While I understand that vapor snag gives tempo, but so does unsummon. honestly, other than 1 life, why is this card used so much when unsummon has like never seen play in the last 3-4 years other than limited. You are still down CA and with so much focus on undying and ETB triggers, it's not like this card is broken or has standard gotten to the point where speed is everything? I have never seen fairies, merfolks, or cawblade use unsummon before (and those were considered tempo decks), heck, switch unsummon for snag and barely anyone would notice the difference.
During caw standard into the roil was used instead. I cant say for the standards before that for i did not play before then.
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Into the Roil is leagues better, as it has the option of a cantrip and hits noncreature permanents. Vapor snag is only good because of the perfect storm of Snapcaster and aggresive blue creatures with powerful equipment.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
Because Snapcaster, Geist, and Delver are around. Snapcaster lets it get multiple uses and Delver and Geist put on a lot of pressure, making tempo cards much better.
If you drop a Delver on turn 1, then flip him n turn two, and snag their play, you are so far ahead.
Because Snapcaster, Geist, and Delver are around. Snapcaster lets it get multiple uses and Delver and Geist put on a lot of pressure, making tempo cards much better.
If you drop a Delver on turn 1, then flip him n turn two, and snag their play, you are so far ahead.
that's like assuming ur opponent isn't holding a 1 mana answer. there are so many 1 mana answers to delver while all snag does is just stop their turn 1-2 play for a turn while lose CA when they can just kill delver for 1 mana with either gutshot, pillar of fire, tragic slip, galvanic blast, dead weight, etc
Snag gets dudes out of the way so your dudes can hit your opponent. It would see no play if there was any decent 1-2 mana white removal. But, since there isn't; wam it sees play. It should be noted it's super awful against Hexproof and Titans.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
While I understand that vapor snag gives tempo, but so does unsummon. honestly, other than 1 life, why is this card used so much when unsummon has like never seen play in the last 3-4 years other than limited. You are still down CA and with so much focus on undying and ETB triggers, it's not like this card is broken or has standard gotten to the point where speed is everything? I have never seen fairies, merfolks, or cawblade use unsummon before (and those were considered tempo decks), heck, switch unsummon for snag and barely anyone would notice the difference.
While it is true that Delver have the option of playing Dismember or Gut Shot, the former is very life intensive when used in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage, while the later is very limited in range.
It's still not colorless, and has no color. That's a paradox. So either you're a Zen master or an idiot, I'll assume the Zen master for sake of argument. This card will have no paradoxes because it has a clear paradox. Deep stuff man.
that's like assuming ur opponent isn't holding a 1 mana answer. there are so many 1 mana answers to delver while all snag does is just stop their turn 1-2 play for a turn while lose CA when they can just kill delver for 1 mana with either gutshot, pillar of fire, tragic slip, galvanic blast, dead weight, etc
Right, however all this 1 mana removal other than Tragic Slip potentially has reduced returns. It goes from being very effective early game to nearly useless midgame. Vapor Snag might be a bump in the road but it retains value as long as the opponents deck is efficient to greedy on it's curve.
This of course is obvious.. the tricky part however, is due to Snapcaster and Delver 1 mana answers are actually better in a Delver deck than they are in other decks unless they plan to exhaust considerable resources to removal (like RDW, which gains reach from it's burn). WhiteCreatures.dec doesn't want to play Gut Shot. Since they might get somewhere with it, or it might be completely dead. Snapcaster atleast gives you value on it. No one else really wants Vapor Snag since they can't capitalize on it nearly as much.
I often state that what makes some archetypes possible is a certain redundancy and efficiency in the card pool to make some sort of resource transfer reach a threshold that it is playable. Given enough Lightning Bolts you can play straight burn (etc).Given enough cheap-efficient permission you can play drawgo.dec. Snapcaster in itself effectively increases the redundancy of cheap instant and sorceries at minimal cost of slots. This inherent value in the deck construction can't be underestimated.
I had a similar conversation with a player during Caw Blade's reign trying to explain why Spell Pierce was better than Negate in the deck. It was simply that the cost of a spell is the largest factor dictating it's power level and when efficiency in time is more important than overall flexibility the card value goes up in spades. When someone says X would be so good if it was 1 cheaper, well obviously.. Reducing cost by 1 is probably bigger than the change from bulk common to best mythic for a lot of cards. The lower the initial cost of the spell the greater this effect is. When new sets come out I usually focus on the <4 drops since those cards regardless of rarity will have the biggest effect on a format. Your 5 drop finisher might be better or worse than before but that isn't where games are won.
Anyway, adding the 1 damage to Unsummon not only is a significant power boost on a 1 mana spell, it provides more value for the time sensitive sort of deck that would appreciate an Unsummon. Snapcaster turning it into a Man-O-War that pings you for 1 is not a small feat. Vapor, Snapcaster, Vapor Snag not only bounces 2 creatures at instant speed for 4 mana (and 2 cards) but it also shocks the opponent and leaves you a 2/1 flash. Counting the damage that Snapcaster gets in typically, I would say I lose upwards of 6-8 damage per game against Delver in a game from this interaction just from these 2 cards, and the amount of damage they save themselves from me playing a creature deck(between tempo loss and Snapcaster blocks) is probably about close to double that. It's probably close to 16-20 point life swing over a game. Gut Shot providing redundancy for this effect for the first turn or so means that with Snapcaster you reach a threshold where you are basically playing up to 12 of these effects in the early game. Given the selective nature of Snapcaster it feels more like 16. Basically doubling all those spells effectiveness for the cost of 4 slots for Snapcaster. Any additional spells like Mana Leak or Ponder on top of this only amplify this effect.
I hope it is clear from this to recognize why this is very different from unsummon. I have to admit it wasn't obvious when the cards first were spoiled to most and that is why Delver took a couple month or so to really get going in the fall. But looking at it after the fact it's pretty straight forward I think to see what makes the deck tick.
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Coupled with Geist and Delver its a pretty insane setup and remains versatile throughout the game. Played a game a few days ago and bounced some guys Wurmcoil like 4 turns in a row, it was pretty goofy. You can pretty much get value out of it at any point in a game since every STD deck involves turning creatures sideways.
Right, however all this 1 mana removal other than Tragic Slip potentially has reduced returns. It goes from being very effective early game to nearly useless midgame. Vapor Snag might be a bump in the road but it retains value as long as the opponents deck is efficient to greedy on it's curve.
This of course is obvious.. the tricky part however, is due to Snapcaster and Delver 1 mana answers are actually better in a Delver deck than they are in other decks unless they plan to exhaust considerable resources to removal (like RDW, which gains reach from it's burn). WhiteCreatures.dec doesn't want to play Gut Shot. Since they might get somewhere with it, or it might be completely dead. Snapcaster atleast gives you value on it. No one else really wants Vapor Snag since they can't capitalize on it nearly as much.
I often state that what makes some archetypes possible is a certain redundancy and efficiency in the card pool to make some sort of resource transfer reach a threshold that it is playable. Given enough Lightning Bolts you can play straight burn (etc).Given enough cheap-efficient permission you can play drawgo.dec. Snapcaster in itself effectively increases the redundancy of cheap instant and sorceries at minimal cost of slots. This inherent value in the deck construction can't be underestimated.
I had a similar conversation with a player during Caw Blade's reign trying to explain why Spell Pierce was better than Negate in the deck. It was simply that the cost of a spell is the largest factor dictating it's power level and when efficiency in time is more important than overall flexibility the card value goes up in spades. When someone says X would be so good if it was 1 cheaper, well obviously.. Reducing cost by 1 is probably bigger than the change from bulk common to best mythic for a lot of cards. The lower the initial cost of the spell the greater this effect is. When new sets come out I usually focus on the <4 drops since those cards regardless of rarity will have the biggest effect on a format. Your 5 drop finisher might be better or worse than before but that isn't where games are won.
Anyway, adding the 1 damage to Unsummon not only is a significant power boost on a 1 mana spell, it provides more value for the time sensitive sort of deck that would appreciate an Unsummon. Snapcaster turning it into a Man-O-War that pings you for 1 is not a small feat. Vapor, Snapcaster, Vapor Snag not only bounces 2 creatures at instant speed for 4 mana (and 2 cards) but it also shocks the opponent and leaves you a 2/1 flash. Counting the damage that Snapcaster gets in typically, I would say I lose upwards of 6-8 damage per game against Delver in a game from this interaction just from these 2 cards, and the amount of damage they save themselves from me playing a creature deck(between tempo loss and Snapcaster blocks) is probably about close to double that. It's probably close to 16-20 point life swing over a game. Gut Shot providing redundancy for this effect for the first turn or so means that with Snapcaster you reach a threshold where you are basically playing up to 12 of these effects in the early game. Given the selective nature of Snapcaster it feels more like 16. Basically doubling all those spells effectiveness for the cost of 4 slots for Snapcaster. Any additional spells like Mana Leak or Ponder on top of this only amplify this effect.
I hope it is clear from this to recognize why this is very different from unsummon. I have to admit it wasn't obvious when the cards first were spoiled to most and that is why Delver took a couple month or so to really get going in the fall. But looking at it after the fact it's pretty straight forward I think to see what makes the deck tick.
Okay, but snapcaster mage makes everything good. Add an extra mana and you can flashback doomblade or go for the throat, arc trail, incinerate. It's actually CA, if a deck is designed for resiliency, then vapor snag isn't as good. Of course, it's not vapor snag's fault that everyone is greedy with their plays (still other than bouncing cards that have no ETB triggers), vapor snag is still CA disadvantage. Even with one mana answers, there are soo many 1-2 toughness creatures in the format that 75%+ of the time, you will have a target.
I can't count the number of times I had 2-3 snags in my hand only to play them as I bounce creatures back only to see them replayed again and hope my opponent only drew land while I was hopelessly waiting for a more permanent answer. Vapor snag is only good if you are ahead on board, which is not guaranteed (of course an alive delver of secrets helps, but 99% of the time it's killed on sight).
I see a lot of people throw Vapor Snag into blue decks that have no business playing it. They see it played in a top deck, and just assume that it's a great card for their deck too. The fact is that it's great with Geist of Saint Traft and Snapcaster Mage in aggro-control. Surely if Unsummon was in Standard and Vapor Snag wasn't, Unsummon would see wide play right now. Unsummon does what it does very efficiently, even to the point where it's seen much play in Vintage. It can be really really good in the right meta, and the one extra damage from Vapor Snag is just a slight bonus.
To try and put everything above simply, bounce effects like Vapor Snag or Unsummon are good tempo-wise, not card-wise. Blue decks based on tempo, e.g. Delver, can get some traction out of bounce where other high-tempo removal isn't as readily available. Before Delver, blue-based tempo decks either weren't around or were using other removal. But now, since Vapor is strictly better than Unsummon and other removal may not be as good, blue-based tempo decks prefer the Snag. And since Vapor comes from Scars of Mirrodin block and Delver comes from Innistrad, chances are if Delver survives rotation and no new removal comes in, Unsummon will replace Vapor.
Okay, but snapcaster mage makes everything good. Add an extra mana and you can flashback doomblade or go for the throat, arc trail, incinerate. It's actually CA, if a deck is designed for resiliency, then vapor snag isn't as good. Of course, it's not vapor snag's fault that everyone is greedy with their plays (still other than bouncing cards that have no ETB triggers), vapor snag is still CA disadvantage. Even with one mana answers, there are soo many 1-2 toughness creatures in the format that 75%+ of the time, you will have a target.
I can't count the number of times I had 2-3 snags in my hand only to play them as I bounce creatures back only to see them replayed again and hope my opponent only drew land while I was hopelessly waiting for a more permanent answer. Vapor snag is only good if you are ahead on board, which is not guaranteed (of course an alive delver of secrets helps, but 99% of the time it's killed on sight).
Sure it's not CA, but it IS a gain in tempo, which is what delver is. Delver is a tempo deck, as opposed to a straight aggro or control deck.
Okay, but snapcaster mage makes everything good. Add an extra mana and you can flashback doomblade or go for the throat, arc trail, incinerate. It's actually CA, if a deck is designed for resiliency, then vapor snag isn't as good. Of course, it's not vapor snag's fault that everyone is greedy with their plays (still other than bouncing cards that have no ETB triggers), vapor snag is still CA disadvantage. Even with one mana answers, there are soo many 1-2 toughness creatures in the format that 75%+ of the time, you will have a target.
I can't count the number of times I had 2-3 snags in my hand only to play them as I bounce creatures back only to see them replayed again and hope my opponent only drew land while I was hopelessly waiting for a more permanent answer. Vapor snag is only good if you are ahead on board, which is not guaranteed (of course an alive delver of secrets helps, but 99% of the time it's killed on sight).
Ok, I hate to be a jerk here, but clearly time has shown you to be wrong on the subject. It maintains being a 3-4 of staple in delver because it is a good card there.
You keep looking at things being solely card advantage, while Delver is not a card advantage style deck. Almost no card (beyond snapcaster, that's in for other reasons) makes card advantage. It is a straight tempo deck, relying on tempo cards and card selection to allow for maximum use of it's powerful early creatures.
Your issue seems to be assuming everything 100% right for your opponent all the time and if that were true, all tempo decks would be unplayable. You say delver always dies, but in truth, it doesn't. They need to have a 1-2 mana card that deals with it right away, or else they need to run their removal into a possible counterspell.
The whole point of decks like this in standard, and fish in legacy, are to punish your opponent for any stuttering. If you keep a hand with a delver and a mana leak, your opponent needs to have 100% the right cards, or they are pretty close to dead already.
I think something that people failed to mention is that it's soooo good vs. Wolf Run. Putting a Titan back in their hand or having your opponent not go all-in on Blinkmoth Nexus for fear of Vapor Snag or Snapcaster Mage is pretty good.
It's all about tempo, getting an extra damage from Runechanter's Pike or Sword of War and Peace and just straight up killing a Phantasmal Image or creature Token. Vapor Snag makes people play around it.
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Discouting nut draws and T2 blind flip delvers (revealing mana leak), the delver decks win by a turn. Maybe two, if they're lucky. I can't count the number of times I saved my last three HP with Vapor snag(s) only to swing back for pretty much exactly lethal. And, by the way, that's why the deck is challenging to play: delver plays on the margin constantly.
And that's why giving yourself two or three more turns (and chipping off a few HP from your opponent at the same time) is useful: that you're entire margin of victory. Without an Unsummon effect, I don't think Delver would be anywhere near as good.
While I understand that vapor snag gives tempo, but so does unsummon. honestly, other than 1 life, why is this card used so much when unsummon has like never seen play in the last 3-4 years other than limited. You are still down CA and with so much focus on undying and ETB triggers, it's not like this card is broken or has standard gotten to the point where speed is everything? I have never seen fairies, merfolks, or cawblade use unsummon before (and those were considered tempo decks), heck, switch unsummon for snag and barely anyone would notice the difference.
Unsummon isn't exactly a bad card, but it has frequently been overshadowed by better cards. Jace's Unsummon ability was a pretty important part of why that strategy worked so well. You don't need Unsummon itself when you have a powerhouse like Jace covering all the bases.
Tapping down a creature for a turn is often (but not always) weaker than unsummoning that creature. But when the effect is repeatable or comes attached to solid bodies like in Merfolk or Faeries, you don't need that one-shot effect.
Then there's counter magic, of course. A lot of times it has been better and easier to just counter their guys instead of bouncing them.
Again, all of that isn't to say that Unsummon is bad. It just hasn't been as good as other cards in the color have been.
I see a lot of people throw Vapor Snag into blue decks that have no business playing it. They see it played in a top deck, and just assume that it's a great card for their deck too. The fact is that it's great with Geist of Saint Traft and Snapcaster Mage in aggro-control. Surely if Unsummon was in Standard and Vapor Snag wasn't, Unsummon would see wide play right now. Unsummon does what it does very efficiently, even to the point where it's seen much play in Vintage. It can be really really good in the right meta, and the one extra damage from Vapor Snag is just a slight bonus.
People try to always tell me to run Vapor Snag in a control deck, and I want to cry.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
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If you drop a Delver on turn 1, then flip him n turn two, and snag their play, you are so far ahead.
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that's like assuming ur opponent isn't holding a 1 mana answer. there are so many 1 mana answers to delver while all snag does is just stop their turn 1-2 play for a turn while lose CA when they can just kill delver for 1 mana with either gutshot, pillar of fire, tragic slip, galvanic blast, dead weight, etc
By: ol MISAKA lo
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The 1 life lost granted by Vapor Snag does give Delver some form of reach in the late game. As it cost just U, making it easy to recur with Snapcaster Mage. Previous tempo decks didn't really needed it, as they had access to better removals (Terror/Doomblade/Agony Warp/Peppersmoke for Faeries, Path to Exile for Merfolks, Oust/Dismember/Into the Roil for Cawblade.
While it is true that Delver have the option of playing Dismember or Gut Shot, the former is very life intensive when used in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage, while the later is very limited in range.
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Right, however all this 1 mana removal other than Tragic Slip potentially has reduced returns. It goes from being very effective early game to nearly useless midgame. Vapor Snag might be a bump in the road but it retains value as long as the opponents deck is efficient to greedy on it's curve.
This of course is obvious.. the tricky part however, is due to Snapcaster and Delver 1 mana answers are actually better in a Delver deck than they are in other decks unless they plan to exhaust considerable resources to removal (like RDW, which gains reach from it's burn). WhiteCreatures.dec doesn't want to play Gut Shot. Since they might get somewhere with it, or it might be completely dead. Snapcaster atleast gives you value on it. No one else really wants Vapor Snag since they can't capitalize on it nearly as much.
I often state that what makes some archetypes possible is a certain redundancy and efficiency in the card pool to make some sort of resource transfer reach a threshold that it is playable. Given enough Lightning Bolts you can play straight burn (etc).Given enough cheap-efficient permission you can play drawgo.dec. Snapcaster in itself effectively increases the redundancy of cheap instant and sorceries at minimal cost of slots. This inherent value in the deck construction can't be underestimated.
I had a similar conversation with a player during Caw Blade's reign trying to explain why Spell Pierce was better than Negate in the deck. It was simply that the cost of a spell is the largest factor dictating it's power level and when efficiency in time is more important than overall flexibility the card value goes up in spades. When someone says X would be so good if it was 1 cheaper, well obviously.. Reducing cost by 1 is probably bigger than the change from bulk common to best mythic for a lot of cards. The lower the initial cost of the spell the greater this effect is. When new sets come out I usually focus on the <4 drops since those cards regardless of rarity will have the biggest effect on a format. Your 5 drop finisher might be better or worse than before but that isn't where games are won.
Anyway, adding the 1 damage to Unsummon not only is a significant power boost on a 1 mana spell, it provides more value for the time sensitive sort of deck that would appreciate an Unsummon. Snapcaster turning it into a Man-O-War that pings you for 1 is not a small feat. Vapor, Snapcaster, Vapor Snag not only bounces 2 creatures at instant speed for 4 mana (and 2 cards) but it also shocks the opponent and leaves you a 2/1 flash. Counting the damage that Snapcaster gets in typically, I would say I lose upwards of 6-8 damage per game against Delver in a game from this interaction just from these 2 cards, and the amount of damage they save themselves from me playing a creature deck(between tempo loss and Snapcaster blocks) is probably about close to double that. It's probably close to 16-20 point life swing over a game. Gut Shot providing redundancy for this effect for the first turn or so means that with Snapcaster you reach a threshold where you are basically playing up to 12 of these effects in the early game. Given the selective nature of Snapcaster it feels more like 16. Basically doubling all those spells effectiveness for the cost of 4 slots for Snapcaster. Any additional spells like Mana Leak or Ponder on top of this only amplify this effect.
I hope it is clear from this to recognize why this is very different from unsummon. I have to admit it wasn't obvious when the cards first were spoiled to most and that is why Delver took a couple month or so to really get going in the fall. But looking at it after the fact it's pretty straight forward I think to see what makes the deck tick.
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Coupled with Geist and Delver its a pretty insane setup and remains versatile throughout the game. Played a game a few days ago and bounced some guys Wurmcoil like 4 turns in a row, it was pretty goofy. You can pretty much get value out of it at any point in a game since every STD deck involves turning creatures sideways.
Okay, but snapcaster mage makes everything good. Add an extra mana and you can flashback doomblade or go for the throat, arc trail, incinerate. It's actually CA, if a deck is designed for resiliency, then vapor snag isn't as good. Of course, it's not vapor snag's fault that everyone is greedy with their plays (still other than bouncing cards that have no ETB triggers), vapor snag is still CA disadvantage. Even with one mana answers, there are soo many 1-2 toughness creatures in the format that 75%+ of the time, you will have a target.
I can't count the number of times I had 2-3 snags in my hand only to play them as I bounce creatures back only to see them replayed again and hope my opponent only drew land while I was hopelessly waiting for a more permanent answer. Vapor snag is only good if you are ahead on board, which is not guaranteed (of course an alive delver of secrets helps, but 99% of the time it's killed on sight).
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Sure it's not CA, but it IS a gain in tempo, which is what delver is. Delver is a tempo deck, as opposed to a straight aggro or control deck.
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Ok, I hate to be a jerk here, but clearly time has shown you to be wrong on the subject. It maintains being a 3-4 of staple in delver because it is a good card there.
You keep looking at things being solely card advantage, while Delver is not a card advantage style deck. Almost no card (beyond snapcaster, that's in for other reasons) makes card advantage. It is a straight tempo deck, relying on tempo cards and card selection to allow for maximum use of it's powerful early creatures.
Your issue seems to be assuming everything 100% right for your opponent all the time and if that were true, all tempo decks would be unplayable. You say delver always dies, but in truth, it doesn't. They need to have a 1-2 mana card that deals with it right away, or else they need to run their removal into a possible counterspell.
The whole point of decks like this in standard, and fish in legacy, are to punish your opponent for any stuttering. If you keep a hand with a delver and a mana leak, your opponent needs to have 100% the right cards, or they are pretty close to dead already.
=
"Sup dawg! I herd u like mountains so I equipped a mountain on your mountain so your can swing with land while you swing with land!"
It's all about tempo, getting an extra damage from Runechanter's Pike or Sword of War and Peace and just straight up killing a Phantasmal Image or creature Token. Vapor Snag makes people play around it.
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Discouting nut draws and T2 blind flip delvers (revealing mana leak), the delver decks win by a turn. Maybe two, if they're lucky. I can't count the number of times I saved my last three HP with Vapor snag(s) only to swing back for pretty much exactly lethal. And, by the way, that's why the deck is challenging to play: delver plays on the margin constantly.
And that's why giving yourself two or three more turns (and chipping off a few HP from your opponent at the same time) is useful: that you're entire margin of victory. Without an Unsummon effect, I don't think Delver would be anywhere near as good.
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Unsummon isn't exactly a bad card, but it has frequently been overshadowed by better cards. Jace's Unsummon ability was a pretty important part of why that strategy worked so well. You don't need Unsummon itself when you have a powerhouse like Jace covering all the bases.
Tapping down a creature for a turn is often (but not always) weaker than unsummoning that creature. But when the effect is repeatable or comes attached to solid bodies like in Merfolk or Faeries, you don't need that one-shot effect.
Then there's counter magic, of course. A lot of times it has been better and easier to just counter their guys instead of bouncing them.
Again, all of that isn't to say that Unsummon is bad. It just hasn't been as good as other cards in the color have been.
People try to always tell me to run Vapor Snag in a control deck, and I want to cry.
Oh, God, this. SOOO much this.