Obligatory theory crafting thread - UWR and Dragon's Maze
So I have been fiddling with Ral Zarek trying to figure out how to effectively apply him. I was not really finding him to be very applicable in the current UWR Flash decks, or the traditional UWR Geist Midrange decks, for various reasons;
- Flash emphasizes on playing on their opponents turn, maximizing flexibility and trying to follow up with the best possible plays the deck can manage to any given game state. Ral Zarek is much more proactive than that. His most appealing option is perhaps his +1 for opening up responsive mana.
- Geist Midrange does not get much out of him other than temporary removal or 1-2 Bolts at 4 mana. The responsive mana is less relevant as Geist Midrange plays a more tap out power play approach to it's matches. At best, Ral Zarek provides a boost of protection for Geist by tapping down any left over creatures, but cards like Unsummon and Restoration Angel are just as, if not more, effective.
Taking that information, I sought out a rebuild. I wanted to attempt to maximize protection for Ral Zarek, and myself. Playing a slower, more controlling game and following it up with a flurry of attacks either off of multiple turns or Aurelia, the War Leader.
The list came out super wonky, it looks more akin to UWR Control from the early days of Alara-Zendikar. For those who played at that time, which really was not too terribly long ago, may remember this deck. No, not UWR Superfriends, but good old UWR Control with Beleren, Ajani Vengeant, Wall of Denial etc.
I merged many if the later adaptations which led to UWR Superfriends, but I cut out the fluff of extra Planeswalkers and ported it over to Dragon's Maze Standard as of 4/13 spoilers.
I have not worked on a SB yet, still working out some kinks.
The deck utilizes cheap removal and stalling cantrips to pull into mid to late game, to start converting early resources into a powerful endgame.
Creatures
Alchemist's Apprentice is an odd choice, but the idea was to have an early body that fetches a card which helps stave off early damage and dig for sweepers or finishers. I tried numerous cards in this slot, attempting to replicate (loosely) the functionality of Wall of Omens. Walls were great as they provided continuos damage mitigation and replaced themselves upon ETB. Decks at the time only ran about 4 sweepers, two of which were generally Martial Coup to wipe a board and replace Walls with Soldiers to start swinging in. With out something like Coup, replacements are harder to create, so I just upped hard sweepers and made my walls more disposable in the form of the Apprentice, which helps reduce the feel bad generated from losing your blockers. I tried using Augur of Bolas, but with only 19 other cards for him to grab, he only begins to push off lands you may need in exchange for an early blocker, or he does not really give you any selection in your 3. I also tried various walls, the cantrip was very important to have against Aggro however. Blocking and activating Apprentice was the best it was getting, and even in the late game he is just a cantrip, no more than Azorious Charm often is.
Boros Reckoner is there to attempt to halt combat. Threatening aggressive strategies with a 2 for 1 or protecting Ral Zarek or Gideon from Midrange beaters, Boros Reckoner is an early game resource which becomes deadly after stabilizing.
Gideon, Champion of Justice is the hard to remove finisher. He is no Sphinx of Jwar Isle, but with the support of removal he is able to get in for hard hits, survive your sweeps and do double duty when Aurelia finds her way onto the board. He also provides damage mitigation in the mid stages of the game.
Aurelia, the Warleader is our "balls to the wall" beater. She turns early and mid game resources like Boros Reckoner and Gideon into board beats that demand blocks which can either end the game or do considerable damage leaving an opponent with a leveled field. If Ral Zarek does not get you extra turns, she effectively simulates the combat aspect.
The creature package is designed to curve you into, and well beyond stabilization. Gideon having limited Hexproof to most removal and Aurelia generally triggering whether she connects or not allow you to push through high volumes of damage regardless of removal.
The spells in the deck are designed to stave off early Aggro turns 1-3 and hold you in place until you can sweep or clog the board up with beaters and walkers. Sphinx's Revelation allowing you to refill your hand, replenish your life, and allow you to jam the board with new found walkers or bodies.
It is a pretty un-orthodox list by today's standard card pool, but its removal is cheap, helping you survive the early game, push Ral's +1 to help swing Midgame tempo while still being applicable in the later stages as soft removal. The deck is capable of digging through lots of cards for answers and finishers while maximizing mana use. Still no SB plans, but there are plenty of options I have been eyeing.
-Alchemist's Apprentice & Inaction Injunction, what's up with these? Both are just plain garbage cards and not worth the deck space.
Apprentice is a damage mitigating cantrip for 2 mana, he replaces himself regardless of removal or what he is blocking. If you played UWR during Alara-Zen, 2 mana cantrips were ridiculous for control even more so when they had a relevant pseudo role, unlike something like Thoughtscour which has limited secondary application. Inaction Injunction is a highly underrated card in standard, even more so when you put emphasis on drawing out more creatures for a sweep. Even Spreading Seas which was adjusted to at the time by numerous decks was a key player purely because it still had an early cantrip effect. The idea is to see as many cards as you can while prohibiting an opposition, taking less focus on simply trading 1 for 1 as we are so accustom to in this standard.
-You don't have draw engine. 2 Revelations is not going to cut it.
-You don't have enough land for being a revelation deck.
There are 8 2 mana cantrips and 2 revelations for 10 draw sources...
Back to referencing the old list, Mindspring was ran at 26 land. There is a 1 land difference and the deck runs Ral Zarek, I am sure if you crunch the numbers it is a marginal percentage...
-You have zero hard counters, imo that is just asking to get wrecked by a strong non-creature threat such as rakdos's return or planeswalker.
I was not aware hard counter was a must include for a control deck... Sorry. I guess I assumed the deck fell into the category based on the role it takes in a duel...
-Your end game is not that strong, if you aim to go long, Niv-Mizzet is the strongest finisher for these colors. The card is criminally underplayed.
In these colors, Niv is hardly the strongest finisher. Aurelia focuses on resource conversion, taking those depleted resources and giving them an endgame purpose. She is arguably one of the best creatures in standard right now, which is why WR anything is beginning to pack her. Niv is good and all, but he swings for 5... He draws you a bunch of cards then does what? Swings for another 5. I understand that card advantage is an important concept in magic, but if you have a revelations deck and your focus is to draw cards with it... That is all it really does... Draws cards. You need some way to effectively apply your resources to complete the match, no matter how many cards you draw.
-Also I don't think this current version is taking advantage of Ral Zarek, using the plus ability only for ramp is not good enough.
Turn 4 Ral with Unsummon, Rapid and sometimes even Pillar is ridiculous. Turn 5 Ral with Izzet charm, azorius charm or above mentioned removal spells is equally as nuts. If jace had a +1 Unsummon it would have been even more ridiculous. It is virtually similar to that concept. It maximizes protection for him to build. His +1 also feeds into later revelations.
Augurs with only 20 cards to look for seems bad. That is 1/3 of your deck, not factoring what you are drawing for your 7 and the turns leading into. If you are looking for Geist Midrange, augur just does not compute well enough for me.
In your deck Niv-Mizzet should actually finish them much more quickly than Aurelia. Aurelia will swing for 6 each turn, with a smaller body and no way to force through damage if there are blockers. If Boros Reckoner is out, she may be stronger, but there is not always going to be a Reckoner... in fact, there often will not be. Niv will be able to draw you cards, deal similar amounts of damage, and clear out blockers in a pinch. Most of hte time Aurelia is better, but not here.
Your choice of cards like Alchemist's Apprentice, Unsummon, Rapid Hybridization, and Inaction Injunction is startling. Most of these spells provide significant card disadvantage, which is hardly where you want to go with control. This gets even worse when you realize that you are neglecting the powerful and similarly functioning cards like Azorius Charm and Think Twice.
You are also extremely weak to non-creature threats, such as Staff of Nin, Rakdos's Return or planeswalkers (Garruk and Liliana in particular would destroy you).
This list is what I'm preparing to run at SCG Somerset the weekend that Dragon's Maze comes out. I think expecting a lot of aggro is fair, and this list certainly seems like it'd dominate aggro. Flash already was insane against aggressive decks, and maindeck Staticasters combined with their interactions with new cards seems like it'd just put that matchup over the top.
I like the Staticaster interaction with both Turn/Burn and Ral Zarek. It enables 2 for 1's with Turn / Burn for 5 mana, dealing with a fatty and a smaller guy perhaps. With Ral, it allows you to take out any creatures up to 4 toughness. These ideas all seem really good to me in theory. I've yet to do any playtesting, but we'll see how things go.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Winner of the SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Jul 26-28, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
What do you do when Aggro decks pack 4 Voice of Ressurgence in the MB? That card has killed any further flash based testing for me. There are Pillars etc, but at that point I would effectively take a more proactive tempo approach to keep pace.
I also really like pushing his +1 with instant speed 1 mana removal. It lets me drop a distraction and not only +1 into protection but also remove a swinging critter whatever it may be.
You Wrath, and/or use Staticaster, or kill it on your turn with Ral or anything else. I also don't think Voice is as good as it's being hyped up to be. It's similar to Grand Abolisher, just with the upside of providing some value against a Wrath. I don't think it's a significant concern at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Winner of the SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Jul 26-28, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
Abolisher is different in a big way in that it just entirely negates removal. It was also in a standard where Aggro was a lot less prevelant. There will be times you need to just remove another creature entirely as soon as it ETB and then you are in a pickle without a wrath. The card is far more legit than Abolisher because it gives its opponents options with the ability to just punish them for making those options that sometimes have to be made. Abolisher cut out the middleman and sometimes it pays to have that middleman if you catch my drift.
That is like saying Vexing Devil is better than a 4/3 for R.
What? No. It isn't. They have a completely different option of dealing with one or the other. Having an option of timing over and option of acceptance is not linear or comparable. Even more so when they option I over timing also replaces the body pressing the time restraint
They're not identical, but relying on your opponent to make the wrong choice is a very bad strategy.
If they're casting spells on your turn with Voice out, they're going to be pretty damn sure it needs to be on your turn.
... you are not relying on anything. Even if they for whatever have to remove something on your turn, you get a token out of it. There is no lose, and it gives you options to force plays in a very dynamic way, where Abolisher did not give you that dynamic.
Kamahl is right about voice's flexibility. I've played a few games with it in aggro and in bant. It's not uncommon to wind up with a 3/3 elemental from it. You'll never get 5 power out of a Grand Abolisher. You don't have to hate Voice just cuz its a hate bear, but I guarantee you're going to have to face it.
This list is what I'm preparing to run at SCG Somerset the weekend that Dragon's Maze comes out. I think expecting a lot of aggro is fair, and this list certainly seems like it'd dominate aggro. Flash already was insane against aggressive decks, and maindeck Staticasters combined with their interactions with new cards seems like it'd just put that matchup over the top.
I like the Staticaster interaction with both Turn/Burn and Ral Zarek. It enables 2 for 1's with Turn / Burn for 5 mana, dealing with a fatty and a smaller guy perhaps. With Ral, it allows you to take out any creatures up to 4 toughness. These ideas all seem really good to me in theory. I've yet to do any playtesting, but we'll see how things go.
This deck looks like a ton of fun. How about posting some test results!
I'm not saying it is a worse card than Grand Abolisher. I'm saying that the ability to create the token when your opponent plays a spell on your turn is weaker than Grand Abolisher's ability to completely eliminate your opponent's spellcasting on your turn.
Of course, the Voice's on-death ability makes it stronger than Grand Abolisher.
This deck looks like a ton of fun. How about posting some test results!
I will once I actually play some matches with it. I went to the WMCQ and a PTQ this weekend so I haven't started testing for post-DGM Standard yet. Hopefully will find time for that this week.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Winner of the SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Jul 26-28, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
So I have been fiddling with Ral Zarek trying to figure out how to effectively apply him. I was not really finding him to be very applicable in the current UWR Flash decks, or the traditional UWR Geist Midrange decks, for various reasons;
- Flash emphasizes on playing on their opponents turn, maximizing flexibility and trying to follow up with the best possible plays the deck can manage to any given game state. Ral Zarek is much more proactive than that. His most appealing option is perhaps his +1 for opening up responsive mana.
- Geist Midrange does not get much out of him other than temporary removal or 1-2 Bolts at 4 mana. The responsive mana is less relevant as Geist Midrange plays a more tap out power play approach to it's matches. At best, Ral Zarek provides a boost of protection for Geist by tapping down any left over creatures, but cards like Unsummon and Restoration Angel are just as, if not more, effective.
Taking that information, I sought out a rebuild. I wanted to attempt to maximize protection for Ral Zarek, and myself. Playing a slower, more controlling game and following it up with a flurry of attacks either off of multiple turns or Aurelia, the War Leader.
The list came out super wonky, it looks more akin to UWR Control from the early days of Alara-Zendikar. For those who played at that time, which really was not too terribly long ago, may remember this deck. No, not UWR Superfriends, but good old UWR Control with Beleren, Ajani Vengeant, Wall of Denial etc.
I merged many if the later adaptations which led to UWR Superfriends, but I cut out the fluff of extra Planeswalkers and ported it over to Dragon's Maze Standard as of 4/13 spoilers.
4 Alchemist's Apprentice
4 Boros Reckoner
Planeswalkers (6)
3 Ral Zarek
3 Gideon, Champion of Justice
Legendary Creatures (2)
2 Aurelia, the War Leader
Sorceries (9)
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Inaction Injunction
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Rapid Hybridization
3 Unsummon
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Izzet Charm
2 Essence Scatter
Lands (25)
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
I have not worked on a SB yet, still working out some kinks.
The deck utilizes cheap removal and stalling cantrips to pull into mid to late game, to start converting early resources into a powerful endgame.
Creatures
Alchemist's Apprentice is an odd choice, but the idea was to have an early body that fetches a card which helps stave off early damage and dig for sweepers or finishers. I tried numerous cards in this slot, attempting to replicate (loosely) the functionality of Wall of Omens. Walls were great as they provided continuos damage mitigation and replaced themselves upon ETB. Decks at the time only ran about 4 sweepers, two of which were generally Martial Coup to wipe a board and replace Walls with Soldiers to start swinging in. With out something like Coup, replacements are harder to create, so I just upped hard sweepers and made my walls more disposable in the form of the Apprentice, which helps reduce the feel bad generated from losing your blockers. I tried using Augur of Bolas, but with only 19 other cards for him to grab, he only begins to push off lands you may need in exchange for an early blocker, or he does not really give you any selection in your 3. I also tried various walls, the cantrip was very important to have against Aggro however. Blocking and activating Apprentice was the best it was getting, and even in the late game he is just a cantrip, no more than Azorious Charm often is.
Boros Reckoner is there to attempt to halt combat. Threatening aggressive strategies with a 2 for 1 or protecting Ral Zarek or Gideon from Midrange beaters, Boros Reckoner is an early game resource which becomes deadly after stabilizing.
Gideon, Champion of Justice is the hard to remove finisher. He is no Sphinx of Jwar Isle, but with the support of removal he is able to get in for hard hits, survive your sweeps and do double duty when Aurelia finds her way onto the board. He also provides damage mitigation in the mid stages of the game.
Aurelia, the Warleader is our "balls to the wall" beater. She turns early and mid game resources like Boros Reckoner and Gideon into board beats that demand blocks which can either end the game or do considerable damage leaving an opponent with a leveled field. If Ral Zarek does not get you extra turns, she effectively simulates the combat aspect.
The creature package is designed to curve you into, and well beyond stabilization. Gideon having limited Hexproof to most removal and Aurelia generally triggering whether she connects or not allow you to push through high volumes of damage regardless of removal.
The spells in the deck are designed to stave off early Aggro turns 1-3 and hold you in place until you can sweep or clog the board up with beaters and walkers. Sphinx's Revelation allowing you to refill your hand, replenish your life, and allow you to jam the board with new found walkers or bodies.
It is a pretty un-orthodox list by today's standard card pool, but its removal is cheap, helping you survive the early game, push Ral's +1 to help swing Midgame tempo while still being applicable in the later stages as soft removal. The deck is capable of digging through lots of cards for answers and finishers while maximizing mana use. Still no SB plans, but there are plenty of options I have been eyeing.
Apprentice is a damage mitigating cantrip for 2 mana, he replaces himself regardless of removal or what he is blocking. If you played UWR during Alara-Zen, 2 mana cantrips were ridiculous for control even more so when they had a relevant pseudo role, unlike something like Thoughtscour which has limited secondary application. Inaction Injunction is a highly underrated card in standard, even more so when you put emphasis on drawing out more creatures for a sweep. Even Spreading Seas which was adjusted to at the time by numerous decks was a key player purely because it still had an early cantrip effect. The idea is to see as many cards as you can while prohibiting an opposition, taking less focus on simply trading 1 for 1 as we are so accustom to in this standard.
There are 8 2 mana cantrips and 2 revelations for 10 draw sources...
Back to referencing the old list, Mindspring was ran at 26 land. There is a 1 land difference and the deck runs Ral Zarek, I am sure if you crunch the numbers it is a marginal percentage...
I was not aware hard counter was a must include for a control deck... Sorry. I guess I assumed the deck fell into the category based on the role it takes in a duel...
In these colors, Niv is hardly the strongest finisher. Aurelia focuses on resource conversion, taking those depleted resources and giving them an endgame purpose. She is arguably one of the best creatures in standard right now, which is why WR anything is beginning to pack her. Niv is good and all, but he swings for 5... He draws you a bunch of cards then does what? Swings for another 5. I understand that card advantage is an important concept in magic, but if you have a revelations deck and your focus is to draw cards with it... That is all it really does... Draws cards. You need some way to effectively apply your resources to complete the match, no matter how many cards you draw.
Turn 4 Ral with Unsummon, Rapid and sometimes even Pillar is ridiculous. Turn 5 Ral with Izzet charm, azorius charm or above mentioned removal spells is equally as nuts. If jace had a +1 Unsummon it would have been even more ridiculous. It is virtually similar to that concept. It maximizes protection for him to build. His +1 also feeds into later revelations.
3 Augur of Bolas
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Restoration Angel
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
Instants(15)::
4 Azorius Charm
3 Searing Spear
2 Boros Charm
2 Turn//Burn
2 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Counterflux
1 Dissipate
Sorceries/Enchantments(5)::
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Detention Sphere
2 Ral Zarek
Lands(24)::
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Clifftop Retreat
1 Ghost Quarters
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Izzet Staticasters
2 Boros Reckoners
2 Jace, Memory Adapt
2 Council of the Absolute
2 Wear//Tear
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1998-1999 X 2001-2003 X 2008 X 2012-Present
Commander/EDH
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind UR
Tajic, Blade of the Legion RW
Your choice of cards like Alchemist's Apprentice, Unsummon, Rapid Hybridization, and Inaction Injunction is startling. Most of these spells provide significant card disadvantage, which is hardly where you want to go with control. This gets even worse when you realize that you are neglecting the powerful and similarly functioning cards like Azorius Charm and Think Twice.
You are also extremely weak to non-creature threats, such as Staff of Nin, Rakdos's Return or planeswalkers (Garruk and Liliana in particular would destroy you).
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Restoration Angel
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Izzet Staticaster
Spells (24)
4 Azorius Charm
2 Dissipate
1 Harvest Pyre
2 Searing Spear
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Thought Scour
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Turn // Burn
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Ral Zarek
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Council of the Absolute
2 Clone
3 Rest in Peace
2 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Dissipate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
This list is what I'm preparing to run at SCG Somerset the weekend that Dragon's Maze comes out. I think expecting a lot of aggro is fair, and this list certainly seems like it'd dominate aggro. Flash already was insane against aggressive decks, and maindeck Staticasters combined with their interactions with new cards seems like it'd just put that matchup over the top.
I like the Staticaster interaction with both Turn/Burn and Ral Zarek. It enables 2 for 1's with Turn / Burn for 5 mana, dealing with a fatty and a smaller guy perhaps. With Ral, it allows you to take out any creatures up to 4 toughness. These ideas all seem really good to me in theory. I've yet to do any playtesting, but we'll see how things go.
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
twitter
I also really like pushing his +1 with instant speed 1 mana removal. It lets me drop a distraction and not only +1 into protection but also remove a swinging critter whatever it may be.
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
twitter
What? No. It isn't. They have a completely different option of dealing with one or the other. Having an option of timing over and option of acceptance is not linear or comparable. Even more so when they option I over timing also replaces the body pressing the time restraint
If they're casting spells on your turn with Voice out, they're going to be pretty damn sure it needs to be on your turn.
... you are not relying on anything. Even if they for whatever have to remove something on your turn, you get a token out of it. There is no lose, and it gives you options to force plays in a very dynamic way, where Abolisher did not give you that dynamic.
This deck looks like a ton of fun. How about posting some test results!
Of course, the Voice's on-death ability makes it stronger than Grand Abolisher.
I will once I actually play some matches with it. I went to the WMCQ and a PTQ this weekend so I haven't started testing for post-DGM Standard yet. Hopefully will find time for that this week.
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
twitter