I seem to be having the biggest issues with the rg aggro variants and to a lesser degree blitz decks, just about anything else isn't too bad. Out side of junk aristocrats and rg aggro/blitz I feel real good. Anyone else have this feeling? It just seems like their speed and threats match up to us favorably, since they never go too big, we generally need to buold a bigger beast every game
So the new naya mid range / aggro list that did well in the latest open is a tough match, lost in 3 to double huntmasters, which is brutal. However it isn't unbeatable. Changed the board, added in 2 Soul Ransom, going to test this in matchups where we need control magic more than Evil Twin or Seer, like Naya Ramp and the other decks that try to go all in. When paired with Varolz and rapid Hybridization, I am pretty sure you sac or hyrbrid in response to the them discarding two and still draw two. Need to double check that. I know it now seems that I am reaching for solutions, but I also feel like the deck is at the point I can do that. Soul ransom fills that niche, fits the curve, gives us DRS targets, draws us cards, nets a dude if they have nothing to discard, and if I can verify the interaction of the triggers we can set up situations that are all in our favor.
Just wanted to say, that testing against the newer 4c reanimator decks would be a good idea. They are getting more popular and cropping up on mtgo more and more too.
If you don't already use mtgpulse.com for meta info you should.
Junk reanimator is not nearly as tough as 4c as the red splash just allows to to have more angles like the blasphemous act I let myself get blow out by.
When I get home I will post my latest list with changes and sb ideas. Hopefully that will help folks out.
As you can see, extra Varolz, 3 DRS, went back to 4 Strangleroot. One thing I like so far is how Varolz helps get extra evolves by sac'ing the undying guys.
The SB is still a mess, but the big weight pullers right now are Woodlot, Nighthawk, Far//Away, and Abrupt Decay. I am always up for trying stuff in the board, I may try hidden strings too, as I like the idea of being able to leave more mana up or cast another dude etc.
In general removal comes in for aggro along with either Crawlers or Nighthawks. Depending on the aggro type Far//Away come in as well. Usually take out the Seers, 1 or 2 rapids and 1 or 2 Spell Ruptures.
For Reanimator I usually bring in the Evil Twin, Negates, Putrefy and Far//Away. Take out a young wolf or two, spell ruptures for negates, and abrupt decay for Far/Away. Sometimes you can bring Crawlers in too, I mean pro green forestwalk is great against them, they try to kill it fast.
Control Matchups I will generally just up the pressure, cut the Decays, add Twin, Golgari Charms, and Negates. Possibly the second Simic Charm. You can even consider bringing in the Nighthawks to get the dude count to over 28 to make Lotleth Troll that much better. The worry cards are Aetherling and Blood Baron. They can make it hard to bash through.
A lot of the time it is just feeling the opponent. Seeing what they have played, have an idea of what they will bring in. They see aggro, so they board accordingly. So you can play games with them, by either really amping up the pressure or pulling back and playing the long game with Varolz and DRS.
Still not sold on 23 lands, but with these changes it may be necessary.
I respect your position on Snapcaster. I don't think it can be decisively shown that the deck is better with or without Snapcasters (partially because so few people play it) so by all means keep enjoying success with your list.
Regarding your success in the 2-mans do you think that's a result of so few people knowing the matchup against us and losing because of it?
Also what can you attribute to the bad Daily results?
The 2-mans are a mess, and on the average you see more blitz or bad aggro decks than not. I love to fight these decks because they need their nut draw to beat us.
Lack of daily success, could be matchups, but I think it is a combination of not having the list where I wanted it, and trying to plug holes with the wrong cards. Also, I tend to play the late Saturday PE, and one or two dailies during the week. It is entirely possible that i just didn't get the breaks and didn't play to my outs in the DEs, I think I saw more reanimator in the dailies too...
Went with gut instinct on the 3 strangleroot geists, I wanted to run some other stuff so I gave it a shot. Didn't miss them in this event. Does not mean I won't go back up to 4, it was a decision between cut on geist or one mangler, I chose to cut the geist and it worked.
I have been running 22 lands for a while now, there is not enough difference between 22 and 23 to really notice. I rarely mulligan, but almost always mull a 1 land hand barring something nuts with it like 4 1 cmc dudes and 2 rancor, and generally never keep a 5 or more land hand. I also chose no catacombs on the off chance that I needed to cast a t1 DRS and didn't have a forest, swamp or Overgrown tomb or Breeding pool. I could probably benefit from a split here. I ran 23 lands at first but I have felt pretty good with 22, especially in versions without the guildmage. I am going to test with 23 again to see if it helps at all with DRS and Varolz being mb as they can get mana hungry.
I think I had about 3 or four mulligans total. Granted not Mulling to 5 i think in game 3 in the top 8 cost me, but it was almost 4am and I didn't care, and I still almost got there. If I had remembered he was running Blasphemous Act I would have gotten there.
I have played this deck with snapcasters. In fact, I have been playing this deck for much longer than this thread has existed, and I don't like them. I go for more aggressive play with it. I don't really play the tempo cards as much.
That's not saying that they don't work, just not my cup of tea. I've had two great PE runs with the deck, lots of success in the 2-mans, but oddly not as much in dailies. Go figure. My build has more in common with the BG Aggro decks that were running hot in Block on mtgo.
I had notion thief for the control matchups, but I actually only brought him in against 4 c Reanimator running faithless looting. He could be a huge beating against them, or any other effects like that, or even Big Garruk. However I never felt the need for him so I am definitely cutting him for another Crawler.
Also, Far and away is useful, but feels clunky, I feel like I might as well run tribute to hunger or cyclonic rift. Also, never felt the need to use Negate so those may change too.
Just finished Six in a Premier Event. You will be able to see the list once it is published tomorrow. I have been experimenting with several cards with some success.
I really liked my woodlot crawler out of the board, and may make that two. Forestwalk is solid and the pro green is great too since is catches two big removal spells in Abrupt Decay and Putrefy. I don't know if I like the singleton High Priest and will probably replace him. This is more MTGO specific because of the proliferation of green based decks.
I am super high on the mb Deathrites. They are horses, so I may go to 3 there. DRS is so versatile and can just keep you alive sometimes when you need it the most. It also just gets those last few points you need to win.
I feel like Notion Thief could be great out of the board, especially in control matchups, but I only played one match where he came in and had a chance to make a difference. Needs more testing, and is very meta dependent, but he can pull some weight for sure.
I know I am rambling here, but a couple more thoughts, Zameck guildmages are okay, but sometimes just way too slow. I found myself siding them out. I may go to one, because he is useful, and adding a second varolz.
Varolz, who is awesome. Period. He makes all of your value undying guys even better.
if you have MTGO and want to watch the replays just look for tonight's PE I went 6-1 in the swiss, and just couldn't pull it out in the t8. Maybe next time once I have a better feel for SB.
Part of the reason for Experiment One was how awesome he combos with the Undying guys and Rapid Hybridization. Living the Dream is going Experiment t1, Wolf t 2, Rapid the Wolf on the end step of your opponent and having 8 power on t3, slap a rancor or drop a mangler and beat face. I have always been somewhat let down by Him, and I think that MD either Cackler, go more black, or Dryad Militant or stick with Deathrite. You are only playing 2 Hybridization so maybe you haven't been using that interaction as much.
Played in a standard DE with a very similar list to what I posted earlier, and didn't have the best run of it. Some due to variance and some due to my play.
I crushed RB aggro deck, which this deck should, and lost to naya blitz playing gruul war chant, where I mana screwed on keeping a 2 land hand (I know right) and then flooded. I have only lost to blitz twice now in 15 matches, so it made me mad. Second loss was to the psuedo mirror. Very similar lists except he was play predator oozes. Which seemed interesting but could also be harder to cast. Again in both those games maybe I could have mulled better, but it is tough to beat triple ooze with this deck.
That said, I am not that big of a fan of Varolz, so he is out for me, leaving a slot open. I like 3 hybridizations, and 2 ruptures, still testing and working out sb choices, far and away seems like it is solid, but what I wouldn't give for a snuff out or similar effect right now. Really love lotleth troll too so I run 3. Considering 1 Jarad, as I have seen that in some lists. Also may try the ooze line too.
Nevermind, it is a nonbo. Boo. A singleton Blood Scrivener still doesn't seem bad, but it is not good with Seer. I, for some reason, thought seer was a reveal then draw, but text is clearly put in your hand.
As for the other cards, I merely raised them since it seemed like no one was openly discussing options. There are lots of options, mainly SB cards. And Distorted Physique is a fine SB card, yes there are times when you drop your hand, and there are still many others where you slowly play out your game to avoid over extending.
I really want to test Blood Scrivener for some reason. I feel like there are many times when I drop my hand and go in top deck mode too often, and I feel like his essentially draw three when you have no cards in hand could be useful, and when stacked correctly with Duskmantle it is draw four. I feel like he isn't good enough, but still want to try.
Also, the only other rares I would try are Notion Thief, varolz and skylasher. Notion Thief would probably be an SB card, but he could be swapped for Dusckmantle Seer in the right matchups, like anything playing sphinx revelation. A singleton Varolz doesn't seem bad, and skylasher out of the board could be good against decks that use a lot of azorious charm or use augur of bolas to gum up the board.
As for Uncommons; Far/Away looks like a solid SB meta call.
Give/Take is probably a hair to slow and too cute, but it could draw cards or end games, so if should be tried.
Warped Physique Is not one I have seen mentioned here enough. This has all the parts we want for a solid SB card for removal. Especially once tragic slip rotates. Always keep this is mind, works great with Duskmantle too and will take care of a lot of different enemies.
[CARD]
Woodlot Crawler[/CARD] would be great if we didn't want to put rancor on it. However, it should be considered. In, color, and has big game against a lot of decks. SB card though, and probably not the best for us, but I could see it in other decks that want to use the pro and the forest walk combined with other good stuff.
out of the Commons, Beetleform Mage and Hidden strings are the only two that interest me. Hidden strigns can play the tempo game or pay for itself. It can allow us to swing and then untap our guys for blockers. It has a wide range of uses, but our list is so tight right now, I just don't know where to fit it in.
I have thought about running this list: http://mtgpulse.com/event/12986#182094
only with maybe replacing the highpriest with a putrefy (if the high priest has been good consistently for you tell me, but to me he feels kinda win more as he is only useful when you have board presence + a way to trigger him, additionally you usually dont want to tap your guys.
I am also not so sure about the memories journeys in the SB, against Junkrites I think it is better to just try to be faster than them, and even if you want to board in hate, cremate might be the better choice as it cantrips and most of the time I think you would only use the journey once, on one primary target.
This is purely theorycrafting as I have only played 3 matches with the deck yet.
If you want, you can read Eric's comments about his deck earlier in this thread. He wanted to make some drastic changes, and I don't think he is even playing it anymore.
Evil Twin is a must with Angel of Serenity around. It is a great way to recover there. If you think you will see Reanimator, then yes, you need twins.
Strawlies the only thing I don't really like about your list is the snapcaster + 9 instants. Just seems barely better than a shambleshark at that point.
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I am currently playing it along with BUG aggro too.
he ran;
4x Experiment one
4x Young wolf
4x strangleroot geist
4x Geist of st. traft
4x voice of resurgence
Spells-
4x rancor
4x selesnya charm
4x rapid hybridization
4x spell rupture
3x simic charm
4x hinterland harbor
4x temple garden
4x breeding pool
2x hallowed fountain
4x sunpetal grove
3x forest
3x loxodon smiter
1x centaur healer
2x purify the grave
1x unflinching courage
1x dispel
1x Negate
2x unsummon
2x rootborn defences
2x sundering growth
I want to make some small changes but otherwise it has been running well.
If you don't already use mtgpulse.com for meta info you should.
Junk reanimator is not nearly as tough as 4c as the red splash just allows to to have more angles like the blasphemous act I let myself get blow out by.
When I get home I will post my latest list with changes and sb ideas. Hopefully that will help folks out.
As you can see, extra Varolz, 3 DRS, went back to 4 Strangleroot. One thing I like so far is how Varolz helps get extra evolves by sac'ing the undying guys.
2 Forest
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Watery Grave
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Breeding Pool
Bodies
4 Experiment One
3 Young Wolf
3 Duskmantle Seer
2 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Spell Rupture
1 Simic Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Rapid Hybridization
3 Rancor
1 Tragic Slip
2 Negate
1 Evil Twin
1 Simic Charm
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Woodlot Crawler
2 Far/Away
2 Golgari Charm
1 Putrefy
1 Abrupt Decay
The SB is still a mess, but the big weight pullers right now are Woodlot, Nighthawk, Far//Away, and Abrupt Decay. I am always up for trying stuff in the board, I may try hidden strings too, as I like the idea of being able to leave more mana up or cast another dude etc.
In general removal comes in for aggro along with either Crawlers or Nighthawks. Depending on the aggro type Far//Away come in as well. Usually take out the Seers, 1 or 2 rapids and 1 or 2 Spell Ruptures.
For Reanimator I usually bring in the Evil Twin, Negates, Putrefy and Far//Away. Take out a young wolf or two, spell ruptures for negates, and abrupt decay for Far/Away. Sometimes you can bring Crawlers in too, I mean pro green forestwalk is great against them, they try to kill it fast.
Control Matchups I will generally just up the pressure, cut the Decays, add Twin, Golgari Charms, and Negates. Possibly the second Simic Charm. You can even consider bringing in the Nighthawks to get the dude count to over 28 to make Lotleth Troll that much better. The worry cards are Aetherling and Blood Baron. They can make it hard to bash through.
A lot of the time it is just feeling the opponent. Seeing what they have played, have an idea of what they will bring in. They see aggro, so they board accordingly. So you can play games with them, by either really amping up the pressure or pulling back and playing the long game with Varolz and DRS.
Still not sold on 23 lands, but with these changes it may be necessary.
The 2-mans are a mess, and on the average you see more blitz or bad aggro decks than not. I love to fight these decks because they need their nut draw to beat us.
Lack of daily success, could be matchups, but I think it is a combination of not having the list where I wanted it, and trying to plug holes with the wrong cards. Also, I tend to play the late Saturday PE, and one or two dailies during the week. It is entirely possible that i just didn't get the breaks and didn't play to my outs in the DEs, I think I saw more reanimator in the dailies too...
I have been running 22 lands for a while now, there is not enough difference between 22 and 23 to really notice. I rarely mulligan, but almost always mull a 1 land hand barring something nuts with it like 4 1 cmc dudes and 2 rancor, and generally never keep a 5 or more land hand. I also chose no catacombs on the off chance that I needed to cast a t1 DRS and didn't have a forest, swamp or Overgrown tomb or Breeding pool. I could probably benefit from a split here. I ran 23 lands at first but I have felt pretty good with 22, especially in versions without the guildmage. I am going to test with 23 again to see if it helps at all with DRS and Varolz being mb as they can get mana hungry.
I think I had about 3 or four mulligans total. Granted not Mulling to 5 i think in game 3 in the top 8 cost me, but it was almost 4am and I didn't care, and I still almost got there. If I had remembered he was running Blasphemous Act I would have gotten there.
I have played this deck with snapcasters. In fact, I have been playing this deck for much longer than this thread has existed, and I don't like them. I go for more aggressive play with it. I don't really play the tempo cards as much.
That's not saying that they don't work, just not my cup of tea. I've had two great PE runs with the deck, lots of success in the 2-mans, but oddly not as much in dailies. Go figure. My build has more in common with the BG Aggro decks that were running hot in Block on mtgo.
Also, Far and away is useful, but feels clunky, I feel like I might as well run tribute to hunger or cyclonic rift. Also, never felt the need to use Negate so those may change too.
Here is the list FYI:
4 Watery Grave
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Forest
:Dudes: 26
2 Zameck Guildmage
1 Skirsdag Highpriest
4 Experiment One
3 Young Wolf
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Duskmantle Seer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Strangleroot Geist
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
3 Rancor
1 Simic Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Rapid Hybridization
3 Spell Rupture
1 Tragic Slip
2 Negate
1 Evil Twin
2 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Woodlot Crawler
1 Notion Thief
3 Golgari Charm
1 Putrefy
2 Far/Away
1 Abrupt Decay
I really liked my woodlot crawler out of the board, and may make that two. Forestwalk is solid and the pro green is great too since is catches two big removal spells in Abrupt Decay and Putrefy. I don't know if I like the singleton High Priest and will probably replace him. This is more MTGO specific because of the proliferation of green based decks.
I am super high on the mb Deathrites. They are horses, so I may go to 3 there. DRS is so versatile and can just keep you alive sometimes when you need it the most. It also just gets those last few points you need to win.
I feel like Notion Thief could be great out of the board, especially in control matchups, but I only played one match where he came in and had a chance to make a difference. Needs more testing, and is very meta dependent, but he can pull some weight for sure.
I know I am rambling here, but a couple more thoughts, Zameck guildmages are okay, but sometimes just way too slow. I found myself siding them out. I may go to one, because he is useful, and adding a second varolz.
Varolz, who is awesome. Period. He makes all of your value undying guys even better.
if you have MTGO and want to watch the replays just look for tonight's PE I went 6-1 in the swiss, and just couldn't pull it out in the t8. Maybe next time once I have a better feel for SB.
I crushed RB aggro deck, which this deck should, and lost to naya blitz playing gruul war chant, where I mana screwed on keeping a 2 land hand (I know right) and then flooded. I have only lost to blitz twice now in 15 matches, so it made me mad. Second loss was to the psuedo mirror. Very similar lists except he was play predator oozes. Which seemed interesting but could also be harder to cast. Again in both those games maybe I could have mulled better, but it is tough to beat triple ooze with this deck.
That said, I am not that big of a fan of Varolz, so he is out for me, leaving a slot open. I like 3 hybridizations, and 2 ruptures, still testing and working out sb choices, far and away seems like it is solid, but what I wouldn't give for a snuff out or similar effect right now. Really love lotleth troll too so I run 3. Considering 1 Jarad, as I have seen that in some lists. Also may try the ooze line too.
As for the other cards, I merely raised them since it seemed like no one was openly discussing options. There are lots of options, mainly SB cards. And Distorted Physique is a fine SB card, yes there are times when you drop your hand, and there are still many others where you slowly play out your game to avoid over extending.
Also, the only other rares I would try are Notion Thief, varolz and skylasher. Notion Thief would probably be an SB card, but he could be swapped for Dusckmantle Seer in the right matchups, like anything playing sphinx revelation. A singleton Varolz doesn't seem bad, and skylasher out of the board could be good against decks that use a lot of azorious charm or use augur of bolas to gum up the board.
As for Uncommons;
Far/Away looks like a solid SB meta call.
Give/Take is probably a hair to slow and too cute, but it could draw cards or end games, so if should be tried.
Warped Physique Is not one I have seen mentioned here enough. This has all the parts we want for a solid SB card for removal. Especially once tragic slip rotates. Always keep this is mind, works great with Duskmantle too and will take care of a lot of different enemies.
[CARD]
Woodlot Crawler[/CARD] would be great if we didn't want to put rancor on it. However, it should be considered. In, color, and has big game against a lot of decks. SB card though, and probably not the best for us, but I could see it in other decks that want to use the pro and the forest walk combined with other good stuff.
out of the Commons, Beetleform Mage and Hidden strings are the only two that interest me. Hidden strigns can play the tempo game or pay for itself. It can allow us to swing and then untap our guys for blockers. It has a wide range of uses, but our list is so tight right now, I just don't know where to fit it in.
If you want, you can read Eric's comments about his deck earlier in this thread. He wanted to make some drastic changes, and I don't think he is even playing it anymore.
Strawlies the only thing I don't really like about your list is the snapcaster + 9 instants. Just seems barely better than a shambleshark at that point.