Sorry I know your so wrong on this one. I'd played the game long enough to know that the card prices are spiked during tournament season. The difference that I noticed today, is that back then a major tournament was once a month and usually in a 6 month span. But today, SCG's is pushing a major tournament almost once a week. This is what's spiking the card price.
??? did I just read? Tournament season drives card price spikes.... tournaments are almost once a week!
Are you suggesting that cards are spiking in price every week?
Perhaps MtG follows some form of massive (although I assure you hardly unknown) pattern or relationship to deal with the SUPPLY or availability of a given item (specific cards) and the DEMAND for said items and that somehow these two *magically* interact to "force" vendors to raise prices. Either that or educated individuals are aware of the basics of a capitalistic supply-demand market and prices are also influenced (and indeed typically capped) based on what people will pay.
I do believe that SCG's was screwed by the banning of Survival of the Fittest. The card was going for 50 to 60 dollars before it got banned; this is not including the demand for some of the cards needed for the deck; so I think SCG corrected this error by only monopolizing unbannable/unreprintable staples. This is why 3rd edition Duals are over 100 dollars a pop and the spike of Fetchlands. It's doubtful that those cards will be banned in Legacy. I do believe SCG's thinks wizards is going to reprint force of will and wastelands - so they are not hording the cards. If they were hording those two cards, Force of will and wastelands could go as 300 to 500 dollars easy.
On the other hand, I dont think wizards is going to reprint Force of Will or wastelands because I really believe they dont like how SCG's is running the tournaments. I know I'm guessing this, but I think they see the game becoming like high stakes poker (yea, yea if you dont see this then you'll never understand the price spike of legacy cards). So why wont wizards reprint those cards? Well, SCG's believes the Legacy format will die if those cards are not reprinted, they said this 3 years ago. So far Legacy is strong (or stronger) and the 2 cards are not reprinted. I do believe wizards wants Legacy (the tournament level game) to die and that is why I believe they made Mental Misstep. The only problem to that, I believe they must had received a lot of feedback on the card (hate mail) and they hurried and banned the card.
I do think it'll be interesting to see what cards are made in the conspiracy set.
Clearly the secondary price and speculation is what drove the banning of SotF and not tournament data relevant to newly available card interactions.
I'm sure a company as well established as SCG lost massive capital when a card went from ~$20 >>> ~$65 >>> ~$15 (banned). If only there were any other expensive cards to move or rather any cards that moved in high volume through their coffers.
Way to state a solid opinion on that speculation. Would hate to see one's self divided against themselves.
You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong. So, you could have put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard which means you must have studied. And in studying, you must have learned that man is mortal so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Here's the thing, you cannot only judge cards in respect to what's currently popular, unless they are on the same axis as those current cards. Mana Drain does not work on that axis, the point of it being over powered is not that it makes the currently used cards too powerful (although it does that) but that it also allows much more powerful cards to be played
Very well put; the beauty of "power creep" with new cards is that it inevitably reduces the power gap for how "broken" or "abusive" currently banned cards are. The healthiest and best option for legacy is to keep printing new cards that push the limits of what's playable in a competitive environment and thus create some space for cards to be unbanned. Until new, pusudo-busted things are printed - don't expect to see any changes to the B/R list.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Expending on what Adam W posted, ETW is a preferred engine to have access to in the mirror match and when you need to be a control deck. Even storming for 3+ gets pretty brutal when you've got access to cabal therapy to abuse.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
If you're ready/willing to play through counter-top in addition to 1-2 permission spells - then go for the 8th card. Otherwise I think speed is your best friend, from ANT's perspective.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Plenty of people run DRS as a mana dork just fine. I wouldn't run him as your only dork though - GY hate, opp shamans, scooze, etc. are all highly played and between that and fueling your own GY - you've got a very inconsistent dork. I'd run at least 1 NH (or BoP if budget is a concern) so that you have a GSZ-able reliable mana source.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
TYVM. I actually ran 3 smiters in the main while testing GW and he's so saucy right now. I would definitely play him 3x in the 'board if I feel discard/counters are heavy in the room. Bob is totally a "must answer" and it only gets better when you have a progression of T1 mom, T2 confidant, T3 Knight. It's just so hard for decks to overcome that sort of build. Same for T1 swords (delver, early threat), T2 confidant, T3 thalia + waste.
Completely agree with this approach. The more I think about tossing BOB in the mix, the more I like it, it gives the deck gas, another 2-drop that has to be dealt with, and smooths out the "black splash" which seems just too good to pass up on with printings over the last two years.
I'm gonna toss my lot in the 4-wasteland camp too. With the consistency from GSZ + KotR, wasteland is something you can expect to find at least 2/3 games; typically several times. It slams out tempo and combo, while keeping control from hitting late game/color fixing. Games are just too easy to win on the back of wasteland tutoring. IMO dropping to 3x wasteland significantly hurts KotR, and the advantage(s) provided by mana dorks & thalia; so basically 1/4 of the deck. The "extra slot" from the 4th wasteland is very rarely going to be the weak-link in your list. There are match-ups and scenarios where there might be better options, but I hardly feel that is common occurrence.
EDIT:
@TMagpie
If you're having problems closing out games, I'd direct you to Garruk Wildspeaker. While he doesn't create an infinite army like Elspeth, Knight-Errant, he gives your opponent 1 untap step to have an answer before you can trample over his blockers. He can really pull games out against stalled out boards from delver/TNN as every creature you swing with will get into the red zone even if they block. Elspeth is certainly a more versatile PW, but if your issue is providing the finishing blow, then I think Garruk is worth a look.
Lightning Greaves... that's an interesting idea. I hadn't considered the card in any context other than Metalworker. Perhaps I'll try it out. I'm always in the market for spicy equipment.
Lately I've been wondering if Scryb Ranger is really worth the extra mana over Quirion Ranger.
As long as TNN and delver are popular I'd say yes. The double evassion and anti-jace of the green fae are the main reasons I play her - not the twiddle effect.
Lightning Greaves seems like a great idea - a sorcery speed way of duplicating Sylvan Safekeeper's ability that's more synergenic with the more recent return of SFM.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
The jump from 5 mana to six has a pretty big effect on your ability to drop it turn one.
You can simply double dark ritual out an Ad Nauseum. You'd need a third mana acceleration card for bargain. Which, you usually end up using three mana accell cards for a turn one Nauseum (you won't usually have double dark ritual, after all), so Bargain will tend to need a fourth as well for that turn one kill.
This is where I was going with my "Bargain decks will be relatively slow" bit. For a combo deck, at least. Bargain Storm would still easily be a consistent turn three deck. It just won't be a consistent turn two deck, probably. And legacy can handle consistent turn three decks.
Bargain isn't broken by being the fastest deck (SI, blecher, dredge variants, etc.) it's broken by being the single best CA engine ever printed. Hence, since you're not aiming for firing consistently turn 1/2 - you pack protection and dissruption. Barg allows you to dump your entire hand to cast your CA engine (similar in ways to PiF/AdN) but is far more abusable when in play. The ability to diversify/increase the non-turn-1-fire part of the deck is the major difference - not swapping out 2-4 cards of existing ANT shells and calling it a tiered bargain deck.
Legacy combo doesn't revolve around consistent turn 1/turn 2 wins. Anyone saying otherwise isn't talking about extended, competitive tournament play or is just flat out wrong/unfamiliar with the format.
/more discussion on cards that are never getting unbanned.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
At the cost of cutting Lion's Eye Diamond from your list. I don't think that's a sacrifice I'd be willing to make. You can't hold up a counterspell *and* use Diamond to cast something. Counterspells and Diamond just don't mix. And if you're cutting diamond, you're cutting the best card in the deck. For the ability to use counterspells instead of discard/silences for protection. It just isn't worth it.
En contraire, that's part of the beauty of Bargain. You can now run permission and LED.
LED provides acceleration into YB, and mana post bargain for tendrils. Drawing cards at instant speed means you can use LED mana to pay for anything in the deck when you play out each card one at a time. Vice-versa you can use permission early to ensure bargain resolves and then draw into LED's for typical legacy shenanigans.
Specifically FoW becomes available as a back-bone for a protection suite with the standard 12-16 cantrips as auto-includes.
Statistically, using a firearm in defense of self or property makes you less safe. Those who are carrying a firearm are more likely to be injured or killed in a crime than those who are not. The Harvard School of Public Health goes into this topic in detail:
The notion of civilians being allowed to own guns is absurd, but that's off-topic.
Just get an insurance policy that covers collectibles and document what you have carefully. The decks are worth a few thousand dollars, that's nothing to lose your life over.
Yea, lets only let the government have firearms, apart from directly violating the primary notions this country was founded on, history clearly shows that giving increasing power to the government at the expense of the people is a good thing.
You realize that the "in detail" that your linked study goes into is primarly (~90%) based on the research and findings of a single person who's looking at specific institutions located in California and DC right?
I know I always feel a lot safer with my 9mm at my side - whether I'm toting several thousand dollars of cardboard or not.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Armageddon is a lot better than choke against miracles because most lists run ~8 non-island mana producing lands. Sylvan Safekeeper makes the match much easier, though I don't like him against the meta by-and-large.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Just saying, other people obviously disagree with you or no one would play Modern. Also, Modern has not had more bans in the past 2 years than all other formats combined. Pauper had 5 bans and Innistrad Block Constructed had 2. Also, Modern has had just as many unbans as Legacy in the past 2 years.
Taldier, you are right about Theros. However, boring sets with no impact on other formats is not the only way to regulate Modern without bans. The Innistrad Block changed Modern and Legacy forever. Nothing was banned because of it. If we can get more blocks like that, Modern won't need more bans.
Congrats, my opinion isn't universal whoopie - that's the point I was getting at initially. Any opinion is going to be refuted/opposed to some extent so lets not clutter up space arguing about it.
I'm referencing sanctioned formats here, if you'd read the full post. Otherwise french & EDH take the cake on most bannings. Or we could talk about other non-sanctioned formats such as the little known "Anti-Pauper-Only-Rares-and-5-uncommons" format or the "You-Must-Run-At-Least-20-Identical-Card-Types-That-Aren't-Lands".
And clearly either way you slice it, legacy is hyper-popular and still growing.
We all get it, you like Modern and you think people are too harsh on the format. Please stop cluttering this thread with the same posts every few weeks. Not to be too harsh, but if you want to keep talking about the modern banned list and how good it is/isn't or about how wonderful the format is/isn't then start your own thread, perhaps even in the Modern sub-forum section. Or maybe a "Why is legacy so much more popular than X" thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
??? did I just read? Tournament season drives card price spikes.... tournaments are almost once a week!
Are you suggesting that cards are spiking in price every week?
Perhaps MtG follows some form of massive (although I assure you hardly unknown) pattern or relationship to deal with the SUPPLY or availability of a given item (specific cards) and the DEMAND for said items and that somehow these two *magically* interact to "force" vendors to raise prices. Either that or educated individuals are aware of the basics of a capitalistic supply-demand market and prices are also influenced (and indeed typically capped) based on what people will pay.
Clearly the secondary price and speculation is what drove the banning of SotF and not tournament data relevant to newly available card interactions.
I'm sure a company as well established as SCG lost massive capital when a card went from ~$20 >>> ~$65 >>> ~$15 (banned). If only there were any other expensive cards to move or rather any cards that moved in high volume through their coffers.
Way to state a solid opinion on that speculation. Would hate to see one's self divided against themselves.
You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong. So, you could have put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard which means you must have studied. And in studying, you must have learned that man is mortal so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
etc.
Very well put; the beauty of "power creep" with new cards is that it inevitably reduces the power gap for how "broken" or "abusive" currently banned cards are. The healthiest and best option for legacy is to keep printing new cards that push the limits of what's playable in a competitive environment and thus create some space for cards to be unbanned. Until new, pusudo-busted things are printed - don't expect to see any changes to the B/R list.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
This guy gets it. Also, much love for the SB Inky.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Completely agree with this approach. The more I think about tossing BOB in the mix, the more I like it, it gives the deck gas, another 2-drop that has to be dealt with, and smooths out the "black splash" which seems just too good to pass up on with printings over the last two years.
I'm gonna toss my lot in the 4-wasteland camp too. With the consistency from GSZ + KotR, wasteland is something you can expect to find at least 2/3 games; typically several times. It slams out tempo and combo, while keeping control from hitting late game/color fixing. Games are just too easy to win on the back of wasteland tutoring. IMO dropping to 3x wasteland significantly hurts KotR, and the advantage(s) provided by mana dorks & thalia; so basically 1/4 of the deck. The "extra slot" from the 4th wasteland is very rarely going to be the weak-link in your list. There are match-ups and scenarios where there might be better options, but I hardly feel that is common occurrence.
EDIT:
@TMagpie
If you're having problems closing out games, I'd direct you to Garruk Wildspeaker. While he doesn't create an infinite army like Elspeth, Knight-Errant, he gives your opponent 1 untap step to have an answer before you can trample over his blockers. He can really pull games out against stalled out boards from delver/TNN as every creature you swing with will get into the red zone even if they block. Elspeth is certainly a more versatile PW, but if your issue is providing the finishing blow, then I think Garruk is worth a look.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
As long as TNN and delver are popular I'd say yes. The double evassion and anti-jace of the green fae are the main reasons I play her - not the twiddle effect.
Lightning Greaves seems like a great idea - a sorcery speed way of duplicating Sylvan Safekeeper's ability that's more synergenic with the more recent return of SFM.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
^^
I mean, putting in terms previously we might as well ban any of the major staples for specific colors as they "restrict deckbuilding" ala:
DRS
SFM
BoB
Goyf
SnT
LED
StoP
Noble Hierarch
Lightning Bolt
etc.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Bargain isn't broken by being the fastest deck (SI, blecher, dredge variants, etc.) it's broken by being the single best CA engine ever printed. Hence, since you're not aiming for firing consistently turn 1/2 - you pack protection and dissruption. Barg allows you to dump your entire hand to cast your CA engine (similar in ways to PiF/AdN) but is far more abusable when in play. The ability to diversify/increase the non-turn-1-fire part of the deck is the major difference - not swapping out 2-4 cards of existing ANT shells and calling it a tiered bargain deck.
Legacy combo doesn't revolve around consistent turn 1/turn 2 wins. Anyone saying otherwise isn't talking about extended, competitive tournament play or is just flat out wrong/unfamiliar with the format.
/more discussion on cards that are never getting unbanned.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
En contraire, that's part of the beauty of Bargain. You can now run permission and LED.
LED provides acceleration into YB, and mana post bargain for tendrils. Drawing cards at instant speed means you can use LED mana to pay for anything in the deck when you play out each card one at a time. Vice-versa you can use permission early to ensure bargain resolves and then draw into LED's for typical legacy shenanigans.
Specifically FoW becomes available as a back-bone for a protection suite with the standard 12-16 cantrips as auto-includes.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I don't know... flash is still stupid busted with GB or Rector too.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Yea, lets only let the government have firearms, apart from directly violating the primary notions this country was founded on, history clearly shows that giving increasing power to the government at the expense of the people is a good thing.
You realize that the "in detail" that your linked study goes into is primarly (~90%) based on the research and findings of a single person who's looking at specific institutions located in California and DC right?
I know I always feel a lot safer with my 9mm at my side - whether I'm toting several thousand dollars of cardboard or not.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
So we can have an 8 DR, 8 LED combo shell - no thank you.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Congrats, my opinion isn't universal whoopie - that's the point I was getting at initially. Any opinion is going to be refuted/opposed to some extent so lets not clutter up space arguing about it.
I'm referencing sanctioned formats here, if you'd read the full post. Otherwise french & EDH take the cake on most bannings. Or we could talk about other non-sanctioned formats such as the little known "Anti-Pauper-Only-Rares-and-5-uncommons" format or the "You-Must-Run-At-Least-20-Identical-Card-Types-That-Aren't-Lands".
And clearly either way you slice it, legacy is hyper-popular and still growing.
We all get it, you like Modern and you think people are too harsh on the format. Please stop cluttering this thread with the same posts every few weeks. Not to be too harsh, but if you want to keep talking about the modern banned list and how good it is/isn't or about how wonderful the format is/isn't then start your own thread, perhaps even in the Modern sub-forum section. Or maybe a "Why is legacy so much more popular than X" thread.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.