First post/thread on this website, and I know from lurking that this board is rather strict about enforcing its various posting rules, so lemme know if something is wrong.
So. Valakut.
I've been playing Boros since last block constructed, enjoying it and disliking Valakut (so innocent then) for over a year now. Fast forward to post-MBS Standard and I find myself losing to Valakut on a wildly consistent basis on MTGO. I run a fairly standard list of Boros, with the only significant difference being an absence of Teetering Peaks and no Sword of Feast and Famine yet, as the latter is still very scarce online without the official set release yet.
I hate to think the matchup is that simple and capricious, but is that really it? Does the deck need a pair of Peaks to tutor up after swiping a Primeval Titan to bash in with 11 trample power? There has to be something more going on here, no? I find I don't overextend into sweepers, but that I fail to ring in enough damage prior to the Valakut player clearing my board via Titan or some combination of ramp spells (usually the Khalni enchantment). Often I find the ramp player gets to put impediments in the way (Walls, removal, that Baloth) that are better at shutting down my guys than the control decks right now.
Thoughts on how to tackle this still large part of the Standard environment?
It really depends on the build they are playing with. Is it valakut with lotus cobras or just battlements and more ramp? How many sweepers do they run? If they do, I suggest you should play with firewalker. Koth and Marks should be good in the matchup too.
Are you playing with new cards like oxid ridge or crusader?
Running 2x of each (Hero, Crusader) at the moment.
I've been largely running into Battlements + Ramp versions. I'm finding that lists that run a slew of sweepers or lists that run a normal assortment still give me fits. By the time they stabilize, they're out of burn range and have the board locked down with colorless damage in the form of Valakut.
I've read varying opinions on the matchup, with some thinking it's definitely tilted to Boros and others thinking the opposite.
Don't wanna make this thread just about me, though.
Post a decklist so we can give better advice. Also post a list of cards you board in and out for this matchup. I know how you feel. They run sweepers in the main and more comming from their SB. They have GSZ, give them 100% assurance in getting the creature they need.
Yeah, the silver bullet that often gets thrown my way is, of all things, the Obstinate Baloth. 4 life and the aggressive 4/4 wall aspect winds up completely halting my advance unless I've landed a Sword or landed and stuck a Mirran Crusader, which is too infrequent to rely upon. It's enough impediment to let them continue to goldfish.
My list is damn similar enough to Rietzl's list; I like the Elder as a one-of but he'd be first cut to add another Crusader or Hero, though I'm not sure which.
Yeah, the silver bullet that often gets thrown my way is, of all things, the Obstinate Baloth. 4 life and the aggressive 4/4 wall aspect winds up completely halting my advance unless I've landed a Sword or landed and stuck a Mirran Crusader, which is too infrequent to rely upon. It's enough impediment to let them continue to goldfish.
My list is damn similar enough to Rietzl's list; I like the Elder as a one-of but he'd be first cut to add another Crusader or Hero, though I'm not sure which.
Sideboarding generally...
-2 Arc Trail
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Spikeshot
-1 Bonehoard
+3 Kor Firewalker
+2 Mark of Mutiny
+1 JTN
Lynx, geopede, adventuring gear, and squadron hawk all trump baloth. Just play it carefully, only overextend into a sweeper if you can keep a fetch ready to save half your creatures.
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I'm sure he does not overextend too much. I don't run firewalkers and it seems to be ok for me. Just be patient and wait for sword #2. How is the 3rd mirran crusader doing for you? I know it can die to a sweeper but if you have 3 copies, eventually you can get 1 to stick.
unfortunately, given the popularity of Mystic, Hawks and Swords, Valakut is now packing a lot of hate to combat this. Some player already play 1x Acidic Slime maindeck to blow up manland, quest and swords if needed. After sideboard, they might have:
*Tumble Magnet: Stall your most scary creature for 3 turns, so they can continue to ramp. Also take care of Act of Treason effect.
*Nature's Claim and/or more acidic slimes: Take out Swords or White Leyline (if they're ready to win)
*Obstinate Baloth: Obvious, stall the game
*More lightning bolt and/or sweepers.
So, Valakut is no longer an easy matchup for Boros. May be 50/50.
I don't understand how this was ever an easy matchup, or how it's even 50/50 now.
I've played numerous games where I have a god hand speedwise, I see no spot removal or sweepers, mow down any walls they may build... and then an early Khalni Garden Expedition + Primeval Titan wipes out my entire board and I'm dead in the water.
Perhaps its extremely bad luck time and again, but reckless overextension without any ramifications still nets me game losses because the deck doesn't seem fast enough to win prior to their ramp end-game.
Alright, I'm now 3-14 against Valakut. No, not a large sample size, but it's getting insane. How, exactly, does Boros beat Valakut? Their walls stall you, they ramp into colorless repeatable sweeper-esque damage from Valakut-Titan, they bring in extra sweepers + Tumble Magnet from the sideboard (and Obstinate Baloth or Wall of Tanglecord if you're really boned)...
This matchup is a nightmare, and I've tried everything.
One thing i have found, since Valakut wipes your board a lot, by the time you use Mark on the Primeval, its not a killshot, and they have blockers. Make sure you have SoFaF and an adventuring gear. I would fetch for Gear, with no creatures, just to steal their priemval and hit with 11/11 trample minimum. The sword also helps us because it provides increased damage, green evasion, and Discard. Making htem discard is a big deal.
Mark + AG + Primeval is awful(ly good). (and then, if you have the mana, and not the W yet, journey it. smile. laugh.) That's all there is to it. I like Firewalkers, just to keep bodies after a sweep & removal spells, and giving them either sword makes them pretty much go LOL to valakut.
Again, don't overextend, but be sure to get into the 10 range before they get a titan.
Swords, Swords, S-words. I board in really, marks, extra removal for valakut. That's it. If they're playing tumble magnets, i'd board in revoke existence, and pop that or kheart or errant wurmcoils.
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As my list currently stands, I have two open SB slots. I'd like those to address this MU. Currenly my options are:
2x Kor Firewalker
or:
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Mark of Mutiny
Considering both the Valakut matchup, and the metagame as a whole, which option would you guys choose?
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We are the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
The worst card you can keep in post sideboard is Goblin Guide.
I played against 2 valakut on gameday, and went 4-1 in games (2-0 match).
1 match I overwhelmed with landfallers before anything could be done.
2nd match I won 1 game on the back of a sworded crusader, and won another game on an amazing fetchland topdeck, allowing me to equip 2 swords + AG on a KOTH-land to swing for exact lethal.
The matchup IS hard, and there seems to be a couple routes you can go to combat it:
-Run slagstorm to sweep their tokens (hopefully) after they drop an Avenger
-Run MoM's in SB to steal their PeT
-Side in extra JtN/Crusader
-Run an extra sword in the SB
KFW doesn't seem relevant against Valakut, as their only red spells are bolt and a sweeper, and they run no red creatures. KFW may survive pyroclasm, but so will lynx/geopede with an open fetch.
Another weakness of Valakut is...Mill and early discard. Valakut depends heavily on Tutoring for valakut and mountains, so if you attack their library successfully you'll win.
You don't have turn 1 or 2 discard spells like black player do. But you got Sword of Body and Mind.
And don't be so nervous. Boros is a difficult matchup for Valakut too (before MBS I play Boros, and an opponent said he's bringing in a 11-card sideboard against Boros!) It really boils down to who got a good start.
As a valakut and aggro (though not boros) player here is my 2 cents.
Take out goblin guide in game 2/3, I'm not going to answer guide unless I'm overloaded with sweepers/bolts because it is only 2 damage in exchange for a free land most of the time.
Slow roll your fetches, if I see a geopede/lynx/adventuring gear I'm going to sweep if I know I can wipe out that kind of board with it.
Don't bring firewalker in, I will block it with a wall all day, I don't play enough red spells to care.
Sword+Hawk=win if the valakut deck doesn't have the answer in hand. (Either sword really)
Koth comes down too late to matter
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Type 2 UBControlBU UWDelverWU BWUSuperfriendsUWB
Type 2 in development WBUCounterless Solar FlareBWU
Type 2 Retired UBWControlBUW RBVampiresBR GRValakutGR GElves!G GBEldrazi GreenBG
I can't believe anyone is excited about this card. It is absolutely unplayable. I wouldn't even play her in LIMITED. Easily the worst walker printed since the green elf one. Absolutely terrible.
Some lists only run pyroclasm, and some are using slagstorm. If you slow roll the fetches, you can keep ur guys alive against a pyroclasm, and getting something equipped with a SoBaM is serious pressure, netting a 2/2 and wiping 10 cards from their library (if you are lucky enough to get fatties on the first connect, you will likely win).
Its really all about game 1. If they are not packing MB sweepers, it should be winnable which will put the pressure on them to win 2 and 3. If you lose game 1, it becomes very hard for you to win 2 and 3, just b/c a turn 3 titan or turn 4 avenger spells doom for you.
The worst card you can keep in post sideboard is Goblin Guide.
I played against 2 valakut on gameday, and went 4-1 in games (2-0 match).
1 match I overwhelmed with landfallers before anything could be done.
2nd match I won 1 game on the back of a sworded crusader, and won another game on an amazing fetchland topdeck, allowing me to equip 2 swords + AG on a KOTH-land to swing for exact lethal.
The matchup IS hard, and there seems to be a couple routes you can go to combat it:
-Run slagstorm to sweep their tokens (hopefully) after they drop an Avenger
-Run MoM's in SB to steal their PeT
-Side in extra JtN/Crusader
-Run an extra sword in the SB
KFW doesn't seem relevant against Valakut, as their only red spells are bolt and a sweeper, and they run no red creatures. KFW may survive pyroclasm, but so will lynx/geopede with an open fetch.
as has already been mentioned a firewalker with a sword beats face. and i'm guessing you'd sideboard them in for goblin guides which don't survive the sweep and are terrible against valakut
Here's the issue: post-sideboard. You're racing against a clock with Valakut, as once they get online, you're dead to rights. Post-SB, in comes sweepers and Obstinate Baloth. Now, turn 4 they're casting GSZ for 4, bringing in the Baloth, gaining 4 life and putting up a 4/4 wall in the process. Assume, best case, you can kill the bastard in next turn's attack phase. You've just been stalled for 4 damage and they gained 4 life. For our deck's purposes, it's like getting Time Walked twice. You're likely not going to get another chance.
Unlike Caw-Blade, where they're looking to stabilize and counter-punch, thus you're not necessarily racing them, once Valakut reaches its end-game, you're toast. Rietz's comments on Valakut -- that we have no meaningful interaction with their end-game are spot on, and further elaborating that point was Conley Woods's article today that described Valakut as a sort of mid-range combo deck. Difficulty for us is the mid-range part: we're fighting through a lot of legitimate obstacles to deal lethal, or chip them down into Swipe-a-Titan range.
So what's the verdict on Mirran Crusader in this matchup? The abilities are obviously relevant but i'm concerned that none of it matters if the card dies to bolt/clasm.
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We are the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
So. Valakut.
I've been playing Boros since last block constructed, enjoying it and disliking Valakut (so innocent then) for over a year now. Fast forward to post-MBS Standard and I find myself losing to Valakut on a wildly consistent basis on MTGO. I run a fairly standard list of Boros, with the only significant difference being an absence of Teetering Peaks and no Sword of Feast and Famine yet, as the latter is still very scarce online without the official set release yet.
I hate to think the matchup is that simple and capricious, but is that really it? Does the deck need a pair of Peaks to tutor up after swiping a Primeval Titan to bash in with 11 trample power? There has to be something more going on here, no? I find I don't overextend into sweepers, but that I fail to ring in enough damage prior to the Valakut player clearing my board via Titan or some combination of ramp spells (usually the Khalni enchantment). Often I find the ramp player gets to put impediments in the way (Walls, removal, that Baloth) that are better at shutting down my guys than the control decks right now.
Thoughts on how to tackle this still large part of the Standard environment?
Sideboard I've used of late:
3x Cunning Sparkmage
1x Basilisk Collar
2x Mark of Mutiny
3x Kor Firewalker
2x Crush // Divine Offering (depending on mood)
1x Koth of the Hammer
2x Arc Trail
1x Journey to Nowhere
Are you playing with new cards like oxid ridge or crusader?
I've been largely running into Battlements + Ramp versions. I'm finding that lists that run a slew of sweepers or lists that run a normal assortment still give me fits. By the time they stabilize, they're out of burn range and have the board locked down with colorless damage in the form of Valakut.
I've read varying opinions on the matchup, with some thinking it's definitely tilted to Boros and others thinking the opposite.
Don't wanna make this thread just about me, though.
My list is damn similar enough to Rietzl's list; I like the Elder as a one-of but he'd be first cut to add another Crusader or Hero, though I'm not sure which.
4x Steppe Lynx
4x Squadron Hawk
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Mirran Crusader
4x Goblin Guide
4x Plated Geopede
1x Spikeshot Elder
2x Hero of Oxid Ridge
1x Koth of the Hammer
Artifacts 4
2x Adventuring Gear
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Bonehoard
Removal 6
2x Arc Trail
2x Journey to Nowhere
2x Lightning Bolt
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Marsh Flats
3x Terramorphic Expanse
5x Plains
5x Mountain
Sideboarding generally...
-2 Arc Trail
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Spikeshot
-1 Bonehoard
+3 Kor Firewalker
+2 Mark of Mutiny
+1 JTN
Lynx, geopede, adventuring gear, and squadron hawk all trump baloth. Just play it carefully, only overextend into a sweeper if you can keep a fetch ready to save half your creatures.
Those who hesitate in the face of greatness have already lost.
I write for EoV. Feel free to check out my articles:
*Tumble Magnet: Stall your most scary creature for 3 turns, so they can continue to ramp. Also take care of Act of Treason effect.
*Nature's Claim and/or more acidic slimes: Take out Swords or White Leyline (if they're ready to win)
*Obstinate Baloth: Obvious, stall the game
*More lightning bolt and/or sweepers.
So, Valakut is no longer an easy matchup for Boros. May be 50/50.
I've played numerous games where I have a god hand speedwise, I see no spot removal or sweepers, mow down any walls they may build... and then an early Khalni Garden Expedition + Primeval Titan wipes out my entire board and I'm dead in the water.
Perhaps its extremely bad luck time and again, but reckless overextension without any ramifications still nets me game losses because the deck doesn't seem fast enough to win prior to their ramp end-game.
This matchup is a nightmare, and I've tried everything.
Mark of Mutiny
Sword + Squadron Hawk
Aggroing out for that turn 4 win on the play
Those who hesitate in the face of greatness have already lost.
I write for EoV. Feel free to check out my articles:
Again, don't overextend, but be sure to get into the 10 range before they get a titan.
Swords, Swords, S-words. I board in really, marks, extra removal for valakut. That's it. If they're playing tumble magnets, i'd board in revoke existence, and pop that or kheart or errant wurmcoils.
2x Kor Firewalker
or:
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Mark of Mutiny
Considering both the Valakut matchup, and the metagame as a whole, which option would you guys choose?
I played against 2 valakut on gameday, and went 4-1 in games (2-0 match).
1 match I overwhelmed with landfallers before anything could be done.
2nd match I won 1 game on the back of a sworded crusader, and won another game on an amazing fetchland topdeck, allowing me to equip 2 swords + AG on a KOTH-land to swing for exact lethal.
The matchup IS hard, and there seems to be a couple routes you can go to combat it:
-Run slagstorm to sweep their tokens (hopefully) after they drop an Avenger
-Run MoM's in SB to steal their PeT
-Side in extra JtN/Crusader
-Run an extra sword in the SB
KFW doesn't seem relevant against Valakut, as their only red spells are bolt and a sweeper, and they run no red creatures. KFW may survive pyroclasm, but so will lynx/geopede with an open fetch.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
You don't have turn 1 or 2 discard spells like black player do. But you got Sword of Body and Mind.
And don't be so nervous. Boros is a difficult matchup for Valakut too (before MBS I play Boros, and an opponent said he's bringing in a 11-card sideboard against Boros!) It really boils down to who got a good start.
Take out goblin guide in game 2/3, I'm not going to answer guide unless I'm overloaded with sweepers/bolts because it is only 2 damage in exchange for a free land most of the time.
Slow roll your fetches, if I see a geopede/lynx/adventuring gear I'm going to sweep if I know I can wipe out that kind of board with it.
Don't bring firewalker in, I will block it with a wall all day, I don't play enough red spells to care.
Sword+Hawk=win if the valakut deck doesn't have the answer in hand. (Either sword really)
Koth comes down too late to matter
UBControlBU
UWDelverWU
BWUSuperfriendsUWB
Type 2 in development
WBUCounterless Solar FlareBWU
Type 2 Retired
UBWControlBUW
RBVampiresBR
GRValakutGR
GElves!G
GBEldrazi GreenBG
Legacy
UWStonebladeWU
EDH
GWRhys the RedeemedWG
GWURafiq of the ManyUWG
GRWMayael the AnimaWRG
Some lists only run pyroclasm, and some are using slagstorm. If you slow roll the fetches, you can keep ur guys alive against a pyroclasm, and getting something equipped with a SoBaM is serious pressure, netting a 2/2 and wiping 10 cards from their library (if you are lucky enough to get fatties on the first connect, you will likely win).
Its really all about game 1. If they are not packing MB sweepers, it should be winnable which will put the pressure on them to win 2 and 3. If you lose game 1, it becomes very hard for you to win 2 and 3, just b/c a turn 3 titan or turn 4 avenger spells doom for you.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
as has already been mentioned a firewalker with a sword beats face. and i'm guessing you'd sideboard them in for goblin guides which don't survive the sweep and are terrible against valakut
Unlike Caw-Blade, where they're looking to stabilize and counter-punch, thus you're not necessarily racing them, once Valakut reaches its end-game, you're toast. Rietz's comments on Valakut -- that we have no meaningful interaction with their end-game are spot on, and further elaborating that point was Conley Woods's article today that described Valakut as a sort of mid-range combo deck. Difficulty for us is the mid-range part: we're fighting through a lot of legitimate obstacles to deal lethal, or chip them down into Swipe-a-Titan range.