MTG Salvation

Quote from Unskilled Ninja

Yet there are more decks playing Primeval Titan than any other ramp spell in the format.

Creatures are generally easier to abuse than spells. There are tons of ways to flicker, copy, or reanimate creatures, while the ways to copy or reuse spells tend to be more limited by both color and card pool.

Titan does something no other spell does, which is rare. (There is no spell that fetches ANY two lands) Creatures have to be easier to abuse or people would never play them. That is why creatures have had a massive power creep and spells a massive power seep. (Titans and sphinx are the best examples.)

Just because it CAN be killed doesnt mean much the same can be said of tooth and nail for kiki, and hundreds of other wins. The card really needs to stay on the list as it would 1) Go in every deck 2) Be degenerate in any blue deck (time magic should be in about every blue deck just like top and sol ring). It just isn't a fun card and ruins games using the "Oh it can be killed" argument is pointless, so can tarmogoyf, and delver, and kiki, and iona, and every other permanent in existence that doesn't make any kind of argument cards can ONLY be discussed if they go unanswered otherwise call cards are just mana symbols that run into NOPE!

Quote from Glimflicker

Note that it is a lot easier (and socially acceptable) to deal with a Sol Ring than lands spewed out from a Fastbond. Also, Sol Ring is one card, whereas Fastbond requires multiple lands. I'd much rather keep a one land hand with Sol Ring and Cultivate or Kodama's Reach.

Let's also be honest, the format itself is slooooooooowwww. Restricting fast mana slows down the format, and reinforces certain colors like green who generate fast mana as a rule of thumb. Being able to speed up the format for all colors isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially for heavy cost generals versus some other generals that are less cost prohibitive but still have a grand advantage over others.

Quote from Waiting in the Weeds

It's also funny how Fastbond is banned, but seems only slightly better than Sol Ring. You would have to have 4 lands + Fast bond in your opening hand to get 3 mana turn 1. With only 2 other cards available. Yes it's colored mana, and yes it can be more.. but it seems pretty darn close to sol ring. I mean heck - mana crypt gives you 2 mana for 0! Metalworker is also banned for fast mana, but he costs 3, and takes a turn to become active. And you'd have to have a lot of artifacts for him to go off.

It feels like everyone just likes sol ring too much to ban it. Which is problematic in my opinion.

Note that it is a lot easier (and socially acceptable) to deal with a Sol Ring than lands spewed out from a Fastbond. Also, Sol Ring is one card, whereas Fastbond requires multiple lands. I'd much rather keep a one land hand with Sol Ring and Cultivate or Kodama's Reach.

Quote from Waiting in the Weeds

It's also funny how Fastbond is banned, but seems only slightly better than Sol Ring. You would have to have 4 lands + Fast bond in your opening hand to get 3 mana turn 1. With only 2 other cards available. Yes it's colored mana, and yes it can be more.. but it seems pretty darn close to sol ring. I mean heck - mana crypt gives you 2 mana for 0! Metalworker is also banned for fast mana, but he costs 3, and takes a turn to become active. And you'd have to have a lot of artifacts for him to go off.

It feels like everyone just likes sol ring too much to ban it. Which is problematic in my opinion.

Fastbond + any d7.
+ Ad Nauseam
+ Any draw spell, really
+ Crucible of Worlds


I think these are the four best reasons why Fastbond is years ahead of sol ring.

Quote from Kid Icarus

I don't see how "everyone can use it" and "it was in the precons" are reasons to keep Sol Ring around. Sure everyone can use it, but not everyone gets to be the lucky person who draws it in their opening hand and gets out to a huge lead over the rest of the table. And who cares if it was in the precon? Stoneforge Mystic was printed in one of the event decks and then was promptly banned.

I understand that Kiki-Jiki is a powerful card and that there are several insta-win two card combos involving him. My point is that these or any other combos are much less devestating when the fast mana is toned down. Primeval Titan is a lot scarier when it comes out on turn 3 or 4 instead of turn 5 or 6.

It's also funny how Fastbond is banned, but seems only slightly better than Sol Ring. You would have to have 4 lands + Fast bond in your opening hand to get 3 mana turn 1. With only 2 other cards available. Yes it's colored mana, and yes it can be more.. but it seems pretty darn close to sol ring. I mean heck - mana crypt gives you 2 mana for 0! Metalworker is also banned for fast mana, but he costs 3, and takes a turn to become active. And you'd have to have a lot of artifacts for him to go off.

It feels like everyone just likes sol ring too much to ban it. Which is problematic in my opinion.

I don't see how "everyone can use it" and "it was in the precons" are reasons to keep Sol Ring around. Sure everyone can use it, but not everyone gets to be the lucky person who draws it in their opening hand and gets out to a huge lead over the rest of the table. And who cares if it was in the precon? Stoneforge Mystic was printed in one of the event decks and then was promptly banned.

I understand that Kiki-Jiki is a powerful card and that there are several insta-win two card combos involving him. My point is that these or any other combos are much less devestating when the fast mana is toned down. Primeval Titan is a lot scarier when it comes out on turn 3 or 4 instead of turn 5 or 6.

Quote from TigerDriver91

EDH is awesome partly because the card pool is humongous. And I really sincerely can't understand people's frustration with Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. They printed Sol Ring in the Commander precon's for Jah's sake!! I don't know how many times I've seen a player's first turn be Land, Sol Ring, Sensei Top, spin the top, and then they get nowhere close to winning the game. It happens all the time. That puts a target on one's head. And my Ingot Chewer loves turn 1 Sol Ring.


Oh, and Kiki-Jiki is just fine. Nowhere in the ballpark of banworthy.

Sol ring itself is powerful and swingy but fine. Crypt is no where close to the same. Crypt is straight up the most powerful mana source in the format. In a deck with nothing but sol ring/top/crypt I have to play trinket mage because crypt is that good. EDIT: an example T1 Island ring - Ring dies to removal barring force. T1 Island crypt counter the crypt removal T2 something degenerate (infinite mana or super ramp.)

Crypt is something that in and of itself make unfun gamestates by virtue of existing. The unfortunate nature is that starting on turn 3 is just too good and ruins the game for the rest of the table even if you are playing "fairly" for example with explosive vegitation (or one of the 6 "go get 2 lands) cards you can be playing prime time/sphinx/7 mana bomb which is just too good for turn 3.

Its arguably better than the moxen and defiantly better than sol ring. Ring is fine but can we ban crypt? It is the very definition of "Makes too much mana too early"

Quote from Kid Icarus

The card pool for EDH is too large... I mean, why are we voting on Kiki-Jiki when Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are still legal?

EDH is awesome partly because the card pool is humongous. And I really sincerely can't understand people's frustration with Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. They printed Sol Ring in the Commander precon's for Jah's sake!! I don't know how many times I've seen a player's first turn be Land, Sol Ring, Sensei Top, spin the top, and then they get nowhere close to winning the game. It happens all the time. That puts a target on one's head. And my Ingot Chewer loves turn 1 Sol Ring.


Oh, and Kiki-Jiki is just fine. Nowhere in the ballpark of banworthy.

Quote from Kid Icarus

I mean, why are we voting on Kiki-Jiki when Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are still legal?

Because Kiki was mentioned by Sheldon as something they were looking at. Did you read any of the thread?

Sol ring is fine, everyone can have it and 2 extra mana for a few turns does not win the game.

Kiki makes you either not play great cards, or play them not-to-win. Ugh

The card pool for EDH is too large. Banning every strong card doesn't solve anything since there will always be some number of cards with a high power level. The rules committee should focus on cards that are basically 1-card combos like Griselbrand and fast mana. I mean, why are we voting on Kiki-Jiki when Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are still legal?

It appears the players think banning Kiki is insane. We should move on to something else probably. Possible options

Panoptic Mirror
Power artifact
Mana crypt

I would really like to see a poll on crypt. Sol ring is one thing but crypt is far more crazy as its on the level of the original moxen or better. Power artifact is one of those "This is only a combo card" and Mirror is one of those cards with real uses besides "Timewalk you."

Quote from Wildfire393

It's talk like this that I just plain don't understand. Sure, your general costs no colorless mana (the first time you cast him). Does every spell in your entire deck have only colored mana symbols? (If so, you probably have a bigger problem).
T1 Ring means t2 Ranger's Path, Skyshroud Claim, Explosive Vegetation, or Hunting Wilds, which probably puts you on 4 of your colors, letting you pretty easily drop a turn 3 General.
T1 Crypt means t1 Cultivate or Kodama's Reach, which also leads pretty easily to a t4 general. It can also mean t1 Rhystic Study, which is back-breakingly powerful.
You can also run signets, which let you filter some of the colorless mana into colored.

Any deck that claims that they don't want Sol Ring/Mana Crypt needs to take a quick look over the spells in their deck. I would bet dollars to donuts that any list worth its mustard runs at least a dozen cards that cost 2C, 3C, and/or 2CC, which Ring/Crypt enable up to two turns early.

Fair enough, I don't have experience with 5C.

Quote from Undone

Sol ring, Crypt and Vault are broken. The tutors are not anywhere close to broken (especially the topdeck tutors as they are -1 card). Crypt is probably the biggest offender as its essentially a double timewalk on turn 1.

Uh, no, it's not. I'll take the two lands, two cards, and two opportunities to play things with my lands over Crypt.

Quote from Wildfire393

Honestly, the tutors are arguably a bigger problem than the Sol Rings (also Mana Vault is nowhere near as good as Crypt and Ring).
The tutors make 2-card combos consistent and reliable.
The tutors make 1-card combos ludicrously consistent and reliable. Want to know why Hermit Druid has a consistent turn 3-4 win? Because it has a dozen ways to tutor the Druid for 1-2 mana, so you just need to draw any one of these in your first 9 cards to get him into play.
The tutors break the singleton nature of the format by effectively allowing you to have multiple copies of all of your best cards. And on top of that, they're not just extra copies of the single best card in your deck, but they are also toolboxes, making them extra copies of the best card in your deck for any given situation.

I don't support the tutors being banned, but I can see how someone would consider them to be problematic.

There are what, 3-4 different 1 card combos in the format (TnN, oath, Druid) of which most require you to build around TnN being the only exception. There are over 30 playable tutors banning them all would be pointless. The only one debatably too strong is intuition. Intuition debatably because it is demonic tutor but dumps stuff in the yard too.

When the cards you can tutor for are either 1) Reasonable or 2) Expensive you are fine the problem is actually cards that either cost too little mana or make too much (Druid/vault)

The problem is too much fast mana. The 1 sol ring is fine as it consumes the first colored mana and puts you at turn 4 if it doesnt die. crypt starts you at turn 3 and takes you to turn 4. Vault makes it turn 5 or 6 on turn 2 or 3 which is far too much. If you remove the fast mana combo decks get far more reasonable than banning cheep tutors.