No terminus`? great against, undying, yard-decks and morbid. It owns the current meta (not all the decks, but a decent amount of them. ). Also 23 lands are quite few for this sort of deck. You might want to bump up to 25 and on top of that even add in some pristine talisman.
I had the talisman's in there for a while. I took them out. Terminus I have in the sideboard. I think I want to move back to the 3 Solemn Sim, 2 Talisman plan I had before, and find room for atleast one Tamiyo.
terminus is a must have mainboard for any control deck running white. in the current meta, it is almost always better than day of judgment, for two reasons. 1: it can potentially cost 1 mana. 2: a lot of meta game decks rely on creatures either staying in their graveyards to recur them, or having creatures be "destroyed" to take advantage of undying. i can't express how good this card is against zombies, which a lot of people tend to play, at least at the fnm's i attend. also, i can see why you would want snapcaster, but i don't think restoration angel will do much for you here. restoration angel is either good for protecting the vital creatures you control (tokens not being amongst them, usually), or manipulating enter the battlefield effects.
tamiyo is also an incredible combo with gideon, as well as being a great control card, especially following a terminus/day of judgment. also, if youre running white and black, consider lingering souls.
You have too many creatures. A control deck isn't about asking the questions, its about giving the answers. Roughly half to two-thirds of your deck should be board control that includes spot removal like Oblivion Ring and wrath effects like Day of Judgement and Terminus. Counterspells are sub-par right now because of Cavern of Souls. Focus on interacting with the board. Your win cons should be cards that cost between five to seven or more mana. This is because, these creatures are the ones that really create a board presence for yourself. Creatures I suggest you play include Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Consecrated Sphinx, Wurmcoil Engine, Entreat the Angels, and Gideon Jura. Cantrips are important to dig through your deck so run four Think Twice and four Ponder. These two cards also let you set up miracle draws on your opponent's turn.
I understand. I'm not so worried about countering creatures, because I can easily wipe the board with the doj and term. and if have to, flash with snap to caster doj. My reasoning for putting in the counters to keep my win cons alive against other removal.
Killing Wave, GftT, DB, DoJ, Bonfire. Occasionally, a creature not cast from Cavern will definitely catch the counter, depending upon its value during situations. However, I don't have a Elesh or a Consecrated. And I'd hate to trade for something thats going to rotate in less then 4 weeks.
If anything, I could drop 2 Dissipate, 2 Fiend for 2 think twice and 2 oblivion ring.
I understand. I'm not so worried about countering creatures, because I can easily wipe the board with the doj and term. and if have to, flash with snap to caster doj. My reasoning for putting in the counters to keep my win cons alive against other removal.
Killing Wave, GftT, DB, DoJ, Bonfire. Occasionally, a creature not cast from Cavern will definitely catch the counter, depending upon its value during situations. However, I don't have a Elesh or a Consecrated. And I'd hate to trade for something thats going to rotate in less then 4 weeks.
If anything, I could drop 2 Dissipate, 2 Fiend for 2 think twice and 2 oblivion ring.
If you want a 3-drop creature that still fits the control shell I'd try running Fettergeist. He is simply amazing. He dispatches every 1-3 CMC aggro creature currently in the format. He can also get in for some good damage early if the board is empty. Dissipate is the counter you want to keep in the situation where you get a Tamiyo Emblem. A renewable counter that eats flashback spells and keeps creatures away from Unburial Rites is just nuts.
Edit: Not to bring budget into this thread, but after a quick look on Starcitygames, and Blackboarder, you can get an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite for pretty cheap. She's floating between 10-15 right now.
Silverblade paladins aren't needed, they're just completley the wrong card for this deck.
You need more land, if you can't get the 4th glacial fortress or any seachrome coasts, run some evolving wilds and some ghost quarters, you want 25 land in this deck and more colour fixing than you have.
You also should be running at least two oblivion ring.
To make space for 3 extra land and two oblivion rings, I'd cut the 2 Paladins, the 2 Negates and perhaps one of the Restoration Angels or one of the Snapcasters.
(Note, whilst I say three extra land (assuming no budget) I'm actually recommending 4 evolving wilds and 2 ghost quarter, and remove an island and two plains to make space.)
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
Ok, starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel now. O Ring is definitely something I will be kicking myself for not having.
I put in the 4 Evolving, 2 Ghost. I can definitely get the 4th Glacial before FNM starts.
Dropped the two Paladins, one Resto Angel, and two negates.
Kind of found myself flooding myself with so much land. That is why I'm afraid to run so much land. Not sure how to fit Fetter in.
Budget definitely isn't my worry. Would just hate to trade current for rotated later. Being that my Commander decks are non existent, no use for her there.
Sorry for the double post. Just play tested with 25 lands. And got flooded both times. Even with Ponder throwing them back in the pond. Moving to +2 Think Twice, -2 Lands.
Sorry for the double post. Just play tested with 25 lands. And got flooded both times. Even with Ponder throwing them back in the pond. Moving to +2 Think Twice, -2 Lands.
It is true that a heavy land count will cause you to flood out some games, but you have to make your land drops because your deck shines mid-late game. It doesn't care about the early game. You have to run as many cantrips as possible to work against flooding. This means that you run 4 Ponder and 4 Think Twice. You will find yourself with more problems missing land drops with high cost cards in your hand than you would with flooding out. This is why you are able to run high cost cards that can auto-win when they stick. As a veteran control player for the past six years, my one word of advice is that you always want lands. Most of my control decks run 27 lands. To me, 25 is low.
couldnt agree with kc more. a land drop EVERY turn is 100% vital to a control deck's success. especially this one, where your main win condition (entreat) is dependent on how many lands you have. the bottom line is, if you are able to keep the board controlled and have constant land base to cast ANYTHING you need, youre going to CONTROL the game, which is the basis of the deck to begin with. and in regards to oblivion ring, i'd honestly rather sideboard it and mainboard 2 devastation tide. the problem with the miracles deck is that it doesnt really have answers for planeswalkers, and while oblivion ring does that, i'd much rather miracle a devastation tide for 2 mana which not only resets their planeswalkers, but the rest of their board as well. and then when game 1 is over, you can see if you need that oblivion ring or not. again, i cant stress enough how vital lands are in this game. if you need a reference point, nassif's 5cc ran 27 lands, and has set the standard (in my opinion) for control decks. having tons of lands in a high cost deck means you will be able to cast anything you have in your deck. if a b/r zombie deck runs 22 lands, and your curve is much much higher, it only makes sense to run a ton of lands, to e able to even hard cast your miracle cards when necessary.
also, i question mana leak in the deck. its an excellent card, dont get me wrong. but the objective of the miracles deck is not to counter one card, but to clear the board to make way for your powerful control cards (i.e. entreat, tamiyo, gideon, etc.) snapcaster+mana leak is 7-8 cards, gives you slight delay, but nothing wrecks the meta game more than clearing the board and dropping your tamiyo or gideon, or even entreat.
Guys thanks for all the different points of view. Loving the help.
So im thinking then -frosty, -1 mana leak, -2 fiend for 3 land. From the sb -1 frosty -1 graf move the o ring to sb and put in two devistation in mb. Sound good?
Guys thanks for all the different points of view. Loving the help.
So im thinking then -frosty, -1 mana leak, -2 fiend for 3 land. From the sb -1 frosty -1 graf move the o ring to sb and put in two devistation in mb. Sound good?
Here is a sample control shell that I've used in the past for UW:
The list is very focused on interacting with the board. If you don't want to run Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, you can try a third Gideon Jura or a third Oblivion Ring. Devastation Tide is a very unique card for a very unique deck, but not for a traditional UW Control deck, which is what you are aiming for. Try this list out, proxy up if you have to, and see how it runs. Make changes to it as you see fit, as it may help your play style and lead to better results. This list is based on how I play control and that's with lots of board interaction and less counter, especially with Cavern of Souls being played.
I note the problem with relying on devestation tide is that they can replay the stuff, it slows them down it doesn't stop them, if they play a PW and you use Tide they can replay it the next turn, you need some sort of actual answer unless you have a fast way to kill them.
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
Round 1: 2-1 Humans. Tamiyo and Gideon lock down, misplay by opponent, Played Sun Titan, should have O-Ring'd my Gideon to attack for win.
Round 2: 1-2 U/W Delver, First game opponent drew no mana. Second game, Delver wins. Third game, Saint Traft laying the smack down.
Round 3: 2-1 Bg Zombie Pod, Popped Tamiyo's Ultimate, opponent making me discard cards, kind of not worth the discard from Liliana.
Round 4: 0-2 Get'er Dungrove, too fast, couldn't top deck a Terminus or DoJ to wipe the board multiple times to slow it down.
Round 5: 0-2 Mono-Green Infect, Infect is a cheap way to get wins and absolutely a peice of crap deck. Just like Red, I don't play Infect.
The deck idea is great, synergy in the deck is like no other. But, the Mechanic itself is just absolutely lame and absolutely bad. I would rather play Delver decks for the rest of my life, then to sit down and lose to infect. You can tell no one likes the deck because out of 25 players, 1 person plays an infect deck.
I saw infect when it first broke into a top list, played against it in two FNMs, and never saw it again, until tonight. The reason is because its just all around a much larger annoyance then control, and people who frequent the store I go to, are there for the camaraderie and the fun. I don't know a single person who takes FNM seriously, if you do, time for a new hobby. If you want to be hated very quickly in a group setting, bring an infect deck out.
Its like the 12 yr old kid in Call of Duty running around with a shotgun thinking hes good, because he can one shot you with a shotgun. Shotgun doesnt require aim or skill. Just pull the trigger, you'll hit something and mostly likely kill it. Activate my Inkmoth, put on Rancor, drop mutagenics, game? Thats not any fun. You know you are cheap when you play infect to try and win prizes so you don't have to actually buy packs.
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And honestly, there isn't anything that anyone can say or prove to me that the deck is good. My opinion is unfortunately a closed opinion and is unable to be shifted.
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I feel I have vented my frustration. Unfortunately, the cat senses my anger and doesn't want to come close.
Aside from the rage post above. I feel as though the deck handled alot of things just right, Gideon was the perfect aggro attention setter and stalling for me to ramp up to awesomeness. Best ponder of the night for me was a Land, Temporal Mastery and Entreat. Gideon got to swing for 12 thanks to Temporal.
I need a good three drop as Kc497 suggested. Currently on the lookout for some Geist. Unfortunately, I don't own any, but have the cards to definitely get a play set.
Also, the Mana Leak Question. Snapcaster + Mana Leak saved me in a lot of games.
If you want to destroy the dreams of mono green infect, run a playset of spellskite and a playset of gutshot out of the sideboard. Spellskite especially yields delicious results.
With that being said, heres the list that I modified.
I know this isnt a Tier 1 Deck. However, I want to take it to FNM's and SCG IQ's. Just to see how well I can do with it and get some free packs. lol
2x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Restoration Angel
2x Blade Splicer
2x Dissipate
2x Terminus
3x Day of Judgment
2x Mana Leak
2x Gut Shot
4x Ponder
2x Think Twice
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Moorland Haunt
11x Island
4x Plains
2x Gut Shot
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Celestial Purge
3x Phantasmal Image
2x Divine Offering
2x Feeling of Dread
1x Divine Deflection
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I had the talisman's in there for a while. I took them out. Terminus I have in the sideboard. I think I want to move back to the 3 Solemn Sim, 2 Talisman plan I had before, and find room for atleast one Tamiyo.
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Have to dig out my Moorlands for 3 Plains.
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Killing Wave, GftT, DB, DoJ, Bonfire. Occasionally, a creature not cast from Cavern will definitely catch the counter, depending upon its value during situations. However, I don't have a Elesh or a Consecrated. And I'd hate to trade for something thats going to rotate in less then 4 weeks.
If anything, I could drop 2 Dissipate, 2 Fiend for 2 think twice and 2 oblivion ring.
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If you want a 3-drop creature that still fits the control shell I'd try running Fettergeist. He is simply amazing. He dispatches every 1-3 CMC aggro creature currently in the format. He can also get in for some good damage early if the board is empty. Dissipate is the counter you want to keep in the situation where you get a Tamiyo Emblem. A renewable counter that eats flashback spells and keeps creatures away from Unburial Rites is just nuts.
Edit: Not to bring budget into this thread, but after a quick look on Starcitygames, and Blackboarder, you can get an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite for pretty cheap. She's floating between 10-15 right now.
You need more land, if you can't get the 4th glacial fortress or any seachrome coasts, run some evolving wilds and some ghost quarters, you want 25 land in this deck and more colour fixing than you have.
You also should be running at least two oblivion ring.
To make space for 3 extra land and two oblivion rings, I'd cut the 2 Paladins, the 2 Negates and perhaps one of the Restoration Angels or one of the Snapcasters.
(Note, whilst I say three extra land (assuming no budget) I'm actually recommending 4 evolving wilds and 2 ghost quarter, and remove an island and two plains to make space.)
I put in the 4 Evolving, 2 Ghost. I can definitely get the 4th Glacial before FNM starts.
Dropped the two Paladins, one Resto Angel, and two negates.
Kind of found myself flooding myself with so much land. That is why I'm afraid to run so much land. Not sure how to fit Fetter in.
Budget definitely isn't my worry. Would just hate to trade current for rotated later. Being that my Commander decks are non existent, no use for her there.
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It is true that a heavy land count will cause you to flood out some games, but you have to make your land drops because your deck shines mid-late game. It doesn't care about the early game. You have to run as many cantrips as possible to work against flooding. This means that you run 4 Ponder and 4 Think Twice. You will find yourself with more problems missing land drops with high cost cards in your hand than you would with flooding out. This is why you are able to run high cost cards that can auto-win when they stick. As a veteran control player for the past six years, my one word of advice is that you always want lands. Most of my control decks run 27 lands. To me, 25 is low.
So im thinking then -frosty, -1 mana leak, -2 fiend for 3 land. From the sb -1 frosty -1 graf move the o ring to sb and put in two devistation in mb. Sound good?
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Here is a sample control shell that I've used in the past for UW:
4 Think Twice
Sorceries(20)
4 Day of Judgment
4 Terminus
4 Ponder
4 Entreat the Angels
4 Temporal Mastery
2 Oblivion Ring
Planeswalkers(4)
2 Gideon Jura
2 Tamayo, the Moon Sage
Creatures(4)
3 Fettergeist
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Evolving Wilds
10 Plains
8 Island
The list is very focused on interacting with the board. If you don't want to run Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, you can try a third Gideon Jura or a third Oblivion Ring. Devastation Tide is a very unique card for a very unique deck, but not for a traditional UW Control deck, which is what you are aiming for. Try this list out, proxy up if you have to, and see how it runs. Make changes to it as you see fit, as it may help your play style and lead to better results. This list is based on how I play control and that's with lots of board interaction and less counter, especially with Cavern of Souls being played.
Round 1: 2-1 Humans. Tamiyo and Gideon lock down, misplay by opponent, Played Sun Titan, should have O-Ring'd my Gideon to attack for win.
Round 2: 1-2 U/W Delver, First game opponent drew no mana. Second game, Delver wins. Third game, Saint Traft laying the smack down.
Round 3: 2-1 Bg Zombie Pod, Popped Tamiyo's Ultimate, opponent making me discard cards, kind of not worth the discard from Liliana.
Round 4: 0-2 Get'er Dungrove, too fast, couldn't top deck a Terminus or DoJ to wipe the board multiple times to slow it down.
Round 5: 0-2 Mono-Green Infect, Infect is a cheap way to get wins and absolutely a peice of crap deck. Just like Red, I don't play Infect.
The deck idea is great, synergy in the deck is like no other. But, the Mechanic itself is just absolutely lame and absolutely bad. I would rather play Delver decks for the rest of my life, then to sit down and lose to infect. You can tell no one likes the deck because out of 25 players, 1 person plays an infect deck.
I saw infect when it first broke into a top list, played against it in two FNMs, and never saw it again, until tonight. The reason is because its just all around a much larger annoyance then control, and people who frequent the store I go to, are there for the camaraderie and the fun. I don't know a single person who takes FNM seriously, if you do, time for a new hobby. If you want to be hated very quickly in a group setting, bring an infect deck out.
Its like the 12 yr old kid in Call of Duty running around with a shotgun thinking hes good, because he can one shot you with a shotgun. Shotgun doesnt require aim or skill. Just pull the trigger, you'll hit something and mostly likely kill it. Activate my Inkmoth, put on Rancor, drop mutagenics, game? Thats not any fun. You know you are cheap when you play infect to try and win prizes so you don't have to actually buy packs.
----
And honestly, there isn't anything that anyone can say or prove to me that the deck is good. My opinion is unfortunately a closed opinion and is unable to be shifted.
-----
I feel I have vented my frustration. Unfortunately, the cat senses my anger and doesn't want to come close.
Aside from the rage post above. I feel as though the deck handled alot of things just right, Gideon was the perfect aggro attention setter and stalling for me to ramp up to awesomeness. Best ponder of the night for me was a Land, Temporal Mastery and Entreat. Gideon got to swing for 12 thanks to Temporal.
I need a good three drop as Kc497 suggested. Currently on the lookout for some Geist. Unfortunately, I don't own any, but have the cards to definitely get a play set.
Also, the Mana Leak Question. Snapcaster + Mana Leak saved me in a lot of games.
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Added in a fourth Geist for Probe. Need to draw him moar.
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