With draw 2, your outcomes are 1/9 to draw 0 spells, 4/9 to draw 1 spell, and 4/9 to draw 2 spells. LutS draws 1.33 Burn spells on average, but with some variance. It's worth 2 only 44% of the time. When you draw 1, you're basically adding a tax of R to that spell and that happens 44% of the time. That's too high for my liking.
The whole argument is quite sound, but I disagree with the conclusion a bit. 1.33 Burn = 4 damage, which is exactly the same rate as Boros Charm. At 2 mana for 4 damage, both LUTS and Boros Charm are very comparable.
Pros:
Doesn't require white
Draws you 1-2 lands when it's worse than Boros Charm (which are often not completely useless)
Combo with Swiftspear
Cons:
Requires Spectacle
Nonbo with Eidolon and Rift Bolt
Pressures you to play more 1 mana cards
No Indestructible mode
Added variance (it is really a con, or is it neutral?)
Edit: Actually costs ~2.5 mana to get 4 damage on average.
In the end, Boros Charm looks like the safe choice, but I'm not entirely convinced. Lots of these are hard to evaluate.
I've played some UW Spirits recently. Here's my perspective on a few cards.
Worship (1 Side) - Super good against some decks such as elves and humans. Shaman of the Pack can get around it but my opponent didn't realize that. Much better than wraths against creature decks in my opinion.
Curious Obsession (1 Main)- I love it when it works, but cutting creatures for more copies makes it less reliable. You don't want to draw more than 1, there isn't a surplus of openings where the opponent is tapped out or where you can reliably protect your investment. I'd like to play more than 1, but this is the most effective number of copies I think. Chart a Course seems much worst as it doesn't apply pressure.
Thalia (2 Main)- It's devastating against many decks. I consider going up to 3.
Phantasmal Image (2 Main) - The combo with Drogskol is sweet, but I side these out whenever there is removal. Similar restrictions to Curious Obsession in regards to having too many of these and not enough creatures to go with.
Giest of Saint Traft (1 Main) - Very matchup dependant, feels like a sideboard card.
Moorland Haunt (1 Main) - I don't play 2 because I feel like I'm already streching the number of colored sources. It's awesome in grindy matchups. I don't mind the nonbo with RiP.
Mutavault (4 Main) - Flooding problems can't really go lower thanks to this card. I want to cut 1 for a Canopy though.
Horizon Canopy (0) - One of these seems better than Mutavault for 2 reasons. First, it's a white mana source for Path, Thalia and sideboard cards. second, it opens up different options compared to when you have 2 Mutavaults.
Ghost Quarters (0) - Once again, colored mana sources.
Eidolon of Rhetoric (1 Side) - We rarely have to play multiple spells per turn thanks to Vial and Rattlechains, but this effect is very crippling to most cantrip decks. It is much better than Damping Sphere, except against Tron, but I don't have experience with that matchup.
Why is Assassin's Trophy played over Abrupt Decay?
First, consider the case of Nature's Claim versus Natural State. Every Dredge player seems to agree that hitting Leyline is more important than 4 life. Our main goal with Assassin's Trophy is to destroy sideboard hate, but we are rarely certain of what the opponent will bring in. I think every single deck out there can play Leyline of the Void if sideboard space is available, so it's great to be ready for it.
Second, consider the case of Assassin's Trophy over Abrupt Decay in GBx decks. It's commonly agreed that the former is better than the latter (twice as many copies per list on average for Trophy). On top of our main goal, Assassin's Trophy is a great card on its own and can be played profitably in many situations were there is no graveyard hate.
He pilots the deck like a champion and experiences a lot of though situations against a big variety of hate cards. If you want to up you Dredge game, watch the whole thing. I can guarantee even the most veteran dredgers will learn a few things.
Anyone tried Crackling Drake in the sideboard as an alternative to Thing in the Ice / Pyromancer's Ascension? It seems much worst due to the mana cost, reliance on the graveyard and needing to attack for a few turns, but, it draws a card. Might be good for grindy matchups where they don't have much removal.
Edit: Actually, it works against graveyard hate, unlike Enigma Drake.
Here's an analysis of the latest top 8 decks according to mtgtop8.com, spanning from early June to mid July. The goal is to figure out what are the current trends in top performing Dredge decks in term of card choices.
Manabase: Almost everybody plays 20 lands where the first 17 are always 6 Fetches, 6 Fetchable lands (2 RG, 2 RB, 1 Moutain, 1 Moutain/Forest) , 4 Copperline Gorge and 1 Dakmor Salvage. Decks typically run 2 lands producing blue between Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Mana Confluence and Steam Vents. The last few slots are filled with an additional Dakmor Salvage and/or one-of such as Blackcleave Cliffs, Ghost Quarters and Sheltered Thicket/Canyon Slough. Most decks only require red fetchlands, which should be diversified to confuse the opponent and play around Pitching Needle.
There are 7 flex slots left, 4 of which are additional enablers. Some people are going with the traditional Insolent Neonate, but old-school Shriekhorn/Tormenting Voice is becoming more popular. Notably, people don't mix them.
Everyone plays at least 1 Darkblast in the current meta, and top decks are evenly divided between the last dredger being an additional Darkblast or Thug.
The last card is most often Scourge Devil, with Haunted Dead being currently out of flavor. Other options are Lightning Axe, Driven/Despair, Collective Brutality, or additional dredger/enabler/land.
I played fetches because I like Blood Moon and didn't have the other lands. Opt might be marginally better than Pieces G1, but I like having a copy and liberating a SB slot for Blood Moon is worth it. Grapeshot got the cut even though having many is great vs Noble Hierarch and other X/1 or X/2.
Ended up 19th/135 with a 5-2-1 record.
Round 1 Jund. Both games he had little discard while I had the nuts. G1 he made the mistake of playing his shockland tapped instead of keeping Bolt up and I stormed off. G2 I activated Pyromancer Ascension quickly followed with 3 doubled Manamorphose. W
Round 2 Affinity. Played against a senior magician who was great. G1 He was too fast on the play with Plating. G2 was similar but being on the play and him missing the last lethal point of damage gave me time to do my thing. G3 he had a slow clock and no disruption. W
Round 3 Infect. G1 He was on the play and was faster with his Inkmoth Nexus. G2 He played T1 Elf which got killed by Grapeshot. Nothing else followed. G3 He had no creature except Inkmoth. He held up blue mana and I had Blood Moon in hand. His counterspell was a Dispel and he didn't draw any basics while I beat him up with my bears. W
Round 4 Knightfall. G1 I plan to Gifts for bears and win T5. He untaps with a Knight, and I gifts in response to him cracking a blue fetch to avoid getting countered. What I didn't realize is that he could win on the spot with Retreat to Coralhelm + land drop. In retrospect, I should have waited to know if he had the combo and used Rituals+Gifts to get an answer (Unsub+Repeal+Manamorphose+Noxious?). G2 he had a slow clock and only Spell Queller to disrupt me. G3 He seemed to need a lot of mana for a hand full of CoCo, so I Grapeshot his Hierarch T2 and his bird T3. Next turn he played Scavenging Ooze and exiled my win conditions, leaving me with 3 Bolts and bears in the deck to deal 16 damage. I stormed off soon after, but he wisely put all the Lightning Bolts I gifted for in the bin. I did 12 using Noxious Revival and PiF and bounced blockers to get Electromancer in the red zone, but he still had 1 life and at this point I was out of action cards. We were also out of time, he would have needed quite a few turns to kill me. Tie
Round 5 RW Prison. G1 Starts with a Leyline of Sanctity, Arid Mesa and Pithing Needle. Looked to me like a weird Lantern deck, but it was actually more of a Free Win Red deck with Simian Spirit Guide, Gemstone Mine, Rituals and Blood Moon. He had a fast clock with Chandra up to ultimate and I didn't have nearly enough time to get my Repeal. G2 He piled all the lock pieces with T0 Leyline, Blood Moon, Bridge and Chandra. I had Shattering Spree, Empty the Warrens, Engineered Explosives and Past in Flames, so I managed to blow up his Bridge and make goblins presenting a 2 turn clock, with PiF to flashback Spree in case of 2nd Bridge. His last 2 cards the following turn: Bridge, Rest in Peace. L
Round 6 Esper Control. G1 Starts with Leyline of Sanctity (3 in 3 games!). We keep playing and he's not sure if I have an out or if I'm just checking out his deck. He has a very slow clock of 1-2 spirits. On turn ~20, I am at 1 life and haven't drawn Repeal yet, but I go for it. I storm off with a bear, he counters my Repeal, I Noxious it and try again, he negates, I flash it back, he Snaps the Negate, I remand it with my last blue mana while he still has 2 lands, but he has no more counters! G2 I am faced with a T0 Leyline for the fourth time in a row, but goblins make a quick kill. W
Round 7 RG Eldrazi. Both games he had Temple, TKS, Smasher and Bolt for my bear. Got Smashed. L
Round 8 Mardu Pyromancer. G1 has all all the disruption and kills me kickly. G2 He makes me discard the Ascension and has a Spellbomb, but little attackers. Pieces of the Puzzle fills up my hand and I make 14 goblins, but at this point he has 2 Bedlam Revelers and 6 other blockers. He stabilizes, but a few turns later I refilled my hand with bolt, Grapeshot and enough goblins to secure the kill. G3 I have a kick Empty the Warrens which is countered by Anger of the Gods, but he has no graveyard hate and Past in Flames allows me to cantrip into a bear at which point I can go do a full Grapeshot kill. W
Closing thoughts: My previous FNM event with the deck had been underwhelming, with all games being very uninteresting one-sided affair where I never won. This post on reddit made me reconsider the deck in a new light, and watching Caleb's stream was kind instructive and fun. Had a blast playing in this tournament with many interactive games! Storm seems to be in a great position, and I'd go with the same decklist tomorrow if I had to choose.
Please someone explain me why Paul Muller SB...why pyromancer ascension? which mu is fixing???
Pyromancer Ascension is very good versus Fatal Push/Thoughtseize matchups where you already bring in Pieces of the Puzzle. Also great vs any blue Control where you have time to cantrip and they do not have GY hate. It is a much more durable bear that is activated quite fast when your graveyard is filled by cantrip, discard and Pieces. You can sometimes activate it at instant speed against graveyard removal such as Nihil Spellbomb if they wait until after the enchantment resolves.
What do you all use to represent mana/storm count in paper?
At FNM, I use dices. I participated to my first Competitive tournament last weekend and tried something new for Storm Count. Instead of using a dice, I keep track of all the spells played this turn by keeping it in a pile distinct from the old graveyard. When I flashback cards, I also put them in two distinct exile piles depending if they have been also played from hand or not. This way, the Graveyard->Exile and PlayedThisTurn pile count for 1 storm each and the Played->Exile counts for 2 each. The advantage is that there is nothing to miss/knock over, the disadvantage is that you have to communicate the board state clearly and that if you use Noxious Revival/Remand your spell it stops working and you have to tally up normally after. In competitive, both players have to keep up with the storm count, so that helps as well.
Here's my take on the two mana bases. I'll try to include every aspect:
Fetchlands:
1 Turn 1 non-blue sources
3 Non-red sources
Some deck thinning
Helps play with and against Blood Moon
Needed if you splash white
4 Reefs, 1 Bluffs, 4 Shocks, 4 Islands :
2 Turn 1 non-blue sources
4 Non-red sources (+1 filter which somewhats mitigates)
Less shuffling, keeps scrys on the bottom
Helps play against fetch hate (ThaliaV2, Leonin Arbiter, Mindcensor)
So overall, the manabase is better with fetchlands, and might even be slightly less painful according to DTG_UR. Fetching 2 lands or scrying 2 lands to the bottom will have the exact same effect on draws and fetching will happen more often. Fetches might be a bit worse with multiple Peer Through Depths. Blood Moon and hatebears considerations depends on the meta.
I'll stick with fetches simply for the better mana. If my meta was 50% hatebears I'd reconsider.
The new cycling cards of Amonkhet are really exciting! Also present are multiple new engine cards that reward cycling a lot. Notably: Drake Haven, New Perspectives and Shadow of the Grave.
New Perspective can be used to make a combo deck, somewhat similar to eggs or storm. On your big turn, you draw tons of cards, generate the mana you need and win 5 minutes later with your whole deck in hand.
More lists: 5-3 and 4-4 on MOCS. Both with 3 Weirding Woods, 23 lands including all basics. Mountain and Radiant Flames in the sideboard.
The plan
Ramp with Shefet Monitor and Weirding Wood while not costing cards. This is important for New Perspectives.
Don't die with Renewed Faith (0 cards), Haze of Pollen and Cast Out(-1 cards).
Cast New Perspectives (+2). Cycle to draw it if need be.
Cycle everything for 0. Generate mana with Shefet and Vizier.
When out of cyclers, cast Shadow of the Grave. Repeat.
Draw your deck, make 14 mana and win with double Second Sun.
Overall, there are 3 ways to win pre-sideboard: New Perspectives combo, Sphinx beatdown and Second Sun stall.
Maindeck card choices
New Perspectives is how you often win. You definitely want 4. If you don't draw one, the games are much more difficult. Playing it often makes you win if you have 3+ cyclers once it has resolved. Free cycling in a deck where most cards cycle means you can draw tons of cards.
Shefet Monitor is an uncounterable ramp that draws a card. Potentially gets you to 6 mana on turn 5. When you cycle for free, it generates 1 mana if you still have basics in your deck.
Weirding Wood also ramps without using a card and can be played on turn 3. Combo with Vizier. Fixes your colors very well.
Vizier of Tumbling Sands is almost only strictly used when cycling for free. It can untap a land, generating a mana, or 2 with Weirding Wood.
Shadow of the Grave makes sure you do not run out of cards and Viziers when New Perspectives is online. If you have a lot of mana but not New Perspectives, you can dig towards the enchantement with cyclers and Shadow, which can be worth it if it nets 2-3+ cards. Make sure you keep track of the cyclers you used this turn when you plan on using Shadow.
Haze of Pollen, Renewed Faith and Cast Out are the only help you got to endure until you draw Perspectives and have enough mana to cast it. Haze of Pollen and Cast Out decrease you hand size, so you can only play 2-3 depending on who played first and mulligans. Censor does something similar to Cast Out for cheaper, but is more situational and requires blue mana early.
Traverse the Ulvenwald is used to get the Sphinx against control decks and Vizier while comboing. Out of combo, delirium is not obvious, but is often obtained by cycling a land, an instant and a creature. The last type is either an enchantment getting countered or a previous Traverse. Early game, it makes sure you get all your land drops.
Sphinx of the Final Word is often a 4 turn clock against control. Note that it doesn't make enchantements uncounterable, which is why the flying beatdown plan is likely.
Approach of the Second Sun is the primary wincon when you resolve New Perspectives. Note that winning this way requires 14 mana for 2 Approach + 2 per Shadow of the Grave, which is why fetching up the Viziers with Traverse early is important. You should be fine with mana once you have a Wierding Woods, which should always be cast before spending on Approach. If you do not have New Perspectives but have lots of mana, casting Approach of the Second Sun buys you some time and can win a few turns later, especially by digging with cyclers. If you have cast and replaced Second Sun on top, you might not want to search and shuffle with Shefet Monitor or Traverse.
Roilmage's Trick is both halves of Haze of Pollen for 4 against small creatures.
Pulse of Murasa is similar to Renewed Faith and can rebuy early cycled Viziers unlike Shadow of the Grave.
Mana Base
The mana base requires green mana first (for ramp), then white (for utility) and blue/black (to combo off).
It is composed of the 12 GW+1 cycling lands, 2 Fortified Village as a pseudo-fastland and 7 basics to fetch 2-3 time reliably with Shefet. UU is needed for the no Perspectives Sphinx plan. Playing a Swamp is advised to make casting Shadow easier on a combo turn. Builds with more blue might like Botanical Sanctum.
Blue Control Censor, Negate, Disallow and Brutal Expulsion will stop the main combo. Traversing for Sphinx of the Final Word and resolving a Drake Haven are good alternative plans.
Overall, the deck is quite fun to play, and it gets very interesting when you are confronted with disruption or a hard to deal with clock. I'm not convinced it is has Pro Tour potential yet, but I'd be interested by the experience of other players with it. It might just be a worse combo deck than Aetherworks, but has the advantage of turning off all creature removal. Plus, drawing lots of cards never gets old.
With the whole spoiler out, here are my conclusions:
Cyclers that are definitively outclassed:
Every old 2 mana cycler (outclassed by either Archfiend or Sandwurm)
Architects of Will (outclassed by Horror of the Broken Lands)
Desert Cerodon is definitely making the list too. It could take the place of the following:
Any non previously auto 4-of:
-Aforementioned 2 mana cyclers
-SSG
-Beast Within
-Tech such as MB Faerie Macabre and Shriekmaw
Fulminator Mage
Deadshot Minotaur?
Monstrous Carabid?
Street Wraith is safe unless Burn becomes Tier 0. I am also doubtful that the good hybrid cyclers leave the deck since they are still big enough and make colors less of a problem turn 1-2.
I used to run 3 Jungle Weavers and 4 Architects. These will get replaced with the 8 new 1 mana cyclers. The last cut is probably the 3rd SSG since the "mana curve" goes down a bit.
I am not positive that any 2 mana cycler is worth it. In the past they were a somewhat necessary evil to have a critical mass of cyclers. Any pair of 1 mana cycler is probably better than a Sandwurm. Archfiend of Ifnir is interesting, especially against decks with little removal. I can imagine situations where it would shine, but it needs to be tested. It might have place among the "tech" cards.
Fulminator Mage is probably our best cards against control, BG and Tron, not cutting that.
Testing decklist would be the following:
19 Lands + 2 SSG
16 Cheap cyclers + 4 Wraiths
11 cards for the combo
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Removal/Tech among Faerie, Shriekmaw, Beast Within and Archfiend
Replacing Grave-Troll with dredgers is the obvious good decision. We might have to add 1-2 cards to our engine too, beyond just swapping 4 Thugs. Having the last 2 flex slots be more cards with Dredge or enablers might be more reliable then keeping Lightning Axe or Scourge Devil.
It seems the main difference is that we don't have an easy mainboard out to Grafdigger's Cage and that we'll have to flashback Faithless looting on turn 3 and 4, something I often skipped doing since Cathartic Reunion has been printed.
The deck won't be tier 1 anymore but that will cause a lower density of sideboard hate. I still plan on playing it in my next modern events after the bannings.
Conflagrate is not an enabler unless its in the yard. So definitely not keepable imo.
Turn 1: Cast Conflagrate for X=0.
Turn 2: Flashback Conflagrate and wipe their creatures
Turn 3: Get dredging!
As lvg mentionned, 2 lands that provide RR and G + a dredger + Conflagrate is reasonable keep against creature decks, especially if you are already on 4-6 cards.
I opted for 5 extra draw/discard (4 Voice/1 Inquiry) and 1 Rally the Peasants with no other flex cards to have the fastest goldfish kill game 1. I think this is a good beginner's list because you have a bit fewer options than with Darkblast and Hunted Dead. I expected a lot of Tron, Ad Nauseum and control decks so Darkblast and Lightning Axe didn't feel optimal.
I had doubts about Tormenting Voice because I saw many lists running only 2, but it seems miles ahead of Shrieking Horn and Burning Inquiry. I can't imagine running less than 4.
For the mana, I tried to switch a Blood Crypt for Overgrown Tomb. This seemed inconsequential, both choices look neutral. The important thing is that both provide the 2nd fetchable swamp.
Also switched a Mountain for Steam Vents, which was useful in a few occasions, although I could see preferring the Mountain against a lot of Path, Bloodmoon or Burn.
This manabase was very reliable albeit a bit painful. I can imagine other schemes working just as well.
For the sideboard, Ancient Grudge overperformed, I could even see cutting one as the affinity matchup is already pretty good. Decay and EE fulfill the same role of anti-hate and catch all answers. More or them felt necessary, especially on the draw when you can't Thoughtseize the opponent's Cage.
This deck is not fun. You fold to GY hate or steamroll them. Also tons of mulligans.
To my surprise, the deck is actually quite interactive and decision packed. I had a lot of games decided on the last draw. Playing around hate and controlling the board with attacks+conflagrate is very tricky.
One interesting idea I saw in this thread was to play more than 60 cards. One of the best performing decklist seems to do just that, adding a 21st land + an extra flex card.
Cutting a key card, an enabler or a dredger for a Vengeful Pharaoh or a Darkblast feels wrong, but diluting them a bit with 1-2 additional cards that works from the graveyard seems sensible. Anyone tried that?
Tournament report @ FNM: Only 10 people, but the most hardcore crowd I could expect of modern experts.
Round 1 against Affinity: Both of us played this matchup the previous day when I played the deck for the first time, and it ended badly for me. I tuned the deck and studied it a lot before the FNM, I felt much more ready.
I expected a good game 1 but got blown out when I tried to clean his Master and Vault Skirge with Conflagrate and he activated a man-land in response. Game 2 was a freebie where he drew 4 Ornithopters but no lands. Game 3 I cast a total of 4 Ancient Grudge while he drew no sideboard cards nor Etched Champion. (2-1)
Round 2 against UW control: Game 1 was done by about turn 5. I'm not sure he got to cast spells, maybe a Supreme Verdict on turn 4 that prolonged the game by a turn. Game 2 he Surgically Extracted my Grave-Trolls and it took a while to find Imps to fill my graveyard. He defended well using Walls of Omens, Finks and Restoration Angel, almost managed to kill me, but the pressure of 6+ creatures and Conflagrate was too much for him. (2-0)
Round 3 against Grixis Control: I faced the local hero/pro tour participant in the finals. Losing to him was almost a habit but I tried to manage the pressure. Game 1 was a steamroll of zombies where I could only see that he played Grixis color lands and Serum Visions. Game 2 he boarded in Grafdigger's Cage while I had nothing in my deck able to handle that. I fetched blue source to cast a few creatures, but my huge turn 5 Grave-Troll got spot removed and Kalitas quickly ended my game. Game 3 started great for me, but Anger of the Gods stopped the first wave. He didn't manage to find a Snapcaster and his Kalitas died multiple times to Conflagrate. (2-1)
Round 4 against Elves: Turns out that a final round was needed even though I was the only undefeated player. Game 1 I took out his board with a turn 3 Conflagrate and that was the end for him. Game 2 he gained millions life with Essence Warden but didn't find anything beyond 1/1 and 2/2 and I could still race faster by threatening a lethal Rally the Peasants and wiping the board with Conflagrate. (2-0)
Went undefeated, even after an extra match!
Final notes:
I did not miss Hunted Dead once even though I cut him. Conflagrate did about the same thing, maybe better.
The deck often has a lot of decisions at every point in the game and can be overwhelming at times. I went close to time every round. Definitely needs a lot of practice to mulligan faster/sequence late game Loam actions.
I got lucky no one played Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void.
The deck is definitely very good and fast. Feels unfair like affinity, but more consistant and resilient, though hardcore hate cards also wreck you.
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The whole argument is quite sound, but I disagree with the conclusion a bit. 1.33 Burn = 4 damage, which is exactly the same rate as Boros Charm. At 2 mana for 4 damage, both LUTS and Boros Charm are very comparable.
Pros:
- Doesn't require white
- Draws you 1-2 lands when it's worse than Boros Charm (which are often not completely useless)
- Combo with Swiftspear
Cons:- Requires Spectacle
- Nonbo with Eidolon and Rift Bolt
- Pressures you to play more 1 mana cards
- No Indestructible mode
- Added variance (it is really a con, or is it neutral?)
- Edit: Actually costs ~2.5 mana to get 4 damage on average.
In the end, Boros Charm looks like the safe choice, but I'm not entirely convinced. Lots of these are hard to evaluate.Worship (1 Side) - Super good against some decks such as elves and humans. Shaman of the Pack can get around it but my opponent didn't realize that. Much better than wraths against creature decks in my opinion.
Curious Obsession (1 Main)- I love it when it works, but cutting creatures for more copies makes it less reliable. You don't want to draw more than 1, there isn't a surplus of openings where the opponent is tapped out or where you can reliably protect your investment. I'd like to play more than 1, but this is the most effective number of copies I think. Chart a Course seems much worst as it doesn't apply pressure.
Thalia (2 Main)- It's devastating against many decks. I consider going up to 3.
Phantasmal Image (2 Main) - The combo with Drogskol is sweet, but I side these out whenever there is removal. Similar restrictions to Curious Obsession in regards to having too many of these and not enough creatures to go with.
Giest of Saint Traft (1 Main) - Very matchup dependant, feels like a sideboard card.
Moorland Haunt (1 Main) - I don't play 2 because I feel like I'm already streching the number of colored sources. It's awesome in grindy matchups. I don't mind the nonbo with RiP.
Mutavault (4 Main) - Flooding problems can't really go lower thanks to this card. I want to cut 1 for a Canopy though.
Horizon Canopy (0) - One of these seems better than Mutavault for 2 reasons. First, it's a white mana source for Path, Thalia and sideboard cards. second, it opens up different options compared to when you have 2 Mutavaults.
Ghost Quarters (0) - Once again, colored mana sources.
Eidolon of Rhetoric (1 Side) - We rarely have to play multiple spells per turn thanks to Vial and Rattlechains, but this effect is very crippling to most cantrip decks. It is much better than Damping Sphere, except against Tron, but I don't have experience with that matchup.
First, consider the case of Nature's Claim versus Natural State. Every Dredge player seems to agree that hitting Leyline is more important than 4 life. Our main goal with Assassin's Trophy is to destroy sideboard hate, but we are rarely certain of what the opponent will bring in. I think every single deck out there can play Leyline of the Void if sideboard space is available, so it's great to be ready for it.
Second, consider the case of Assassin's Trophy over Abrupt Decay in GBx decks. It's commonly agreed that the former is better than the latter (twice as many copies per list on average for Trophy). On top of our main goal, Assassin's Trophy is a great card on its own and can be played profitably in many situations were there is no graveyard hate.
He pilots the deck like a champion and experiences a lot of though situations against a big variety of hate cards. If you want to up you Dredge game, watch the whole thing. I can guarantee even the most veteran dredgers will learn a few things.
reliance on the graveyardand needing to attack for a few turns, but, it draws a card. Might be good for grindy matchups where they don't have much removal.Edit: Actually, it works against graveyard hate, unlike Enigma Drake.
Manabase: Almost everybody plays 20 lands where the first 17 are always 6 Fetches, 6 Fetchable lands (2 RG, 2 RB, 1 Moutain, 1 Moutain/Forest) , 4 Copperline Gorge and 1 Dakmor Salvage. Decks typically run 2 lands producing blue between Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Mana Confluence and Steam Vents. The last few slots are filled with an additional Dakmor Salvage and/or one-of such as Blackcleave Cliffs, Ghost Quarters and Sheltered Thicket/Canyon Slough. Most decks only require red fetchlands, which should be diversified to confuse the opponent and play around Pitching Needle.
Core (33 cards):
Payoffs: 4 Bloodghast, 4 Narcomoeba, 4 Prized Amalgam, 3 Conflagrate.
Dredgers: 4 Stinkweed Imp, 2 Golgari Thug, 4 Life from the Loam
Enablers: 4 Faithless Looting, 4 Cathartic Reunion
There are 7 flex slots left, 4 of which are additional enablers. Some people are going with the traditional Insolent Neonate, but old-school Shriekhorn/Tormenting Voice is becoming more popular. Notably, people don't mix them.
Everyone plays at least 1 Darkblast in the current meta, and top decks are evenly divided between the last dredger being an additional Darkblast or Thug.
The last card is most often Scourge Devil, with Haunted Dead being currently out of flavor. Other options are Lightning Axe, Driven/Despair, Collective Brutality, or additional dredger/enabler/land.
- -1 Opt, -1 Grapeshot, -1 Steam Vents, -4 Shivan Reef
- +1 Pieces of the Puzzle, +6 Fetch
- SB: +1 Blood Moon (4th Pieces in maindeck)
I played fetches because I like Blood Moon and didn't have the other lands. Opt might be marginally better than Pieces G1, but I like having a copy and liberating a SB slot for Blood Moon is worth it. Grapeshot got the cut even though having many is great vs Noble Hierarch and other X/1 or X/2.Ended up 19th/135 with a 5-2-1 record.
Round 1 Jund. Both games he had little discard while I had the nuts. G1 he made the mistake of playing his shockland tapped instead of keeping Bolt up and I stormed off. G2 I activated Pyromancer Ascension quickly followed with 3 doubled Manamorphose. W
Round 2 Affinity. Played against a senior magician who was great. G1 He was too fast on the play with Plating. G2 was similar but being on the play and him missing the last lethal point of damage gave me time to do my thing. G3 he had a slow clock and no disruption. W
Round 3 Infect. G1 He was on the play and was faster with his Inkmoth Nexus. G2 He played T1 Elf which got killed by Grapeshot. Nothing else followed. G3 He had no creature except Inkmoth. He held up blue mana and I had Blood Moon in hand. His counterspell was a Dispel and he didn't draw any basics while I beat him up with my bears. W
Round 4 Knightfall. G1 I plan to Gifts for bears and win T5. He untaps with a Knight, and I gifts in response to him cracking a blue fetch to avoid getting countered. What I didn't realize is that he could win on the spot with Retreat to Coralhelm + land drop. In retrospect, I should have waited to know if he had the combo and used Rituals+Gifts to get an answer (Unsub+Repeal+Manamorphose+Noxious?). G2 he had a slow clock and only Spell Queller to disrupt me. G3 He seemed to need a lot of mana for a hand full of CoCo, so I Grapeshot his Hierarch T2 and his bird T3. Next turn he played Scavenging Ooze and exiled my win conditions, leaving me with 3 Bolts and bears in the deck to deal 16 damage. I stormed off soon after, but he wisely put all the Lightning Bolts I gifted for in the bin. I did 12 using Noxious Revival and PiF and bounced blockers to get Electromancer in the red zone, but he still had 1 life and at this point I was out of action cards. We were also out of time, he would have needed quite a few turns to kill me. Tie
Round 5 RW Prison. G1 Starts with a Leyline of Sanctity, Arid Mesa and Pithing Needle. Looked to me like a weird Lantern deck, but it was actually more of a Free Win Red deck with Simian Spirit Guide, Gemstone Mine, Rituals and Blood Moon. He had a fast clock with Chandra up to ultimate and I didn't have nearly enough time to get my Repeal. G2 He piled all the lock pieces with T0 Leyline, Blood Moon, Bridge and Chandra. I had Shattering Spree, Empty the Warrens, Engineered Explosives and Past in Flames, so I managed to blow up his Bridge and make goblins presenting a 2 turn clock, with PiF to flashback Spree in case of 2nd Bridge. His last 2 cards the following turn: Bridge, Rest in Peace. L
Round 6 Esper Control. G1 Starts with Leyline of Sanctity (3 in 3 games!). We keep playing and he's not sure if I have an out or if I'm just checking out his deck. He has a very slow clock of 1-2 spirits. On turn ~20, I am at 1 life and haven't drawn Repeal yet, but I go for it. I storm off with a bear, he counters my Repeal, I Noxious it and try again, he negates, I flash it back, he Snaps the Negate, I remand it with my last blue mana while he still has 2 lands, but he has no more counters! G2 I am faced with a T0 Leyline for the fourth time in a row, but goblins make a quick kill. W
Round 7 RG Eldrazi. Both games he had Temple, TKS, Smasher and Bolt for my bear. Got Smashed. L
Round 8 Mardu Pyromancer. G1 has all all the disruption and kills me kickly. G2 He makes me discard the Ascension and has a Spellbomb, but little attackers. Pieces of the Puzzle fills up my hand and I make 14 goblins, but at this point he has 2 Bedlam Revelers and 6 other blockers. He stabilizes, but a few turns later I refilled my hand with bolt, Grapeshot and enough goblins to secure the kill. G3 I have a kick Empty the Warrens which is countered by Anger of the Gods, but he has no graveyard hate and Past in Flames allows me to cantrip into a bear at which point I can go do a full Grapeshot kill. W
Closing thoughts: My previous FNM event with the deck had been underwhelming, with all games being very uninteresting one-sided affair where I never won. This post on reddit made me reconsider the deck in a new light, and watching Caleb's stream was kind instructive and fun. Had a blast playing in this tournament with many interactive games! Storm seems to be in a great position, and I'd go with the same decklist tomorrow if I had to choose.
Pyromancer Ascension is very good versus Fatal Push/Thoughtseize matchups where you already bring in Pieces of the Puzzle. Also great vs any blue Control where you have time to cantrip and they do not have GY hate. It is a much more durable bear that is activated quite fast when your graveyard is filled by cantrip, discard and Pieces. You can sometimes activate it at instant speed against graveyard removal such as Nihil Spellbomb if they wait until after the enchantment resolves.
At FNM, I use dices. I participated to my first Competitive tournament last weekend and tried something new for Storm Count. Instead of using a dice, I keep track of all the spells played this turn by keeping it in a pile distinct from the old graveyard. When I flashback cards, I also put them in two distinct exile piles depending if they have been also played from hand or not. This way, the Graveyard->Exile and PlayedThisTurn pile count for 1 storm each and the Played->Exile counts for 2 each. The advantage is that there is nothing to miss/knock over, the disadvantage is that you have to communicate the board state clearly and that if you use Noxious Revival/Remand your spell it stops working and you have to tally up normally after. In competitive, both players have to keep up with the storm count, so that helps as well.
Fetchlands:
- 1 Turn 1 non-blue sources
- 3 Non-red sources
- Some deck thinning
- Helps play with and against Blood Moon
- Needed if you splash white
4 Reefs, 1 Bluffs, 4 Shocks, 4 Islands :- 2 Turn 1 non-blue sources
- 4 Non-red sources (+1 filter which somewhats mitigates)
- Less shuffling, keeps scrys on the bottom
- Helps play against fetch hate (ThaliaV2, Leonin Arbiter, Mindcensor)
So overall, the manabase is better with fetchlands, and might even be slightly less painful according to DTG_UR. Fetching 2 lands or scrying 2 lands to the bottom will have the exact same effect on draws and fetching will happen more often. Fetches might be a bit worse with multiple Peer Through Depths. Blood Moon and hatebears considerations depends on the meta.I'll stick with fetches simply for the better mana. If my meta was 50% hatebears I'd reconsider.
New Perspective can be used to make a combo deck, somewhat similar to eggs or storm. On your big turn, you draw tons of cards, generate the mana you need and win 5 minutes later with your whole deck in hand.
The following list went 5-0 in MTGO league:
4 Shefet Monitor
4 Vizier of Tumbling Sands
4 Weirding Wood
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Haze of Pollen
4 Renewed Faith
4 Cast Out
1 Approach of the Second Sun
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Scattered Groves
4 Sheltered Thicket
4 Irrigated Farmland
1 Fetid Pools
5 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Fortified Village
2 Dispel
4 Drake Haven
2 Kefnet the Mindful
3 Negate
More lists: 5-3 and 4-4 on MOCS. Both with 3 Weirding Woods, 23 lands including all basics. Mountain and Radiant Flames in the sideboard.
The plan
- Ramp with Shefet Monitor and Weirding Wood while not costing cards. This is important for New Perspectives.
- Don't die with Renewed Faith (0 cards), Haze of Pollen and Cast Out(-1 cards).
- Cast New Perspectives (+2). Cycle to draw it if need be.
- Cycle everything for 0. Generate mana with Shefet and Vizier.
- When out of cyclers, cast Shadow of the Grave. Repeat.
- Draw your deck, make 14 mana and win with double Second Sun.
Overall, there are 3 ways to win pre-sideboard: New Perspectives combo, Sphinx beatdown and Second Sun stall.Maindeck card choices
- New Perspectives is how you often win. You definitely want 4. If you don't draw one, the games are much more difficult. Playing it often makes you win if you have 3+ cyclers once it has resolved. Free cycling in a deck where most cards cycle means you can draw tons of cards.
- Shefet Monitor is an uncounterable ramp that draws a card. Potentially gets you to 6 mana on turn 5. When you cycle for free, it generates 1 mana if you still have basics in your deck.
- Weirding Wood also ramps without using a card and can be played on turn 3. Combo with Vizier. Fixes your colors very well.
- Vizier of Tumbling Sands is almost only strictly used when cycling for free. It can untap a land, generating a mana, or 2 with Weirding Wood.
- Shadow of the Grave makes sure you do not run out of cards and Viziers when New Perspectives is online. If you have a lot of mana but not New Perspectives, you can dig towards the enchantement with cyclers and Shadow, which can be worth it if it nets 2-3+ cards. Make sure you keep track of the cyclers you used this turn when you plan on using Shadow.
- Haze of Pollen, Renewed Faith and Cast Out are the only help you got to endure until you draw Perspectives and have enough mana to cast it. Haze of Pollen and Cast Out decrease you hand size, so you can only play 2-3 depending on who played first and mulligans. Censor does something similar to Cast Out for cheaper, but is more situational and requires blue mana early.
- Traverse the Ulvenwald is used to get the Sphinx against control decks and Vizier while comboing. Out of combo, delirium is not obvious, but is often obtained by cycling a land, an instant and a creature. The last type is either an enchantment getting countered or a previous Traverse. Early game, it makes sure you get all your land drops.
- Sphinx of the Final Word is often a 4 turn clock against control. Note that it doesn't make enchantements uncounterable, which is why the flying beatdown plan is likely.
- Approach of the Second Sun is the primary wincon when you resolve New Perspectives. Note that winning this way requires 14 mana for 2 Approach + 2 per Shadow of the Grave, which is why fetching up the Viziers with Traverse early is important. You should be fine with mana once you have a Wierding Woods, which should always be cast before spending on Approach. If you do not have New Perspectives but have lots of mana, casting Approach of the Second Sun buys you some time and can win a few turns later, especially by digging with cyclers. If you have cast and replaced Second Sun on top, you might not want to search and shuffle with Shefet Monitor or Traverse.
Also worth trying:Mana Base
The mana base requires green mana first (for ramp), then white (for utility) and blue/black (to combo off).
It is composed of the 12 GW+1 cycling lands, 2 Fortified Village as a pseudo-fastland and 7 basics to fetch 2-3 time reliably with Shefet. UU is needed for the no Perspectives Sphinx plan. Playing a Swamp is advised to make casting Shadow easier on a combo turn. Builds with more blue might like Botanical Sanctum.
Sideboard card choices
Angel of Sanctions
Dispel
Negate
Drake Haven
Kefnet the Mindful
Radiant Flames + Mountain
Sweltering Suns
Matchups
Aggro
- Side in: Kefnet to block? Angel. Drake Haven?, Fumigate, Dusk to Dawn, Radiant Flames
- Side out: Vizier, Traverse, Approach?, Sphinx
MarvelCan combo off on turn 4, which is faster than us.
- Side in: Negate, Forsake the Worldly, Dissenter's Deliverance, Dispossess
- Side out: Haze, Faith
Blue ControlCensor, Negate, Disallow and Brutal Expulsion will stop the main combo. Traversing for Sphinx of the Final Word and resolving a Drake Haven are good alternative plans.
- Side in: Negate, Dispel, Drake Haven, Kefnet
- Side out: Haze, Faith
Black DisruptionTransgress the Mind, Lay Bare the Heart and Pick the Brain (Brutal!) can eliminate your win conditions.
- Side in: Drake Haven?, Negate
- Side out: Sphinx?
Post side-board, watch out for instant speed enchantement removal on New Perspectives: Appetite for the Unnatural, Cast Out, Forsake the Worldly, Commit // Memory and Anguished Unmaking.Overall, the deck is quite fun to play, and it gets very interesting when you are confronted with disruption or a hard to deal with clock. I'm not convinced it is has Pro Tour potential yet, but I'd be interested by the experience of other players with it. It might just be a worse combo deck than Aetherworks, but has the advantage of turning off all creature removal. Plus, drawing lots of cards never gets old.
Reddit threads with more dicussion: here and here
Cyclers that are definitively outclassed:
- Every old 2 mana cycler (outclassed by either Archfiend or Sandwurm)
- Architects of Will (outclassed by Horror of the Broken Lands)
Desert Cerodon is definitely making the list too. It could take the place of the following:- Any non previously auto 4-of:
-Aforementioned 2 mana cyclers
- Fulminator Mage
- Deadshot Minotaur?
- Monstrous Carabid?
Street Wraith is safe unless Burn becomes Tier 0. I am also doubtful that the good hybrid cyclers leave the deck since they are still big enough and make colors less of a problem turn 1-2.-SSG
-Beast Within
-Tech such as MB Faerie Macabre and Shriekmaw
I used to run 3 Jungle Weavers and 4 Architects. These will get replaced with the 8 new 1 mana cyclers. The last cut is probably the 3rd SSG since the "mana curve" goes down a bit.
I am not positive that any 2 mana cycler is worth it. In the past they were a somewhat necessary evil to have a critical mass of cyclers. Any pair of 1 mana cycler is probably better than a Sandwurm. Archfiend of Ifnir is interesting, especially against decks with little removal. I can imagine situations where it would shine, but it needs to be tested. It might have place among the "tech" cards.
Fulminator Mage is probably our best cards against control, BG and Tron, not cutting that.
Testing decklist would be the following:
It seems the main difference is that we don't have an easy mainboard out to Grafdigger's Cage and that we'll have to flashback Faithless looting on turn 3 and 4, something I often skipped doing since Cathartic Reunion has been printed.
The deck won't be tier 1 anymore but that will cause a lower density of sideboard hate. I still plan on playing it in my next modern events after the bannings.
Turn 1: Cast Conflagrate for X=0.
Turn 2: Flashback Conflagrate and wipe their creatures
Turn 3: Get dredging!
As lvg mentionned, 2 lands that provide RR and G + a dredger + Conflagrate is reasonable keep against creature decks, especially if you are already on 4-6 cards.
Sure, here's what I ran:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
2 Mountain
Loam package
3 Life from the Loam
3 Conflagrate
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless Looting
Flex
4 Tormenting Voice
1 Burning Inquiry
1 Rally the Peasants
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Lightning Axe
2 Thoughtseize
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Darkblast
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Abrupt Decay
I opted for 5 extra draw/discard (4 Voice/1 Inquiry) and 1 Rally the Peasants with no other flex cards to have the fastest goldfish kill game 1. I think this is a good beginner's list because you have a bit fewer options than with Darkblast and Hunted Dead. I expected a lot of Tron, Ad Nauseum and control decks so Darkblast and Lightning Axe didn't feel optimal.
I had doubts about Tormenting Voice because I saw many lists running only 2, but it seems miles ahead of Shrieking Horn and Burning Inquiry. I can't imagine running less than 4.
For the mana, I tried to switch a Blood Crypt for Overgrown Tomb. This seemed inconsequential, both choices look neutral. The important thing is that both provide the 2nd fetchable swamp.
Also switched a Mountain for Steam Vents, which was useful in a few occasions, although I could see preferring the Mountain against a lot of Path, Bloodmoon or Burn.
This manabase was very reliable albeit a bit painful. I can imagine other schemes working just as well.
For the sideboard, Ancient Grudge overperformed, I could even see cutting one as the affinity matchup is already pretty good. Decay and EE fulfill the same role of anti-hate and catch all answers. More or them felt necessary, especially on the draw when you can't Thoughtseize the opponent's Cage.
To my surprise, the deck is actually quite interactive and decision packed. I had a lot of games decided on the last draw. Playing around hate and controlling the board with attacks+conflagrate is very tricky.
One interesting idea I saw in this thread was to play more than 60 cards. One of the best performing decklist seems to do just that, adding a 21st land + an extra flex card.
Cutting a key card, an enabler or a dredger for a Vengeful Pharaoh or a Darkblast feels wrong, but diluting them a bit with 1-2 additional cards that works from the graveyard seems sensible. Anyone tried that?
Round 1 against Affinity: Both of us played this matchup the previous day when I played the deck for the first time, and it ended badly for me. I tuned the deck and studied it a lot before the FNM, I felt much more ready.
I expected a good game 1 but got blown out when I tried to clean his Master and Vault Skirge with Conflagrate and he activated a man-land in response. Game 2 was a freebie where he drew 4 Ornithopters but no lands. Game 3 I cast a total of 4 Ancient Grudge while he drew no sideboard cards nor Etched Champion. (2-1)
Round 2 against UW control: Game 1 was done by about turn 5. I'm not sure he got to cast spells, maybe a Supreme Verdict on turn 4 that prolonged the game by a turn. Game 2 he Surgically Extracted my Grave-Trolls and it took a while to find Imps to fill my graveyard. He defended well using Walls of Omens, Finks and Restoration Angel, almost managed to kill me, but the pressure of 6+ creatures and Conflagrate was too much for him. (2-0)
Round 3 against Grixis Control: I faced the local hero/pro tour participant in the finals. Losing to him was almost a habit but I tried to manage the pressure. Game 1 was a steamroll of zombies where I could only see that he played Grixis color lands and Serum Visions. Game 2 he boarded in Grafdigger's Cage while I had nothing in my deck able to handle that. I fetched blue source to cast a few creatures, but my huge turn 5 Grave-Troll got spot removed and Kalitas quickly ended my game. Game 3 started great for me, but Anger of the Gods stopped the first wave. He didn't manage to find a Snapcaster and his Kalitas died multiple times to Conflagrate. (2-1)
Round 4 against Elves: Turns out that a final round was needed even though I was the only undefeated player. Game 1 I took out his board with a turn 3 Conflagrate and that was the end for him. Game 2 he gained millions life with Essence Warden but didn't find anything beyond 1/1 and 2/2 and I could still race faster by threatening a lethal Rally the Peasants and wiping the board with Conflagrate. (2-0)
Went undefeated, even after an extra match!
Final notes: