Just wondering. After I build and get in some practice on magic in general with a rdw I thought it looked fun to transition over to a R/B deck, but I see little discussion on the topic.
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I think the mana sucks too much to work as you have to use gates which are freakishly bad in aggro. I do think it'll probably get a break with the rb scry land though as scry 1 kinda makes up for the eob tapped problem.
Deck seems like it would be strong with tymat the murder king, dreadbore, etc.
Yes, but it might not look like your normal aggro deck. You'll have to make concessions at the 1 and 2 drop slots because your mana may be a bit awkward, but the Murder King is certainly a decent draw towards it.
The gates actually aren't as bad on your tempo as you'd assume. If you actually play with them in an Aggro deck a bit you'll find that there are a lot of opportunities in the average game to drop them without messing yourself up.
Yeah, the mana is worse than just straight Red, but I don't think it's so much worse that you're sacrificing more in consistency than what you're gaining in power.
Also, keep in mind, cards like Spike Jester and Exava are pretty boss when the most popular deck is running lots of Doom Blade/Ultimate Price effects.
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
So the consensus is more or less, it CAN work, but is not always ideal. We shall see if I try it or not, I just thought it would be fun to play my two favorite colors for a change since back in the day I stuck to mostly mono and my first deck back is mono.
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“Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.”
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
What experience? You can win the occasional game day with an inconsistent aggro deck, but you would win many more if you played a straight RDW or WW.
I tried to build a similar deck in Magic Online, and it was just bad. It looked great when I drew right, but it just wasn't a good deck. "Experience" doesn't really make a sucky mana base any less bad. "Experience" helps you realize that you can't expect to reliably cast RB casting cost cards with 4 shocklands and 4 gates and it's just going to be a worse option than its mono colored counterparts.
So what you're telling me is you actually have very little-to-no experience whatsoever playing an Aggro deck with Gates and everything you've said is based on your completely uninformed opinion?
Well that's good to know.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
There is no reason to get into an argument over this. You each have your own opinion, and that is fine. I got the initial feedback I wanted and thank those who commented.
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“Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.”
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
Oh wow! An over-and-out midrange deck being confused to an aggro deck by a ******.
Your post pretty much reveals that you have little to no experience playing a deck like Sullivan's R/w Aggro list. Even if you've never played with it or against it, there is plenty of video footage of the deck in action from the actual event.
Please tell us more about your Magic expertise. I'm dying to hear it.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
An aggro deck without playing a set of 5 CMC cards and 25 lands?
It blew your mind, didn't it? It's actually a really solid deck, capable of running over the durdly decks like MBD and things like Esper. Of course, it's Mono U Devotion match-up isn't great, but then again, it's not good for the other Red decks either. But the Stormbreaths go a long way. And Mutavault is, indeed, a card.
Also, with 25 land in the deck, the Scry mechanic, Chandra, hitting your land drops isn't hard. Most New Standard games aren't won on turn 4 (usually) anyways. It's a different format than when we had Hellrider.
It can definitely work, the manabase will just be inconsistent. GW aggro is a deck that runs up to 3 gates and places (or has placed) well. I think Br or Rb or even RB aggro is well positioned in the meta right now, as the creatures dodge a lot of mono black removal (doom blade and ultimate price). The color combination is also surprisingly resilient against control as it has access to the most haste creatures, so it can bounce right back after a wrath effect, and also has thoughtseize, which is best used as a proactive card anyway (especially against aforementioned supreme verdict). It's got reach and removal in burn, and can side in to black removal against creature heavy decks and boros reckoner so yes, I think BR is very viable.
This actually seems pretty awesome, as having so many haste creatures really gives you game against slower control/midrange/decks. The creatures also have a surprising amount of built in utility, as mogis marauder is excellent at pushing through a stalled board state/elspeth tokens, and hellhole flailer can fling himself to end a game.
gorehouse chainwalker or firefist first striker might just be better than rakdos shred freak though. I like that shred freak has haste, gains intimidate from mogis marauder, and can be cast no matter what lands you have (which reduces original problem of consistency), but it still just might be worse than the other two option. I do like firstriker in a deck with a decent amount of haste...
You're arguing for the sake of arguing without having anything relevant to bring on the table. You want to "prove" your point inside your closed minds so badly that you are willing to abandon all the logic. The deck you are linking is a midrange deck much more than aggro, and it's a monored build that splashes white for Boros Charm that helps against sweepers and serves as burn spell. This deck is trying to play plenty of 4 CMC cards, 5 CMC cards, not trying to cast two mana cards requiring different mana symbols(Boros Charm is almost never casted on turn 2) Heck, it's not even trying to cast Burning-Tree Emissary, one of the most remarkable red aggro cards, yet you're comparing this deck to an over-and-out aggro.
Secondly, the list you linked does not play a single gate. It does play the scry lands, yes, but those are just miles ahead in quality.
That's totally different than making a two-color aggro deck. If you weren't just stubbornly arguing for the sake of not admitting that you're wrong, you would see the difference. Essentially, you're linking us a monored midrange deck that splahes one card from white, to prove that two-colored aggro is possible. You can keep telling yourself that's how it works. Whatever floats your boat. But don't expect much success with those conclusions. They're just dead-wrong.
Edit: Anyone who follows the metagame knows that GW Aggro has seen massive decline since the first 1-2 weeks of the format. But sure, use it to prove your point...
1. No one is saying Scry Lands aren't better than Gates. That's not the argument. The argument is that an Aggro deck can utilize ETB tapped lands and the deck linked proves that yes, they can.
2. Please show me the RB decklist I was talking about. I'll be impressed since I never posted one. If you can't, I'd like to know how you can argue with certainty that the mana base for it will not work.
I can't think of a single way you could, honestly... unless, of course, you're just making more uninformed assumptions.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
You're arguing for the sake of arguing without having anything relevant to bring on the table. You want to "prove" your point inside your closed minds so badly that you are willing to abandon all the logic. The deck you are linking is a midrange deck much more than aggro, and it's a monored build that splashes white for Boros Charm that helps against sweepers and serves as burn spell. This deck is trying to play plenty of 4 CMC cards, 5 CMC cards, not trying to cast two mana cards requiring different mana symbols(Boros Charm is almost never casted on turn 2) Heck, it's not even trying to cast Burning-Tree Emissary, one of the most remarkable red aggro cards, yet you're comparing this deck to an over-and-out aggro.
Secondly, the list you linked does not play a single gate. It does play the scry lands, yes, but those are just miles ahead in quality.
That's totally different than making a two-color aggro deck. If you weren't just stubbornly arguing for the sake of not admitting that you're wrong, you would see the difference. Essentially, you're linking us a monored midrange deck that splahes one card from white, to prove that two-colored aggro is possible. You can keep telling yourself that's how it works. Whatever floats your boat. But don't expect much success with those conclusions. They're just dead-wrong.
Edit: Anyone who follows the metagame knows that GW Aggro has seen massive decline since the first 1-2 weeks of the format. But sure, use it to prove your point...
The deck top 4'd an SCG event by Adrian Sullivan. It is, essentially, a Mono Red build splashing white (with Scrylands, yes, but the same drawback as a guildgate) for Boros Charm.
Do you even know why it plays Boros Charm? Probably not. I'll enlighten you.
What does a Red deck try to do in order to win? Build a board presence. Boros Charm is the fat middle finger answering a Supreme Verdict. Or even the Doom Blade that targets the game-winning Dragon.
The deck itself plays 8 1-drops and 8 haste critters. All relatively easy to cast and capable of applying massive pressure if left unanswered.
Really, you just fail to grasp what it is that makes the deck work. Instead of using your brain, you're lashing out defensively and trying to win a pissing contest that you have no hope of winning.
If you think that what makes an aggro deck an "aggro" deck is spitting its whole hand on the table and hope to "get there," then you are sadly mistaken.
I never said that's a bad deck. I only said it's much more of a midrange than aggro deck. And again, as I said, the deck does not play guildgates, and it splashes a single card from white, being completely monored otherwise. And here you are linking it in an attempt to prove that two-color aggro casting 1+1 costed cards is a viable option.
It also plays Chained to the Rocks in the board. But I'm sure that in your haste to make a "well-informed" post, you neglected to see that.
You guys are already toeing the line between legit debate and sarcasm-ladin insults. I've already carded a few posts. I don't want to have to close the thread or card anyone else.
If I got an infraction, can you at least give him one for trolling as well? He's degrading the quality of this fine forum and misleading the hapless readers by constantly posting irrelevant stuff.
I am serious actually. The stuff he's writing is going to make the people who take them seriously worse players. He's just arguing for the sake of being right inside his own head, and not really having any logic. Posting a pile of [insert-a-word-of-your-choice] to evade all the logical points is very detrimental to the quality of the debate.
If poor arguments were grounds for infractions, most of the membership of this site would be in the appeal forum.
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― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
roughly looks like
4 cacklers
4 zealots
4 jesters
4 phoenixes
4 desecration
4 thoughtseize
2 rakdos's return
1 stormbreath dragon
1 chandra
4 dreadbore
4 doom blade
+some burn
Deck seems like it would be strong with tymat the murder king, dreadbore, etc.
Sales Thread!
BW Midrange
Yeah, the mana is worse than just straight Red, but I don't think it's so much worse that you're sacrificing more in consistency than what you're gaining in power.
Also, keep in mind, cards like Spike Jester and Exava are pretty boss when the most popular deck is running lots of Doom Blade/Ultimate Price effects.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
Also thanks for telling me all about how Aggro works. That was very enlightening.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Trolling infraction.
-DarkRitual
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
So what you're telling me is you actually have very little-to-no experience whatsoever playing an Aggro deck with Gates and everything you've said is based on your completely uninformed opinion?
Well that's good to know.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Midrange deck with 8 1-drops? Try again slick.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
Your post pretty much reveals that you have little to no experience playing a deck like Sullivan's R/w Aggro list. Even if you've never played with it or against it, there is plenty of video footage of the deck in action from the actual event.
Please tell us more about your Magic expertise. I'm dying to hear it.
Because none of the Aggro decks last season played Thundermaw, amirite?
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
It blew your mind, didn't it? It's actually a really solid deck, capable of running over the durdly decks like MBD and things like Esper. Of course, it's Mono U Devotion match-up isn't great, but then again, it's not good for the other Red decks either. But the Stormbreaths go a long way. And Mutavault is, indeed, a card.
Also, with 25 land in the deck, the Scry mechanic, Chandra, hitting your land drops isn't hard. Most New Standard games aren't won on turn 4 (usually) anyways. It's a different format than when we had Hellrider.
Maybe something like this
4 blood crypt
2 rakdos guildgate
9 swamp
7 mountain
4 rakdos cackler
4 tormented hero
4 spike jester
4 rakdos shred-freak
4 mogis marauder
4 hellhole flailer
3 exava, rakdos blood witch
4 thoughtseize
4 magma jet
3 lightning strike
This actually seems pretty awesome, as having so many haste creatures really gives you game against slower control/midrange/decks. The creatures also have a surprising amount of built in utility, as mogis marauder is excellent at pushing through a stalled board state/elspeth tokens, and hellhole flailer can fling himself to end a game.
gorehouse chainwalker or firefist first striker might just be better than rakdos shred freak though. I like that shred freak has haste, gains intimidate from mogis marauder, and can be cast no matter what lands you have (which reduces original problem of consistency), but it still just might be worse than the other two option. I do like firstriker in a deck with a decent amount of haste...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
This is a great point.
If G/W can do it, then it is certainly possible right now. I, for one, welcome our potential new Rakdos overlords.
Trolling infraction.
-DarkRitual
1. No one is saying Scry Lands aren't better than Gates. That's not the argument. The argument is that an Aggro deck can utilize ETB tapped lands and the deck linked proves that yes, they can.
2. Please show me the RB decklist I was talking about. I'll be impressed since I never posted one. If you can't, I'd like to know how you can argue with certainty that the mana base for it will not work.
I can't think of a single way you could, honestly... unless, of course, you're just making more uninformed assumptions.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
The deck top 4'd an SCG event by Adrian Sullivan. It is, essentially, a Mono Red build splashing white (with Scrylands, yes, but the same drawback as a guildgate) for Boros Charm.
Do you even know why it plays Boros Charm? Probably not. I'll enlighten you.
What does a Red deck try to do in order to win? Build a board presence. Boros Charm is the fat middle finger answering a Supreme Verdict. Or even the Doom Blade that targets the game-winning Dragon.
The deck itself plays 8 1-drops and 8 haste critters. All relatively easy to cast and capable of applying massive pressure if left unanswered.
Really, you just fail to grasp what it is that makes the deck work. Instead of using your brain, you're lashing out defensively and trying to win a pissing contest that you have no hope of winning.
If you think that what makes an aggro deck an "aggro" deck is spitting its whole hand on the table and hope to "get there," then you are sadly mistaken.
It also plays Chained to the Rocks in the board. But I'm sure that in your haste to make a "well-informed" post, you neglected to see that.
I mean, I thought the answer was two...but I guess I'm mistaken.
I'm glad you can finally see the light.
If poor arguments were grounds for infractions, most of the membership of this site would be in the appeal forum.