.67)
Ranger of Eos (2.4)
False Prophet (1.53)
Commander Eesha (1.27)
Windborn Muse (1.27)
Wall of Reverence (1.2)
Magus of the Tabernacle (1.13)
Guardian of the Guildpact (1.07)
Some notes on the voting:
Calciderm got the most top votes (8) and not vote below 4th. Academy Rector was the only other card to get multiple top votes (5) but had votes ranging all the way down to not listed. There was clear disagreement after the top four, as every card thereafter had at least four people not even vote for it. Hokori was the only card out of the big four to get a number one vote. Voice of All missed the cut, but actually had more votes than Commander Eesha, whose few voters thought very highly of it (top vote was third).
5CC (avg out of 10)
Baneslayer Angel (9.87)
Cloudgoat Ranger (8.2)
Karmic Guide (7.07)
Reveillark (7.07)
Battlegrace Angel (5.47)
Archon of Justice (4.87)
World Queller (3.87)
Conqueror's Pledge (3.07)
Blinding Angel (1.13)
Glory (1.13)
Some notes on the voting:
Baneslayer came as the closest of any card yet to running the table at #1; only two votes out of the top spot, and they both were number two (and both in favor of Reveillark). There was pretty clear agreement in 2-4, though not in their ordering. Reveillark got the most one votes, but got dragged down by two people putting it as the 8th best white 5 drop.
6CC (avg out of 7)
Yosei, the Morning Star (5.87)
Akroma, Angel of Wrath (5.8)
Eternal Dragon (5.07)
Captain of the Watch (2.87)
Pristine Angel (2.4)
Iona, Shield of Emeria (1.6)
Twilight Shepherd (1.2)
Adarkar Valkyrie (0.9)
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (0.9)
Some notes on the voting:
Yosei came out on top of the big three by running away with 7 top votes. Akroma and Eternal Dragon were the only two other cards to make ever list. Pristine Angel was the only card outside of the big three to receive a one vote.
Spells: (all avg's out of 10)
1CC
Land Tax (9.5)
Swords to Plowshares (9.1)
Path to Exile (8.3)
Enlightened Tutor (5.85)
Harm's Way (5.5)
Mana Tithe (4.0)
Condemn (3.7)
Orim's Chant (3.6)
Tithe (2.3)
Porphyry Nodes (1.15)
Sunlance (1.1)
Some notes on the voting:
Land Tax and Swords had quite a battle for first, with every first vote going to one or the other. Four people ranked Path To Exile above Swords to Plowshares. Enlightened Tutor edged out Harm's Way despite being left off a list completely. There was generally not too much variance, except on Porphyry Nodes, which mostly got bottom of the list votes except for two people who ranked it 5th.
2CC
Balance (10.0)
Journey to Nowhere (8.1)
Temporal Isolation (6.7)
Disenchant (6.2)
Honor of the Pure (5.5)
Seal of Cleansing (5.3)
Momentary Blink (3.6)
Pacifism (3.5)
Luminarch Ascension (2.0)
Otherwordly Journey (1.5)
Crusade (1.3)
Some notes on the voting:
Our first perfect score! Not too shocking I suppose. Not too much to discuss here except for the #2 votes given to Luminarch Ascension and Pacifism. None of the cards left off got any high votes (Miltia's Pride was the first card left off). Also, someone really dislikes Temporal Isolation, leaving it off his list completely.
3CC
Oblivion Ring (9.6)
Glorious Anthem (6.6)
Scepter of Dominance (6.5)
Prison Term (4.7)
Arrest (3.9)
Sacred Mesa (3.5)
Ghostly Prison (2.9)
Griffin Guide (2.5)
Wing Shards (2.5)
Story Circle (2.2)
Pulse of the Fields (1.9)
Dismantling Blow (1.3)
Exile (1.3)
Some notes on voting:
After Oblivion Ring, which all but four ranked first and the rest ranked second, we were all over the place. Glorious Anthem and Scepter of Dominance received a lot of high votes, but also some 10th place votes were even each left off a list completely. Everyone put Prison Term on their list, but no one put it higher than 3rd, and many had it 8th or below. Pulse of the Fields was helped out by a first place vote, but even a first place vote couldn't get Rule of Law on the list, which received no other votes.
4CC
Armageddon (9.3)
Wrath of God (8.3)
Elspeth, Knight Errant (6.9)
Moat (6.3)
Day of Judgement (6.2)
Faith's Fetters (4.3)
Ravages of War (4.3)
Ajani Goldmane (4.2)
Parrallax Wave (1.8)
Cataclysm (1.1)
Marshal's Anthem (0.9)
Some thoughts on voting:
There was some confusion on how to rank the two Armageddon effects, but I think they actually ended up placed very well. I felt the need to include the Marshal's Anthem result, and to inform viewers that many of us have not gotten to test out the card yet, so it's ranking may change. 4CC white goes eight deep with bombs that almost everyone can agree on. After that, we were a bit split.
5+CC
Catastrophe (8.7)
Decree of Justice (7.7)
Akroma's Vengence (7.3)
Martial Coup (7.3)
Austere Command (6.0)
Rout (6.0)
Miraculous Recovery (4.4)
Hallowed Burial (3.4)
Shining Shoal (1.7)
Some notes on voting:
Pretty good stuff here. Sadly we were absolutely no help to people trying to decide between Austere Command and Rout. I will tell you that Rout's voting was a bit more steady, where Austere Command got left off a list, and ranked at the top of another. Only one other card listed got left off anyone's list, and that was Shining Shoal, which barely beat out Righteous Fury, Winds of Rath and Final Judgment for the final spot. I was very impressed at the respect given to Miraculous Recovery in the face of all these Wrath effects. Well ranked gentlemen. Well ranked.
Won't functional duplicates be a problem? The results could be skewed downwards for these cards, as happened with Hawk/Kami.
How are we supposed to rank them, taking 2 slots or just one? What if you think only one is needed?
Well, when they are different creature types I think they have to be ranked separately. I will try to note this as above so people can make informed choices. Fuctional reprints such as Armageddon and Ravages of Was will be ranked together.
Even functional reprints might not be best to group together. For example having one copy of armageddon is really important, but the second less so. I'm not really sure how to handle that.
I could tell people which one to rank first, but this might fall under micromanaging. It's a good thought though.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
You just missed it, but all the ranking positions would have stayed the same (though the averages would have changed slightly). Don't despair though, go do your top 15 2 and 3 drops so they'll count!
e.g. If the Armageddon effect is so important and powerful, then everyone who votes for one of the cards should put the second card right after it in their list
2. ~
3.~
4. Armageddon
5. Ravages of War
6-10. ~
If Ravages of war was simply combined with 'geddon, then the list we report wouldn't describe the best 10 cards (in this case) but the best 11.
Minstral Charger and Stormfront Pegasus should probably have their votes added together and divided by two to see where the both of them deserve to be.
For example
Say that Minstral Charger gets 7.5/10 and Stormfront Pegasus gets 6.5/10. Since the cards are the same, they should be ranked consecutively, neither is better or worse than the other, and there is no way that any cards should fall between them on the list. So they would average out to (7.5+6.0)/2 = 7.0/10 and should be ranked as such.
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Yeah, that's exactly what I did for my vote.
But the top 9 in the vote was excactly the 9 cards i run, so I don't think I would have changed anything.
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Those were power rankings though. These are rankings of cube inclusion, so adding a second card of the same function is not always done at the same time as the first. Again though, I'll make a note of it in the final rankings. These are meant to be a helpful tool.
Isn't Lantern Kami slightly better because of Rend Flesh or is there a reason to go bird?
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How is inclusion defined? Is it by how often people use it in their cubes or how highly a card should rank in its casting cost for inclusion?
I think having a distinction ends up taking up extra space because, for the most part, it'll push something else out of the top X cards and having more useful information is more useful than saying "more people run Armageddon than Ravages."
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
The way I described it in the voting thread is "if someone told you they wanted to run X white 1 drops in their cube, what would you recommend"? I think the distinction between functional reprints is important, though the voting process might not be perfect for it. But in very small cubes, you might not really know when to run the second Armageddon or Wildfire or whatever, so maybe this will help.
Right, and that's why I say that Ronom Unicorn makes the top 10 list, but the 2nd one (Kami of Ancient Law) may not make the cut unless you're using more than 10 white 2-drops. That's why I can't vote: #8 Unicorn/Kami.
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It's hard to tally, but one way to do it is to call each card by it's 'better' named version and add a number designator. IE, Elite Vanguard = Elite Vanguard #1, Savannah Lions = Elite Vanguard #2. A higher ranking in a person's list of either card should be assumed to be the #1 version of that reprinted card, and a lower ranked version would be #2. So if two people have them in a separate order (for a strange reason), Elite Vanguard #1 will be the clear frontrunner, and Elite Vanguard #2 will show its logical place for someone adding more cards to their cube (say, if for example someone were to go from 4 1-drops in their cube to 5, and Savannah Lions was the number 5 ranked 1-drop). If you don't want to choose which card to use as the card's name, you could make it whichever comes first alphabetically (which does not take into account card characteristics).
The same situation works for a number of the reprints, like Armageddon.
Or, you could just have the votes come out however they do, and in the results make it clear that cards with functional reprints are likely to be more important to include, perhaps so much that they eek out other cards higher on the list. That way it is more of a judgement call on the cube maker.
I prefer a version of the former though, as it can give an insight into when to fit that second Borderland Ranger into the cube. I don't think that should pose that much of a problem, as there aren't too many cubeworthy functional reprints per casting cost. Good cards are usually so unique that they don't have an equal.
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Looks like i need to add that to cube pronto.
I was already planning on cutting Samurai of the Pale Curtain. Makes the decision real easy now.
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I'm shocked as well. I never liked that the fixing was attached to a WW creature. I much preferred Sigil Paladin, which didn't even make the list, so I'll have to revisit.