So, if this is gonna happened, which card replace brainstorm?
Zoo.
They won't ban brainstorm. It doesnt do broken things, it just draws broken (one) card.
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
RoF comes out against landstill because they have no clock, and RoF is mostly (emphasis on mostly) good for powering out bigger and better ETW.
It really boils down to the fact that in that matchup, Landstill is the beatdown. You board in as much hate as possible, take your time setting up, and plow through their protection.
Warden, you should have known this one
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
That said I will try subing more removal instead of more stack control and I still havent given up on splashing black for thoughtseize MD subing the same slots. Out of curiosity have you been having success in your testing of Still in the new meta? You are a respected Landstill player on these forums so just curious. IMHO we do need to critisize the deck as it helps to point out what problems people are having w/ it and where we think improvments can be made.(even if we dont know what those improvements might be)
I haven't been playing much landstill. DDFT has been a lot more stimulating since probe got printed so I've been running that.
As far as being my group's go-to control guy, so outside-of-tournament-testing, I haven't noticed anything different really since the pre-MM days. It's pretty much all the same matchups and splits, and I mean that. Zoo, CB, and tempo really havent gotten any new tools and combo is, as always luck dependent and, well, worse feeling now that I've played it with misstep. I don't see NORug faring well against zoo and goblins without MM, it hasnt seen much play from my side and SFM might well be too slow now as a strategy. Time will tell on that last bit.
Thoughtseize really doesnt fit in landstill. It's an even card trade that costs tempo and life, for good measure. The only thing I can think of that I'd want to duress away is NO, because everything else is just so threat dense that taking one card doesnt really further your game plan. I've seen people run duress in the SB for combo and control, giving you proactive answers to must-counters, but that's a marginal strategy since everything runs brainstorm anyway and you don't have more discard to back it up.
EDIT: @ Not drawing standstill: Well obviously. How often though do you topdeck it as card #8, or 9, or 10 and said "****, wish I'd kept that board clear!" For the most part your goal, which is easy to achieve unless your opponent gets a nuts draw, is to keep the board clear. That's why spot removal is better than countermagic in creature-based matchups, it's more efficient at getting you through the early game. You can't blame standstill for the times when your opponent drops 3 Nacatls after your turn 4 ***, sometimes the nuts is just drawn against you but the rest of the time you can make situations where standstill will work. I've honestly never had a problem with this phenomenon people seem to be describing. Playtest more and learn what to counter when and what to remove when.
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
The real problem with this deck and almost all of the control in legacy is that while everything is getting more and more broken, the best draw spells are now relatively under powered. Standstill is leagues better than Visions but by its very nature is a "win more" card. In a control deck with few creatures it takes time to let an opponent run out of steam and stabilize the board, only then is standstill useful... after the hard part is over. Looking back its hard to believe landstill ever worked. That's how weak factory has become. Visions fits into a control deck better because you don't have to be winning but most people who've used it will testify that its not a good card.
You know why you think standstill is bad? You're playing it wrong.
Standstill is almost universally a turn 2 or 3 play unless you draw it mid-late game. EOT turn 1, generally the idea is to remove their threat and drop a standstill generating card advantage and tempo that will bring you to turn 4 where your bombs come online and you win. I've won dozens, probably hundreds of games against aggro over the years forcing a turn 1 play and following up with a standstill to gain +1 CA and tempo. Against control and aggro-control, it's likely that they wont play a threat turn 1-2, or at least that it's a threat factory trumps which makes standstill a good play and essentially a must-counter for your opponent since you'll be getting bombs online in two turns. Commit to the strategy and make situations where the card works.
Are any of us playing magic anymore, or are we just sitting around whining about how standstill is underpowered in a format with 8 1cc RFG spells and free counters? Because unless your meta is 100% vial aggro, it still seems like it's good in all of the aggressive play situations it always was. This thread isn't about landstill, it's about how sad people are that it's theoretically bad now. Tune a list, anticipate the meta. If nothing else this goddamn conversation should be taken to "legacy general" about draw engines in control as nothing has been advanced or solved in like 5 pages.
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
So, manlands have somehow gotten worse recently? I mean, they were always below-power-level, but they always worked for out purposes. So what changed? Batterskull isn't much scarier than tarmogoyf for us really.
What decks do you really want shackles against*? That begs the question of "when is shackles better than humility?" IMO they're bombs against the same decks and have the same weaknesses. Shackles makes the deck play a lesser draw engine (has anyone actually played with visions? It's painful. Evan against a clear board it's a dead topdeck and with zoo and combo back to viable, they can kill you before you even get the advantage. Pair that with tempo decks and discard strategies (coughmaverick), which seem to be big now that misstep is gone which have classically been places where standstill shines.
The deck absolutely needs an overhaul. Because it sucks right now. But cutting the best available draw engine to add a not-as-good bomb? Streamline the strategy that works, tweak it to the meta (which we don't know anything about yet, anywhere), and get results.
*Assuming you're not running a SFM package. Which is probably the way I would go and in which case shackles does seems > humility. Visions still blows though.
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
When I was playtesting Stoneblade with standstills, I remember saying "This is landstill but with a better clock." It plays pretty much all the same, control, card advantage, it just forgoes the "take forever to win" part of the strategy so yeah, I'm absolutely willing to agree with Rignes that it's the same deck.
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
I'd still contend that Standstill is better than visions, and I know many who would agree with me. It takes more slots to make it work with manlands though.
Dark confident is the answer, really. Since you can go into your end game so fast the lifeloss isnt a gigantic problem like it used to be.
EDIT: Not necessarily for this deck. In general theory and play discussion.
rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
Please take some notes, would love to see how the lavamancers performed for you and in which MU's,
Agreed, I just cut my lavamancers and I'd like to see detailed results for what other people thought.
4 Bob
3 T. Mage
3 Naught
4 BS
3 SDT
2 Jace 2.0
4 FOW
4 misstep
3 CB
4 stifle
2 trickbind
3 go for the throat
1 needle
1 ee
4 waste
4 delta
2 tarn
1 strand
1 rainforest
4 sea
2 island
1 swamp
2 trickbind might be too many. more testing for the count with this build
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
I guess I can see that, the deck had been defunct besides a few solid places from our very own Warden. Anything to try to breathe new life into it.
I side out forces against zoo (usually two). It's a good strategy, and means I misread the comments on it. So.... keep up the smart plays?
My one thought is that daze and 3-4-5cc cards don't play well together. If it works though, playesting is > my theorycrafting.
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
I'm still wary of the high snare count, but if they've been working for you go for it. With 4 dreadnought I'd probably try to keep the trickbind in, maybe cut down to 2 snares for it? You just don't want to get stuck with a 'naught in hand without a stifle.
My other thought would be standstill: With both lavamancer and misstep, it's probably the best card in your deck since there are so many ways to make a nasty turn 1 situation. You really ought to consider upping the count to 4 to maximize that advantage (I'd cut a snare or a dreadnought to make it fit).
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
So I leave for a while and people start talking about sideboarding in daze, cutting force, and playing sword-equipment? What happened? O_o
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
Sounds like spot removal is going to be your best friend in that meta. Grim lavamancer+basalisk collar (I'd run him anyway in a Ur), lightning bolt MB, etc. will be worth their weight in gold, as would be splashing for hard spot removal.
Also, you may be running too many conditional counters. I found that playing 4 mental misstep is essential now, but that adding in spell snare and daze create too many dead draws late game while maybe being useful early on.
I also swear by 3x top, but hey, if two works for you two works for you.
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
Hey I was wondering how important wastelands are because I have once or twice have had issues casting counter spell turn 2 due to colors. I know that they are good with a standstill in play but we are playing hard counters so I was wondering if any one has tried replacing them with islands or with more duels or basics of a splashed color.
I personally haven't played them in a couple years for just that reason, and I know I'm not alone. Go ahead and cut them (keep a full set of factories in to make up for it), and see what balance of duals and basics works for you.
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
I think that merfolk will likely be the deck it's least relevant against. For the rest of the format it can act as a virtual time walk in late game topdeck wars (oh, drew a brainstorm? whatever) and will make countertop a lot less dangerous (YES I have a counter for that replayed top), helps against zoo's reach and 12+ of their relevant threats. Against merfolk late game I totally see it being useless, what you really want is more removal and a planeswalker.
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
Are you really having a problem post-humility? I've never had that problem, except for the occasional "well 10 1/1s can still get there" and that happens inordinately rarely.
Humility sticking should be gg 99% of the time against creature decks.
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rsaunder has beautiful eyes. Think of a sunset, sunrise, and cool breeze at the beach rolled into one moment. Now make that moment blue...because those are his eyes
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
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Zoo.
They won't ban brainstorm. It doesnt do broken things, it just draws broken (one) card.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
It really boils down to the fact that in that matchup, Landstill is the beatdown. You board in as much hate as possible, take your time setting up, and plow through their protection.
Warden, you should have known this one
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I haven't been playing much landstill. DDFT has been a lot more stimulating since probe got printed so I've been running that.
As far as being my group's go-to control guy, so outside-of-tournament-testing, I haven't noticed anything different really since the pre-MM days. It's pretty much all the same matchups and splits, and I mean that. Zoo, CB, and tempo really havent gotten any new tools and combo is, as always luck dependent and, well, worse feeling now that I've played it with misstep. I don't see NORug faring well against zoo and goblins without MM, it hasnt seen much play from my side and SFM might well be too slow now as a strategy. Time will tell on that last bit.
Thoughtseize really doesnt fit in landstill. It's an even card trade that costs tempo and life, for good measure. The only thing I can think of that I'd want to duress away is NO, because everything else is just so threat dense that taking one card doesnt really further your game plan. I've seen people run duress in the SB for combo and control, giving you proactive answers to must-counters, but that's a marginal strategy since everything runs brainstorm anyway and you don't have more discard to back it up.
EDIT: @ Not drawing standstill: Well obviously. How often though do you topdeck it as card #8, or 9, or 10 and said "****, wish I'd kept that board clear!" For the most part your goal, which is easy to achieve unless your opponent gets a nuts draw, is to keep the board clear. That's why spot removal is better than countermagic in creature-based matchups, it's more efficient at getting you through the early game. You can't blame standstill for the times when your opponent drops 3 Nacatls after your turn 4 ***, sometimes the nuts is just drawn against you but the rest of the time you can make situations where standstill will work. I've honestly never had a problem with this phenomenon people seem to be describing. Playtest more and learn what to counter when and what to remove when.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
You know why you think standstill is bad? You're playing it wrong.
Standstill is almost universally a turn 2 or 3 play unless you draw it mid-late game. EOT turn 1, generally the idea is to remove their threat and drop a standstill generating card advantage and tempo that will bring you to turn 4 where your bombs come online and you win. I've won dozens, probably hundreds of games against aggro over the years forcing a turn 1 play and following up with a standstill to gain +1 CA and tempo. Against control and aggro-control, it's likely that they wont play a threat turn 1-2, or at least that it's a threat factory trumps which makes standstill a good play and essentially a must-counter for your opponent since you'll be getting bombs online in two turns. Commit to the strategy and make situations where the card works.
Are any of us playing magic anymore, or are we just sitting around whining about how standstill is underpowered in a format with 8 1cc RFG spells and free counters? Because unless your meta is 100% vial aggro, it still seems like it's good in all of the aggressive play situations it always was. This thread isn't about landstill, it's about how sad people are that it's theoretically bad now. Tune a list, anticipate the meta. If nothing else this goddamn conversation should be taken to "legacy general" about draw engines in control as nothing has been advanced or solved in like 5 pages.
/rant
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
What decks do you really want shackles against*? That begs the question of "when is shackles better than humility?" IMO they're bombs against the same decks and have the same weaknesses. Shackles makes the deck play a lesser draw engine (has anyone actually played with visions? It's painful. Evan against a clear board it's a dead topdeck and with zoo and combo back to viable, they can kill you before you even get the advantage. Pair that with tempo decks and discard strategies (coughmaverick), which seem to be big now that misstep is gone which have classically been places where standstill shines.
The deck absolutely needs an overhaul. Because it sucks right now. But cutting the best available draw engine to add a not-as-good bomb? Streamline the strategy that works, tweak it to the meta (which we don't know anything about yet, anywhere), and get results.
*Assuming you're not running a SFM package. Which is probably the way I would go and in which case shackles does seems > humility. Visions still blows though.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Dark confident is the answer, really. Since you can go into your end game so fast the lifeloss isnt a gigantic problem like it used to be.
EDIT: Not necessarily for this deck. In general theory and play discussion.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Agreed, I just cut my lavamancers and I'd like to see detailed results for what other people thought.
4 Bob
3 T. Mage
3 Naught
4 BS
3 SDT
2 Jace 2.0
4 FOW
4 misstep
3 CB
4 stifle
2 trickbind
3 go for the throat
1 needle
1 ee
4 waste
4 delta
2 tarn
1 strand
1 rainforest
4 sea
2 island
1 swamp
2 trickbind might be too many. more testing for the count with this build
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I side out forces against zoo (usually two). It's a good strategy, and means I misread the comments on it. So.... keep up the smart plays?
My one thought is that daze and 3-4-5cc cards don't play well together. If it works though, playesting is > my theorycrafting.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
My other thought would be standstill: With both lavamancer and misstep, it's probably the best card in your deck since there are so many ways to make a nasty turn 1 situation. You really ought to consider upping the count to 4 to maximize that advantage (I'd cut a snare or a dreadnought to make it fit).
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Also, you may be running too many conditional counters. I found that playing 4 mental misstep is essential now, but that adding in spell snare and daze create too many dead draws late game while maybe being useful early on.
I also swear by 3x top, but hey, if two works for you two works for you.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I personally haven't played them in a couple years for just that reason, and I know I'm not alone. Go ahead and cut them (keep a full set of factories in to make up for it), and see what balance of duals and basics works for you.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Humility sticking should be gg 99% of the time against creature decks.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK