The 4CMC creature debate (ie Desecration Demon vs Alms Beast, with Ember Swallower lurking in the shadows) seems to be raging on in a fairly unproductive fashion. First, I would like to present the idea that a 4CMC creature is not necessary. Each of the three creatures has certain narrow areas in which it shines, but none offer a broad way to advance our game plan. In many cases we are probably better off with another 2/3 CMC removal spell or a 5/6 CMC creature.
But supposing we do want a 4CMC creature, I'd like to talk about this guy:
Spark Trooper: A bigger, harder to control Warleader's Helix that benefits from Whip recursion (and Aurelia if you topdeck him late game). Most of the time he probably goes unblocked and its a 12 point life swing (or 6 and a dead walker). Whip brings him back for round 2. The big con obviously is instant speed removal. But removal works on Alms Beast and Desecration Demon too.
I know Spark Trooper feels weird, and the mana might be a little rough, but I've intrigued myself enough that I want to test it. Turn 5 is where we want to stabilize and gaining 6 life on turn 4 definitely helps us do that. Plays extremely well with Whip and Aurelia.
Stepping away from that debate, I'd also like to talk about Legion's Initiative. I know it has been mentioned earlier in the thread but not much was every really said about it. I've run it at a couple small tourney's at the LGS because the cards I wanted to run were in the mail. I liked it. Pros and Cons:
+It protects our guys. It costs RW to do so we can't bank on this, but its a nice ace up your sleeve when mana is plentiful.
+It makes our Boros Reckoner bigger than their Boros Reckoner. And for 1 mana to enable firststrike, we can survive blocking loxodon smiter.
+It puts BBV outside Mizzium Mortar's range. This can be big.
+If you have 6 mana you can whip a creature and then sac LI at end of turn for Obzedat like shenanigans.
+It turns our keyrune's into 4/1 first strikers.
+Let's Aurelia kill Archangel of Thune, survive Stormbreath Dragon.
(+If Spark Trooper ends up having any value, it can be used to recur him in a pinch. And adds an extra point of punch)
-It puts Reckoner INSIDE Elspeth's sweeper range.
There are a lot of people cutting a 2nd Whip from their deck. At times people have even posted lists with Haunted Plate Mail and Trading Post. I think Legion's Initiative should be considered for those utility slots.
My opponent and I knew in the First Strike step that two damage had to be marked onto the Aristocrat. We did not know when or how protection washed away that damage, and therefore whether or not he would have to mark it again in the Normal Step.
Is it correct to say that the damage is ASSIGNED by the Ooze but never MARKED on the Aristocrat because Protection PREVENTS it?
This came up in my FNM two nights ago, and I'm comfortable with the ruling given by the judge but I'd like a more detailed explanation. My opponent has a 3/3 Scavenging Ooze enchanted by Unflinching Courage and soulbonded to Silverblade Paladin. So in total its a 5/5 with Trample, Double Strike and Life Link. I have a Cartel Aristocrat and a creature to sac to it. My opponent attacks with the Ooze, I sacrifice for pro-green and block with my Aristocrat. How much damage do I take and how much life does my opponent gain? This was how the judge ruled:
1. Double Strike happens, Ooze assigns two damage to the Aristocrat and 3 to me. My opponent gains 3 life.
2. Regular Attack happens, Ooze again assigns two damage to the Aristocrat and 3 to me. My opponent gains 3 life.
Is this right? Can someone provide a little more detail regarding assigning damage to a protected target? Thanks in advance guys.
He used to plenty of play when BG Zombies and Jund Zombies were still decks. When they got outclassed by BTE decks, he disappeared simply for want of a home.
As has been already stated his best friend is Gravecrawler and when INN rotates out that piece of synergy disappears. But even so, he is a hell of a card, and I imagine he will see play again before he rotates out. Some of the best removal currently in the format is in his colors (Abrupt Decay, Putrefy and Doom Blade). He also plays well with Kalonian Hydra if that ever becomes a card. He also plays well with Deadbridge Chant and Immortal Servitude though those are somewhat stretches as to whether they themselves will ever be cards.
Second you are trying to fit too many ideas into one deck. Jace's Phantasm is Milgro so to speak. But the rest of the deck is control. Except that it has too many cards dedicated to Wincon and not enough to the control aspect of surviving long enough for your wincon to matter.
So decide what you are doing. If you are playing control/mill, then your alternate wincon should be two Consuming Aberrations and probably two Rogue's Passage. Thats it. No derping around with phantasm, artful dodge etc. Meanwhile you should understand that Aetherling is strictly better than this.
If you actually want to play mill/aggro then I have no idea what to tell you because that sounds like a terrible idea.
I've taken huge beatings that I've enjoyed (at least in the sense that I did not regret the way I just spent 20 minutes of my life, not in the sense that I liked losing) and I've taken huge beatings that have left me kind of furious. And its all based on the behavior of the other guy.
Case in point at my local M14 prerelease. I did two prerelease events going 2-1 in each. First event I lost to the guy 0-2 and he was smiling and friendly and just generally acknowledged that he had a bonkers sealed pull and he got really good draws in both his games. Which he did. Then we talked and joked about other stuff for 5 minutes and walked away. I enjoyed playing with this guy and look forward to playing him again.
In the next event I lost 1-2 in an extremely close match. The other guys deck was built around Archangel of Thune - the two games it came out he won, the one he didn't it lost. Whenever it came out he just spent whole game giggling about all the different synergies it had with his deck and all the great plays he was making with it. I won game two on the back of a common black 3/2 intimidate creature enchanted with Mark of the Vampire (another common). After that game he said something to the affect of "That Mark of the Vampire really saved you that game. I would've won if you didn't get that card out in time".
Golgari Charm and Curse of Death's Hold are both seeing play right now (mostly to combat lingering souls I suppose) and both ruin your day. And you wouldn't be so reliant on rootborn defenses if you ran fewer dorks and more lands. Like the other posters I'd be a lot happier running 23-24 lands and only 8 dorks. There's just too many ways for dork reliance to go wrong. Any sweeper ruins your life if you don't have Rootborn in hand with mana open. Terminus and Merciless Eviction ruin it regardless.
If this is all just a gimmick to feed Grove of the Guardian and/or Wayfaring Temple, again I say its not worth it.
Frankly it feels like you're trying to merge two different decks into one. Traditional GW ETB/Flash tricks and an offbeat weenies deck. Pick one or the other and go with it.
Also sideboarding Ratchet Bomb in a deck with 12 mana dorks and 20 lands is kind of hysterical.
Regarding your particular deck. You have too many win conditions and not enough ways to stabilize. You have 9 cards with CMC>=6. This is way too much. Finding the balance between cards that stabilize and cards that win is the key to playing control, and you almost always need fewer win conditions than you think you do as a new player.
Cut Avacyn and Reaper for 2x Aetherling. Aetherling is the best creature finisher for a control deck because it cannot be answered once it is resolved (obviously you have to leave mana open to protect it). Both Avacyn and Reaper can be hit by removal (Avacyn is indestructible but that does not protect from Exile nor from having her toughness reduced to 0 or less etc).
Sphinx's Revelation is the best card in your colors. If you can afford to play it then you must.
If you are having issues stabilizing against decks that hand out a lot of early damage (almost always decks with low average CMC), then you must put more cards into your deck that can be cast in these early turns.
Barter in Blood should not be in your deck at all, neither should Killing Wave, nor Rise of the Dark Realms. All are too expensive to cast. Good cards to consider in their stead:
Augur of Bolas:sturdy blocker and produces card advantage Snapcaster Mage:flash chump blocker and produces card advantage Lingering Souls:4 chump blockers and card advantage Azorius Charm: putting an attacker back on the opponents deck is an excellent tempo play Far/Away: Versatile spot removal Think Twice :card advantage Warped Physique:Good spot removal, assuming you've been able to maintain a decent hand size Detention Sphere:Good spot removal, occasional card advantage
http://magiccards.info/som/en/183.html
1/1/2011: A card, spell, or permanent is a Myr only if it has the subtype Myr, regardless of its name. For example, Myr Reservoir itself is not a Myr.
Types and names are different properties of a card. Myr Matrix is an Artifact and only an Artifact. Therefore this was illegal.
Most of the Standard discussion on this card has been oriented towards its playability in the current metagame, but it will only exist in that metagame for about 3 months right? So while complaints about it being too slow and having little immediate impact on the board are valid at the moment, perhaps they won't be for long. BTE excluded, the most powerful ETB effects are leaving the format soon (RA, Thragtusk, Snapcaster, Huntmaster, Hoof etc) along with many of the generally powerful cards without ETB (Geist, Olivia, Falkenrath, Griselbrand, Hellrider etc).
Combined with the loss of the Innistrad checklands, the format is going to slow down and decrease in power. Nothing is ever guaranteed of course, but I'd bet money on post rotation metagame being slower/weaker than it is now.
So at a minimum Garruk should be playable in midrange against the mirror and against control if nothing else. The card advantage alone is worth it in those scenarios. If one or two quality green fatties get printed in M14/Theros he could turn into a powerhouse very quickly.
This forum in general and this thread in particular contain too many instances of the word "is" and not nearly enough instances of the word "if".
Well you are talking about a 1UG and a 2WW, so these are aggro curve toppers with mutually tricky mana costs, and they are terrible as aggro curve toppers. So you aren't playing aggro. I wouldn't worry about labeling yourself control or midrange yet, but aggro is out.
First lets talk about how to build around the combo cards. Vorel wants you to have things with counters on them, Gideon wants you to have creatures. This screams Primordial Hydra and to a lesser extent Prime Speaker Zegana. Undying and Scavenge are interesting mechanics to consider but they tend to be BG instead of just G (interesting exceptions: Strangleroot Geist and Deadbridge Goliath).
Lets start with a shell of:
3x Vorel
3x Gideon
4x Hydra
2x Prime Speaker
Gideon and Hydra both represent wincons, Vorel accelerates both of the wincons, and Prime Speaker represents potential for massive card advantage as well as a very large and efficient body. To get best use out of Gideon and Vorel we really need more creatures. But where we go from there is up to you. You can go control and bring in a removal/dispel suite to protect the combo, or you can bring in more loosely synergistic threats and play midrange.
My guts tell me if you want to play control you should just be playing Aetherling and not derping around with this stuff, so midrange is probably where you will ultimately find your home. With the above shell you could probably throw in 4x Farseek, 4x Thragtusk, and some mana dorks (Arbor Elf, Gyre Sage, maybe both) and not be far from a decent starting place. Maybe Young Wolf and Strangleroot Geist as well. And then once you've got Tusk, Speaker and 8 undying you may as well have some Resto Angel.
There is an archetype dedicated to this that has been strong since the beginning of time and its called Control.
Divination is bad because its sorcery speed and you want to hold up mana (on their turn) to represent permission magic and instant speed removal.
The card you want to slam down after you run them out of cards and have stabilized is not a fish it's (without question, there is no arguing this) Aetherling.
This.
In more detail, while Aetherling is a slightly slower clock, it cannot be removed once it is resolved. Stormtide Leviathan can (Dreadbore, Tragic Slip, Ultimate Price, Putrefy, all see play and they all hit Stormtide. Not to mention sweepers, O-Rings, D-Spheres etc). When playing control your wincon has to win 99% of the games it resolves in. Stormtide will not do that, Aetherling will (provided you leave mana open to protect it).
Really, if you want to play this deck for fun at the kitchen table then rock on. If you are looking to play a competitive deck with a similar flavor, then check out Esper Control:
I'd ditch white in favor of consistency. Boros Elite is solid but not worth splashing for, likewise for 2x Boros Charm. Armed // Dangerous can provide double strike instead of Charm.
I'd ditch 2x Madcap Skills and 2x Alpha Authority for 4x Rancor. Landing the combo on the same creature is great but its not going to happen enough to be worth it. But in a deck like this Rancor is always going to be a stud.
Spire Tracer is bad, either Flinthoof Boar or Experiment One in his place. Or Stromkirk Noble.
Definitely needs Kessig Wolf Run. Not in love with 1x Signal the Clans or Domri Rade. Domri is interesting as a 3x or 4x, but 1x seems silly. Make Savageborn Hydra 4x if you can, hes by far your hardest hitter.
But supposing we do want a 4CMC creature, I'd like to talk about this guy:
Spark Trooper: A bigger, harder to control Warleader's Helix that benefits from Whip recursion (and Aurelia if you topdeck him late game). Most of the time he probably goes unblocked and its a 12 point life swing (or 6 and a dead walker). Whip brings him back for round 2. The big con obviously is instant speed removal. But removal works on Alms Beast and Desecration Demon too.
I know Spark Trooper feels weird, and the mana might be a little rough, but I've intrigued myself enough that I want to test it. Turn 5 is where we want to stabilize and gaining 6 life on turn 4 definitely helps us do that. Plays extremely well with Whip and Aurelia.
Stepping away from that debate, I'd also like to talk about Legion's Initiative. I know it has been mentioned earlier in the thread but not much was every really said about it. I've run it at a couple small tourney's at the LGS because the cards I wanted to run were in the mail. I liked it. Pros and Cons:
+It protects our guys. It costs RW to do so we can't bank on this, but its a nice ace up your sleeve when mana is plentiful.
+It makes our Boros Reckoner bigger than their Boros Reckoner. And for 1 mana to enable firststrike, we can survive blocking loxodon smiter.
+It puts BBV outside Mizzium Mortar's range. This can be big.
+If you have 6 mana you can whip a creature and then sac LI at end of turn for Obzedat like shenanigans.
+It turns our keyrune's into 4/1 first strikers.
+Let's Aurelia kill Archangel of Thune, survive Stormbreath Dragon.
(+If Spark Trooper ends up having any value, it can be used to recur him in a pinch. And adds an extra point of punch)
-It puts Reckoner INSIDE Elspeth's sweeper range.
There are a lot of people cutting a 2nd Whip from their deck. At times people have even posted lists with Haunted Plate Mail and Trading Post. I think Legion's Initiative should be considered for those utility slots.
Is it correct to say that the damage is ASSIGNED by the Ooze but never MARKED on the Aristocrat because Protection PREVENTS it?
1. Double Strike happens, Ooze assigns two damage to the Aristocrat and 3 to me. My opponent gains 3 life.
2. Regular Attack happens, Ooze again assigns two damage to the Aristocrat and 3 to me. My opponent gains 3 life.
Is this right? Can someone provide a little more detail regarding assigning damage to a protected target? Thanks in advance guys.
As has been already stated his best friend is Gravecrawler and when INN rotates out that piece of synergy disappears. But even so, he is a hell of a card, and I imagine he will see play again before he rotates out. Some of the best removal currently in the format is in his colors (Abrupt Decay, Putrefy and Doom Blade). He also plays well with Kalonian Hydra if that ever becomes a card. He also plays well with Deadbridge Chant and Immortal Servitude though those are somewhat stretches as to whether they themselves will ever be cards.
Second you are trying to fit too many ideas into one deck. Jace's Phantasm is Milgro so to speak. But the rest of the deck is control. Except that it has too many cards dedicated to Wincon and not enough to the control aspect of surviving long enough for your wincon to matter.
So decide what you are doing. If you are playing control/mill, then your alternate wincon should be two Consuming Aberrations and probably two Rogue's Passage. Thats it. No derping around with phantasm, artful dodge etc. Meanwhile you should understand that Aetherling is strictly better than this.
If you actually want to play mill/aggro then I have no idea what to tell you because that sounds like a terrible idea.
Case in point at my local M14 prerelease. I did two prerelease events going 2-1 in each. First event I lost to the guy 0-2 and he was smiling and friendly and just generally acknowledged that he had a bonkers sealed pull and he got really good draws in both his games. Which he did. Then we talked and joked about other stuff for 5 minutes and walked away. I enjoyed playing with this guy and look forward to playing him again.
In the next event I lost 1-2 in an extremely close match. The other guys deck was built around Archangel of Thune - the two games it came out he won, the one he didn't it lost. Whenever it came out he just spent whole game giggling about all the different synergies it had with his deck and all the great plays he was making with it. I won game two on the back of a common black 3/2 intimidate creature enchanted with Mark of the Vampire (another common). After that game he said something to the affect of "That Mark of the Vampire really saved you that game. I would've won if you didn't get that card out in time".
Be like the first guy.
If this is all just a gimmick to feed Grove of the Guardian and/or Wayfaring Temple, again I say its not worth it.
Frankly it feels like you're trying to merge two different decks into one. Traditional GW ETB/Flash tricks and an offbeat weenies deck. Pick one or the other and go with it.
Also sideboarding Ratchet Bomb in a deck with 12 mana dorks and 20 lands is kind of hysterical.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=515483
Regarding your particular deck. You have too many win conditions and not enough ways to stabilize. You have 9 cards with CMC>=6. This is way too much. Finding the balance between cards that stabilize and cards that win is the key to playing control, and you almost always need fewer win conditions than you think you do as a new player.
Cut Avacyn and Reaper for 2x Aetherling. Aetherling is the best creature finisher for a control deck because it cannot be answered once it is resolved (obviously you have to leave mana open to protect it). Both Avacyn and Reaper can be hit by removal (Avacyn is indestructible but that does not protect from Exile nor from having her toughness reduced to 0 or less etc).
Sphinx's Revelation is the best card in your colors. If you can afford to play it then you must.
If you are having issues stabilizing against decks that hand out a lot of early damage (almost always decks with low average CMC), then you must put more cards into your deck that can be cast in these early turns.
Barter in Blood should not be in your deck at all, neither should Killing Wave, nor Rise of the Dark Realms. All are too expensive to cast. Good cards to consider in their stead:
Augur of Bolas:sturdy blocker and produces card advantage
Snapcaster Mage:flash chump blocker and produces card advantage
Lingering Souls:4 chump blockers and card advantage
Azorius Charm: putting an attacker back on the opponents deck is an excellent tempo play
Far/Away: Versatile spot removal
Think Twice :card advantage
Warped Physique:Good spot removal, assuming you've been able to maintain a decent hand size
Detention Sphere:Good spot removal, occasional card advantage
Test with a few of these cards and see what you like. If you have a lot of time, this is all the UWB standard legal cards right now:
http://magiccards.info/query?q=c!wub+f%3Astandard&v=card&s=cname
1/1/2011: A card, spell, or permanent is a Myr only if it has the subtype Myr, regardless of its name. For example, Myr Reservoir itself is not a Myr.
Types and names are different properties of a card. Myr Matrix is an Artifact and only an Artifact. Therefore this was illegal.
Going infinite with Battlesphere in this way is also illegal:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/26014189/?pg=last
Combined with the loss of the Innistrad checklands, the format is going to slow down and decrease in power. Nothing is ever guaranteed of course, but I'd bet money on post rotation metagame being slower/weaker than it is now.
So at a minimum Garruk should be playable in midrange against the mirror and against control if nothing else. The card advantage alone is worth it in those scenarios. If one or two quality green fatties get printed in M14/Theros he could turn into a powerhouse very quickly.
This forum in general and this thread in particular contain too many instances of the word "is" and not nearly enough instances of the word "if".
First lets talk about how to build around the combo cards. Vorel wants you to have things with counters on them, Gideon wants you to have creatures. This screams Primordial Hydra and to a lesser extent Prime Speaker Zegana. Undying and Scavenge are interesting mechanics to consider but they tend to be BG instead of just G (interesting exceptions: Strangleroot Geist and Deadbridge Goliath).
Lets start with a shell of:
3x Vorel
3x Gideon
4x Hydra
2x Prime Speaker
Gideon and Hydra both represent wincons, Vorel accelerates both of the wincons, and Prime Speaker represents potential for massive card advantage as well as a very large and efficient body. To get best use out of Gideon and Vorel we really need more creatures. But where we go from there is up to you. You can go control and bring in a removal/dispel suite to protect the combo, or you can bring in more loosely synergistic threats and play midrange.
My guts tell me if you want to play control you should just be playing Aetherling and not derping around with this stuff, so midrange is probably where you will ultimately find your home. With the above shell you could probably throw in 4x Farseek, 4x Thragtusk, and some mana dorks (Arbor Elf, Gyre Sage, maybe both) and not be far from a decent starting place. Maybe Young Wolf and Strangleroot Geist as well. And then once you've got Tusk, Speaker and 8 undying you may as well have some Resto Angel.
Something like this maybe:
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Arbor Elf
3 Gyre Sage
4 Primordial Hydra
3 Vorel of the Hull Clade
3 Gideon, Champion of Justice
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
4 Thragtusk
3 Restoration Angel
This.
In more detail, while Aetherling is a slightly slower clock, it cannot be removed once it is resolved. Stormtide Leviathan can (Dreadbore, Tragic Slip, Ultimate Price, Putrefy, all see play and they all hit Stormtide. Not to mention sweepers, O-Rings, D-Spheres etc). When playing control your wincon has to win 99% of the games it resolves in. Stormtide will not do that, Aetherling will (provided you leave mana open to protect it).
Really, if you want to play this deck for fun at the kitchen table then rock on. If you are looking to play a competitive deck with a similar flavor, then check out Esper Control:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=515483
I'd ditch 2x Madcap Skills and 2x Alpha Authority for 4x Rancor. Landing the combo on the same creature is great but its not going to happen enough to be worth it. But in a deck like this Rancor is always going to be a stud.
Spire Tracer is bad, either Flinthoof Boar or Experiment One in his place. Or Stromkirk Noble.
Definitely needs Kessig Wolf Run. Not in love with 1x Signal the Clans or Domri Rade. Domri is interesting as a 3x or 4x, but 1x seems silly. Make Savageborn Hydra 4x if you can, hes by far your hardest hitter.
Thanks for the link, interesting read. I'm going to test it as well.