Woo!
So, I wasn't expecting to see them again until during (or post-) Ravnica.
What kind of other surprises might they have in store for us?
If the Simic guild makes it back mostly intact, Proliferate would be a very welcome addition to their mechanics (although I doubt that an invasion into Ravnica would involve the oil).
The way I see it happening, the Praetors intend to provoke Karn the Destroyer into returning to New Phyrexia to attack it viciously, getting rid of all the weak Phyrexians and allowing only the strong to survive. Then they'll either kill him off or get him to leave and allow the process to continue, creating an endless cycle of Phyrexian improvement until Karn outlives his usefulness and they find some other being worthy of being called the Destroyer.
Attacking Ravnica might provoke Karn but I don't see much of a goal in taking it over or harvesting it for parts. There's very little technology and metal on Ravnica, so in the eyes of the Phyrexians it would require too much effort to take over with far too little gained.
But I suspect I'm missing something. Perhaps there are a few beings on Ravnica that would make for pseudo-Praetors in their own right.
The only speculation I'll jump on here is that the Simic guild may benefit from including Proliferate on its cards. I would agree that it works well with their Graft ability in Dissension.
However, I would be surprised if as a part of recapturing the flavor and awesomeness that was Ravnica they just borrow a mechanic from 2010.
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Agreed. I remember it being in 7th 8th and 9th editions. Seeing it come back in M13 isn't surprising. Just a 6 mana 5/4.
7th, 8th, and 9th editions were before the NWO, weren't they?
More importantly they were before Magic 2010, which dramatically changed the way core sets were handled. Its inclusion here shouldn't be ignored.
You might not like the Phyrexians, and they certainly won't be at the forefront of Ravnica's storyline, but they may very well factor into it, making a minor appearance or otherwise affecting things in interesting ways - and that's a good thing.
7th, 8th, and 9th editions were before the NWO, weren't they?
This core set is intended to be more nostalgia-based than M12 and the rest and this is just another manifestation of that.
[Phyrexians] certainly won't be at the forefront of Ravnica's storyline, but they may very well factor into it, making a minor appearance or otherwise affecting things in interesting ways - and that's a good thing.
Phyrexians are known for their inability to planeswalk; there is nothing to base this on. It's pure speculation and seemingly wishful thinking. Further, it's far too soon for this to have happened since this is only the second 'repeat' block and their delay time between feedback is 2 years.
All of their houses are made out of clay, stonework, or concrete? I've always felt that Ravnica was very Roman-Era themed.
If anything, I think Nicky B (Bolas) is using information he learned from the Phyrexians on Mirrodin in order to find ways he can manipulate/enslave/take over Ravnica's populace or plane.
I seems strange to me that a plane consisting of nothing but city would be lacking in technology or resources like metal. Can you elaborate?
well, the city-plane is ruled by ten guilds.
Golgari focus on magical aspects of life and death.
Simic focus on evolutionary aspects of designing and experimenting with and innovating in the field of biology.
Dimir are secretive, that's kinda their only thing.
Orzhov are religiously greedy.
Izzet are psychotic and ruled by the whims of a fickle dragon.
Boros are obsessed with crime and punishment and law and order through brutality.
Rakdos are practitioners of orgasmic murder sprees and love nothing more than carnage.
Gruul are wild. sometimes they respect nature but mostly they don't care.
Azorius pursue magical mysteries and logical puzzles and white blue ****. I might care about them more but I just don't, so although they could have a strong tie to technology I don't see it.
Selesnya preserve what little is left of the "pure" natural wild, but they are more like bonsai growers and less like actual conservationists, because while it's nice to preserve the outdoors, I find it hypocritical to do so by creating a sort of zoo area where trees are allowed to grow but only within that confined area.
I don't see any of these guilds having a strong tie to technological innovation, industry, an arms race, firearms, electricity generation, steam, coal, or magitech-powered energy generation, or similar technologies. Granted, any of their philosophical inclinations could readily accept any kind of disruptive technology, but then it's easy for us to accept that because we live in a world where we know that technology empowers everyone.
The Phyrexians, for me, embody the concept of using technology to empower yourself without a care for its drawbacks. That's a really awesome premise to any story, especially as the human race barrels toward the singularity and the idea becomes more and more relevant to us all.
The Ravnicans, however, embody the idea of "let's give every two-color combination in Magic its own guild." Great, you did that, now what?
I would like to see an actual storyline accompany the sets and work its way through the mechanics. It can be done (see: Braid) but it's not easy, and it always has to take a back seat to the gameplay.
So yeah, I see a Phyrexian in a core set post Magic 2010, I get excited. And for a good reason.
...
If anything, I think Nicky B (Bolas) is using information he learned from the Phyrexians on Mirrodin in order to find ways he can manipulate/enslave/take over Ravnica's populace or plane.
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I'm normally a very open-minded person when it comes to speculation, but I'm going to have to disagree with this one. I highly doubt this is a subtle hint that Phyrexians are returning. Just as I don't think Rewind is a hint towards the time-mending mages from Urza block returning. As always, I very well might be in the wrong. I suppose only time will tell.
I don't see any of these guilds having a strong tie to technological innovation, industry, an arms race, firearms, electricity generation, steam, coal, or magitech-powered energy generation, or similar technologies. Granted, any of their philosophical inclinations could readily accept any kind of disruptive technology, but then it's easy for us to accept that because we live in a world where we know that technology empowers everyone.
That is exactlywhat theIzzetare. While they aren't specifically affiliated with artifacts, they are often using various odd technological tools. They are supposed to be mad scientists, not slaves to a dragon.
I don't see any of these guilds having a strong tie to technological innovation, industry, an arms race, firearms, electricity generation, steam, coal, or magitech-powered energy generation, or similar technologies. Granted, any of their philosophical inclinations could readily accept any kind of disruptive technology, but then it's easy for us to accept that because we live in a world where we know that technology empowers everyone.
If I understand your argument correctly, you're suggesting that, because technology can be adapted to any purpose, any guild (or even none at all) could have been the stewards of technological developments on Ravnica? Because I don't think you're sufficiently delineating between guild identity and color-pair identity.
First, the cards indicate pretty strongly that the Izzet and the Simic are the guilds of scientific progress:
-The flavor text on Assault Zeppelid reveals that the Simic develop and sell biological weapons to fund their research.
-Coalhauler Swine demonstrates the use of coal in Ravnican industry (no guild watermark, but this is clearly not a Rakdos or Gruul beast. Being red lends it heavily toward Izzet allegiance.)
-Compulsive Research portrays an Izzet mage studying what the flavor text suggests is an alchemical recipe, a "Magic-appropriate" version of chemistry.
-Copy Enchantment makes reference to the Simic's experimental method they use in developing their biological products.
-Research // Development is the quintessential embodiment of technological progress, united here to represent the adaptability of Simic biological design and Izzet production potency.
-Evolution Vat is technology used to improve biology. This is basically the inverse of Phyrexian tech, in that it's a creature inside a machine instead of a machine inside of a creature.
-Experiment Kraj is literally the opposite of a New Phyrexian: rather than breaking down and infecting others to make them more like itself, it strengthens others to incorporate their diversity into itself.
-Flow of Ideas: the Izzet invent plumbing and use it to control basically all water on the plane.
-Greater Forgeling gives a glimpse of the furnaces the Izzet use to power the plane's various constructed systems.
-Hypervolt Grasp shows an Izzet mage's electricity-controlling powers.
-Lest you think the Izzet are all play and no work, remember the text of Seismic Spike, which points out that they basically stopped natural disasters from occurring.
-Similarly, the Simic Signet flavor text reinforces the notion of the Simic as the premier brand-name for biological goods.
-Speaking of goods, Smash makes clear that Ravnica contains factories... ignoring the issue of guildless or only tenuously affiliated factories, factories only make sense if you have a product. The Izzet and Simic have products. (The Azorius, Gruul, Selesnya, and Golgari don't have products, as such. The Boros don't really have products but I could see them manufacturing anyway, since they need to equip all their recruits. Dimir products are too intangible for factories, and the Orzhov trade in others' products. Rakdos are a service-industry guild.)
The preceding observations are limited to what's portrayed on the cards themselves, but I believe they clearly establish that technology is very much the essence of the Izzet. However, as I said before, the Izzet are actually not synonymous with :symur:. As Mark Rosewater wrote in his articles examining the color pairs, each guild embodies its color pair, but it is not the only, exclusive interpretation of that color pair possible.
So while I'd agree that no one color pair has a monopoly on the concept of technology, it's a mistake to write off the Izzet just because you don't think they embody a fundamental human conflict.
The Phyrexians, for me, embody the concept of using technology to empower yourself without a care for its drawbacks. That's a really awesome premise to any story, especially as the human race barrels toward the singularity and the idea becomes more and more relevant to us all.
The Ravnicans, however, embody the idea of "let's give every two-color combination in Magic its own guild." Great, you did that, now what?
Whatever the merits or flaws of Singularity-worship (not gonna get into it here, necessarily, but I used to a big fan of the Incipient Technological Singularity, but actually I'd argue we're already in a post-Singularity society), I agree that the Phyrexians are an evocative force. For me, though, they say more about the dangers of elevating ideology and principle over the needs of the individual situation—I have a hard time drawing parallels between what is essentially the story of a disease and any narrative with deliberate, voluntary actors.
About Ravnica again, though... don't confuse the medium for the message. The conflict in Ravnica was the question of whether the guild system could weather the time of conflict brought on by the increasing spirit activity due to the rifts originating on Dominaria. I won't try to convince you that this is a good story—the story wanted the breaking of the Guildpact to really be the climax of the story, and the dissolution of the guilds altogether as the resolution, but Ravnica == Guilds in players' minds, so they stay for the good of the game.
I would like to see an actual storyline accompany the sets and work its way through the mechanics. It can be done (see: Braid) but it's not easy, and it always has to take a back seat to the gameplay.
So yeah, I see a Phyrexian in a core set post Magic 2010, I get excited. And for a good reason.
That would be very cool.
...don't hold your breath. The kind of story you're looking for (where the experience of playing echoes the process of the narrative) isn't really a great fit for a collectible card game. Sure, they have a level of control over the relative strength of certain strategies in limited and constructed, but look at Avacyn Restored: the humans and angels are winning, they pushed for angels and humans to be powerful, but the narrative of gameplay has the soulbonders in green and blue fighting and overcoming angels and their allies in limited, and in constructed, giants and ghosts and living equipment and insect aberrations are running rampant.
The Rath Cycle demonstrated why traditional narratives don't work in CCG form. Wizards has been looking for alternative narratives to employ in Magic, and I think they've been largely successful.
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Didn't one of the higher-ups in R&D say that they wanted to be very, very careful about printing too many Proliferate effects because it wouldn't take very many good ones being printed before they became utterly degenerate? We're lucky that Scars block brought us Phybrid mana, Batterskull, and three new Swords of Something Something or we'd be looking back on Proliferate with the same kind of anxiety as Cascade or Dredge.
WOTC didn't bring back the Phyrexians for a one-shot last deal. They'll be back, to wrap up what happens to Mirrodin.
RTR on the other hand, whether it will tie into the Eldrazi/phyrexians or not remains to be seen. I seriously doubt it. To me, RTR is now because it's the 20th anniversary next year, and the fan favorite.
When they do get back to the Eldrazi/phyrexians, I think it'll be more obvious. Dare I say a plane-less set? That is, a set that takes place on a few planes at once, thus the name of the set would be something non-plane specific.
Didn't one of the higher-ups in R&D say that they wanted to be very, very careful about printing too many Proliferate effects because it wouldn't take very many good ones being printed before they became utterly degenerate? We're lucky that Scars block brought us Phybrid mana, Batterskull, and three new Swords of Something Something or we'd be looking back on Proliferate with the same kind of anxiety as Cascade or Dredge.
Is proliferate really that dangerous of a mechanic? I mean, I love it, but it's rather slow.
At any rate, I don't think this card means anything in grand scheme of things, but I'm glad that Phyrexia is still on WotC's mind. Even though it's only been a year, I'm very anxiously awaiting a return to Mirrodin. Yes. MIRRODIN.
Is proliferate really that dangerous of a mechanic? I mean, I love it, but it's rather slow.
At any rate, I don't think this card means anything in grand scheme of things, but I'm glad that Phyrexia is still on WotC's mind. Even though it's only been a year, I'm very anxiously awaiting a return to Mirrodin. Yes. MIRRODIN.
Yeah, Mirrodin was my favorite plane, but it's gone now. New Phyrexia is all that remains.
Mirrodin and New Phyrexia are not one in the same. Yes, they are both the same plane, but they are radically different. Wizards agrees with this as there are New Phyrexia plane cards and Mirrodin plane cards in Planechase 2. Quicksilver Sea and Furnace Layer are evidence of this.
Is proliferate really that dangerous of a mechanic? I mean, I love it, but it's rather slow.
Its danger comes mainly from how many things it interacts with. Things like Planeswalkers. That's why every repeatable Proliferate effect costs CMC 4 or requires a T, and even non-repeatable proliferates tend to be attached to things that cost 4. But just imagine how rough things would be if they pushed the envelope just a little bit and printed a spell that was just CMC 1 with a "you lose 2 life" additional cost and did nothing but cantrip and proliferate. It doesn't take too many of those to break some cards wide open.
Proliferate has the potential to be ridiculously strong with planeswalkers. There's a reason that steady progress cost 2U for a cantrip and proliferation. Why? Because at 2 mana, it would be skirting the edge. At 1 mana, oh hello busted card. And it's not just with planeswalkers either, -1/-1 counters, +1/+1 counters, and any number of cards that use counters have the potential to be ridiculous with proliferate.
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Its danger comes mainly from how many things it interacts with. Things like Planeswalkers. That's why every repeatable Proliferate effect costs CMC 4 or requires a T, and even non-repeatable proliferates tend to be attached to things that cost 4. But just imagine how rough things would be if they pushed the envelope just a little bit and printed a spell that was just CMC 1 with a "you lose 2 life" additional cost and did nothing but cantrip and proliferate. It doesn't take too many of those to break some cards wide open.
Proliferate has the potential to be ridiculously strong with planeswalkers. There's a reason that steady progress cost 2U for a cantrip and proliferation. Why? Because at 2 mana, it would be skirting the edge. At 1 mana, oh hello busted card. And it's not just with planeswalkers either, -1/-1 counters, +1/+1 counters, and any number of cards that use counters have the potential to be ridiculous with proliferate.
Agreed. Though from my experience, even for all it does, proliferate is at a decent power level, generally costing 2-3 CMC, and generally having to be attached to an affect/creature. I wouldn't assume that its power would be anything to fear. Well, maybe contagion engine went a little too far...
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Woo!
So, I wasn't expecting to see them again until during (or post-) Ravnica.
What kind of other surprises might they have in store for us?
If the Simic guild makes it back mostly intact, Proliferate would be a very welcome addition to their mechanics (although I doubt that an invasion into Ravnica would involve the oil).
The way I see it happening, the Praetors intend to provoke Karn the Destroyer into returning to New Phyrexia to attack it viciously, getting rid of all the weak Phyrexians and allowing only the strong to survive. Then they'll either kill him off or get him to leave and allow the process to continue, creating an endless cycle of Phyrexian improvement until Karn outlives his usefulness and they find some other being worthy of being called the Destroyer.
Attacking Ravnica might provoke Karn but I don't see much of a goal in taking it over or harvesting it for parts. There's very little technology and metal on Ravnica, so in the eyes of the Phyrexians it would require too much effort to take over with far too little gained.
But I suspect I'm missing something. Perhaps there are a few beings on Ravnica that would make for pseudo-Praetors in their own right.
However, I would be surprised if as a part of recapturing the flavor and awesomeness that was Ravnica they just borrow a mechanic from 2010.
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Agreed. I remember it being in 7th 8th and 9th editions. Seeing it come back in M13 isn't surprising. Just a 6 mana 5/4.
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7th, 8th, and 9th editions were before the NWO, weren't they?
More importantly they were before Magic 2010, which dramatically changed the way core sets were handled. Its inclusion here shouldn't be ignored.
You might not like the Phyrexians, and they certainly won't be at the forefront of Ravnica's storyline, but they may very well factor into it, making a minor appearance or otherwise affecting things in interesting ways - and that's a good thing.
Just no.
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If anything, I think Nicky B (Bolas) is using information he learned from the Phyrexians on Mirrodin in order to find ways he can manipulate/enslave/take over Ravnica's populace or plane.
well, the city-plane is ruled by ten guilds.
Golgari focus on magical aspects of life and death.
Simic focus on evolutionary aspects of designing and experimenting with and innovating in the field of biology.
Dimir are secretive, that's kinda their only thing.
Orzhov are religiously greedy.
Izzet are psychotic and ruled by the whims of a fickle dragon.
Boros are obsessed with crime and punishment and law and order through brutality.
Rakdos are practitioners of orgasmic murder sprees and love nothing more than carnage.
Gruul are wild. sometimes they respect nature but mostly they don't care.
Azorius pursue magical mysteries and logical puzzles and white blue ****. I might care about them more but I just don't, so although they could have a strong tie to technology I don't see it.
Selesnya preserve what little is left of the "pure" natural wild, but they are more like bonsai growers and less like actual conservationists, because while it's nice to preserve the outdoors, I find it hypocritical to do so by creating a sort of zoo area where trees are allowed to grow but only within that confined area.
I don't see any of these guilds having a strong tie to technological innovation, industry, an arms race, firearms, electricity generation, steam, coal, or magitech-powered energy generation, or similar technologies. Granted, any of their philosophical inclinations could readily accept any kind of disruptive technology, but then it's easy for us to accept that because we live in a world where we know that technology empowers everyone.
The Phyrexians, for me, embody the concept of using technology to empower yourself without a care for its drawbacks. That's a really awesome premise to any story, especially as the human race barrels toward the singularity and the idea becomes more and more relevant to us all.
The Ravnicans, however, embody the idea of "let's give every two-color combination in Magic its own guild." Great, you did that, now what?
I would like to see an actual storyline accompany the sets and work its way through the mechanics. It can be done (see: Braid) but it's not easy, and it always has to take a back seat to the gameplay.
So yeah, I see a Phyrexian in a core set post Magic 2010, I get excited. And for a good reason.
That would be very cool.
but one thing is certainly true-
Graft + Proliferate = loads of fun.
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That is exactly what the Izzet are. While they aren't specifically affiliated with artifacts, they are often using various odd technological tools. They are supposed to be mad scientists, not slaves to a dragon.
If I understand your argument correctly, you're suggesting that, because technology can be adapted to any purpose, any guild (or even none at all) could have been the stewards of technological developments on Ravnica? Because I don't think you're sufficiently delineating between guild identity and color-pair identity.
First, the cards indicate pretty strongly that the Izzet and the Simic are the guilds of scientific progress:
-The flavor text on Assault Zeppelid reveals that the Simic develop and sell biological weapons to fund their research.
-Coalhauler Swine demonstrates the use of coal in Ravnican industry (no guild watermark, but this is clearly not a Rakdos or Gruul beast. Being red lends it heavily toward Izzet allegiance.)
-Compulsive Research portrays an Izzet mage studying what the flavor text suggests is an alchemical recipe, a "Magic-appropriate" version of chemistry.
-Copy Enchantment makes reference to the Simic's experimental method they use in developing their biological products.
-Research // Development is the quintessential embodiment of technological progress, united here to represent the adaptability of Simic biological design and Izzet production potency.
-Evolution Vat is technology used to improve biology. This is basically the inverse of Phyrexian tech, in that it's a creature inside a machine instead of a machine inside of a creature.
-Experiment Kraj is literally the opposite of a New Phyrexian: rather than breaking down and infecting others to make them more like itself, it strengthens others to incorporate their diversity into itself.
-Flow of Ideas: the Izzet invent plumbing and use it to control basically all water on the plane.
-Greater Forgeling gives a glimpse of the furnaces the Izzet use to power the plane's various constructed systems.
-Hypervolt Grasp shows an Izzet mage's electricity-controlling powers.
-Lest you think the Izzet are all play and no work, remember the text of Seismic Spike, which points out that they basically stopped natural disasters from occurring.
-Similarly, the Simic Signet flavor text reinforces the notion of the Simic as the premier brand-name for biological goods.
-Speaking of goods, Smash makes clear that Ravnica contains factories... ignoring the issue of guildless or only tenuously affiliated factories, factories only make sense if you have a product. The Izzet and Simic have products. (The Azorius, Gruul, Selesnya, and Golgari don't have products, as such. The Boros don't really have products but I could see them manufacturing anyway, since they need to equip all their recruits. Dimir products are too intangible for factories, and the Orzhov trade in others' products. Rakdos are a service-industry guild.)
The preceding observations are limited to what's portrayed on the cards themselves, but I believe they clearly establish that technology is very much the essence of the Izzet. However, as I said before, the Izzet are actually not synonymous with :symur:. As Mark Rosewater wrote in his articles examining the color pairs, each guild embodies its color pair, but it is not the only, exclusive interpretation of that color pair possible.
So while I'd agree that no one color pair has a monopoly on the concept of technology, it's a mistake to write off the Izzet just because you don't think they embody a fundamental human conflict.
Whatever the merits or flaws of Singularity-worship (not gonna get into it here, necessarily, but I used to a big fan of the Incipient Technological Singularity, but actually I'd argue we're already in a post-Singularity society), I agree that the Phyrexians are an evocative force. For me, though, they say more about the dangers of elevating ideology and principle over the needs of the individual situation—I have a hard time drawing parallels between what is essentially the story of a disease and any narrative with deliberate, voluntary actors.
About Ravnica again, though... don't confuse the medium for the message. The conflict in Ravnica was the question of whether the guild system could weather the time of conflict brought on by the increasing spirit activity due to the rifts originating on Dominaria. I won't try to convince you that this is a good story—the story wanted the breaking of the Guildpact to really be the climax of the story, and the dissolution of the guilds altogether as the resolution, but Ravnica == Guilds in players' minds, so they stay for the good of the game.
...don't hold your breath. The kind of story you're looking for (where the experience of playing echoes the process of the narrative) isn't really a great fit for a collectible card game. Sure, they have a level of control over the relative strength of certain strategies in limited and constructed, but look at Avacyn Restored: the humans and angels are winning, they pushed for angels and humans to be powerful, but the narrative of gameplay has the soulbonders in green and blue fighting and overcoming angels and their allies in limited, and in constructed, giants and ghosts and living equipment and insect aberrations are running rampant.
The Rath Cycle demonstrated why traditional narratives don't work in CCG form. Wizards has been looking for alternative narratives to employ in Magic, and I think they've been largely successful.
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RTR on the other hand, whether it will tie into the Eldrazi/phyrexians or not remains to be seen. I seriously doubt it. To me, RTR is now because it's the 20th anniversary next year, and the fan favorite.
When they do get back to the Eldrazi/phyrexians, I think it'll be more obvious. Dare I say a plane-less set? That is, a set that takes place on a few planes at once, thus the name of the set would be something non-plane specific.
Is proliferate really that dangerous of a mechanic? I mean, I love it, but it's rather slow.
At any rate, I don't think this card means anything in grand scheme of things, but I'm glad that Phyrexia is still on WotC's mind. Even though it's only been a year, I'm very anxiously awaiting a return to Mirrodin. Yes. MIRRODIN.
Perhaps you meant Infect... And I rather see an Infect-y Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, and there are a few ways to accomplish this.
Yeah, Mirrodin was my favorite plane, but it's gone now. New Phyrexia is all that remains.
Mirrodin and New Phyrexia are not one in the same. Yes, they are both the same plane, but they are radically different. Wizards agrees with this as there are New Phyrexia plane cards and Mirrodin plane cards in Planechase 2. Quicksilver Sea and Furnace Layer are evidence of this.
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Will be kept until 12/31/2013 to prove if Right or Wrong.Proven right 1/27/2013Its danger comes mainly from how many things it interacts with. Things like Planeswalkers. That's why every repeatable Proliferate effect costs CMC 4 or requires a T, and even non-repeatable proliferates tend to be attached to things that cost 4. But just imagine how rough things would be if they pushed the envelope just a little bit and printed a spell that was just CMC 1 with a "you lose 2 life" additional cost and did nothing but cantrip and proliferate. It doesn't take too many of those to break some cards wide open.
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Agreed. Though from my experience, even for all it does, proliferate is at a decent power level, generally costing 2-3 CMC, and generally having to be attached to an affect/creature. I wouldn't assume that its power would be anything to fear. Well, maybe contagion engine went a little too far...