Has anyone tested Courser of Kruphix or Jace Beleren in this deck?
We don't care about our top card nearly as much as the opponent's. Think of self mill as a cool bonus you can do if you need to dig a little, not as a key play. At 3 mana, and doing nothing relevant to the deck (we curve out at 3-4, and by then, we are in topdeck mode), Courser is worthless in this deck.
As for Jace, I can see some use, but on the whole, it seems really bad compared to Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. I run that card in my build, and it works pretty well. Everything else that Jace does is kind of unecessary. The -1? Fine, I guess. The -10? Why use Jace to close out games when you can use Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas? That card supports the deck 100%, shuts off Affinity tricks, puts us back in the game if we are down on life, and often just wins in 2 turns. And many people think Tezzeret is a wasted slot (myself included)!
This is entirely luck. Given infinite 7 card hands, you'll find that these types of hands are stunningly rare. Assuming you shuffle so that your deck is random, it's impossible to 'overshuffle.'
It still sucks, though. Try getting KMCs. Even though they won't help, they're way better
Lifegain is terrible, I'm not really sure why you're considering it. Have you actually played with this deck yet? I think you'll find that your combo is inconsistent and way too mana intensive to have a chance of being good. The only lifegain that's remotely viable is Martyr of Sands, and it's only viable in Modern (where it generally is weak).
Have you considered the fact that each one of your combo pieces is awful? Tibalt is terrible, Transcendence is terrible, and MB Nature's Claim is also pretty terrible. That's about 10 cards devoted to the possibility of gaining 20-ish life. 10 cards. 10. Heroes Remembered would take up 1-4 slots, not make you lose the game, not be a dead card, and still would be terrible.
Have you even played Legacy? Legacy is about efficiency. Nobody cares if you can stave off death for 3 turns. This is the reason Delver of Secrets is a staple, and not Craw Wurm. Also, I can assure you Sorin Markov is not a staple.
Fast aggro? Combo? Control? Stax? Reanimator? There are a plethora of decks that would wreck his strategy. It's incredibly slow and incredibly gimmicky.
EDIT: Consuming Aberration in an "Ashiok deck?" Seems a little counter-intuitive.
Okay some quick questions for people who may be better with the deck than I am.
Always keep in mind I will be playing a spy version with green side board since i do not have the leylines and forces and shoals
1. No dredgers in opening hand, no cantrips, keep or mull? I know the chances to draw a dredger are pretty good, but Ive had multiple games where I keep and lose because I draw random stuff instead.
2. No dredgers in opening hand but 1 cantrip, keep?
3. No dredgers in opening hand but 2+ cantrips, keep?
4. It is the beginning of the game. it is about to be your turn 2, you have a dredger in the grave, and a street wraith in hand, do you cycle it during eot hoping to hit another dredger and ichorid or do you wait til main phase to make sure your draw step dredges and you continue to have the abilty to instant speed cycle whenever you feel comfortable?
The first 3 depend on the matchup. If it's game 1, I would mull the first, be hesitant on the second, and keep the 3rd. If it's postboard, then it's completely different. It really depends on the speed of your opponents deck. Against a deck like Quinn or Thresh, I might do the same as g1. Honestly, you have to decide whether or not you think a time walk for your opponent will win them the game.
Depending on whether or not I have dredgers in hand, I usually Wraith EOT for Ichorids. I have had terrible games where I whiff, however.
If I came off as hostile, I apologize. I would like you to read my posts again. You'll notice I didn't attack anyone, and I never denied that Spy was powerful.
As for the blue SB not putting up results, it already has. Do your research, like I have.
aj, I understand the logic behind kelpie, but what would you cut? Obviously Rider is a weak card unless you use Disrupting Shoal, in which case it becomes the best "combo piece."
For reference, here is a stock list with the blue plan. I would be very hard-pressed to deviate from this list, besides small changes like replacing Leyline with Mindbreak Trap.
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Shambling Shell
4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Disrupting Shoal
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Contagion (can be replaced with Sickening Shoal depending on how much DRS is in your meta)
As far as Griselbrand vs Spy, I'm done arguing my point. Rider is so much better that it's completely moot. If you can't afford FoW, I would say that even running Disrupting Shoal alone is better than the green SB or a fearless build.
Griselbrand is the best way to turn the engine on. He is the, if you will continue with the engine analogy, Nitrous that makes the engine run faster and lets you win.
Spy is good. Spy lets you do crazy dumb ***** that Manaless Dredge isn't supposed to do---which is transform into Cephalid Breakfast/Oops! All Spells! as soon as you Dread Return him. If you are feeling fearless and simply don't care about graveyard hate at all, play Spy.
If you want a deck that can trump and somewhat deal with hate, play Griselbrand.
If you just want to be nuts and counter stuff, play the blue version.
Yes, going fearless will win you games. It won't, however, win you every game. Here's a thought. Build a deck as if there is a meta, not as if you can combo every game on turn 2. This is why the blue build is miles better than anything else, and why a griselbrand build beats out a spy build since it DOESN'T FOLD TO FORCE.
Any large meta will be LOADED with blue decks. Yes, if everyone at your LGS plays affinity, play fearless by all means. But if you want to build a deck for any real tournament setting (which is what should be assumed unless you state that you only play against affinity), you build it to handle the metagame. Affinity is not the metagame, nor will it ever be. The meta is things like UWR Delver and Miracles. Both run FoW and both run RiP. If you play fearless vs these decks, you will cry.
The deck is, at its core, a grindy attrition deck. Play it and build it like that. If you want to reinvent the wheel, you're too late. Oops already exists.
If you still can't see how I am right, then you need to play more. Not condescending, just fact.
First off, Griselbrand WILL empty your library. That's just a fact. I have played literally one game where I didn't have enough dredgers, and I had 2 cards left, not 1 (which is what I usually leave with Griselbrand). Griselbrand is really just an engine.
Yes, we often win with our combo. This doesn't mean we are ANT or TES. We have 4 disruption pieces. 4. If you can't see why playing this deck like a glass cannon is bad, you are inexperienced. You claim that I am only looking at "certain situations" where I am correct? There are SO FEW situations where I am wrong that the 1 time where Spy is better is negligible. Read what Master of Puppets wrote, he basically summed up the reasons never to ever play Spy over Griselbrand.
IF YOU WANT TO PLAY SPY, PLAY OOPS. The dredge mechanic is an engine. Guess what? It's not suited to reanimator. Tin Fins/Oops/Belcher/ANT/TES/S&T/SI/Solidarity/Painter/Nourishing Lich/Cheeri0s/ANY DEDICATED COMBO DECK wins faster and more consistently than manaless dredge.* We have no card quality, we have no protection, we don't have much speed, and, most importantly, there are NO cards beyond DR that can be played in dredge for combo (besides fatties, obviously). Dredge is a broken mechanic, that's why our cards are generally weak. You don't see Emrakuls with built in Reanimates, do you? Instead we have 1/1 flyers that are the best creatures in the deck. Yes, we draw ~5 cards per turn, but we draw subpar cards.
People seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying. I never said that Spy won't win you the game. I never said that occasionally you will have less than 7 life. All I said is that you should not put Spy in your deck. Ever. For the eight time, this isn't a glass cannon deck. You can play it like that, but have fun losing to FoW. Remember what the whole theory behind manaless is? Blanking Force. If you want glass cannon dredge, play LEDredge. That deck loses to FoW (sometimes). On the upside, it's crazy fast. Unlike this deck.
*not to say dredge isn't crazy consistent, because it is. I just mean that we aren't consistent at comboing fast.
We don't care about our top card nearly as much as the opponent's. Think of self mill as a cool bonus you can do if you need to dig a little, not as a key play. At 3 mana, and doing nothing relevant to the deck (we curve out at 3-4, and by then, we are in topdeck mode), Courser is worthless in this deck.
As for Jace, I can see some use, but on the whole, it seems really bad compared to Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. I run that card in my build, and it works pretty well. Everything else that Jace does is kind of unecessary. The -1? Fine, I guess. The -10? Why use Jace to close out games when you can use Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas? That card supports the deck 100%, shuts off Affinity tricks, puts us back in the game if we are down on life, and often just wins in 2 turns. And many people think Tezzeret is a wasted slot (myself included)!
It still sucks, though. Try getting KMCs. Even though they won't help, they're way better
I think the manabase is fine as is. Tendo Ice Bridge is just better than anything else (besides Glimmervoid).
Have you considered the fact that each one of your combo pieces is awful? Tibalt is terrible, Transcendence is terrible, and MB Nature's Claim is also pretty terrible. That's about 10 cards devoted to the possibility of gaining 20-ish life. 10 cards. 10. Heroes Remembered would take up 1-4 slots, not make you lose the game, not be a dead card, and still would be terrible.
Have you even played Legacy? Legacy is about efficiency. Nobody cares if you can stave off death for 3 turns. This is the reason Delver of Secrets is a staple, and not Craw Wurm. Also, I can assure you Sorin Markov is not a staple.
I am curious to know which of City of Brass or Exotic Orchard is better. Does the 1 damage really matter that much? Or how about Reflecting Pool?
I am new to this deck, so please excuse any stupid questions.
Sorry, but that's not how City of Brass works. If you read it carefully, you'll find that it deals you damage whenever it's tapped, period.
Urborg is definitely a great addition to the deck, though.
EDIT: Consuming Aberration in an "Ashiok deck?" Seems a little counter-intuitive.
The first 3 depend on the matchup. If it's game 1, I would mull the first, be hesitant on the second, and keep the 3rd. If it's postboard, then it's completely different. It really depends on the speed of your opponents deck. Against a deck like Quinn or Thresh, I might do the same as g1. Honestly, you have to decide whether or not you think a time walk for your opponent will win them the game.
Depending on whether or not I have dredgers in hand, I usually Wraith EOT for Ichorids. I have had terrible games where I whiff, however.
As for the blue SB not putting up results, it already has. Do your research, like I have.
aj, I understand the logic behind kelpie, but what would you cut? Obviously Rider is a weak card unless you use Disrupting Shoal, in which case it becomes the best "combo piece."
For reference, here is a stock list with the blue plan. I would be very hard-pressed to deviate from this list, besides small changes like replacing Leyline with Mindbreak Trap.
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Shambling Shell
4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Disrupting Shoal
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Contagion (can be replaced with Sickening Shoal depending on how much DRS is in your meta)
As far as Griselbrand vs Spy, I'm done arguing my point. Rider is so much better that it's completely moot. If you can't afford FoW, I would say that even running Disrupting Shoal alone is better than the green SB or a fearless build.
Yes, going fearless will win you games. It won't, however, win you every game. Here's a thought. Build a deck as if there is a meta, not as if you can combo every game on turn 2. This is why the blue build is miles better than anything else, and why a griselbrand build beats out a spy build since it DOESN'T FOLD TO FORCE.
Any large meta will be LOADED with blue decks. Yes, if everyone at your LGS plays affinity, play fearless by all means. But if you want to build a deck for any real tournament setting (which is what should be assumed unless you state that you only play against affinity), you build it to handle the metagame. Affinity is not the metagame, nor will it ever be. The meta is things like UWR Delver and Miracles. Both run FoW and both run RiP. If you play fearless vs these decks, you will cry.
The deck is, at its core, a grindy attrition deck. Play it and build it like that. If you want to reinvent the wheel, you're too late. Oops already exists.
If you still can't see how I am right, then you need to play more. Not condescending, just fact.
Moved to Casual -Cythare
Magiclife.Yes, we often win with our combo. This doesn't mean we are ANT or TES. We have 4 disruption pieces. 4. If you can't see why playing this deck like a glass cannon is bad, you are inexperienced. You claim that I am only looking at "certain situations" where I am correct? There are SO FEW situations where I am wrong that the 1 time where Spy is better is negligible. Read what Master of Puppets wrote, he basically summed up the reasons never to ever play Spy over Griselbrand.
IF YOU WANT TO PLAY SPY, PLAY OOPS. The dredge mechanic is an engine. Guess what? It's not suited to reanimator. Tin Fins/Oops/Belcher/ANT/TES/S&T/SI/Solidarity/Painter/Nourishing Lich/Cheeri0s/ANY DEDICATED COMBO DECK wins faster and more consistently than manaless dredge.* We have no card quality, we have no protection, we don't have much speed, and, most importantly, there are NO cards beyond DR that can be played in dredge for combo (besides fatties, obviously). Dredge is a broken mechanic, that's why our cards are generally weak. You don't see Emrakuls with built in Reanimates, do you? Instead we have 1/1 flyers that are the best creatures in the deck. Yes, we draw ~5 cards per turn, but we draw subpar cards.
People seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying. I never said that Spy won't win you the game. I never said that occasionally you will have less than 7 life. All I said is that you should not put Spy in your deck. Ever. For the eight time, this isn't a glass cannon deck. You can play it like that, but have fun losing to FoW. Remember what the whole theory behind manaless is? Blanking Force. If you want glass cannon dredge, play LEDredge. That deck loses to FoW (sometimes). On the upside, it's crazy fast. Unlike this deck.
*not to say dredge isn't crazy consistent, because it is. I just mean that we aren't consistent at comboing fast.