What's interesting to me is that it doesn't include shroud. I kind of wish it did just to make it more generalized, but the fact that it doesn't makes me wonder whether the values of creatures with actual shroud will go up in eternal formats. Then again, maybe they never left.
I actually believe someone in new card discussion checked EDH rulings and it's legal. It was likely kept as part of the reminder text strictly to make it EDH legal. It makes plenty of sense, what wouldnt make sense is limiting all mono cards with this to B/W EDH only.
I don't think that it's resolved yet... There seems to be a discussion going on here:
A lot of people seem to be quoting the "Reminder text" rule as if this is settled, but the other examples given (Trinisphere, Charmed Pendant) only have reminder text that is giving an example, rather than something intrinsic to a rule for that reminder text. I wouldn't mind if this was ruled legal for mono-black EDH deck as I'd love to put one of these in my own deck, but within the current rules (without a specific exception) I honestly don't see how this is possible. Extort is a really strange keyword that I don't think really has precedence (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), but based on my current understanding of EDH rules I would say that a deck would have to support both black and white to play it.
This actually doesn't make sense to me... While that is reminder text it's basically a restating of what would be on the card if "Extort" was not a keyword. This is sort of similar to basic lands, which don't specifically have the text of "T: Add [Color] to the mana pool", but by the rules basically have that on them (and thus off-color lands cannot be used in your EDH deck).
I think that the EDH people would have to make a specific ruling on this. As it is I don't know why the fact that it's in "reminder" text would allow this.
So, the question is, what happens to the creatures at the end of turn when Act of Treason "wears off"? We figure he either gets to keep both creatures or both go back to exile/commander zone. What's the answer?
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
Infraction for editing post after a mod edit :/ -Woap
This card doesn't seem that great, honestly... It's like a worse Memoricide in a different color (remove it and suddenly you can play your cards again)... this effect wasn't even really wanted all that much when it was standard legal a year ago (Meddling Mage). Seems like a sideboard card at best, and decks that it would be "good" against should have lots of answers (Birthing Pod generally runs Acidic Slimes main deck, naturalizes probably in the sideboard post-rotation). I just don't see it having a huge impact, but maybe I'm wrong.
the thing that is most disappointing for me, is I don't feel that jace 1-3 fit along the same theme exactly... I was hoping for a UU Jace that was underpowered... maybe a jace that was like this
UU starts with 2 loyalty
+1 Draw 2 Cards and Put One Card In Your Hand Back On Top Of Your Library (mini brainstorm)
-2 Draw 2 Cards
-6 Take Two Extra Turns
As others have mentioned, this would be insanely broken. By turn 3 you could draw 3 extra cards and still have him around.
I sort of like the take on the new Jace.. In a dedicated mill deck you can still use the Ultimate to kill them, and in a non mill deck you can just keep drawing cards and then draw 20 if you want. Obviously, at 5 mana cost you'll need some way to protect him, but what are you doing for turns 1-4 anyway? =)
The Jace deck in Duels of the Planeswalkers 2012 plays a tribal illusions deck, so might want to look at that decklist to see if there's anything else interesting... I know it plays "Summoner's Bane" as some of its counterspells, so that might be something interesting (wouldn't surprise me to see it in M12 or INN).
@MarcumCumLaude
Well I play Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and I don't play Curiosity, Ophidian eye or Mind over matter and you probably know why... it's not funny and I have to diagree with somebody EDH IS a casual format. The first time our group of magic-players build a highlander (and later an EDH) we used a lot of cards that reanimated and so be banned mass grave removal then for a long period of time everyone played 5 colors and it was the most fun now we have unbanned things and banned new ones and at the Commander-release-event we met other EDH-groups and each of them had their own ban-list of cards that just weren't fun and some even forbid combo decks and made the rule that the game must resolve in a fight on the battlefield and I think that's what's EDH all about make your own rules and have fun and if their would be a card which ruins the fun (and I am sure this land isn't that bad card for this format) then just ban it.
I just hope wizard will be polite to us EDH-players and never make it a competitive format with big tournaments I think that would ruin it for me when people start getting competitive in my area.
I play Niv-Mizzet as well, but I do play the combo cards, because why not? It's by no means an unbeatable deck, and "comboing off" with it requires finding (typically) at least 3 cards, since just playing Niv Mizzet onto an open board is a recipe for getting him killed over and over again. I even play the "Transmute" cards that can get Curiosity or Ophidian Eye, but more often than not I'm getting something other than Curiosity/Ophidian eye because the board just isn't setup properly yet to combo off. Jhoira is a far more "annoying" commander that requires far less setup to "go off" if you ask me (Jhoira basically only requires 5 mana and anything good to play in hand).
The un-fun decks are the ones that don't let anyone else play Magic.. things that, say, blow up the entire board, then take a million turns, but don't actually kill anyone... those are the crappy decks. Niv-Mizzet, at least my Niv-Mizzet deck, doesn't really do that. Last time I played some multiplayer games with it I get whomped one game (even with both a Top AND Brainstorm under an Isochron scepter in play) and eked out the win (via comboing a way I'd never done before) in another game, but in both cases the games took a long time and there was lots of interaction before.
I do agree with you that Commander/EDH is a "casual" format, but that doesn't mean powerful cards/combos shouldn't be played. Half the fun of the format is seeing how all the powerful cards/combos interact with each other.
I play 2 decks with steal effects, including a Geth deck, and don't have an issue with this card. In fact, I'd say its damn necessary... A lot of steal effects are way too powerful (*cough* Bribery *cough*). Just like everything else in the game, "stealing" should have answers. This happens to be a good one.
And just like "stealing" has answers, so does this card... in fact, way more answers, (Strip Mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge and, of course, other stealing effects).
Maybe now I can finally get a damn Jace for my Niv-Mizzet EDH deck... I was about to trade basically a Bayou for one, but now it'll probably have to be more than just a Jace for it. =)
Interesting.. so as sort of predicted, Innistrad is playing with Graveyard themes.. possibly (probably?) bringing back Flashback, and using "graveyard" triggers more extensively (as I and I'm sure many others predicted after the "Dies" terminology was shown).
Yeah, black could especially use some artifact/enchantment removal considering it will now be the only color without that ability.
Spine of Ish Sah (and Phyrexia's Core) is in my mono-black Geth deck. Sure, not the cheapest removal, but at least it deals with anything and can be reused if you have Phyrexia's Core or another sacrifice outlet.
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I don't think that it's resolved yet... There seems to be a discussion going on here:
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15125
A lot of people seem to be quoting the "Reminder text" rule as if this is settled, but the other examples given (Trinisphere, Charmed Pendant) only have reminder text that is giving an example, rather than something intrinsic to a rule for that reminder text. I wouldn't mind if this was ruled legal for mono-black EDH deck as I'd love to put one of these in my own deck, but within the current rules (without a specific exception) I honestly don't see how this is possible. Extort is a really strange keyword that I don't think really has precedence (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), but based on my current understanding of EDH rules I would say that a deck would have to support both black and white to play it.
This actually doesn't make sense to me... While that is reminder text it's basically a restating of what would be on the card if "Extort" was not a keyword. This is sort of similar to basic lands, which don't specifically have the text of "T: Add [Color] to the mana pool", but by the rules basically have that on them (and thus off-color lands cannot be used in your EDH deck).
I think that the EDH people would have to make a specific ruling on this. As it is I don't know why the fact that it's in "reminder" text would allow this.
Well, except its answering a different question then, since the premise is wrong.
On the next turn, the Olivia Voldaren owner played Act of Treason on Olivia Voldaren, tapped the rest of his mana and took control of Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite with her ability. He then proceeded to kill me with his creatures as I was only at 13 life or so.
So, the question is, what happens to the creatures at the end of turn when Act of Treason "wears off"? We figure he either gets to keep both creatures or both go back to exile/commander zone. What's the answer?
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
Infraction for editing post after a mod edit :/ -Woap
Has NPH even been solved? If so, it didn't get posted on the main box mapping thread that I'm aware of.
As others have mentioned, this would be insanely broken. By turn 3 you could draw 3 extra cards and still have him around.
I sort of like the take on the new Jace.. In a dedicated mill deck you can still use the Ultimate to kill them, and in a non mill deck you can just keep drawing cards and then draw 20 if you want. Obviously, at 5 mana cost you'll need some way to protect him, but what are you doing for turns 1-4 anyway? =)
I play Niv-Mizzet as well, but I do play the combo cards, because why not? It's by no means an unbeatable deck, and "comboing off" with it requires finding (typically) at least 3 cards, since just playing Niv Mizzet onto an open board is a recipe for getting him killed over and over again. I even play the "Transmute" cards that can get Curiosity or Ophidian Eye, but more often than not I'm getting something other than Curiosity/Ophidian eye because the board just isn't setup properly yet to combo off. Jhoira is a far more "annoying" commander that requires far less setup to "go off" if you ask me (Jhoira basically only requires 5 mana and anything good to play in hand).
The un-fun decks are the ones that don't let anyone else play Magic.. things that, say, blow up the entire board, then take a million turns, but don't actually kill anyone... those are the crappy decks. Niv-Mizzet, at least my Niv-Mizzet deck, doesn't really do that. Last time I played some multiplayer games with it I get whomped one game (even with both a Top AND Brainstorm under an Isochron scepter in play) and eked out the win (via comboing a way I'd never done before) in another game, but in both cases the games took a long time and there was lots of interaction before.
I do agree with you that Commander/EDH is a "casual" format, but that doesn't mean powerful cards/combos shouldn't be played. Half the fun of the format is seeing how all the powerful cards/combos interact with each other.
And just like "stealing" has answers, so does this card... in fact, way more answers, (Strip Mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge and, of course, other stealing effects).
Spine of Ish Sah (and Phyrexia's Core) is in my mono-black Geth deck. Sure, not the cheapest removal, but at least it deals with anything and can be reused if you have Phyrexia's Core or another sacrifice outlet.