Gonna have to go with bahamut on this one. Muddle the mixture, thopter combo, fabricate, counters, duress and wrench mind/white creature removal....That's the winner, right there.
So, when you peek at the cards for shelldock isle, what are you going to put under it? I would guess, in a deck composed of mostly lands, you may very well end up with a very disappointing hideaway card.
Cascading is no more luck based than any other card draw mechanic. The real reason some people are angry about Jund is that they are only ordinary pilots. Jund is a deck that lets ordinary pilots beat other ordinary pilots... and so losing to it consistently with the decks that are "supposed" to beat it is a strong confirmation that they are not the extra-super-talented PT-level player than mommy always told them they were.
you do realize that in a field of pros who KNOW they are going to be facing Jund and KNOW that they must metagame appropriately, jund still takes up a good portion of those top8s, right? You've made it sound in previous posts like it is a bunch of sub-par players that allow jund to top8, but take a look at the worlds '09 results.
I mean, it isn't just like it is just scrubs who find themselves a bit weary of this stale format.
I mean, I know that bloodbraid and enlisted both cascade in to land control and create massive card advantage, but it appears that you plan on winning with just bloodbraids and enlisted wurms.
Needs more sphinx of jwar isle, ajani v, and or maybe something just super fun and not so competetively minded, like thraximundar.
I played a monogreen deck last FNM. I conceded to my first round opponent (I beat him 2-1 when we palyed for fun), then crushed each subsequent match. I played against sanity grinding, 2 x 5cc, and jund aggro. I had a free win when my 2nd round opponent didn't show up. My decklist, which is far from optimal, for reference:
I would actually try and find a way to add thorn of amethyst to the MD. I sided it in in every matchup, and it often was able to slow down every deck I played against. I run a few non creature spells, but far fewer than most decks, plus I accelerate like a crazy person. Bob someone or other did well in a Wisconsin PTQ (I think?) using a RG ramp style deck with 4x oversoul of dusk in the main, which would probably be a better card to run than the woodfall primus. I would also love to run 2x mosswort bridge, but couldn't find them before the tournament. The single soul's majesty was simply a curiosity. I figured I would run it as a surprise card draw card, then side it out once the opponent has seen the one copy. I figured it might make them save their removal in an effort to try and 2-for-1 me at some point.
I would drop deity of scars for deus of calamity because I won a few games off of turn 3 deus, but I haven't tested deity of scars. I like it's resilience! i'll give it a try next friday. I also like the masked admirers. I was never able to play in any of my games, but saw them take control of a game next to me.
Why would I tutor for removal in my deck full of removal? It seems like I would already have it, especially if instead of vess I have, you guessed it: removal.
Sorry I didn't make this clearer earlier, but when I was talking about Vess I was insisting you won't always have the BEST CONTROL card for a given situation. Sure, more doom blades and unmakes are great to have in hand, but sometimes a tendrils of corruption is better, or just a corrupt to end the game is better, or a trip noose for their troublesome collossus is better, etc. Vess is also great Vs 5cc if you can land her, whereas more doom blades seem...lackluster.
If you tried it and it didn't work for you, perhaps my meta just allows it and yours does not. If you didn't, I would encourage you to give it a few rounds as a 2/3-of or something.
Perhaps your statement on tutor effects is true to some degree, but I don't think it holds true with Vess. She isn't just an expensive vampiric tutor. She allows you to maintain a strong hold on the game either by tutoring or repeat discard, and draws aggro away from you. I understand the idea of just preferring to run cards that will "control the game instead of tutoring for cards to control the game" (please correct me if I'm paraphrasing you poorly), but you simply won't always draw the correct card to control the given situation. Sometimes the loss of tempo is worth the card quality. And tutoring for tendrils of corruption twice in a row against aggro usually makes up for the loss of tempo! (I just did that about 5mins ago).
I know Liliana Vess is good against control, but I've never been a fan of double Time Walk, if you know what I mean. I guess test it, and let me know how it works for you. I won't have a whole lot of time for testing this weekend, and may not even make it to FNM to play the updated list.
What do you mean by double time walk? Sorry, I'm slow :C
One of the other things I really liked about Vess was the ability to then run the deck with a few one-ofs. Haunting echoes was a one-of I ran in the main because I always would be able to search for it with a Vess. Once I was able to cast that, it was normally game. I have since switched to something including nightmare incursion like most of the folks in this thread for neutering my opponents deck, but I did just want to bring up the idea of using Vess as a way to run 2-3 silver bullets.
I actually have a player who is normally near the top tables running Warp World at my local shop as well, and I'm unsure how to deal with this.
If you wanted to metagame pretty strongly against the Vault player, I suppose you could try putting 4x spiteful visions in the SB. It won't win you the game outright, but it should stop them from taking a stupid number of turns in a row. I think the best bet is to just bring in more nightmare incursions and hope that you can get one of those off taking all of his planeswalkers. After that his only method of winning is decking, which haunting echoes and incursion allow us to win.
I run a build with a few more creatures, but may be making the swap to something more similar to you folks soon. Some of the cards I really just wanted to say I was behind (that I see some of you are using already) are Scepter of Fugue and Liliana. I was running scepter of fugue as a 4of in the main for a while, but eventually dropped them. It just sucked as a top deck. But whenever I had that card in my starting hand I can say that without a doubt the card was a house! It normally would take about 3-4 cards from a person, much more if they were palying control, and allowed me to resolve my gamewinning stuff. Liliana is a must counter vs control and buys you lots of time against aggro as long as you don't drop her while you are far behind (play vess, finding tendrils, they attack and kill vess for a pseudo fog or you search up another tendrils next turn as well).
I see what you mean with the haunting echoes. I thought as a 1-of it would be a nice tutorable inclusion, occasionally stealing games after I've killed a few creatures and forced them to discard a bit, but I'll try subbing it out for something else, maybe using the spot for a 4-of that you mentioned?
If I cut the scepter and the stillmoon to add in demigods and corrupts, I think that I might start to run into issues regarding my mana curve. Perhaps I'll add a bit more and see how that plays out. I'm curious as to why you dislike the stillmoon so much. He is solid against tokens, it slows down monored a little bit as they must burn him out, and dodges path to exile. I like those things, but of course I included him in my deck so I'm bias! Thoughts?
I want to stress how much I disagree with you regarding the usefulness of the scepter, by the way. Perhaps the matches where it has shined have been anomalies, but I've loved how it forced my opponent in to topdeck mode and doesn't allow them to have any tricks late-game.
Thank you so much! I'm going to try it out with your corrupt/demigod inclusions right now.
I figured I would post in this thread since it is about Monoblack, although I think mine is a bit of a departure from where you guys are coming from. I run a build more focused on control, and have had fairly good success with it so far. It isn't breaking the format or anything, but it is pretty cheap and somewhat strong.
NOTES:
- Without multiple Tendrils of Corruption, this deck struggles against dedicated red/hastey ball lightning.dec. This is kind of a big deal, so I'm trying to find things to put in the sideboard to help me out here. Any ideas?
- Wall of Bone, although janky looking beyond all imagining, is a very cute inclusion. It dodges doom blade and survives lightning bolt, minimizes ball lightning damage and stops hellspark elemental, and also blocks bloodbraids and kitchen finks. It really shines against Bant as well.
- To shore up token matchups, Stillmoon Cavalier was included. Unfortunately, so was Infest. This is a horrible combination, so does anyone have any other ideas that could take the place of these slots that will still fulfill similar roles in this deck?
- Scepter of Fugue is amazing VS control. Absolutely amazing. It is what keeps this deck competitive in that matchup. It may be worth trying to mulligan into it in that matchup very aggressively. Even outside of that matchup however, I'm often pleased to draw it. It has outperformed my expectations.
What are your guys' thoughts on this build of mono black? I'm not the strongest deck builder, so any help is greatly appreciated.
you do realize that in a field of pros who KNOW they are going to be facing Jund and KNOW that they must metagame appropriately, jund still takes up a good portion of those top8s, right? You've made it sound in previous posts like it is a bunch of sub-par players that allow jund to top8, but take a look at the worlds '09 results.
I mean, it isn't just like it is just scrubs who find themselves a bit weary of this stale format.
Needs more sphinx of jwar isle, ajani v, and or maybe something just super fun and not so competetively minded, like thraximundar.
Haha, touche! Mon's Goblin Raiders is also a rare from the Starter Set in '99 apparently. That seems rather bad.
4x deus of calamity
4x overbeing of myth
3x woodfall primus
3x cloudthresher
4x llanowar elves
3x noble hierarch
4x rampant growth
4x fertile ground
1x soul's majesty
23x forest
3x thorn of amethyst
4x guttural response
2x primal command
1x masked admirers
1x cloudthresher
4x something???
I would actually try and find a way to add thorn of amethyst to the MD. I sided it in in every matchup, and it often was able to slow down every deck I played against. I run a few non creature spells, but far fewer than most decks, plus I accelerate like a crazy person. Bob someone or other did well in a Wisconsin PTQ (I think?) using a RG ramp style deck with 4x oversoul of dusk in the main, which would probably be a better card to run than the woodfall primus. I would also love to run 2x mosswort bridge, but couldn't find them before the tournament. The single soul's majesty was simply a curiosity. I figured I would run it as a surprise card draw card, then side it out once the opponent has seen the one copy. I figured it might make them save their removal in an effort to try and 2-for-1 me at some point.
I would drop deity of scars for deus of calamity because I won a few games off of turn 3 deus, but I haven't tested deity of scars. I like it's resilience! i'll give it a try next friday. I also like the masked admirers. I was never able to play in any of my games, but saw them take control of a game next to me.
Sorry I didn't make this clearer earlier, but when I was talking about Vess I was insisting you won't always have the BEST CONTROL card for a given situation. Sure, more doom blades and unmakes are great to have in hand, but sometimes a tendrils of corruption is better, or just a corrupt to end the game is better, or a trip noose for their troublesome collossus is better, etc. Vess is also great Vs 5cc if you can land her, whereas more doom blades seem...lackluster.
If you tried it and it didn't work for you, perhaps my meta just allows it and yours does not. If you didn't, I would encourage you to give it a few rounds as a 2/3-of or something.
One of the other things I really liked about Vess was the ability to then run the deck with a few one-ofs. Haunting echoes was a one-of I ran in the main because I always would be able to search for it with a Vess. Once I was able to cast that, it was normally game. I have since switched to something including nightmare incursion like most of the folks in this thread for neutering my opponents deck, but I did just want to bring up the idea of using Vess as a way to run 2-3 silver bullets.
If you wanted to metagame pretty strongly against the Vault player, I suppose you could try putting 4x spiteful visions in the SB. It won't win you the game outright, but it should stop them from taking a stupid number of turns in a row. I think the best bet is to just bring in more nightmare incursions and hope that you can get one of those off taking all of his planeswalkers. After that his only method of winning is decking, which haunting echoes and incursion allow us to win.
I see what you mean with the haunting echoes. I thought as a 1-of it would be a nice tutorable inclusion, occasionally stealing games after I've killed a few creatures and forced them to discard a bit, but I'll try subbing it out for something else, maybe using the spot for a 4-of that you mentioned?
If I cut the scepter and the stillmoon to add in demigods and corrupts, I think that I might start to run into issues regarding my mana curve. Perhaps I'll add a bit more and see how that plays out. I'm curious as to why you dislike the stillmoon so much. He is solid against tokens, it slows down monored a little bit as they must burn him out, and dodges path to exile. I like those things, but of course I included him in my deck so I'm bias!
I want to stress how much I disagree with you regarding the usefulness of the scepter, by the way. Perhaps the matches where it has shined have been anomalies, but I've loved how it forced my opponent in to topdeck mode and doesn't allow them to have any tricks late-game.
Thank you so much! I'm going to try it out with your corrupt/demigod inclusions right now.
3 Wall of Bone
4 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Scepter of Fugue
4 Infest
4 Tendrils of Corruption
4 Doom Blade
4 Sign in Blood
4 Duress
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Liliana Vess
1 Drain Life
NOTES:
- Without multiple Tendrils of Corruption, this deck struggles against dedicated red/hastey ball lightning.dec. This is kind of a big deal, so I'm trying to find things to put in the sideboard to help me out here. Any ideas?
- Wall of Bone, although janky looking beyond all imagining, is a very cute inclusion. It dodges doom blade and survives lightning bolt, minimizes ball lightning damage and stops hellspark elemental, and also blocks bloodbraids and kitchen finks. It really shines against Bant as well.
- To shore up token matchups, Stillmoon Cavalier was included. Unfortunately, so was Infest. This is a horrible combination, so does anyone have any other ideas that could take the place of these slots that will still fulfill similar roles in this deck?
- Scepter of Fugue is amazing VS control. Absolutely amazing. It is what keeps this deck competitive in that matchup. It may be worth trying to mulligan into it in that matchup very aggressively. Even outside of that matchup however, I'm often pleased to draw it. It has outperformed my expectations.
What are your guys' thoughts on this build of mono black? I'm not the strongest deck builder, so any help is greatly appreciated.