I'm not sure I even know what's being asked when someone asks me that, so I don't even know how to answer it. Like, I'm not really sure what aspect of my country I'm being asked if I love. It could refer to:
The geographical area bounded by my country's borders
The people who live in my country
The values held by the people of my country
The values that I think were held by the founders of my country
My country's government
Famous people from my country
My country's devotion to a specific religion
The founding documents of my country
Products made in my country
My country's military strength
My country's intervention in the affairs of the world for causes we consider justified
Does it mean any of those? All of those?
And if someone would ask me if I were proud to be a member of my country, I think I'd have to answer "No". I don't see why that is something I should be particularly proud of. I didn't accomplish anything by being born in my country, why should I be proud of that? It's just happenstance, right?
So what do you think? Do you love your country? Are you proud to be a __(insert demonym for your country here)___? What do these questions mean to you?
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"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." --Carl Sagan
From being asked this exact question many times over the past couple of years, it's safe to say that when the majority of those people ask me whether I'm proud of being a member of my country, they really ask "Are you willing to defend your country's actions?"
I live in the United States. Someone asks me whether I'm proud of being an American. Let's say that that someone thinks that Congress being divided into two different sections (the House and the Senate) is utterly stupid and ridiculous. The fact that Congress is divided as such doesn't affect my daily life, and as it doesn't influence my daily decisions at all, I don't feel the need to defend this bicameral (wrong word maybe?) system. This lack of obligation pretty much makes me answer "no" to me being a "proud American".
As for whether I like the US, sure. I don't know whether the environment in which the question is asked affects the meaning of the question, but I usually assume they ask the standard "Do you like the living conditions in your country?" I don't find anything particularly concerning about the way I live right now, and that's why I answer that question with a positive response.
But perhaps I haven't had enough experience with people asking me these questions. That's just my experience.
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I didnt support the last couple wars America forced down the world throat, but I did support the soldiers doing what they were trained to do and told to do.
I dont feel capitalism as it is right now in America is working for the masses. I can never remember seeing and hearing about so many on hard times.
But in the area I am living, I can do as I wish for the most part and live as I wish. (I live in a rural area where my closest neighbor is about a mile away). If I want to jump on a snowmobile at 1AM and ride around full throttle, no one bothers me. If I want to have a fire and some friends over and play my music loud, no one bothers us.
I think the best part of America is you can find the way of life that appeals to you the best.
I am comfortable where I am in America, but I am not always happy how things are handled in this country.
I do root for America in the Olympics though. Does that count?
Our way of life, liberties, values, ability for self-actualization, personal achievement, all near the top of the list.
We have many many problems that need fixin' for sure.
As Bo said, you can choose what you like here. You like big city, we got that, rural farms, got that too. You want liberal values, there are places for that, you want religious values, got that too. You want manufacturing and hard work, got it. You want leisure living and poolside cocktails, got it.
All these things we have, and not just for tourists, but for anyone who wants it and is willing to go get it for themselves.
I was never one for loyalty to the country. The older I got the harder it was for me to think of any country as more than a rock with a name tagged to it.
So what do you think? Do you love your country? Are you proud to be a __(insert demonym for your country here)___? What do these questions mean to you?
I considered replying (with the typical "I love my country and fear/am in awe of/question government within what's reasonable") and appreciate how productive it is to define 'country', but what does 'loving' one's country mean?
A country is more than the soil under you feet, boarders shift this way and that, but the land stays the same. Loving the land is not loving the country.
A country is more than its government, they to change frequently, yet the countries remain throughout. No gaggle of politicians, dictators, monarchs, or shadow men can hold the true nature of a country. For even should they be impeached, imprisoned, banished or executed; the country may yet survive.
A country is more than the things it makes. Pride in hard work is good, but the fruits of your labour don't define you, you define them.
A country is more than the might of its military. For if the military were to turn on its citizens, it would be turned out and rejected in the hearts of the people.
A country is more than any one person. Even though they may find purchase on the world stage, they are nothing more than a part of the whole.
A country is more than the people who call it home. For even as numerous as they are, they to are temporary, passing like grains of sand.
A country is nothing more than an idea. So delicate that the slightest whisper could break it, but so strong that at times millions would lay down their lives to preserve it.
To love your country is to love that idea, nothing more and nothing less. For all the pride or hatred that you may feel for those other things, they are immaterial when placed before the idea.
I considered replying (with the typical "I love my country and fear/am in awe of/question government within what's reasonable") and appreciate how productive it is to define 'country', but what does 'loving' one's country mean?
Hmmmm...it's a huge question, with many layers, but I'll do my best.
I love my country...
I love my fellow countrymen, I would fight to protect their freedoms, and their lives.
I love the ideal of the melting pot of cultures, where people from all walks of life can share a community together.
I believe my fellow countrymen (and yes, all the people of the world) have a right to speak their minds, vote their consciences, choose their own friends, protest their grievances, practice whatever religion they believe in, be safe from warrantless searches and seizures of property from the government, own without undue subversion the fruits of their labor, I love it's constitution, and would die to defend it.
I love that the people here were given a chance, after the country was established, to control themselves and their government, and not the other way around.
I know we have our faults, but I believe that fixing those faults while a long and arduous process binds us together stronger and forever.
I love the scenery we have, from deserts to lush forests, from plains to mountain peaks, you can spend a lifetime and not see everything this country has to be seen.
I believe that here, anything IS possible if you work hard and never give up. The sky's the limit.
In spite of the disdain I have for the corrupt politico we have seen grow over the last 70+ years, I believe our form of government, with it's checks and balances, is the framework that will provide a remedy for the people to take their power back from the grasp of greedy corporate dogs.
There are many countries in the world where the people have virtually no hope of releasing the stranglehold of their government regimes - we at least have hope, we can hold our leaders responsible, we can change the course of things, though failure to do so is always a possibility.
that's about it for now.
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Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Hmmmm...it's a huge question, with many layers, but I'll do my best.
Thank you for that reply. To define 'country' or an aspect of it is truly well and good, but what do you even mean by 'love'?
As a general comment, though anyone can see how it could be a comment on your reply, I abhor violent conflict and am baffled by the frequency that 'fight', 'die', etc. appear in discourse. Sorry for being from the Antipodes.
A country is more than the soil under you feet, boarders shift this way and that, but the land stays the same. Loving the land is not loving the country.
A country is more than its government, they to change frequently, yet the countries remain throughout. No gaggle of politicians, dictators, monarchs, or shadow men can hold the true nature of a country. For even should they be impeached, imprisoned, banished or executed; the country may yet survive.
A country is more than the things it makes. Pride in hard work is good, but the fruits of your labour don't define you, you define them.
A country is more than the might of its military. For if the military were to turn on its citizens, it would be turned out and rejected in the hearts of the people.
A country is more than any one person. Even though they may find purchase on the world stage, they are nothing more than a part of the whole.
A country is more than the people who call it home. For even as numerous as they are, they to are temporary, passing like grains of sand.
A country is nothing more than an idea. So delicate that the slightest whisper could break it, but so strong that at times millions would lay down their lives to preserve it.
To love your country is to love that idea, nothing more and nothing less. For all the pride or hatred that you may feel for those other things, they are immaterial when placed before the idea.
Thank you for that reply. To define 'country' or an aspect of it is truly well and good, but what do you even mean by 'love'?
Well, love is just an emotion. An emotion which, when given respect, drives one to do things.
Rarely is it quantifiable, and seldom is it something anyone can prove to another.
However, because I "love" my wife, I'll rub her feet, and I hate feet. I hate feet so much man.
I'll work hard to pay the rent, and work is rarely fun.
I'll hold her and assure her of her beauty, and how much she means to me.
I'll remind her how tough she is, and how all her sacrifices were not in vain, that our lives are better for it.
I'll fight and die to protect her and our son if ever danger came their way.
So, I'll pay my taxes, and contribute to the community, and do my job. I'll remind my country that it's awesome, and has so much potential and promise, and I will encourage it to achieve those ideals.
I'll remind it that it must make good on it's promises, and that the blood and sweat and tears of those who came before should not be in vain, and will not be in vain as long as we do not lose sight of the ideals we were founded upon.
...things like that.
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Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Well, love is just an emotion. An emotion which, when given respect, drives one to do things.
Rarely is it quantifiable, and seldom is it something anyone can prove to another.
However, because I "love" my wife, I'll rub her feet, and I hate feet. I hate feet so much man.
I'll work hard to pay the rent, and work is rarely fun.
I'll hold her and assure her of her beauty, and how much she means to me.
I'll remind her how tough she is, and how all her sacrifices were not in vain, that our lives are better for it.
I'll fight and die to protect her and our son if ever danger came their way.
So, I'll pay my taxes, and contribute to the community, and do my job. I'll remind my country that it's awesome, and has so much potential and promise, and I will encourage it to achieve those ideals.
I'll remind it that it must make good on it's promises, and that the blood and sweat and tears of those who came before should not be in vain, and will not be in vain as long as we do not lose sight of the ideals we were founded upon.
...things like that.
Thanks for the interesting and evidently a thought-out response.
Till now, I thought I loved my country because I respected the national identity and culture, its laws, and whatnot. As I continued to think laterally and critically about this, I realised that there are other viewpoints and means of loving your country and I do none of those, at least for the purpose of loving my country. There is a subtle difference between loving your country and patriotism, and while I may do the former, I am no patriot. I get pride and being moved from within to do things, but it all has to be reasonable and not totally illogical, like dogma (even this might be considered dogma, though).
In terms of how I love my country, a Google search has yielded a wikiHow article on this ('How to Love Your Country'). Well, checking off things on that list,
I am an active citizen only because it benefits me and my community, I have never conceptualized my being an active citizen as being for the country.
I have not studied the history of my country since a time before a time when people undertake SATs (two years before graduating?) and O Levels.
I take an interest in current affairs insofar as I can tolerate it all and if it interests me or is of public relevance.
I am being frank here, but the Antipodes have a short history and, besides the mythology of those that preceded us, there is not much in the way of stories, tall tales, and patriotic legends. In fact, of those that there are, most of them have been completely debunked, so that ruins them totally.
Equally disappointing, the countries haven't produced many heroes. To me, Rutherford and Florey, besides winning Nobels, did great things for the world and must be recognized for their contributions.
The rest I don't do. The last thing is largely because of demands of work and that good ol' work ethic. The penultimate thing is partially because I don't know where to buy a flag; it's in-your-face and poor taste; I risk the flag being defaced or destroyed.
Definitely, I agree that paying taxes are important to the governance, administration and good functioning of the country, but could you ever simply see it as something you do and leave it at that?
Furthermore, (just asking and trying to think like you or anyone else who wants to answer; not cruising for a verbal bruising or a debate) at what point would you think national pride or love for country is unhealthy or excessive?
I think this 2010 article in Peace Review by a Michael Parenti may be interesting to read, but I have no expertise in this area (poli. sci.?) or of Peace Review. The author attempts to do something similar to this thread; that is, to define what is what is loving one's country, from which you can answer the question as a un-/qualified yes or no.
I've always found the idea of national pride and patriotism...well, stupid. Sorry if that offends anyone. I've just always felt like these ideas create division amongst all the people of the world. They drive a wedge between people and get in the way of humanity coming together peacefully.
I feel like community and country are two very different things. In my mind community is a good thing that can benefit us all, and if people could get over their stupid crap we could have a global community that could benefit everyone. The idea of country is about borders and separation and conflict and in the end isn't going to bring humanity together. We all live in the same place, it's a planet and geographic borders aren't real, they are man made constructs to keep various communities separate.
I think it's also really dumb to be proud of where you were born as you had no say in the matter and had absolutely noting to do with creating said country. I feel lucky I was born where I was, there's some really crappy places in this world and I'm really glad I live in a place with such a high standard of living. But I don't think luck is anything to be proud of.
This topic reminds me of this joke. Slightly off topic but in the same neighborhood and it shows just how absurd some of these types of ideas are.
I've always found the idea of national pride and patriotism...well, stupid. Sorry if that offends anyone. I've just always felt like these ideas create division amongst all the people of the world. They drive a wedge between people and get in the way of humanity coming together peacefully.
That is sort of what I have been trying to imply, albeit in the grand old British way (i.e., understated and subtle).
I feel like community and country are two very different things. In my mind community is a good thing that can benefit us all, and if people could get over their stupid crap we could have a global community that could benefit everyone. The idea of country is about borders and separation and conflict and in the end isn't going to bring humanity together. We all live in the same place, it's a planet and geographic borders aren't real, they are man made constructs to keep various communities separate.
Yeah, exactly.
This sort of thought obviously goes for other things too.
I've had to answer the question 'do I love my country?' before and I mulled it over for quite some time.
My search was prompted by the all to common catch-cry of 'If you/they don't like it, then you/they can leave!' (or 'go home', if the person doesn't look white enough), when responding to criticism on a broad range of topics; from anti-corruption sentiment to government mismanagement, or even from pointing out police incompetence to pretty much anything to do with politics or religion (ie. non-christian religions).
I saw that many who held that point of view also held themselves as patriotic, proudly flying little flags from their cars and perhaps sporting Australia-themed tattoos. I realised that their Australia was not my Australia and that I could not love whatever it was that they held so dear.
I thought on what I learnt of history, about the rise and fall of nations, of oppression and revolution, of migration and those who sought refuge, and throughout it all I saw that even if the land was taken, the army defeated, and the people enslaved and/or driven half-way around the world, the identity of those people's nationality lingered (sometimes for centuries). And sometimes those people returned, or rose up and reclaimed their land, rebuilt their homes and renewed what it was to be a part of their country.
I came to the conclusion that the only thing that mattered when loving your country was to see the greatness of what could be and to what little you could to push ever closer to that future, regardless of what was happening in the now, or has happened in the past.
And yes, I've seen people tell indigenous Australians to 'go home'.
Well when asked if i love my country? I suppose i'd say yes. But not from nationalist ideas or propaganda. I'd say I love my country because living here is a great thing, I'm not to fond of the governing party but it is available to me to try and change that via vote, I am fond of the people here, the country side and its beauty, the fact that post 2ndary schooling is subsidized by the gov, That I live in a safe and stable region where i am mostly free of fear from radical and violent action. Sure Canada is not prefect but no country is and one that said it was i would be suspect of. But in spite of its imperfections i do love it here, and here is Canada so i must also love Canada.
I do love my country. It's amazingly beautiful (the Western and Northern parts, anyway), it's peaceful, and in terms of standard of living it's pretty much #1 in the world. Of course, this is mostly because we're blessed with all kinds of natural resources, but I also think it's because the policies here.
Like a religion, a country is nothing more than an excuse for people to bundle up together, and justify atrocities and amoral behaviour towards people outside this group. This idea that actions are justified because they protect this "great other", be it a cause, religion or a country, is atrocious. It is naught but a method to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions.
The sooner people realize that there is no great other, no end to justify the means, and that they and they only are responsible for their own actions, the world will be a much better place.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Like a religion, a country is nothing more than an excuse for people to bundle up together, and justify atrocities and amoral behaviour towards people outside this group. This idea that actions are justified because they protect this "great other", be it a cause, religion or a country, is atrocious. It is naught but a method to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions.
The sooner people realize that there is no great other, no end to justify the means, and that they and they only are responsible for their own actions, the world will be a much better place.
Very well put, I couldn't agree more.
A number of people have pointed out that their country is beautiful. I don't think that's a good reason justify national pride. Our whole planet is beautiful, there's amazing things to be seen and appreciated no matter where you live. If we could get rid of all the borders and bull **** surrounding the idea of countries then it would be a lot easier for all of us to experience everything this planet has to offer, not just what's geographically close to us.
The issue is not that we disagree, because you're absolutely right. There is beauty, wildlife, and friendly people living all over the world.
However, the reality we live in is this - all the available rocks already have flags jammed in them. Unfortunately, those flags mean something to the people in power, and many times to the people who live under them.
So while a boundless utopia void of nation states sounds great sometimes - right now, we have countries. I wouldn't want to live in Somalia, or North Korea, or Myanmar, no matter how beautiful a waterfall might be contained therein, or how cool a few individuals I find living there might be.
However, the reality we live in is this - all the available rocks already have flags jammed in them. Unfortunately, those flags mean something to the people in power, and many times to the people who live under them.
So while a boundless utopia void of nation states sounds great sometimes - right now, we have countries. I wouldn't want to live in Somalia, or North Korea, or Myanmar, no matter how beautiful a waterfall might be contained therein, or how cool a few individuals I find living there might be.
Yes, I agree with that, I do think it's important to live in the now, which is why I mentioned that I'm glad I was born where I was. However I also think that just saying "well this is how it is so lets just accept it" is akin to sticking your head in the sand, and nothing changes when that happens. I think speaking out against these stupid ideas at least plants the seeds to change.
I've always found the idea of national pride and patriotism...well, stupid. Sorry if that offends anyone. I've just always felt like these ideas create division amongst all the people of the world. They drive a wedge between people and get in the way of humanity coming together peacefully.
I love my dog. I feel responsible for him, and try to ensure his well being to the best of my ability. My neighbors feel the same way about their dogs. But there's no reason that this should create division amongst us. I know and like their dogs, and wish them all the best, and will willingly help them out if they need it. And they of course feel the same way about mine. The distinction between "my dog" and "my neighbor's dog" is simply one of commitment and primary responsibility, not one of conflict and antipathy.
You're attached to the stuff where you live, whether it's the country you live in or the dog who lives with you. You try to take care of it, because, y'know, you have to live there. You don't have the same attachment to other places, but that's okay, not because you don't give a damn about them, but rather because the people who do live there are taking care of them.
If we could get rid of all the borders and bull **** surrounding the idea of countries then it would be a lot easier for all of us to experience everything this planet has to offer, not just what's geographically close to us.
I think the lack of teleporter technology bears more of the blame for that one.
Sorry but that's a terrible analogy. My dog is like a cross between a child and a possession. She is mine and mine alone and hogging her all to myself doesn't affect anyone else in any way. I was here before her and it's my job to provide for her and take care of her. I do not live on my dog and neither does anyone else.
I do care about and am attracted to things where I live, which is a planet, not a city or a state or a country. In my mind we are all in this together.
And it's not a lack of teleported tech that keeps me from going to certain places. There are these awesome things called airplanes and they allows us to visit literally any place on the surface of the planet we want. I don't go to places like the Middle East, for example, because many of the people there wouldn't see a fellow human who just wants to see something new when they meet me, they'd see American scum and want to kill me. And the idea of borders and nations and all that nonsense just keeps those kinds of ideas going instead of allowing us to move past all that crap.
And it's not a lack of teleported tech that keeps me from going to certain places. There are these awesome things called airplanes and they allows us to visit literally any place on the surface of the planet we want. I don't go to places like the Middle East, for example, because many of the people there wouldn't see a fellow human who just wants to see something new when they meet me, they'd see American scum and want to kill me. And the idea of borders and nations and all that nonsense just keeps those kinds of ideas going instead of allowing us to move past all that crap.
I think that the internet allows for more interaction with humanity that would otherwise have been much more scarce. But since it is still a relatively new in the scale of human history, regionalism still exists. I think that due to globalization and the internet that eventually regionalism might become a smaller thing.
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I'm not sure I even know what's being asked when someone asks me that, so I don't even know how to answer it. Like, I'm not really sure what aspect of my country I'm being asked if I love. It could refer to:
And if someone would ask me if I were proud to be a member of my country, I think I'd have to answer "No". I don't see why that is something I should be particularly proud of. I didn't accomplish anything by being born in my country, why should I be proud of that? It's just happenstance, right?
So what do you think? Do you love your country? Are you proud to be a __(insert demonym for your country here)___? What do these questions mean to you?
I live in the United States. Someone asks me whether I'm proud of being an American. Let's say that that someone thinks that Congress being divided into two different sections (the House and the Senate) is utterly stupid and ridiculous. The fact that Congress is divided as such doesn't affect my daily life, and as it doesn't influence my daily decisions at all, I don't feel the need to defend this bicameral (wrong word maybe?) system. This lack of obligation pretty much makes me answer "no" to me being a "proud American".
As for whether I like the US, sure. I don't know whether the environment in which the question is asked affects the meaning of the question, but I usually assume they ask the standard "Do you like the living conditions in your country?" I don't find anything particularly concerning about the way I live right now, and that's why I answer that question with a positive response.
But perhaps I haven't had enough experience with people asking me these questions. That's just my experience.
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I didnt support the last couple wars America forced down the world throat, but I did support the soldiers doing what they were trained to do and told to do.
I dont feel capitalism as it is right now in America is working for the masses. I can never remember seeing and hearing about so many on hard times.
But in the area I am living, I can do as I wish for the most part and live as I wish. (I live in a rural area where my closest neighbor is about a mile away). If I want to jump on a snowmobile at 1AM and ride around full throttle, no one bothers me. If I want to have a fire and some friends over and play my music loud, no one bothers us.
I think the best part of America is you can find the way of life that appeals to you the best.
I am comfortable where I am in America, but I am not always happy how things are handled in this country.
I do root for America in the Olympics though. Does that count?
Not always the government though.
Our way of life, liberties, values, ability for self-actualization, personal achievement, all near the top of the list.
We have many many problems that need fixin' for sure.
As Bo said, you can choose what you like here. You like big city, we got that, rural farms, got that too. You want liberal values, there are places for that, you want religious values, got that too. You want manufacturing and hard work, got it. You want leisure living and poolside cocktails, got it.
All these things we have, and not just for tourists, but for anyone who wants it and is willing to go get it for themselves.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
I considered replying (with the typical "I love my country and fear/am in awe of/question government within what's reasonable") and appreciate how productive it is to define 'country', but what does 'loving' one's country mean?
A country is more than its government, they to change frequently, yet the countries remain throughout. No gaggle of politicians, dictators, monarchs, or shadow men can hold the true nature of a country. For even should they be impeached, imprisoned, banished or executed; the country may yet survive.
A country is more than the things it makes. Pride in hard work is good, but the fruits of your labour don't define you, you define them.
A country is more than the might of its military. For if the military were to turn on its citizens, it would be turned out and rejected in the hearts of the people.
A country is more than any one person. Even though they may find purchase on the world stage, they are nothing more than a part of the whole.
A country is more than the people who call it home. For even as numerous as they are, they to are temporary, passing like grains of sand.
A country is nothing more than an idea. So delicate that the slightest whisper could break it, but so strong that at times millions would lay down their lives to preserve it.
To love your country is to love that idea, nothing more and nothing less. For all the pride or hatred that you may feel for those other things, they are immaterial when placed before the idea.
Hmmmm...it's a huge question, with many layers, but I'll do my best.
I love my country...
I love my fellow countrymen, I would fight to protect their freedoms, and their lives.
I love the ideal of the melting pot of cultures, where people from all walks of life can share a community together.
I believe my fellow countrymen (and yes, all the people of the world) have a right to speak their minds, vote their consciences, choose their own friends, protest their grievances, practice whatever religion they believe in, be safe from warrantless searches and seizures of property from the government, own without undue subversion the fruits of their labor, I love it's constitution, and would die to defend it.
I love that the people here were given a chance, after the country was established, to control themselves and their government, and not the other way around.
I know we have our faults, but I believe that fixing those faults while a long and arduous process binds us together stronger and forever.
I love the scenery we have, from deserts to lush forests, from plains to mountain peaks, you can spend a lifetime and not see everything this country has to be seen.
I believe that here, anything IS possible if you work hard and never give up. The sky's the limit.
In spite of the disdain I have for the corrupt politico we have seen grow over the last 70+ years, I believe our form of government, with it's checks and balances, is the framework that will provide a remedy for the people to take their power back from the grasp of greedy corporate dogs.
There are many countries in the world where the people have virtually no hope of releasing the stranglehold of their government regimes - we at least have hope, we can hold our leaders responsible, we can change the course of things, though failure to do so is always a possibility.
that's about it for now.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
As a general comment, though anyone can see how it could be a comment on your reply, I abhor violent conflict and am baffled by the frequency that 'fight', 'die', etc. appear in discourse. Sorry for being from the Antipodes.
Whoa. That was inspired.
How did you come up with that?
Well, love is just an emotion. An emotion which, when given respect, drives one to do things.
Rarely is it quantifiable, and seldom is it something anyone can prove to another.
However, because I "love" my wife, I'll rub her feet, and I hate feet. I hate feet so much man.
I'll work hard to pay the rent, and work is rarely fun.
I'll hold her and assure her of her beauty, and how much she means to me.
I'll remind her how tough she is, and how all her sacrifices were not in vain, that our lives are better for it.
I'll fight and die to protect her and our son if ever danger came their way.
So, I'll pay my taxes, and contribute to the community, and do my job. I'll remind my country that it's awesome, and has so much potential and promise, and I will encourage it to achieve those ideals.
I'll remind it that it must make good on it's promises, and that the blood and sweat and tears of those who came before should not be in vain, and will not be in vain as long as we do not lose sight of the ideals we were founded upon.
...things like that.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Thanks for the interesting and evidently a thought-out response.
Till now, I thought I loved my country because I respected the national identity and culture, its laws, and whatnot. As I continued to think laterally and critically about this, I realised that there are other viewpoints and means of loving your country and I do none of those, at least for the purpose of loving my country. There is a subtle difference between loving your country and patriotism, and while I may do the former, I am no patriot. I get pride and being moved from within to do things, but it all has to be reasonable and not totally illogical, like dogma (even this might be considered dogma, though).
In terms of how I love my country, a Google search has yielded a wikiHow article on this ('How to Love Your Country'). Well, checking off things on that list,
Furthermore, (just asking and trying to think like you or anyone else who wants to answer; not cruising for a verbal bruising or a debate) at what point would you think national pride or love for country is unhealthy or excessive?
I think this 2010 article in Peace Review by a Michael Parenti may be interesting to read, but I have no expertise in this area (poli. sci.?) or of Peace Review. The author attempts to do something similar to this thread; that is, to define what is what is loving one's country, from which you can answer the question as a un-/qualified yes or no.
I feel like community and country are two very different things. In my mind community is a good thing that can benefit us all, and if people could get over their stupid crap we could have a global community that could benefit everyone. The idea of country is about borders and separation and conflict and in the end isn't going to bring humanity together. We all live in the same place, it's a planet and geographic borders aren't real, they are man made constructs to keep various communities separate.
I think it's also really dumb to be proud of where you were born as you had no say in the matter and had absolutely noting to do with creating said country. I feel lucky I was born where I was, there's some really crappy places in this world and I'm really glad I live in a place with such a high standard of living. But I don't think luck is anything to be proud of.
This topic reminds me of this joke. Slightly off topic but in the same neighborhood and it shows just how absurd some of these types of ideas are.
Yeah, exactly.
This sort of thought obviously goes for other things too.
I've had to answer the question 'do I love my country?' before and I mulled it over for quite some time.
My search was prompted by the all to common catch-cry of 'If you/they don't like it, then you/they can leave!' (or 'go home', if the person doesn't look white enough), when responding to criticism on a broad range of topics; from anti-corruption sentiment to government mismanagement, or even from pointing out police incompetence to pretty much anything to do with politics or religion (ie. non-christian religions).
I saw that many who held that point of view also held themselves as patriotic, proudly flying little flags from their cars and perhaps sporting Australia-themed tattoos. I realised that their Australia was not my Australia and that I could not love whatever it was that they held so dear.
I thought on what I learnt of history, about the rise and fall of nations, of oppression and revolution, of migration and those who sought refuge, and throughout it all I saw that even if the land was taken, the army defeated, and the people enslaved and/or driven half-way around the world, the identity of those people's nationality lingered (sometimes for centuries). And sometimes those people returned, or rose up and reclaimed their land, rebuilt their homes and renewed what it was to be a part of their country.
I came to the conclusion that the only thing that mattered when loving your country was to see the greatness of what could be and to what little you could to push ever closer to that future, regardless of what was happening in the now, or has happened in the past.
And yes, I've seen people tell indigenous Australians to 'go home'.
Like a religion, a country is nothing more than an excuse for people to bundle up together, and justify atrocities and amoral behaviour towards people outside this group. This idea that actions are justified because they protect this "great other", be it a cause, religion or a country, is atrocious. It is naught but a method to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions.
The sooner people realize that there is no great other, no end to justify the means, and that they and they only are responsible for their own actions, the world will be a much better place.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Very well put, I couldn't agree more.
A number of people have pointed out that their country is beautiful. I don't think that's a good reason justify national pride. Our whole planet is beautiful, there's amazing things to be seen and appreciated no matter where you live. If we could get rid of all the borders and bull **** surrounding the idea of countries then it would be a lot easier for all of us to experience everything this planet has to offer, not just what's geographically close to us.
However, the reality we live in is this - all the available rocks already have flags jammed in them. Unfortunately, those flags mean something to the people in power, and many times to the people who live under them.
So while a boundless utopia void of nation states sounds great sometimes - right now, we have countries. I wouldn't want to live in Somalia, or North Korea, or Myanmar, no matter how beautiful a waterfall might be contained therein, or how cool a few individuals I find living there might be.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Yes, I agree with that, I do think it's important to live in the now, which is why I mentioned that I'm glad I was born where I was. However I also think that just saying "well this is how it is so lets just accept it" is akin to sticking your head in the sand, and nothing changes when that happens. I think speaking out against these stupid ideas at least plants the seeds to change.
You're attached to the stuff where you live, whether it's the country you live in or the dog who lives with you. You try to take care of it, because, y'know, you have to live there. You don't have the same attachment to other places, but that's okay, not because you don't give a damn about them, but rather because the people who do live there are taking care of them.
I think the lack of teleporter technology bears more of the blame for that one.
Oh, awesome, both a New Zealander and a Norwegian are here! Fight over your fjords! Please?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I do care about and am attracted to things where I live, which is a planet, not a city or a state or a country. In my mind we are all in this together.
And it's not a lack of teleported tech that keeps me from going to certain places. There are these awesome things called airplanes and they allows us to visit literally any place on the surface of the planet we want. I don't go to places like the Middle East, for example, because many of the people there wouldn't see a fellow human who just wants to see something new when they meet me, they'd see American scum and want to kill me. And the idea of borders and nations and all that nonsense just keeps those kinds of ideas going instead of allowing us to move past all that crap.
I think that the internet allows for more interaction with humanity that would otherwise have been much more scarce. But since it is still a relatively new in the scale of human history, regionalism still exists. I think that due to globalization and the internet that eventually regionalism might become a smaller thing.