(I'm not sure if this is going to turn into a debate, but feel free to move it if the discussion moves in that direction)
In the past couple months, between me and my girlfriend we have witnessed three separate cases of a long friendship being completely cut off because a Christian decided they couldn't be friends with someone different than them. In two cases it was because the other friend was an atheist, in one case it was because the other person was gay.
Now, I read through the hilarious (to me) facebook exchanges in one case where a Christian was getting all preachy and judgmental of the atheist- you know, when they start speaking in King James version English on facebook. The atheist in this case was being extremely mature and basically just begging her friend to not let an issue like this come between their friendship, and stating over and over again how she respected her beliefs. But the Christian kept coming back with the old sanctimonious tirades about Jesus and souls and such. As far as I know they are no longer friends.
Recently I have been noticing a lot of behavior like this. There was a little scandal over a gay issue at my school and I was shocked at how many people I thought were progressive young individuals were actually prejudiced against homosexuality. The real problem seemed to be the Evangelical youth groups that they were all a part of that drove their viewpoints.
Have I been overestimating the enlightenment of the new generation? Have you seen any examples of young Christians discriminating? Are my recent personal experiences just out of the ordinary flukes?
Religion is not part of the new generation. You were witnessing exceptions, minorities and abnormalities. Don't worry, it is a dying breed.
I don't know if that's entirely true. Less people than ever are religious, yeah, but youth are generally less religious than adults anyway, so the difference isn't quite as pronounced as it may seem.
But yes, I agree that within 30 years, religious people will be the minority (and in some places, they already are).
I went to a Catholic university. My group of friends consisted of Catholics, other denominations of Christianity, atheists, homosexuals, you name it. We all got along great, and any disputes had nothing to do with religion or sexual orientation. It obviously isn't the same everywhere.
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A tier 3 Legacy deck was named after me. What have you done with your life?
LogicX: post images of the exchanges with the names redacted, post some specifics from actual news or at least some kind of anecdote, or this thread amounts to nothing more than bad mouthing a few anonymous Christians.
Really, think about what you're doing.
And if you noticed an exchange between a couple of people, doesn't exactly mean that there is some kind of humongous social trend going on of anti-atheist persecution.
LogicX: post images of the exchanges with the names redacted, post some specifics from actual news or at least some kind of anecdote, or this thread amounts to nothing more than bad mouthing a few anonymous Christians.
Really, think about what you're doing.
And if you noticed an exchange between a couple of people, doesn't exactly mean that there is some kind of humongous social trend going on of anti-atheist persecution.
I really couldn't care less if you believe me, and I have no intention to be posting my facebook friends conversations on this website without their knowledge.
I know Christians who disowned their friends because they are atheists or came out of the closet. Take that how you will. My experiences aren't meant to be the end all talking point of this thread, but rather serve as the impetus for discussion about whether this is a larger issue.
"More accepting" doesn't mean "everyone globally accepts everyone else." There will always be bigots, and the only real generational differences are the number of bigots floating around and the groups which they can legally or socially discriminate against. The problem is that old, bigoted beliefs tend to die very hard, so things like widespread acceptance of atheism, gay people, etc are slow coming even with new generations being overall more accepting than older ones.
But if we can get past the days of "no Irish need apply" to the point where saying something like that would be patently absurd, we can get to the point where atheism and homosexuality are simply seen as normal and that discrimination against such is likewise absurd.
LogicX, You've basically done the equivalent of starting a thread "I've notice that Christians we know are *******s who persecute gays and atheists lately... Please discuss... Oh and btw, let me mock the way one of the Christians quoted King James Bible like some kind of stereotype... Their ignorance was HILARIOUS. With sanctimonious tirades, blah blah... I think it's those little Evangelical groups causing this. Have you noticed what bigots Christians are?"
I'd say that's a fairly accurate summary.
We get it. You dont like Christians. Whatever.
Quote from LogicX »
In the past couple months, between me and my girlfriend we have witnessed three separate cases of a long friendship being completely cut off because a Christian decided they couldn't be friends with someone different than them. In two cases it was because the other friend was an atheist, in one case it was because the other person was gay.
Now, I read through the hilarious (to me) facebook exchanges in one case where a Christian was getting all preachy and judgmental of the atheist- you know, when they start speaking in King James version English on facebook. The atheist in this case was being extremely mature and basically just begging her friend to not let an issue like this come between their friendship, and stating over and over again how she respected her beliefs. But the Christian kept coming back with the old sanctimonious tirades about Jesus and souls and such. As far as I know they are no longer friends.
Recently I have been noticing a lot of behavior like this. There was a little scandal over a gay issue at my school and I was shocked at how many people I thought were progressive young individuals were actually prejudiced against homosexuality. The real problem seemed to be the Evangelical youth groups that they were all a part of that drove their viewpoints.
Have I been overestimating the enlightenment of the new generation? Have you seen any examples of young Christians discriminating? Are my recent personal experiences just out of the ordinary flukes?
Just because the focal points of the media show a more accepting generation does not indicate that the entire generation is more accepting. Yes religion has declined in young people, but that does not mean that the people who are still religious are more accepting.
Basically, what Dcarist said.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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LogicX, You've basically done the equivalent of starting a thread "I've notice that Christians we know are *******s
I'm not sure what the "*****" is supposed to represent or how it relates to my post.
who persecute gays and atheists lately... Please discuss...
Cutting off all contact with someone because they are gay or an atheist is not a bad thing?
Oh and btw, let me mock the way one of the Christians quoted King James Bible like some kind of stereotype...
Any atheist who has debated a Christian knows how annoying it is when someone quotes bible versus at you as if they hold weight over you.
Their ignorance was HILARIOUS. With sanctimonious tirades, blah blah...
Facebook comments are normally idiotic. Now imagine a facebook argument from someone whose only study of philosophy and theology comes from sunday school. Yeah, it was pretty funny. The atheist wasn't even responding to their arguments though, she was just trying to say that she wished they could agree to disagree.
I think it's those little Evangelical groups causing this.
They were all members of an Evangelical youth group. The gay issue at my school was started by an Evangelical youth group.
Have you noticed what bigots Christians are?"
In this case yes they were.
I'd say that's a fairly accurate summary.
I'd say you are just in this topic to antagonize me and the hyperbole of your "summary" proves it.
Was their bigotry a result of them bring Christian, or were they simply inclined towards bigotry and are simply using their religion as an outlet for it? Because I assure you, there are plenty of progressive religious people who look in dismay upon bigoted members of their religion giving the religion a bad image. A blanket statement like "have you noticed what bigots Christians are?" (something you didn't dispute, but defended) only serves to try and erase those people.
It's like when someone says "have you ever noticed what fat, smelly, antisocial neckbeards Magic players are?" I mean, sure, there are some Magic players who fit that description, but the majority does not. It doesn't matter if someone does or doesn't fit that description in a single case, because they're two wholly independent things that shouldn't really be put together like that. Same thing with the Christian bigots you're complaining about.
dcartist, if you read LogicX's posts, you would understand that he's trying to express how absurd it is that someone would make broad-based generalizations about an entire populace, and how much more absurd it is to then, based on such presumptions, go on to judge, discriminate against, and reject such groups of people.
And if you can't understand that, then you have no business replying to a thread created for the purpose of bashing Christians.
You obviously don't understand the message of tolerance that's being conveyed.
Was their bigotry a result of them bring Christian, or were they simply inclined towards bigotry and are simply using their religion as an outlet for it? Because I assure you, there are plenty of progressive religious people who look in dismay upon bigoted members of their religion giving the religion a bad image. A blanket statement like "have you noticed what bigots Christians are?" (something you didn't dispute, but defended) only serves to try and erase those people.
I was explaining my position, I didn't feel like going through the nitty gritty of his ridiculous post and rewriting each sentence he got wrong. Don't presume that the words he put in my mouth are accurate. I wouldn't throw blanket statements around about all Christians being bigots, but I clarified that in this these specific individuals were.
How should I judge how to answer your question? One explicitly stated they couldn't be friends with someone who had rejected Jesus. In the other case I heard that they claimed they thought homosexuality was immoral because they were Christian and couldn't be that persons friend. Does that answer your question?
It's like when someone says "have you ever noticed what fat, smelly, antisocial neckbeards Magic players are?" I mean, sure, there are some Magic players who fit that description, but the majority does not. It doesn't matter if someone does or doesn't fit that description in a single case, because they're two wholly independent things that shouldn't really be put together like that. Same thing with the Christian bigots you're complaining about.
I wasn't saying the majority of Christians are bigots, I was questioning my previous belief that bigotry would be all but eradicated with the new generation of Christians due to an unexpected flurry of bigotry that I witnessed in my own life, and inquiring about other people's experiences.
You obviously don't understand the message of tolerance that's being conveyed.
I'll be honest... I don't understand the "message of tolerance" that's being conveyed. Could someone explain how The OP was a "message of tolerance" and not what DCartist thought (and myself to be honest).
As a conservative Christian who has no issue associating with people who disagree with my convictions, I can confirm that there are certainly very narrow minded Christians out there. But there have always been narrow minded, even bigoted, people in general all throughout history. It certainly isn't a trait unique to Christians; it is, sadly an aspect of human nature.
About Christians: things among the younger Christians ARE changing. More and more are taking a deeper look at the issues, comparing them to Jesus' teachings, and concluding that their forebears didn't exactly get things right.
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I'll be honest... I don't understand the "message of tolerance" that's being conveyed. Could someone explain how The OP was a "message of tolerance" and not what DCartist thought (and myself to be honest).
It's one of those open-ended messages without a direct activity for further prevention, it is instead a complaint that drives a conversation towards tolerance; that is, that's what I got from the OP.
Honestly, though, I think it becomes a more important question for the religious than the areligious (or Christians rather than the non-Christians, if you prefer), I'll admit it gets really annoying seeing other people using the name of God to drive their bigotry, when my highest spiritual priority is to do the exact opposite sort of thing.
It's one of those open-ended messages without a direct activity for further prevention, it is instead a complaint that drives a conversation towards tolerance; that is, that's what I got from the OP.
"Open-ended" is what I intended the thread to be. If I came off as insulting it was intended only against the bigots whose behavior I found so disgusting.
I wouldn't throw blanket statements around about all Christians being bigots, but I clarified that in this these specific individuals were.
Using wording that signals tacit agreement with the quoted statement.
I wasn't saying the majority of Christians are bigots, I was questioning my previous belief that bigotry would be all but eradicated with the new generation of Christians due to an unexpected flurry of bigotry that I witnessed in my own life, and inquiring about other people's experiences.
It's worth noting that the official position of the largest Christian denomination denies even gender equality, to say nothing of its homophobia. As long as the official leadership (of any such denomination, really, not just Catholicism) is bigoted, it's pretty much going to be impossible to get rid of bigotry.
It's also worth nothing that this statement doesn't apply to all denominations, either. Some are proudly progressive even at their highest levels.
I'll be honest... I don't understand the "message of tolerance" that's being conveyed. Could someone explain how The OP was a "message of tolerance" and not what DCartist thought (and myself to be honest).
Blatch, Highroller was being ironic. Read it back and you'll see.
@highroller, that was a clever post. kudos.
Can't we all just get along?
@LogicX: when you talk about your friend on Facebook, "the atheist [who] in this case was being extremely mature and basically just begging her friend to not let an issue like this come between their friendship, and stating over and over again how she respected her beliefs"...
...would this here be an example of that kind of "respect" for Christians and their beliefs?
Quote from LogicX »
Now, I read through the hilarious (to me) facebook exchanges in one case where a Christian was getting all preachy and judgmental of the atheist- you know, when they start speaking in King James version English on facebook... But the Christian kept coming back with the old sanctimonious tirades about Jesus and souls and such.
just checkin'
If that's your version of "extremely mature", what do you sound like when you're being "less than extremely mature"?
Blatch, Highroller was being ironic. Read it back and you'll see.
@highroller, that was a clever post. kudos.
Can't we all just get along?
@LogicX: when you talk about your friend on Facebook, "the atheist [who] in this case was being extremely mature and basically just begging her friend to not let an issue like this come between their friendship, and stating over and over again how she respected her beliefs"...
...would this here be an example of that kind of "respect" for Christians and their beliefs?
just checkin'
If that's your version of "extremely mature", what do you sound like when you're being "less than extremely mature"?
I'm so sorry dcartist that this thread is contrary to your beliefs about all Christians. It must be difficult accepting that the three cases I'm talking about actually happened and were cases of bigotry perpetuated by young Christians when it so directly clashes with what you want to believe.
Oh and you seem a little confused, I'm not the atheist that I posted about. Believe me, they were more mature than I could ever be if someone was attacking me for being an atheist. I feel that you are at a disadvantage in this conversation because you don't have access to the actual conversation and can't see how foolish your posts make you sound when considered in the context of what really happened.
Let's face it: the KKK, neo-nazis and the Westburo baptist church still exist too. Bigotry is not, nor will ever be totally gone.
I'm not going to go as far as dcartist, but I think that you're overblowing the instance of a few Christians being jerks. People get pissy over highly charged matters, like religon, but I'd argue that this is a waning trend.
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"Proving god exists isn't hard. Proving god is God is the tricky part" - Roommate
I'm so sorry dcartist that this thread is contrary to your beliefs about all Christians.
you have me confused with somebody else. I've made no claims at all about how "all Christians" behave.
Oh and you seem a little confused, I'm not the atheist that I posted about.
again, it's you who are confused: I am quite clear that I know it's your friend whom you pointed out was "respectful" and "extremely mature". Try actually reading the post.
Its just that the way you wrote about your friend, you seemed to imply that those qualities actually MATTERED.
So I pointed out that you weren't living up to that standard.
Believe me, they were more mature than I could ever be if someone was attacking me for being an atheist.
oh we believe you... We definitely believe you.
Just try to keep in mind that the phrasing of your OP is painting too large a group I people with the same brush, especially when taken in tandem with the gratuitous tone of the mocking of the Facebook guy.
Frankly, when it comes to Christians and gay people, the lack of acceptance of gays is overall more cultural and a symbol of orthodoxy (and clinging to the past) than it is with anything strictly Biblical or intrinsically Christian. In the 1970s not many Americans accepted gays. The more orthodox religious tend to be slower to change culturally, and they are more likely to still be living with the same ideas their parents had in the 1970s. Certainly my church, PCUSA is the largest denomination in the US, has openly gay pastors.
I wouldn't take your experience as indicative of a larger trend. Actually my personal experience is that the youth of today are generally more accepting.
In addition, I saw an article on cnn that I dug up showing a trend that reveal young americans are less religious than their parents.
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In the past couple months, between me and my girlfriend we have witnessed three separate cases of a long friendship being completely cut off because a Christian decided they couldn't be friends with someone different than them. In two cases it was because the other friend was an atheist, in one case it was because the other person was gay.
Now, I read through the hilarious (to me) facebook exchanges in one case where a Christian was getting all preachy and judgmental of the atheist- you know, when they start speaking in King James version English on facebook. The atheist in this case was being extremely mature and basically just begging her friend to not let an issue like this come between their friendship, and stating over and over again how she respected her beliefs. But the Christian kept coming back with the old sanctimonious tirades about Jesus and souls and such. As far as I know they are no longer friends.
Recently I have been noticing a lot of behavior like this. There was a little scandal over a gay issue at my school and I was shocked at how many people I thought were progressive young individuals were actually prejudiced against homosexuality. The real problem seemed to be the Evangelical youth groups that they were all a part of that drove their viewpoints.
Have I been overestimating the enlightenment of the new generation? Have you seen any examples of young Christians discriminating? Are my recent personal experiences just out of the ordinary flukes?
I don't know if that's entirely true. Less people than ever are religious, yeah, but youth are generally less religious than adults anyway, so the difference isn't quite as pronounced as it may seem.
But yes, I agree that within 30 years, religious people will be the minority (and in some places, they already are).
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Really, think about what you're doing.
And if you noticed an exchange between a couple of people, doesn't exactly mean that there is some kind of humongous social trend going on of anti-atheist persecution.
I really couldn't care less if you believe me, and I have no intention to be posting my facebook friends conversations on this website without their knowledge.
I know Christians who disowned their friends because they are atheists or came out of the closet. Take that how you will. My experiences aren't meant to be the end all talking point of this thread, but rather serve as the impetus for discussion about whether this is a larger issue.
But if we can get past the days of "no Irish need apply" to the point where saying something like that would be patently absurd, we can get to the point where atheism and homosexuality are simply seen as normal and that discrimination against such is likewise absurd.
I'd say that's a fairly accurate summary.
We get it. You dont like Christians. Whatever.
Basically, what Dcarist said.
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Cutting off all contact with someone because they are gay or an atheist is not a bad thing?
Any atheist who has debated a Christian knows how annoying it is when someone quotes bible versus at you as if they hold weight over you.
Facebook comments are normally idiotic. Now imagine a facebook argument from someone whose only study of philosophy and theology comes from sunday school. Yeah, it was pretty funny. The atheist wasn't even responding to their arguments though, she was just trying to say that she wished they could agree to disagree.
They were all members of an Evangelical youth group. The gay issue at my school was started by an Evangelical youth group.
In this case yes they were.
I'd say you are just in this topic to antagonize me and the hyperbole of your "summary" proves it.
I get it. You don't like me. Whatever.
Was their bigotry a result of them bring Christian, or were they simply inclined towards bigotry and are simply using their religion as an outlet for it? Because I assure you, there are plenty of progressive religious people who look in dismay upon bigoted members of their religion giving the religion a bad image. A blanket statement like "have you noticed what bigots Christians are?" (something you didn't dispute, but defended) only serves to try and erase those people.
It's like when someone says "have you ever noticed what fat, smelly, antisocial neckbeards Magic players are?" I mean, sure, there are some Magic players who fit that description, but the majority does not. It doesn't matter if someone does or doesn't fit that description in a single case, because they're two wholly independent things that shouldn't really be put together like that. Same thing with the Christian bigots you're complaining about.
And if you can't understand that, then you have no business replying to a thread created for the purpose of bashing Christians.
You obviously don't understand the message of tolerance that's being conveyed.
I was explaining my position, I didn't feel like going through the nitty gritty of his ridiculous post and rewriting each sentence he got wrong. Don't presume that the words he put in my mouth are accurate. I wouldn't throw blanket statements around about all Christians being bigots, but I clarified that in this these specific individuals were.
How should I judge how to answer your question? One explicitly stated they couldn't be friends with someone who had rejected Jesus. In the other case I heard that they claimed they thought homosexuality was immoral because they were Christian and couldn't be that persons friend. Does that answer your question?
I wasn't saying the majority of Christians are bigots, I was questioning my previous belief that bigotry would be all but eradicated with the new generation of Christians due to an unexpected flurry of bigotry that I witnessed in my own life, and inquiring about other people's experiences.
I'll be honest... I don't understand the "message of tolerance" that's being conveyed. Could someone explain how The OP was a "message of tolerance" and not what DCartist thought (and myself to be honest).
About Christians: things among the younger Christians ARE changing. More and more are taking a deeper look at the issues, comparing them to Jesus' teachings, and concluding that their forebears didn't exactly get things right.
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It's one of those open-ended messages without a direct activity for further prevention, it is instead a complaint that drives a conversation towards tolerance; that is, that's what I got from the OP.
Honestly, though, I think it becomes a more important question for the religious than the areligious (or Christians rather than the non-Christians, if you prefer), I'll admit it gets really annoying seeing other people using the name of God to drive their bigotry, when my highest spiritual priority is to do the exact opposite sort of thing.
"Open-ended" is what I intended the thread to be. If I came off as insulting it was intended only against the bigots whose behavior I found so disgusting.
In Berkeley...
Just because it has become socially taboo to be prejudice doesn't stop people.
Using wording that signals tacit agreement with the quoted statement.
It's worth noting that the official position of the largest Christian denomination denies even gender equality, to say nothing of its homophobia. As long as the official leadership (of any such denomination, really, not just Catholicism) is bigoted, it's pretty much going to be impossible to get rid of bigotry.
It's also worth nothing that this statement doesn't apply to all denominations, either. Some are proudly progressive even at their highest levels.
I'm glad then that you have pointed this out and my position has since been clarified.
@highroller, that was a clever post. kudos.
Can't we all just get along?
@LogicX: when you talk about your friend on Facebook, "the atheist [who] in this case was being extremely mature and basically just begging her friend to not let an issue like this come between their friendship, and stating over and over again how she respected her beliefs"...
...would this here be an example of that kind of "respect" for Christians and their beliefs?
just checkin'
If that's your version of "extremely mature", what do you sound like when you're being "less than extremely mature"?
I'm so sorry dcartist that this thread is contrary to your beliefs about all Christians. It must be difficult accepting that the three cases I'm talking about actually happened and were cases of bigotry perpetuated by young Christians when it so directly clashes with what you want to believe.
Oh and you seem a little confused, I'm not the atheist that I posted about. Believe me, they were more mature than I could ever be if someone was attacking me for being an atheist. I feel that you are at a disadvantage in this conversation because you don't have access to the actual conversation and can't see how foolish your posts make you sound when considered in the context of what really happened.
I'm not going to go as far as dcartist, but I think that you're overblowing the instance of a few Christians being jerks. People get pissy over highly charged matters, like religon, but I'd argue that this is a waning trend.
again, it's you who are confused: I am quite clear that I know it's your friend whom you pointed out was "respectful" and "extremely mature". Try actually reading the post.
Its just that the way you wrote about your friend, you seemed to imply that those qualities actually MATTERED.
So I pointed out that you weren't living up to that standard.
oh we believe you... We definitely believe you.
Just try to keep in mind that the phrasing of your OP is painting too large a group I people with the same brush, especially when taken in tandem with the gratuitous tone of the mocking of the Facebook guy.
Frankly, when it comes to Christians and gay people, the lack of acceptance of gays is overall more cultural and a symbol of orthodoxy (and clinging to the past) than it is with anything strictly Biblical or intrinsically Christian. In the 1970s not many Americans accepted gays. The more orthodox religious tend to be slower to change culturally, and they are more likely to still be living with the same ideas their parents had in the 1970s. Certainly my church, PCUSA is the largest denomination in the US, has openly gay pastors.
In addition, I saw an article on cnn that I dug up showing a trend that reveal young americans are less religious than their parents.