@Singletons: I was rocking 2 mindcensors for the longest time, but I wanted something a little stronger vs miracles hence the switch to mangara. I also agree with swordstotimeshares on his singleton philosophy. Unfortunately I didn't play a mangara all day, but mindcensor did come in against kudoltha forgemaster vs mud and stifled a land or 2 during the day.
@Sotl: I brought them in a few times. Sotl is a card that you can't reliably gauge because you can't tell if it's doing its job. I like bringing it in vs jace decks, but finding room is rough.
Thanks for the kind words. I got to give props to Andrew--he was just seriously starting to get into legacy and for someone who is mostly inexperienced, he played extraordinarily well. Funny sidenote, I beat him round 7, and after the match I gave him a few tips in sideboarding vs the mirror. Naturally, we met again in the top 4! Anyway, I was 1 of 2 who went into the top 8 undefeated during the swiss.
R1: Merefolk 2-1
G1: I get bskull and sofi online and it's too much for him to handle
SB: -3 thalia, -1 mindcensor, +2 council's judgment, +2 cataclysm, I think
G2: I play catch up the entire game doing my best to answer his threats. I almost stabilize with a wisp equipped jitte. He then plays phantasmal image which copies my wisp flicking away my blocker and swings for lethal.
G3: I revoke his vial and keep him off double blue. I keep making land drops and deploying threats while disrupting mana and take the game.
R2: Sneak Attack 2-0
G1: Revoker on sneak attack with Karakas up and mana denial wins it.
SB: -2 crusader, -4 sfm, -1 bskull, -1 jitte, +2 sotl, +2 canonist, +2 council's judgement, + 1 pithing needle, +1 e tutor
G2: He gets blood moon out stopping my karakas. I have needle on sneak attack and vial at 3 with wisp in hand. He shows and tells Emrakul, eot I vial in wisp flicking moon and bouncing back emrakul. I win shortly sfter.
R3: Shardless BUG 2-0
G1: I waste his sea and he can't find another land. A freebie!
SB: Having just seen underground sea and thoughtseize, I'm not sure what he's on. I bring in 2 council's judgement, and 2 rest in peace thinking he's probably on deathrite shaman (BUG deathblade) or worst case he's got snapcaster mage, maybe lingering souls (some type of stoneblade). I cut a few x/1 dudes
G2: I find out he's on shardless bug. He draws a bunch of cards but I get bskull and sofi and rip if memory serves.
R4: MUD 2-1
G1: He plays metalworker, I revoke it and start disrupting his lands and win.
SB: -4 mom, -2 crusader, +2 council's judgement, +1 pithing needle, +1 enlightened tutor, +2 cataclysm
G2: I unwisely keep a hand without an answer to metalworker, and get blown away by large robots.
G3: This was a grindfest, but I eventually get there with bskull and flyers.
R5: Rug Delver 2-1
G1: He never finds green mana, which causes me think that he's on UR delver. I take it.
SB: -2 revoker, -2 crusader (I think he's on UR), +2 RIP, +2 Council's Judgement
G2: He takes me down with young pyromancer and goyf while removing my guys.
SB: -2 revoker, +2 SOTL (Now that I know he's rug)
G3: I resolve a RIP and he has trouble finding any threats. I get there without much trouble.
R6: Deathblade 2-1
G1: This game was crazy. Towards the end he had TNN jitte and bskull equipped, while I had SFM jitte, bskull, and sofi equipped. My clock was faster and I manage to take it.
SB: -1 thalia, -1 jitte, -1 revoker, +2 council's judgement, +1 pithing needle
G2: He blows me out with TNN, jitte, Jace, Council's judgement, and Zealous Persecution.
G3: I win off some flyers and SOFI I think
R7: DNT 2-0
G1: I can't remember, but I take it home.
SB: -4 thalia, +2 council's judgement, +1 pithing needle, +1 enlightened tutor
G2: He fetches manriki gusari with mystic, but I manage to get jitte online before he suits it up.
R8: ID
R9: ID
Top 8
Quarterfinals: Deathblade 2-0 (Same as R6)
G1: I get there.
SB: See R6
G2: I'm forced to overextend into a potential zealous persecution, luckily after multiple brainstorms he still can't find it and I pull out the win.
Semifinals: DNT 2-0 (Same as R7)
G1: I get an unanswered mom out and take it.
SB: See R7
G2: Mull to 5, We both made some misplays. Luckily, he was forced to path his own mom to find a land. I peeled serious gas off the top and finished it off with a jitte equipped crusader.
Finals: Elves 0-2
G1: Opening 7 of thalia x 2, lands x 3, and 2 other irrelevants--Auto Mull. Opening 6 of 1 land, 2 stp, mom, SFM, maybe revoker, and an irrelevant. I figure this was probably better than a mull to 5 and if I can draw a land I could seriously take this one home. I don't find a land and he combos off t4.
SB: -1 mangara, -4 thalia, -3 flickerwisp, -1 batterskull, +2 ethersworn canonist, +2 SOTL, +1 E tutor, +2 Council's judgement, +1 pithing needle, +1 Graffdigger's Cage
G2: I keep an opening 7 of stp, revoker, needle, vial, and 3 lands. This was a long debated keep, but honestly his hand was perfect to beat almost any starting 7. I find a sofi which gives me a glimmer of hope, but his answers of thoughtseize and abrupt decay proved way too formidable. I brick on any gas, and he gets the NO for Hoof and promptly wins it.
I think councils judgement is fine vs rug. They are only running 12 creatures, it's a hedge against tnn, and it hits mongoose. You know they are boarding out some amount of counters to bring in rough tumbles, sulfur elementals, tnn, and artifact hate post board anyway. Most Dnt lists should have room cutting 4 revokers so what's the hesitation?
@redtwister: Facing Bant Stoneblade, I would bring in council's judgement and pithing needle for sure. The rest depends on what strategies they have. If they are packing Jaces, I'd be tempted to bring in SOTL possibly cutting a flier/crusader . I'd probably board out 1 Thalia, 1 jitte playing against a bant stoneblade list with TNN. Some newer lists are packing thopter/sword and shardless agent with no TNN, and others are traditional builds with KOTR and GSZ. All of these builds are quite susceptible to revoker and they don't have x/1 hate so I wouldn't touch him. The most common way to lose is vs TNN, so as default fetch your SOFI first.
Facing Grixis Delver, I would probably cut 1 Mangara, 2 revoker, 1 thalia for council's judgement, sotl, and RIP. Postboard they usually bring in grim lavamancer and most builds have deathrite shaman. Rip also helps against random goyf/tombstalker appearances (these builds are pretty varied so it depends on what you see g1).
@Medea: I also don't bother with revokers vs rug. I completely agree with trimming down parts of the SFM package. Jitte is one that I find I board out often.
@Everyone: So could you share exactly how you sb vs. bug delver and shardless bug(I would also love to see delver variants, miracles, and stoneblade variants too if you're in the typing mood)? Let's not dance around this topic anymore. I realize it's a good matchup, but Bug is 15% of the field. I would love to see card for card what you guys are doing. I'll call out some of the big wigs: swordstotimeshares, from cairo, barbed blightning, Finn. Let's do this right guys.
I'd like to gather some opinions on sideboarding and hopefully come to a consensus on what to bring in/out vs the tier decks. I think this is one area where a lot of us have very specific takes on what is useful or ineffective and could benefit the D&T community as a whole. I'll post my list as it's pretty stock and go on with how I typically sb from there.
Vs. Bug Delver: Ok, so this deck has all kinds of little variations that can alter your sb strategy. From what I gather, lists generally run Liliana or TNN and then hymn or stifle. The problem is that after g1, you may not know which build they're on. Typically I go -1 mindcensor, -1 mangara, -1 thalia, -2 revoker, +2 rip, +2 wilt-leaf, +1 council's judgement. Now here's where I'm sure there's some variation. If you don't see any Lilianas, then their only activated ability is deathrite shaman(most likely). In that case, I'm fine to drop the remaining 2 revokers and add the 2nd judgement and 1 spirit of the labyrinth. If you did see lilianas (meaning no TNN hopefully), then i'd probably keep in 2 revokers. My issue lies with SOTL. Do you guys typically bring in SOTL when you're opponent is just on brainstorm/ponder? Would you bring it is vs. bug delver at all?
Vs. Shardless Bug: This one is tricky. We have too many cards that look good. One thing to note about shardless is that they very rarely run TNN. I go: -1 thalia, -1 mindcensor, -1 mangara, -1 revoker, -3 flickerwisp, +2 rip, +2 wilt leaf, +2 SOTL, +1 pithing needle. They'll be boarding out fows and most likely hymns to bring in golgari charms, toxic deluges, and disfigures. I do my best to keep their x/1 hate in check. Thoughts?
Vs. Rug Delver: Out: 4 revoker. In: 2 council's judgement, 2 rip. I can argue points in siding out mindcensor and mangara for 2 wilt leafs, but I typically don't.
I'd like to see how you guys sb against the above matchups and maybe we can get some real value in deciding what's effective and what's not in a scg type meta.
@vote4jonny: Actually brimaz is a stalemate vs batterskull. A smart opponent will identify that you have karakas in play and just chump the token, netting 1 life. Or they may choose to take 1 and force you to hard cast or vial in your brimaz each turn. It makes for some awkward plays.
On lands: My rule of thumb is >= 6 legends, run 4 karakas. My utility lands are 2x horizon canopy. With wisp, avenger,and brimaz being ww and different creature types, I want to make sure I can cast them on non vial openers.
I went 1-2 drop at St. Louis. Started a new job on Monday, so I didn't feel like staying and grinding it out. My win was vs deathblade 2-0. I beat a jitte equipped tnn g2 just by overwhelming with flyers.
I lost 0-2 vs uwr delver (normally I do well here). He managed to get jitte and batterskull out while I was sitting on mom, mom, brimaz. I want to echo what another poster said about brimaz being awkward when swinging into opposing equips. Game 2, he got the jitte out on a flipped delver, and removed my revoker on jitte.
My final loss was vs rug delver 0-2 (really wasn't my day). He gold fished me g1 with delver goyf, goyf beats. My guys were just too small to matter. G2, my hand is vial, vial. Plains, wasteland, etc. I land a t1 vial then waste his land while playing a second vial. He then plays needle naming vial and I take way too long to find another land.
Mindcensor was really great vs deathblade. Brimaz was really bad every time it drew it. Will continue testing and get back with you guys.
For those of you testing Ensnaring Bridge, are you noticing any tension between needing to play out your hand but also wanting to play around Supreme verdict?
Maybe slightly. The important thing to remember is to keep a flyer in your hand, so if they do wipe, you just start over. Resolving a bridge transforms our strategy. Once resolved, I'm almost always on the bridge plan above all else.
Really, the mana instability argument is pretty lame. Most standard lists are running 9 plains, 14 nonbasics.
Hmm... hardly. Why is it, do you think, that other multi-color decks don't also play Rishadan Port with any regularity of winning, especially large tournaments? The holes of the mana base will eventually show themselves. If you go with a color splash, you are relegated to dropping Port if you want stability over playing 20+ games in a single day. Perhaps Shrout himself can shine some light here, but I'd be surprised if he didn't run into some mana coloring issues through the day. Obviously, we've seen him win without the splash, so it's not a result of him being a sub-par player in any way.
Having "good results" as people have mentioned with their black splash is over what, a few matches against the big name decks? Certainly a lot of that success didn't stem from RUG Delver, which, with a splash, would probably push the matchup into unfavorable territory for the first time ever.
It's either Deadguy Ale or it's Death and Taxes. There isn't a hybrid because DnT doesn't play Magic the way other decks do. Go ahead and re-read Ari Lax's quote on the primer. It's not a CA-engine deck, so the merit of including another color just for that and for cheaper TNN-hate is inevitably going to expose you somewhere else.
For TNN hate, Bridge does just fine. Someone mentioned earlier that Bridge is harder to resolve against the U/R/W Delver decks that also feature TNN. This is true -- if you're rushing it, which you shouldn't be. Those decks have manabases that are easier to disrupt, where TNN isn't as reliable to come down quickly as it is in a Blade deck. Even at that, it still plays the tempo strategy - and WITHOUT discard - meaning all you have to do is wait it out, and you should have a clear coast to resolve Bridge, no problem. Blade decks are usually less about cards-in-hand attrition, so I'd argue it's even easier to get Bridge down vs. Tempo since you know they will be out of gas eventually, especially after fighting you for board presence for the first 5-6 turns, tit-for-tat. Their only chance to win is to get ahead and win, quickly, as DnT is always drawing pure gas (besides land). Eventually you will land a body, then another, before they have a chance to respond to the last one.
EDIT: Also, it seems like no one has be reiterating the obvious: TNN itself is not a problem. The equipment attached to it is the problem. Zealous Persecution will do nothing to pull you out of a board state that has TNN equipped to a Jitte with counters on it. Ensnaring Bridge will. Disrupting the mana base for a "maybe" TNN-killer (and to be fair, a great card against Elves) is not enough of a reason to use over something that always stops TNN in its tracks.
Other multicolor decks don't run aether vial, so they wouldn't begin to run port. Your comparing apples to oranges. Goblin lists have been splashing white for thalia while keeping their ports. While I don't think goblins is particularly well positioned, that line of thought has value.
To say this list has to be dnt or deadguy is extremely shortsighted. I wouldn't call a black splash for bob and zp a hybrid build of deadguy/dnt. The deck is pretty straightforward dnt. The strategy is the same except you get dark confidant to give you more ammo and zp to give slightly more efficient answers to elves and TNN. I certainly agree that RUG Delver becomes more difficult and since it just won, it might come back in numbers. This version is just something I'm testing, nothing more. I acknowledge the weaknesses of the build, but I don't immediately dismiss it without doing the proper testing.
I really like bridge too, your suggestion is what caused me to give it a try and I haven't looked back. Currently, I only run it as a singleton in my usual mono w build. ZP vs Bridge is an interesting debate. ZP is probably better vs elves and the mirror. On the other hand, Bridge is more of a finite answer to TNN since most lists probably only pack 1 detention sphere or the like as an out to it (assuming they board out counterspells). One fringe scenario is that zp helps protect your guys from their zps, but I haven't ran into that yet. Would you consider running more than 1 bridge in the sb? Or is the need to combat TNN not that dire in your opinion?
Edit: @ mr.jumbo: Sorry, didn't notice your post. You're right that a virtual 8 basics is not the same. Testing will tell if the trade off is worth it.
Black splash is a bad idea. Back when this deck had insufficient good creatures in white, and we were forced to use filler cards like True Believer and Samurai of the Pale Curtain, there were plenty of us trying out colored versions of every combination. The short version of the end result is that it was not worth it. The deck can not profitably support more than one color along with the full complement of mana denial. These days there are so many excellent white creatures to choose from that we can't fit all of them. Whatever the benefits (there are always specific benefits) to splashing, the reduction in mana redundancy outweighs the benefits much more today.
But I would like to hear someone argue in favor of Spirit of the Lab in the main. He seemed to be pretty sanguine about it. I appreciated him coming out to tell us that the Open was his play testing ground.
Back in the day with samurai of pale curtain, there were no True-Name Nemesis, so I think it's completely unfair to compare your experiences with a black splash back then with one today. If you checked out my list, you'll notice that it didn't skimp on any of the mana denial resources. Really, the mana instability argument is pretty lame. Most standard lists are running 9 plains, 14 nonbasics. My black list runs 2 plains, 1 swamp (that should be a fetch), and 5 fetches. That's essentially 8 virtual basic lands. That's one less than the standard white list. Hell, I could easily take Barook's advice and cut a scrubland for another fetch. Sure, stifle can creep up on you, and it might since RUG Delver just pulled out a win, but that deck is on the decline. The difference is very minimal guys. I urge you to actually test the list, instead of hiding behind the century old instable manabase argument. Times are changing, folks.
@Adam w: The problem with people thinking about a black splash is that they want to turn the list into a hybrid of deadguy/dnt. They fall into the cuteness level of tidehollow sculler and friends and lose the elements that make Dnt good in the first place. A small black splash for bob and zp in the board does no such thing. Dnt's control elements are still largely intact except that you get bob and a better way to deal with elves/TNN.
Dark confidant is such a must answer, if he's out for 2+ turns, you get so far ahead that you just win. The manabase is less stable, but I haven't had any issues. I could see myself cutting the singleton swamp for another fetch really. The splash simply offers an alternate way to beat the tnn decks, while gaining a great boost in CA with bob. The difference in the standard lists is -2 mangara, -1 thalia, +3 dark confidant. So basically 3 x/1 humans for 3 x/1 humans. The realistic trade off is a slightly less stable manabase for more CA, and slightly more efficient sb choices.
Here's the mono white version I've been messing around with:
Holy light and Ensnaring Bridge are great answers to tnn while splash hating elves. I'm torn between what list I'll be bringing to St. Louis here in the next few weeks.
...you can ask your opponents how it affected them...?
Asking questions after a game or pointing out random errors (for yourself or for them in a respectful way) has always been a help imo. If you're talking about gaining a knowledge of your opp's mind state in given situations, while not helpful initially, the questions after can help you assess future situations.
This is unfortunately cockatrice. Most players don't stay in the game 30 seconds after you win. Also, it's asking a lot for an opponent to truthfully and objectively give you unbiased insight. D&T is not the funnest deck to play against. The pubs on cockatrice usually aren't very keen to help me after I wreck their lands.
Hey guys, I've been aggressively testing spirit and brimaz. So far all I've learned is that you can rarely tell if sol is disrupting your opponent. Naturally, if you resolve a sol they hold onto their cantrips (hidden in their hands). What I have noticed is that come g2 or g3, they are playing all their draw spells as fast as possible to play around sol. This could be good news for us since we're often the better mid-game deck.
Brimaz has been ok. He's been a wall a few times. His token ability is a bit weaker than I hoped. The token's life depends on the outcome of combat so it constantly receives the minimal 1 dmg to generate no substantial advantage on our end. One thing to note is that the ol block and bounce trick to fog jitte counters does not work with him since you must put a blocking spirit into play. So far, i've had him generate 2 tokens that survived the combat phase.
I'll be hopefully doing some extensive testing later on cockatrice. If anyone is interested in spectating, i'll post the list and the time that i'll be on. I'll make it to where spectators can chat and see everything, so you guys can fairly develop opinions.
4 Mom
4 SFM
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
3 Serra
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mindcensor
2 Mufasa/Lionidas/Kitty Kat King, KING OF THE KATZ
There are a ton of UWR decks running around in my meta, so the flying on the Mindcensor is often more relevant than Mangara. Otherwise, I'll be very sad to see crusader leave :/
I'm leaning towards the same conclusion. Mindcensor just helps too much vs our problem matchups.
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@Sotl: I brought them in a few times. Sotl is a card that you can't reliably gauge because you can't tell if it's doing its job. I like bringing it in vs jace decks, but finding room is rough.
Thanks for the kind words. I got to give props to Andrew--he was just seriously starting to get into legacy and for someone who is mostly inexperienced, he played extraordinarily well. Funny sidenote, I beat him round 7, and after the match I gave him a few tips in sideboarding vs the mirror. Naturally, we met again in the top 4! Anyway, I was 1 of 2 who went into the top 8 undefeated during the swiss.
My list for reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=72571
My matchups in order to the best of my memory:
R1: Merefolk 2-1
G1: I get bskull and sofi online and it's too much for him to handle
SB: -3 thalia, -1 mindcensor, +2 council's judgment, +2 cataclysm, I think
G2: I play catch up the entire game doing my best to answer his threats. I almost stabilize with a wisp equipped jitte. He then plays phantasmal image which copies my wisp flicking away my blocker and swings for lethal.
G3: I revoke his vial and keep him off double blue. I keep making land drops and deploying threats while disrupting mana and take the game.
R2: Sneak Attack 2-0
G1: Revoker on sneak attack with Karakas up and mana denial wins it.
SB: -2 crusader, -4 sfm, -1 bskull, -1 jitte, +2 sotl, +2 canonist, +2 council's judgement, + 1 pithing needle, +1 e tutor
G2: He gets blood moon out stopping my karakas. I have needle on sneak attack and vial at 3 with wisp in hand. He shows and tells Emrakul, eot I vial in wisp flicking moon and bouncing back emrakul. I win shortly sfter.
R3: Shardless BUG 2-0
G1: I waste his sea and he can't find another land. A freebie!
SB: Having just seen underground sea and thoughtseize, I'm not sure what he's on. I bring in 2 council's judgement, and 2 rest in peace thinking he's probably on deathrite shaman (BUG deathblade) or worst case he's got snapcaster mage, maybe lingering souls (some type of stoneblade). I cut a few x/1 dudes
G2: I find out he's on shardless bug. He draws a bunch of cards but I get bskull and sofi and rip if memory serves.
R4: MUD 2-1
G1: He plays metalworker, I revoke it and start disrupting his lands and win.
SB: -4 mom, -2 crusader, +2 council's judgement, +1 pithing needle, +1 enlightened tutor, +2 cataclysm
G2: I unwisely keep a hand without an answer to metalworker, and get blown away by large robots.
G3: This was a grindfest, but I eventually get there with bskull and flyers.
R5: Rug Delver 2-1
G1: He never finds green mana, which causes me think that he's on UR delver. I take it.
SB: -2 revoker, -2 crusader (I think he's on UR), +2 RIP, +2 Council's Judgement
G2: He takes me down with young pyromancer and goyf while removing my guys.
SB: -2 revoker, +2 SOTL (Now that I know he's rug)
G3: I resolve a RIP and he has trouble finding any threats. I get there without much trouble.
R6: Deathblade 2-1
G1: This game was crazy. Towards the end he had TNN jitte and bskull equipped, while I had SFM jitte, bskull, and sofi equipped. My clock was faster and I manage to take it.
SB: -1 thalia, -1 jitte, -1 revoker, +2 council's judgement, +1 pithing needle
G2: He blows me out with TNN, jitte, Jace, Council's judgement, and Zealous Persecution.
G3: I win off some flyers and SOFI I think
R7: DNT 2-0
G1: I can't remember, but I take it home.
SB: -4 thalia, +2 council's judgement, +1 pithing needle, +1 enlightened tutor
G2: He fetches manriki gusari with mystic, but I manage to get jitte online before he suits it up.
R8: ID
R9: ID
Top 8
Quarterfinals: Deathblade 2-0 (Same as R6)
G1: I get there.
SB: See R6
G2: I'm forced to overextend into a potential zealous persecution, luckily after multiple brainstorms he still can't find it and I pull out the win.
Semifinals: DNT 2-0 (Same as R7)
G1: I get an unanswered mom out and take it.
SB: See R7
G2: Mull to 5, We both made some misplays. Luckily, he was forced to path his own mom to find a land. I peeled serious gas off the top and finished it off with a jitte equipped crusader.
Finals: Elves 0-2
G1: Opening 7 of thalia x 2, lands x 3, and 2 other irrelevants--Auto Mull. Opening 6 of 1 land, 2 stp, mom, SFM, maybe revoker, and an irrelevant. I figure this was probably better than a mull to 5 and if I can draw a land I could seriously take this one home. I don't find a land and he combos off t4.
SB: -1 mangara, -4 thalia, -3 flickerwisp, -1 batterskull, +2 ethersworn canonist, +2 SOTL, +1 E tutor, +2 Council's judgement, +1 pithing needle, +1 Graffdigger's Cage
G2: I keep an opening 7 of stp, revoker, needle, vial, and 3 lands. This was a long debated keep, but honestly his hand was perfect to beat almost any starting 7. I find a sofi which gives me a glimmer of hope, but his answers of thoughtseize and abrupt decay proved way too formidable. I brick on any gas, and he gets the NO for Hoof and promptly wins it.
Facing Grixis Delver, I would probably cut 1 Mangara, 2 revoker, 1 thalia for council's judgement, sotl, and RIP. Postboard they usually bring in grim lavamancer and most builds have deathrite shaman. Rip also helps against random goyf/tombstalker appearances (these builds are pretty varied so it depends on what you see g1).
@Medea: I also don't bother with revokers vs rug. I completely agree with trimming down parts of the SFM package. Jitte is one that I find I board out often.
@Everyone: So could you share exactly how you sb vs. bug delver and shardless bug(I would also love to see delver variants, miracles, and stoneblade variants too if you're in the typing mood)? Let's not dance around this topic anymore. I realize it's a good matchup, but Bug is 15% of the field. I would love to see card for card what you guys are doing. I'll call out some of the big wigs: swordstotimeshares, from cairo, barbed blightning, Finn. Let's do this right guys.
Lands: 23
11 plains
3 karakas
1 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
Creatures: 26
4 mother of runes
4 thalia guardian of thraben
4 phyrexian revoker
4 stoneforge mystic
3 serra avenger
3 flickerwisp
2 mirran crusader
1 aven mindcensor
1 mangara of corrondor
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
2 ethersworn canonist
2 rest in peace
2 spirit of the labyrinth
2 wilt-leaf liege
2 cataclysm
2 council's judgement
1 pithing needle
1 graffdigger's cage
1 enlightened tutor
Vs. Bug Delver: Ok, so this deck has all kinds of little variations that can alter your sb strategy. From what I gather, lists generally run Liliana or TNN and then hymn or stifle. The problem is that after g1, you may not know which build they're on. Typically I go -1 mindcensor, -1 mangara, -1 thalia, -2 revoker, +2 rip, +2 wilt-leaf, +1 council's judgement. Now here's where I'm sure there's some variation. If you don't see any Lilianas, then their only activated ability is deathrite shaman(most likely). In that case, I'm fine to drop the remaining 2 revokers and add the 2nd judgement and 1 spirit of the labyrinth. If you did see lilianas (meaning no TNN hopefully), then i'd probably keep in 2 revokers. My issue lies with SOTL. Do you guys typically bring in SOTL when you're opponent is just on brainstorm/ponder? Would you bring it is vs. bug delver at all?
Vs. Shardless Bug: This one is tricky. We have too many cards that look good. One thing to note about shardless is that they very rarely run TNN. I go: -1 thalia, -1 mindcensor, -1 mangara, -1 revoker, -3 flickerwisp, +2 rip, +2 wilt leaf, +2 SOTL, +1 pithing needle. They'll be boarding out fows and most likely hymns to bring in golgari charms, toxic deluges, and disfigures. I do my best to keep their x/1 hate in check. Thoughts?
Vs. Rug Delver: Out: 4 revoker. In: 2 council's judgement, 2 rip. I can argue points in siding out mindcensor and mangara for 2 wilt leafs, but I typically don't.
Vs. Miracles: out: 4 stp, 1 jitte, 2 crusader. IN: +2 cataclysm, +1 pithing needle, +2 sotl, +2 council's judgement
Vs. Esper stoneblade: Out: 1 jitte, 1 thalia, 2 crusader, 1 stp In: 2 council's judgement, 2 Sotl, 1 Pithing Needle
Vs. Esper Deathblade: Out: 1 jitte, 1 thalia, 2 crusader, . In: 2 council's judgement, 1 Sotl, +1 pithing needle
Vs. Jund: out: 1 thalia, 1 mindcensor, 1 mangara, 2 revoker. In: 2 rip, 2 wilt leaf, 1 council's judgement
Vs. Patriot Delver: out: 1 thalia, 1 jitte, 2 crusader In: 2 council's judgement, 1 pithing needle, +1 sotl
I'd like to see how you guys sb against the above matchups and maybe we can get some real value in deciding what's effective and what's not in a scg type meta.
On lands: My rule of thumb is >= 6 legends, run 4 karakas. My utility lands are 2x horizon canopy. With wisp, avenger,and brimaz being ww and different creature types, I want to make sure I can cast them on non vial openers.
I lost 0-2 vs uwr delver (normally I do well here). He managed to get jitte and batterskull out while I was sitting on mom, mom, brimaz. I want to echo what another poster said about brimaz being awkward when swinging into opposing equips. Game 2, he got the jitte out on a flipped delver, and removed my revoker on jitte.
My final loss was vs rug delver 0-2 (really wasn't my day). He gold fished me g1 with delver goyf, goyf beats. My guys were just too small to matter. G2, my hand is vial, vial. Plains, wasteland, etc. I land a t1 vial then waste his land while playing a second vial. He then plays needle naming vial and I take way too long to find another land.
Mindcensor was really great vs deathblade. Brimaz was really bad every time it drew it. Will continue testing and get back with you guys.
Maybe slightly. The important thing to remember is to keep a flyer in your hand, so if they do wipe, you just start over. Resolving a bridge transforms our strategy. Once resolved, I'm almost always on the bridge plan above all else.
Other multicolor decks don't run aether vial, so they wouldn't begin to run port. Your comparing apples to oranges. Goblin lists have been splashing white for thalia while keeping their ports. While I don't think goblins is particularly well positioned, that line of thought has value.
To say this list has to be dnt or deadguy is extremely shortsighted. I wouldn't call a black splash for bob and zp a hybrid build of deadguy/dnt. The deck is pretty straightforward dnt. The strategy is the same except you get dark confidant to give you more ammo and zp to give slightly more efficient answers to elves and TNN. I certainly agree that RUG Delver becomes more difficult and since it just won, it might come back in numbers. This version is just something I'm testing, nothing more. I acknowledge the weaknesses of the build, but I don't immediately dismiss it without doing the proper testing.
I really like bridge too, your suggestion is what caused me to give it a try and I haven't looked back. Currently, I only run it as a singleton in my usual mono w build. ZP vs Bridge is an interesting debate. ZP is probably better vs elves and the mirror. On the other hand, Bridge is more of a finite answer to TNN since most lists probably only pack 1 detention sphere or the like as an out to it (assuming they board out counterspells). One fringe scenario is that zp helps protect your guys from their zps, but I haven't ran into that yet. Would you consider running more than 1 bridge in the sb? Or is the need to combat TNN not that dire in your opinion?
Edit: @ mr.jumbo: Sorry, didn't notice your post. You're right that a virtual 8 basics is not the same. Testing will tell if the trade off is worth it.
Back in the day with samurai of pale curtain, there were no True-Name Nemesis, so I think it's completely unfair to compare your experiences with a black splash back then with one today. If you checked out my list, you'll notice that it didn't skimp on any of the mana denial resources. Really, the mana instability argument is pretty lame. Most standard lists are running 9 plains, 14 nonbasics. My black list runs 2 plains, 1 swamp (that should be a fetch), and 5 fetches. That's essentially 8 virtual basic lands. That's one less than the standard white list. Hell, I could easily take Barook's advice and cut a scrubland for another fetch. Sure, stifle can creep up on you, and it might since RUG Delver just pulled out a win, but that deck is on the decline. The difference is very minimal guys. I urge you to actually test the list, instead of hiding behind the century old instable manabase argument. Times are changing, folks.
@Adam w: The problem with people thinking about a black splash is that they want to turn the list into a hybrid of deadguy/dnt. They fall into the cuteness level of tidehollow sculler and friends and lose the elements that make Dnt good in the first place. A small black splash for bob and zp in the board does no such thing. Dnt's control elements are still largely intact except that you get bob and a better way to deal with elves/TNN.
I've been doing some serious testing with a small black splash and it's been solid:
4 marsh flats
1 verdant catacombs
4 scrubland
2 plains
1 swamp
3 karakas
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
Creatures: 26
4 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 phyrexian revoker
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 dark confidant
3 serra avenger
3 flickerwisp
2 brimaz, king of oreskos
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
2 ethersworn canonist
3 rest in peace
1 oblivion ring
1 enlightened tutor
2 thoughtseize
3 zealous persecution
2 wilt-leaf liege
1 pithing needle
Dark confidant is such a must answer, if he's out for 2+ turns, you get so far ahead that you just win. The manabase is less stable, but I haven't had any issues. I could see myself cutting the singleton swamp for another fetch really. The splash simply offers an alternate way to beat the tnn decks, while gaining a great boost in CA with bob. The difference in the standard lists is -2 mangara, -1 thalia, +3 dark confidant. So basically 3 x/1 humans for 3 x/1 humans. The realistic trade off is a slightly less stable manabase for more CA, and slightly more efficient sb choices.
Here's the mono white version I've been messing around with:
4 karakas
9 plains
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
2 horizon canopy
Creatures: 26
4 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 phyrexian revoker
3 serra avenger
3 flickerwisp
2 mangara of corrondor
2 brimaz, king of oreskos
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
2 ethersworn canonist
3 rest in peace
1 graffdigger's cage
1 enlightened tutor
1 oblivion ring
1 ensnaring bridge
1 pithing needle
2 wilt-leaf liege
1 holy light
2 mindbreak trap
Holy light and Ensnaring Bridge are great answers to tnn while splash hating elves. I'm torn between what list I'll be bringing to St. Louis here in the next few weeks.
This is unfortunately cockatrice. Most players don't stay in the game 30 seconds after you win. Also, it's asking a lot for an opponent to truthfully and objectively give you unbiased insight. D&T is not the funnest deck to play against. The pubs on cockatrice usually aren't very keen to help me after I wreck their lands.
Brimaz has been ok. He's been a wall a few times. His token ability is a bit weaker than I hoped. The token's life depends on the outcome of combat so it constantly receives the minimal 1 dmg to generate no substantial advantage on our end. One thing to note is that the ol block and bounce trick to fog jitte counters does not work with him since you must put a blocking spirit into play. So far, i've had him generate 2 tokens that survived the combat phase.
I'll be hopefully doing some extensive testing later on cockatrice. If anyone is interested in spectating, i'll post the list and the time that i'll be on. I'll make it to where spectators can chat and see everything, so you guys can fairly develop opinions.
I'm leaning towards the same conclusion. Mindcensor just helps too much vs our problem matchups.