Im using your list at this next week. But I only have one jitte. What should I replace the other with? Price? Or a sword? Maybe an Ooze?
Edit: Why imposing Sovereign?
Edit 2: What about knight over Smiter? Which is better and why?
Imposing Sovereign is there for several matchups such as Sneak and Show, Tin Fins, Dredge, and anything trying to get a big guy through quickly. I changed it from Blind Obedience so you don't lose damage in the race against combo. It combined with several other cards creates a critical mass of cards to bring in against those combo decks, as no 1 cards is generally enough to stop them.
Generally when Knight of the Reliquary resolves she is as big as or bigger than Loxodon Smiter, and continues to grow throughout the game letting you smash past Tarmogoyfs and cycle through your deck so you can draw more spells in the late game. The uncounterability on Loxodon Smiter is occasionally good, but if they have to blow a Force of Will and a card you're generally fine with it as there's many more big threats in the deck.
Really there's no replacement for an Umezawa's Jitte, but if you can't get one a 2nd Price of Progress is a very good alternative.
After testing a few games with this list I can confirm - this performs quite well. I had some issues with KotR as he isn't really useful here. He sits on an odd place in the deck... and the Lavamancer doesn't like him either. I will continue testing and replace him with Loxodon Smiter - the inevitability is supernice against tempo decks, being bolt-proof adds the rest.
What do you think about KotR?
What would you Sideboard against tempo and control?
PS: with Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Grim Lavamancer and from the board Scavenging Ooze - we have a total of 13 Cards ripped in pieces by Rest in Peace... I know our miracles matchup isn't favourable anyways, but shouldn't we try to minimize the liabilites?
I cashed again with the same list from last time at SCG Columbus this weekend. I started off 5-0 and then lost to the RUG Delver deck that made top 8 because I made a couple miserable misplays and then the BUG deck that made top 8 because he drew every removal in his deck after that I managed to get the nuts drawn on my by Death and Taxes and I.D. in the last round.
I was just talking about how they pretty much only featured Todd, Gerry and Brad all day both days on the ride home. I was 5-0 with Zoo but lost to the RUG Delver then the BUG Control deck that made top 8 back to back.
I've been testing out a new list with Experiment One. By playing one other creature, it's as good as Loam Lion, and most games it'll end up being a Wild Nacatl that regenerates. Here's what I'm looking at right now.
With as much blue is in the format Fireblast is out, it's far too much of a liability. Angel of Despair is cool and all, but Oblivion Ring is actually castable and does more for the deck. You essentially want to turn Zoo into a complicated Burn deck though.
First off, no need to apologize. This is a discussion board after all and I for one am glad to see the Zoo thread receive replies.
As for Tower of the Magistrate, I don't think it's a bad idea at all. It's funny to see them waste mana on an equipment and then fetch your land and make it fall off. As you said, if your meta has a lot of artifacts/equipment and you have KotR, why not use his utility to tutor for a silver bullet land that helps you win? I'd say if anything, you're using KotR as he's intended and that's just good deck building since you're building around your meta.
The only question becomes, which non-basic you replace it with, but fortunately Zoo has 2 or 3 land flex slots where you can either smooth it out with more fetchlands or add a few utility lands so it shouldn't be a problem. If you're wondering how I got that, I usually start with 10 fetchlands, 5 dual lands, and one of each basic, which gives you 18 lands. You then have 2 - 3 open lands slots depending on if you want to run 20 or 21 lands.
I agree, if there's that much equipment running around just take the free win when you can. Also Sulfur Elemental might be a boon to you out of the sideboard if there's that many 1 toughness white creatures.
You also might look into Krosan Grip in your sideboard.
Also it looks like Blind Obedience is only ever sided in against Sneak and Show and if that is the case, I'd personally rather replace it with a sideboard card that has more utility than just one match-up. I'd personally say that two Crop Rotations are more useful than Blind Obedience since it shuts off both Show and Tell and Sneak Attack via Karakas fetch. Then again, I also run a Bojuka Bog and other utility lands so the Crop Rotation has a lot of value for me in the SB since I can side it in against multiple match-ups.
Anyway thanks for the explanation regarding Blind Obedience as tech against Sneak and Show. I hadn't thought of it.
I would bring Blind Obedience in against Elves and Goblins as well, I actually put Elves into a super awkward position where I had a Grafdigger's Cage and a Blind Obedience on the Board early and they just couldn't get anything going. If you can survive until turn 2 against Belcher decks to cast it then you can make all of their stuff come into play tapped which can give you the opportunity to win or kill their Belcher.
Except I suggested the opposite: Cutting a non-basic for a non-basic. So to say it's making your deck worse or your mana base worse is a misrepresentation of what I said. And I don't believe substituting a non-basic that RUG/BUG can Wasteland for another non-basic that RUG/BUG can Wasteland makes your mana base any better or worse.
I know you suggest cutting one of the nonbasics, and having 2 strictly white sources running around in the deck makes it much more difficult to cast things at times which is why I won't do it.
Lastly, I think your results and a conclusion are a bit misleading. You faced RUG/BUG nearly 30% of the time (10/36) and beat it nearly every time (as I would expect). I don't think that it's very likely that a Zoo player will face one very specific, favored match-ups so often while only ~10% of the time (4/36) face one of their extremely bad match-ups (Sneak and Show and Storm Combos) and zero UWx Miracle decks.
That's not an accurate representation of the decks a typical Zoo player will likely see and thus why many Zoo players think the current meta is so bad for Zoo. If anything, I think it's gotten worse with Combo on the rise to counter all the mid-range decks. Then again, as I said, if you realistically face so many favored match-ups so often, then yeah, I too would play Zoo and maybe that's the conclusion you came to based on your meta. I would *love* to see a meta filled with RUG/BUG or even better, Merfolk :tongue:.
At the same time, it's nice that you got good match-ups and won, but I disagree with some of the advice in your article. I won't get into it point by point, but one that stuck out was siding out Tarmogoyfs (our best beater) against Show and Tell for Blind Obedience. I'm guessing the logic is you can extort their cantrips so as to get ahead in life, but if you are using your mana to extort and not play creatures (one of which you took out) and accelerate your clock against them, than I disagree. Don't get me wrong though, your other sideboard choices against Sneak and Show make sense, but taking out Goyfs (who will likely be a 3/4 or 4/5) for Blind Obedience made no sense to me.
You should look at when I played Zoo when considering what I played against. The first tournament RUG Delver had been winning everything and was putting multiple copies into the Top 8 hence playing against it 5 times that day.
The U/W miracles deck hadn't shown up until after the 3rd tournament or at least hadn't put up significant numbers as of that time so it was something I wasn't likely to face.
Sideboarding out Tarmogoyfs against the Sneak Attack decks is the only logical choice as the games don't go very long to let him get big enough, and you can't side out Knight of the Reliquary or Qasali Pridemage as they are some of the best outs Zoo has against that deck. Taking out the 1 drops is also not something you want to do against those decks as putting a huge amount of pressure on them early can be key to winning. Blind Obedience shuts off the Sneak Attack portion of their deck so Karakas can shut off the Show and Tell into a creature portion, and it probably just sits there and does nothing the rest of the game.
As for losing to Wasteland, I simply just fetch my basic lands first until I know if they are on RUG/BUG, etc. and then it's a non-issue. Also Zoo is already favored against RUG Delver, so simply adding a Karakas to shore up one of your worst match-ups is better than increasing your win percentage against a deck that you already handily beat most of the time. It's almost always better to shore up a (popular) bad match-up than increase your win rate against a deck you already beat (unless you think you will see that deck a lot and the win rate isn't that much higher than 50%).
And again, you can simply avoid the scenario by simply fetching your basics first. Sure you could naturally draw into your Karakas, but you are already running quite a few non-basics from what I see so what is replacing one with another, more useful, non-basic going to do? Again, seems kind of odd to run Knight of the Reliquary and almost ignore his utility ability to fetch silver bullet lands for you. Yes, you mention Horizon Canopy, but I'd say that's not really using him to his maximum potential. He's much more than a simple beater and helps quite a bit in specific situations due to his utility.
If you're worried about what land to remove, you could remove a non-basic for a non-basic. I'd think removing a single Horizon Canopy would work and if you really don't want to lose those, a single Plateau. I think three is one too many.
I'd disagree than Academy Ruins -> EE recursion doesn't have a big impact on the game. EE for 1 or 2 basically blows you out of the water and it's on to Game 2. I'd agree that Esperblade and UWx Miracles are probably not as popular as seeing RUG Delver or Show and Tell, but to say it doesn't have a big impact is a bit disingenuous since EE just ends games against most Aggro decks. It's yet another reason why Aggro is doing so poorly as of late (the amount of board wipes).
Lastly, I don't know how your meta is, but according to SCG top 8 results, Show and Tell seems to be everywhere right now. However, it looks like in your four tournaments and 36 rounds, you only saw it twice (and *zero* UWx Miracles and only two Storm deck). That's only four extremely bad match-ups in 36 rounds so if that's representative of what you normally see, I could understand your deck building logic and why you are succeeding with the deck. Unfortunately, I don't believe that meta composition is the norm in many areas so to each his own.
Just because you're favored in a matchup doesn't mean you should make your deck worse against it by cutting a basic or making your mana worse.
As to Engineered Explosived being recurred, it's a very slow process that takes up your opponents entire turn and sometimes it takes them 2 turns. The diversity of casting costs in my list helps to prevent things like Engineered Expolosives from being such a blowout.
Also I would say of the decks I played in those 4 tournaments about 60% ran Wastelands, not just the RUG and BUG decks.
When I play at an SCG Open I expect to play against 2-3 combo decks, one of which will be an unfair combo deck like Sneak and Tell and the others to be pretty easily beatable like Painted Stone or Dredge. The rest of the decks that I expect to see are fair decks that I'll be 50% or better against.
And I understand Knight of the Reliquary is more than just a simple beater
I performed random shenanigans with him at one of the first Modern tournaments here http://www.pastimes.net/news/2011/oct/6/mtg-grudge-match-modern-top-4-decklists/ but when I tried other lands in Legacy they just got in the way. Every time I sleeve up the deck I think to myself how can I use Knight of the Reliquary to its fullest, and every time I go back to Karakas in the sideboard.
Still, wouldn't you consider maindecking it in a less-wasteland meta? Also Josh, what's your full view on how Zoo stands against most of the decks? Would you consider running Orim's Chant against combo?
On a side note, I've seen some successful list cutting Kird Apes and Loam Lions in favor of Stoneforge package. IMO, Kird Ape is still a better choice.
If Wasteland went to about 30-40% of what I played against then yes I would consider it.
I feel like Orim's Chant would just be a waste of a slot that could help against other matchups. Depending on the Storm build Pyroblast can be effective, Thalia is the win against them, and Grafdigger's Cage against the Past in Flames versions can stop them cold.
A while back I tried Stoneforge Mystic and every time I drew it I was disappointed as I would have rather draw one of my Umezawa's Jittes to cast that turn instead due to not having enough lands to make it effective soon enough.
This.
I feel if you're running KotR, you should run a few utility lands to fetch with him such as Wasteland and Karakas. Even as singletons they help immensely. Other than the obvious plays with Karakas, a single Wasteland can also help against decks that have Maze of Ith keeping your biggest beater at bay or cute Academy Ruins tricks with Engineered Explosives or Batterskull and Jitte.
One of the biggest things that caused me to lose was not drawing usable land. While it has its benefits against a couple matchups Karaks would essentially require me to run 2 white only sources in the main as Wasteland really hurts Zoo and the Plains is needed. It would result in losing 4+x the amount of games that it would win me so I decided it would have to stay in the sideboard. As far as using the Wasteland to blow things like Maze of Ith and Academy Ruins up, its not very often you see either of those lands and when you do they generally don't have that big of an impact on the game. When facing down a Maze of Ith they're generally forced to Maze your Knight of the Reliquarys every turn allowing you to use him to get a Horizon Canopy and out draw them. Running the Horizon Canopys instead allows you to get an incremental edge against the grindy decks on the format, which is what a majority of the format has been moving towards.
To sum up I would rather risk a game 1 loss against a Show and Tell deck that I might play against once in a tournament than lose lots of games to getting Wastelanded out all over the tournament.
Also something I've found is that Show and Tell won't mulligan a controlling hand in game 1 not knowing what you're playing, which allows Zoo a higher win percentage in game 1 than it should rightfully get since Show and Tell slows down by a couple turns.
I've been waiting to see if anyone noticed it, but I wrote an article about Zoo here http://legitmtg.com/competitive/the-legacy-menagerie/ . It discusses a lot of the things you're discussing and trying to figure out.
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How did your tournament go? The next I get to play Legacy is SCG Cleveland.
Imposing Sovereign is there for several matchups such as Sneak and Show, Tin Fins, Dredge, and anything trying to get a big guy through quickly. I changed it from Blind Obedience so you don't lose damage in the race against combo. It combined with several other cards creates a critical mass of cards to bring in against those combo decks, as no 1 cards is generally enough to stop them.
Generally when Knight of the Reliquary resolves she is as big as or bigger than Loxodon Smiter, and continues to grow throughout the game letting you smash past Tarmogoyfs and cycle through your deck so you can draw more spells in the late game. The uncounterability on Loxodon Smiter is occasionally good, but if they have to blow a Force of Will and a card you're generally fine with it as there's many more big threats in the deck.
Really there's no replacement for an Umezawa's Jitte, but if you can't get one a 2nd Price of Progress is a very good alternative.
This is the current sideboard
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Imposing Sovereign
2 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
Check the bottom of my article for sideboarding.
http://legitmtg.com/competitive/the-legacy-menagerie/
Not really, just use your common sense. Try not to get Wastelanded/Stifled out.
This is the list. it's my 5th money finish in a row at an SCG Open with the same main deck.
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
1 Price of Progress
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
It feels like everything Zoo doesn't want to do.
Here's more the direction I think you should be going with that...
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Reckless Charge
3 Price of Progress
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
1 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Oblivion Ring
With as much blue is in the format Fireblast is out, it's far too much of a liability. Angel of Despair is cool and all, but Oblivion Ring is actually castable and does more for the deck. You essentially want to turn Zoo into a complicated Burn deck though.
You're better off running something like Mindbreak Trap if you need to worry about those decks.
I agree, if there's that much equipment running around just take the free win when you can. Also Sulfur Elemental might be a boon to you out of the sideboard if there's that many 1 toughness white creatures.
You also might look into Krosan Grip in your sideboard.
I would bring Blind Obedience in against Elves and Goblins as well, I actually put Elves into a super awkward position where I had a Grafdigger's Cage and a Blind Obedience on the Board early and they just couldn't get anything going. If you can survive until turn 2 against Belcher decks to cast it then you can make all of their stuff come into play tapped which can give you the opportunity to win or kill their Belcher.
I know you suggest cutting one of the nonbasics, and having 2 strictly white sources running around in the deck makes it much more difficult to cast things at times which is why I won't do it.
You should look at when I played Zoo when considering what I played against. The first tournament RUG Delver had been winning everything and was putting multiple copies into the Top 8 hence playing against it 5 times that day.
The U/W miracles deck hadn't shown up until after the 3rd tournament or at least hadn't put up significant numbers as of that time so it was something I wasn't likely to face.
Sideboarding out Tarmogoyfs against the Sneak Attack decks is the only logical choice as the games don't go very long to let him get big enough, and you can't side out Knight of the Reliquary or Qasali Pridemage as they are some of the best outs Zoo has against that deck. Taking out the 1 drops is also not something you want to do against those decks as putting a huge amount of pressure on them early can be key to winning. Blind Obedience shuts off the Sneak Attack portion of their deck so Karakas can shut off the Show and Tell into a creature portion, and it probably just sits there and does nothing the rest of the game.
Just because you're favored in a matchup doesn't mean you should make your deck worse against it by cutting a basic or making your mana worse.
As to Engineered Explosived being recurred, it's a very slow process that takes up your opponents entire turn and sometimes it takes them 2 turns. The diversity of casting costs in my list helps to prevent things like Engineered Expolosives from being such a blowout.
Also I would say of the decks I played in those 4 tournaments about 60% ran Wastelands, not just the RUG and BUG decks.
When I play at an SCG Open I expect to play against 2-3 combo decks, one of which will be an unfair combo deck like Sneak and Tell and the others to be pretty easily beatable like Painted Stone or Dredge. The rest of the decks that I expect to see are fair decks that I'll be 50% or better against.
And I understand Knight of the Reliquary is more than just a simple beater
I performed random shenanigans with him at one of the first Modern tournaments here http://www.pastimes.net/news/2011/oct/6/mtg-grudge-match-modern-top-4-decklists/ but when I tried other lands in Legacy they just got in the way. Every time I sleeve up the deck I think to myself how can I use Knight of the Reliquary to its fullest, and every time I go back to Karakas in the sideboard.
If Wasteland went to about 30-40% of what I played against then yes I would consider it.
I feel like Orim's Chant would just be a waste of a slot that could help against other matchups. Depending on the Storm build Pyroblast can be effective, Thalia is the win against them, and Grafdigger's Cage against the Past in Flames versions can stop them cold.
A while back I tried Stoneforge Mystic and every time I drew it I was disappointed as I would have rather draw one of my Umezawa's Jittes to cast that turn instead due to not having enough lands to make it effective soon enough.
One of the biggest things that caused me to lose was not drawing usable land. While it has its benefits against a couple matchups Karaks would essentially require me to run 2 white only sources in the main as Wasteland really hurts Zoo and the Plains is needed. It would result in losing 4+x the amount of games that it would win me so I decided it would have to stay in the sideboard. As far as using the Wasteland to blow things like Maze of Ith and Academy Ruins up, its not very often you see either of those lands and when you do they generally don't have that big of an impact on the game. When facing down a Maze of Ith they're generally forced to Maze your Knight of the Reliquarys every turn allowing you to use him to get a Horizon Canopy and out draw them. Running the Horizon Canopys instead allows you to get an incremental edge against the grindy decks on the format, which is what a majority of the format has been moving towards.
To sum up I would rather risk a game 1 loss against a Show and Tell deck that I might play against once in a tournament than lose lots of games to getting Wastelanded out all over the tournament.
Also something I've found is that Show and Tell won't mulligan a controlling hand in game 1 not knowing what you're playing, which allows Zoo a higher win percentage in game 1 than it should rightfully get since Show and Tell slows down by a couple turns.