A few people are interested in discussing the implications of the rotating standard on Standard Dredge / Self-Mill decks.
I know a lot of people are very excited about the new Golgari cards, but I'm skeptical about their potential impact.
Grisly Salvage looks like a potential replacement for Tracker's Instinct simply because it can hit land or creature and goes 1 card deeper. Tracker's flashback is really nice, especially later in the game. The mana cost of Grisly Salvage is a lot more severe so there are going to be times when we can't cast it on turn 2. I'm leaning on a split between Grisly Salvage, Mulch, Tracker's Instinct.
Lotleth Troll looks alright. He can throw creatures in the yard which we like and Tramples and Regenerates. I think he fits in much better in a BG Zombies build where you can discard Gravecrawler to the troll and then cast him from the yard. He won't go to our graveyard so it will be hard to get a turn 3 Splinterfright in if we cast the LOLtroll. He could fit in, but it's not a perfect fit.
Jarad, Lich Lord I like this guy. Hard to cast, but he gives us reach by flinging Ghoultrees and Splinterfrights. He can come back after a board wipe which is nice.
Kurozda Guildmage works awesome with Ghoultree and Splinterfrights and even Jarad. Both abilities. Intimidate is awesome and getting 10 or so 1/1 tokens can get you past an army of chump blockers.
Jarad's Orders is too slow. 4 mana for 1 in my hand and 1 in the graveyard and nothing if it's milled.
What this deck really needs is a card that brings land back from the graveyard. A spiritual successor to Life from the Loam if you will.
EDIT for clarity: Obviously Mulch is not even close to the same thing as Life From the Loam. I just mean that for a standard dredge/self-mill deck, Mulch is what you want to be using right now to pull land out if you need it.
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My 360 Peasant+ Cube!. Modern borders where possible, usually with the newest (or "best") art, and always the most readable card text. I also run all 10 painlands. My playgroup is super casual, as we have a fair number of newer or less experienced players. Typically we draft with 4 to 6 people, using 5 packs of 9.
Lotloth Troll's discard ability is huge in this deck because not only does it pump him, but it pumps Splinterfright, Boneyard Wurm and Jarad. And Jarad's "fling" ability is great for this deck
Scavenge may seem anti-synergistic, but actually helps against graveyard hate by using it to put counters on an otherwise 0/0 if they Tormod's Crypt you
What I like the most is that the deck will be able to stop playing subpar blue cards like the Skaabs. Something like junk-fright with unburial rites and one or two Jarad's Order wouldn't be too bad. Grisly Salvage will be pretty good me thinks.
I'm not sold of Jarad's Orders but this is a good start IMO.
I read the article but when Gavin mentioned using an Arbor Elf to ramp into a turn 2 Splinterfright I realized he hasn't really played this deck, or put that much thought into it.
Yeah Arbor Elf into Splinterfright is kind of teh dumb (nice 0/0 brah).
I also disagree with his 1 ofs, and 3x Jarad's Orders. Orders seems like a 2 of at best. Tree is junky sideboard material. Cagebreakers is meh.
I really wouldn't mind there being a simple 2 of Unburial Rites in that deck and a cozy way to touch white mana late (like isolated chapel, maybe temple garden). Even when you cannot hardcast Ghoultree being able to pick him back out of the bin for 4 mana to get a 10/10 is high value... especially with Jarad and the guildmage which were correct choices.
I just had to comment, I don't have much constructive in the way of this discussion right now other than I'm nodding in agreement at all the good points so far. My one little snipe here...I'm simply baffled by how utterly BAD Gavin Verhey's list is. I've played UG Splinterfight a fair bit at the start of Dark Ascension. The archetype as a whole has a few bad/unfair matchups, and a few holes in it's defenses, but the answer has always been simply play it more cohesively. What I mean by this is playing no less than 28-30 creatures. I don't care what kind of tricks Gavin is adding, he is hurting his Splinterfrights and Wurms SO HARD by playing 24 creatures. More things to durdle for creatures? JUST PLAY MORE CREATURES! Ack. Sorry, I had to let that out.
@ Stabulous and the blue zombies: I'm mostly in agreement, but I feel the only subpar blue zombie is the Armored Skaab. Screeching Skaab is a 5 star player in this deck, even if he is boring. He is exactly what we want, a creature that adds to the body count, and mills you if you cast him. Just to pose the challenge out there, I don't have the list or my deck on hand, but I can vouch that I only played 4x Tracker's Instincts and 1-2 Artful Dodge and 1-2 Gnaw to the Bone as the ONLY non creatures in the deck. TLDR The blue zombies having built in mill makes up for the lack of Mulch.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I'm probably in the minority but I think Armored Skaab is really good in the meta right now. Look at all the things he blocks profitably and when the time comes he'll chump something huge. Screeching Skaab is alright but he doesn't interact well with Zombies. If Birds of Paradise isn't reprinted it will be much more difficult to ramp into a turn 2 Armored Skaab / Turn 3 Splinterfright. If I lose Birds I'll probably up the number of two drops and would run Screeching Skaab instead of Armored Skaab.
Also, the Mulch in Standard Dredge isn't for just putting creatures in the graveyard, it's for getting lands in your hand and creatures in the yard. This allows us to run less lands than normal midrange decks.
i read that article and yes...it, for the most part, is a joke.
however, there are some decent points to be made from it.
if this deck is not going to be running blue, which i dont think it will be post rotation...there is no need for turn 1 mana dorks. the best thing this deck had going for it was a turn 2 armored skaab, but that isnt going to be the case anymore. plus dorks die often and its a waste of 4 slots.
ive had a great deal of success playing UG Splinterfright for the first 6 months of the year and im pretty excited to play it again.
the list i will be running(barring any other cards that come out: im looking at you GOLGARI CHARM)
Still not sold on the LOLtroll. Sinking too many cards into this guy is just asking to get blown out and what cards are we discarding for him?
Gravecrawler and LOLtroll stay out of the graveyard and if they are our early plays we're not going to set up Splinterfrights or Ghoultrees in a timely fashion.
I could be completely wrong about him but I think he's not very good for this list.
no blue is not needed anymore.
LOLtroll is good against the GY hate, plus he has a good targets in gravecrawler and your extra Jarad's...even still i agree, he isnt the best and he is the 2 flex spots in my deck.
also, this deck is a lot less weak to GY hate than the old UG version. yes, tormods crypt still exists, but if you are smart, you play around it. its not hard.
If you have starcity premium take a look at Gerry Thompson point of view of this deck.
We need some testing on the mill engine running only much and grisly salvage.
In my opinion, the goal of this deck is to cast splinterfright as fast as possible (turn 3). Both mulch and grisly make that possible, loltroll can also help but i dont think it is the best option.
i agree...
if Golgari Charm is what i think it will be...it will be replacing Lotleth troll and possibly a boneyard wurm or 2.
i dont have premium so i cannot read Gerry Ts article.
Blue for this deck always seemed to be for turbo-milling since that was our only option in term of colors unless we wanted to go red.
Now it's like.. black kinda does its job.. Plus, I want to try out Jarad.. The mana shouldn't be too bad if we go 2 color + maybe a splash with mulch in main.
Not really sold on his orders though. Seems too much like diabolic tutor in costs, which is something this deck can't afford to do: Durdle more than it already does.
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It is fine to have beliefs. It is idiotic to think that they are in any way significant.
I'd rather use forbidden Alchemy over jarad's orders you get a card plus it has flashback. I also like the idea of using Havengul Lich to reanimate Ghoultree. I think that Unbreathing Horde could also be used in this deck as blocker. I'm also try to figure out if Rancor could somehow fit into the list.
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"I'm a sum of experiences. That is what it means to be human." - Me
Mansdorks are really weak in this deck due to not having a 3 mana turn two play. While you don't want to have 0 turn one plays, I think I'd give Ulvenwald Tracker a 4-of spot before mana dorks. Here's to hoping birds get reprinted!
Mansdorks are really weak in this deck due to not having a 3 mana turn two play. While you don't want to have 0 turn one plays, I think I'd give Ulvenwald Tracker a 4-of spot before mana dorks. Here's to hoping birds get reprinted!
Gravecrawler is your one drop
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I know a lot of people are very excited about the new Golgari cards, but I'm skeptical about their potential impact.
Grisly Salvage looks like a potential replacement for Tracker's Instinct simply because it can hit land or creature and goes 1 card deeper. Tracker's flashback is really nice, especially later in the game. The mana cost of Grisly Salvage is a lot more severe so there are going to be times when we can't cast it on turn 2. I'm leaning on a split between Grisly Salvage, Mulch, Tracker's Instinct.
Lotleth Troll looks alright. He can throw creatures in the yard which we like and Tramples and Regenerates. I think he fits in much better in a BG Zombies build where you can discard Gravecrawler to the troll and then cast him from the yard. He won't go to our graveyard so it will be hard to get a turn 3 Splinterfright in if we cast the LOLtroll. He could fit in, but it's not a perfect fit.
Jarad, Lich Lord I like this guy. Hard to cast, but he gives us reach by flinging Ghoultrees and Splinterfrights. He can come back after a board wipe which is nice.
Kurozda Guildmage works awesome with Ghoultree and Splinterfrights and even Jarad. Both abilities. Intimidate is awesome and getting 10 or so 1/1 tokens can get you past an army of chump blockers.
Jarad's Orders is too slow. 4 mana for 1 in my hand and 1 in the graveyard and nothing if it's milled.
What this deck really needs is a card that brings land back from the graveyard. A spiritual successor to Life from the Loam if you will.
I think the card you're looking for is Mulch.
EDIT for clarity: Obviously Mulch is not even close to the same thing as Life From the Loam. I just mean that for a standard dredge/self-mill deck, Mulch is what you want to be using right now to pull land out if you need it.
Scavenge may seem anti-synergistic, but actually helps against graveyard hate by using it to put counters on an otherwise 0/0 if they Tormod's Crypt you
I read the article but when Gavin mentioned using an Arbor Elf to ramp into a turn 2 Splinterfright I realized he hasn't really played this deck, or put that much thought into it.
I also disagree with his 1 ofs, and 3x Jarad's Orders. Orders seems like a 2 of at best. Tree is junky sideboard material. Cagebreakers is meh.
I really wouldn't mind there being a simple 2 of Unburial Rites in that deck and a cozy way to touch white mana late (like isolated chapel, maybe temple garden). Even when you cannot hardcast Ghoultree being able to pick him back out of the bin for 4 mana to get a 10/10 is high value... especially with Jarad and the guildmage which were correct choices.
@ Stabulous and the blue zombies: I'm mostly in agreement, but I feel the only subpar blue zombie is the Armored Skaab. Screeching Skaab is a 5 star player in this deck, even if he is boring. He is exactly what we want, a creature that adds to the body count, and mills you if you cast him. Just to pose the challenge out there, I don't have the list or my deck on hand, but I can vouch that I only played 4x Tracker's Instincts and 1-2 Artful Dodge and 1-2 Gnaw to the Bone as the ONLY non creatures in the deck. TLDR The blue zombies having built in mill makes up for the lack of Mulch.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
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Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Also, the Mulch in Standard Dredge isn't for just putting creatures in the graveyard, it's for getting lands in your hand and creatures in the yard. This allows us to run less lands than normal midrange decks.
however, there are some decent points to be made from it.
if this deck is not going to be running blue, which i dont think it will be post rotation...there is no need for turn 1 mana dorks. the best thing this deck had going for it was a turn 2 armored skaab, but that isnt going to be the case anymore. plus dorks die often and its a waste of 4 slots.
ive had a great deal of success playing UG Splinterfright for the first 6 months of the year and im pretty excited to play it again.
the list i will be running(barring any other cards that come out: im looking at you GOLGARI CHARM)
4x Woodland Cemetary
5x Swamp
9x Forest
4x Boneyard Wurm
4x Splinterfright
2x Disciple of Bolas
3x Gravecrawler
3x Ghoultree
2x Jarad
4x Dreg Mangler
3x Deadbridge Goliath
2x Lotleth Troll
4x Grisly Salvage
3x Jarad's Command
3x Grafdiggers Cage
3x Curse of Death's Hold
3x Thragtusk
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Vraska
Gravecrawler and LOLtroll stay out of the graveyard and if they are our early plays we're not going to set up Splinterfrights or Ghoultrees in a timely fashion.
I could be completely wrong about him but I think he's not very good for this list.
Personally I don't think so, Tracker's Instincts was always the weak card in the deck and the blue mill dudes don't do anything except... mill
LOLtroll is good against the GY hate, plus he has a good targets in gravecrawler and your extra Jarad's...even still i agree, he isnt the best and he is the 2 flex spots in my deck.
also, this deck is a lot less weak to GY hate than the old UG version. yes, tormods crypt still exists, but if you are smart, you play around it. its not hard.
i agree...
if Golgari Charm is what i think it will be...it will be replacing Lotleth troll and possibly a boneyard wurm or 2.
i dont have premium so i cannot read Gerry Ts article.
Now it's like.. black kinda does its job.. Plus, I want to try out Jarad.. The mana shouldn't be too bad if we go 2 color + maybe a splash with mulch in main.
Not really sold on his orders though. Seems too much like diabolic tutor in costs, which is something this deck can't afford to do: Durdle more than it already does.
Sacrifce Ghoultree to make ten 1/1, sacrifice them to Grimgrin and swing then Sacrifice Grimgrin with Jarad.
Use Havengul Lich to recast Jarad from the Graveyard then Sacrifice Jarad to Havengul Lich.
Yes indeed BUG Zombie Dredge will be a fun deck to play.
Gravecrawler is your one drop