So another thing we have to look into are the variety of Delve enablers that we're using. Here is a list of all that come to mind, with the number of cards they dump to the grave in parentheses. I sorted them on playability based on my opinions.
Of course some of these options are pretty bad, though it would be pretty silly to tap your zombies to make more zombies with Phenax and Sidisi out.
Any suggestions on numbers we'd want? I'm thinking 14-16 feeders would be appropriate to make a little more room for finishers. Maybe something like this?
I really like this idea, and will try to work towards something similar. I'll do some work and report back. Though I do have a few immediate thoughts.
While Hornet Queen is a very strong choice, have you considered any other strong Whip targets? The two that come to mind are Meandering Towershell and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. The whip returns the turtle for good, as far as I can tell, as long as you are able to attack with it. Gary seems a bit of an odd fit in a 3 color deck, but he's still quite strong. Even with just him and the whip, you get an 8 point life swing.
My first thought when I saw Sidisi was to use her zombies to power Chord of Calling. There are enough green creatures in the deck that I think the triple green cost would be manageable. Good Whip targets also make for good Chord targets, though this may be moving into "win more" territory.
I liked the concept of the "shift" effect from Cloudshift and Restoration Angel, and wanted to find a way to effectively utilize these. Additionally, I have always loved the surprise value associated with Flash. With that in mind this is my attempt at a deck.
This setup has 15 creatures with Flash, and 15 creatures that benefit from shifts due to come into play effects. This deck is fun as is, but I am looking to improve it. The biggest concern is removal. Ambush Viper is alright, but I feel as though Defang should be replaced. Comments and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.
No card in magic is unplayable, should it be less likely to play? I wouldn't even say that because saying that is like saying "hey counterspell/cancell/etc is going to counter your spell anyway so no use playing it". The fact of the matter is that O-ring is going to remove the best permanant on the board and because of pridgemages and pulses it shouldn't be played as much but since we ALSO have threats that need to be answered at the same time (faster depending on the builds) then maybe the pulse, pridemage will have to be used on something else. Not ripping on anyone but just stating the response, with that said I feel that 2 rings and 2 purges MD would be good.
Exactly my feeling. I personally am a big fan of Oblivion Ring, even though it is not as good in the current meta as it used to be. Would you rather have the Pridemage kill your Behemoth Sledge? I wouldn't. Often times against Jund Control, I use the O-ring to take out the Dragon token, so Pulse doesn't save that anyway. Yes, I would agree that four is a bit much for the MD. I think I will test out 2/2 with the purges. Thanks for the suggestion.
Yes, Uril is good, but I stand by what I said before. Adding red to this deck just doesn't seem to offer enough in return for shaking up the mana base.
Has anyone else found it beneficial to now remove the main deck Celestial Purges and Valeron Outlanders? I know at least on MTGO, the meta has changed quite a bit as a result of Honolulu.
Also, has anyone else tried Qasali Ambusher in this deck? I appreciate him more and more as I continue playtesting with this deck. He does very well against Jund and Esper aggro, trading with Bloodbraid and the Blades, picking off some of the early 2/2 ground attackers of Esper, or slowing down a big Glaze Fiend. The fact that he is free, and never fails to surprise the opponent are a nice plus too...
Just a thought to everyone, does anyone else think that a red splash would make these decks that much better? We could then play cards like Bloodbraid Elf instead of Rhox Meditant which I just cant help thinking is a good idea.
I think that the reason that this deck was conceived was to avoid all the main deck anti-Jund tech that has been popular. This deck has a great advantage in game one against the decks with main deck Celestial Purge, Vedalken Outlander, etc. Adding red would take that away. And of course, splashing a third color hurts the consistancy of this deck a bit.
One thing I noticed just now is that one build runs no elspeth's (not including sb) and the other runs four mainboard. What do you guys think about this? Is elspeth really as good with ARB added in the mix? Or does it just not get there?
I personally like Elspeth in this deck. She is not as much of a game breaker as she used to be, but the tokens do a very good job of chump blocking. Elspeth also does an excellent job of absorbing damage that would otherwise be aimed at your head or taking on a Maelstrom Pulse that would otherwise have taken out a creature or two. Of course, giving Thornling or any other creature +3/+3 and flying is never a bad thing either. The -8 is almost unreachable, but when it does happen, it is a nice surprise.
Four seems like too many to me. I have been testing two to three in the main deck. I think I am leaning towards three.
Interesting build... I am a little surprised by the Rhox Meditants... but I guess they do a good job of blocking against Bloodbraid Elf and the Blades. 4x Ranger of Eos are a little excessive I would say, when there are only the Noble Heirarch's to retrieve with them.
4x Valeron Outlander and 4x Celestial Purge in the main deck gives you an idea of what the meta looked like... I personally have been experimenting with GW, and have found that main deck Dauntless Escort is very good at eating Jund's removal. Also, although it seems like it isn't all that great of a card, Mycoid Shepherd is very good against jund's removal... he demands to be answered, and even after answered grants life. This is my current decklist:
It is less rampy and more mid-range I guess, but it has been doing very well. It beats most non-Jund decks with relative ease, does very well against Jund Aggro, but I tend to have a harder time with Jund Control. I will have to get my hands on some Thornlings, and I will do some testing with a more ramp-oriented build.
Here's a good idea: Ban Bloodbraid Elf. That way, we all go back to playing Naya, Jund, Bant, Esper, 5cc.
It's not that Bloodbraid Elf is even that great... I mean, there are so many answers for it... The reason these Jund decks are so dominant are due to the card advantage generated from all Cascade effects and the strength of removal in Jund colors. The other creatures aren't half-bad themselves... But yea, I don't play any deck that uses Bloodbraid Elf, but I sure hope that they don't ban it... it's not dominant enough of a card to be banned, imo.
By adding white, it seems as though you are taking away some of the speed that this deck is built on and replacing it with elements of control. While I see this as being viable, and have actually tried a similar concept deck myself (with some success), I feel as though by leaving this deck at half speed and half control, you are crippling yourself more than helping yourself.
My biggest problem with my wRB deck was the mana base. The success of two colored decks is the reliability in their mana bases. Adding the double W from the Battlegrace may be a little rough... I don't see that as being a consistant turn 5 drop in this deck.
In all, I do like a splash of white for Ajani, Ring, PtE, and sideboard Celestial Purge... But I still am not too set on slowing this deck down and messing with a solid mana base.
Dispeller's Capsule is almost never a dead card anyway... I mean, there are quite a few Oblivion Rings going around out there. It is quite useful against another Esper deck as well. I only really see it being dead against 5cc and maybe Jund... but as stated, it serves another purpose anyway...
Ked Levi puts creatures back in their hand to steal next turn though and also clears the board. It may be a consideration.
If you could unearth as an instant, think how much fun doing this to people would be...
So that pretty much sums up why you want the Angel over Inky... My memory seems to be stuck on the good old Onslaught era W/U control... <3 Exalted Angel... But this deck is obviously different, so I guess I have to accept the differences... That deck had greater options at control than this deck (Being Standard helps a little...), so it didn't need to rely on its creatures to provide further control. The Angel just adds that last layer of defense needed for this deck to survive against those fast aggro decks... The fact that it puts them on a clock is never a bad thing either.
Has anyone considered excluding a "finisher" from the list? I mean... you can always make use of your opponent's creatures to seal your victory. Yes, there creatures are open to removal, but they should still do some damage to your opponent.
Just a thought... if there is something worth including in those two slots (I like the Ked Lev actually... definately worth looking into).
Thanks again for the discussion. Has anyone else considered sleeving this up?
I can't wait until they release Conflux on MTGO, and this deck is one of the reasons. It seems like a lot of fun, and I will certainly give it a shot as soon as I can get it together.
As for the whole black splashy thing: I would have to agree with baxter on this one. Yes, Countersquall is a very good card, and there are other decent cards that could make the list if black were included. That being said, I don't think Countersquall is worth splashing black for. Mana fixing is of course very nice in ALA block, but keeping this deck (effectively) two colors gives this deck a distinctive edge versus other control decks in the format: speed. People are so concerned with the matchup against 5cc, but if this deck plays first, you are pretty much at a 2 mana advantage with all the CiP tapped lands they run. That being said, I don't think this would be a bad matchup at all.
The bigger concern should be the speed of aggro/ww/rdw or whatever else shows up in the metagame. The stability of the manabase is what ensures that removal will be available to deal with the quick threats as early as possible. When on turn three, your opponent drops his Rafiq and is attacking with a 5/5 Aven Squire (yea, so what if it is a god hand?), that would be a good time to do react... As far as control decks in this format are concerned, this deck offers the speed necessary to remain competitive against these fast decks. Adding black and destabilizing the mana base would slow this deck down, and take away the edge that this deck needs to be successful...
Anyway, keep up the good work baxter...
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Every turn:
- Sidisi, Brood Tyrant (3)
- Sultai Ascendancy (0-2)
- Nyx Weaver (2)
- Grindclock (some)
- Jace, the Living Guildpact (1)
- Dakra Mystic (1)
- Phenax, God of Deception (many)
Upon playing:Of course some of these options are pretty bad, though it would be pretty silly to tap your zombies to make more zombies with Phenax and Sidisi out.
Any suggestions on numbers we'd want? I'm thinking 14-16 feeders would be appropriate to make a little more room for finishers. Maybe something like this?
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2 Sultai Ascendancy
2 Nyx Weaver
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Commune With the Gods
You can't hit yourself with Mind Sculpt, unfortunately.
While Hornet Queen is a very strong choice, have you considered any other strong Whip targets? The two that come to mind are Meandering Towershell and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. The whip returns the turtle for good, as far as I can tell, as long as you are able to attack with it. Gary seems a bit of an odd fit in a 3 color deck, but he's still quite strong. Even with just him and the whip, you get an 8 point life swing.
My first thought when I saw Sidisi was to use her zombies to power Chord of Calling. There are enough green creatures in the deck that I think the triple green cost would be manageable. Good Whip targets also make for good Chord targets, though this may be moving into "win more" territory.
4 Ambush Viper
4 Wolfir Avenger
3 Hollowhenge Spirit
4 Restoration Angel
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Cathedral Sanctifier
4 Borderland Ranger
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cloudshift
4 Defang
Lands (23):
12 Forest
11 Plains
I liked the concept of the "shift" effect from Cloudshift and Restoration Angel, and wanted to find a way to effectively utilize these. Additionally, I have always loved the surprise value associated with Flash. With that in mind this is my attempt at a deck.
This setup has 15 creatures with Flash, and 15 creatures that benefit from shifts due to come into play effects. This deck is fun as is, but I am looking to improve it. The biggest concern is removal. Ambush Viper is alright, but I feel as though Defang should be replaced. Comments and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.
Exactly my feeling. I personally am a big fan of Oblivion Ring, even though it is not as good in the current meta as it used to be. Would you rather have the Pridemage kill your Behemoth Sledge? I wouldn't. Often times against Jund Control, I use the O-ring to take out the Dragon token, so Pulse doesn't save that anyway. Yes, I would agree that four is a bit much for the MD. I think I will test out 2/2 with the purges. Thanks for the suggestion.
Has anyone else found it beneficial to now remove the main deck Celestial Purges and Valeron Outlanders? I know at least on MTGO, the meta has changed quite a bit as a result of Honolulu.
Also, has anyone else tried Qasali Ambusher in this deck? I appreciate him more and more as I continue playtesting with this deck. He does very well against Jund and Esper aggro, trading with Bloodbraid and the Blades, picking off some of the early 2/2 ground attackers of Esper, or slowing down a big Glaze Fiend. The fact that he is free, and never fails to surprise the opponent are a nice plus too...
Here is an updated version of my list:
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Qasali Ambusher
4x Dauntless Escort
2x Mycoid Shepherd
3x Battlegrace Angel
2x Thornling
4x Oblivion Ring
1x Martial Coup
2x Behemoth Sledge
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Seaside Citadel
10x Plains
10x Forest
4x Valeron Outlander
2x Mycoid Shepherd
1x Battlegrace Angel
2x Thornling
4x Celestial Purge
1x Martial Coup
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
I think that the reason that this deck was conceived was to avoid all the main deck anti-Jund tech that has been popular. This deck has a great advantage in game one against the decks with main deck Celestial Purge, Vedalken Outlander, etc. Adding red would take that away. And of course, splashing a third color hurts the consistancy of this deck a bit.
I personally like Elspeth in this deck. She is not as much of a game breaker as she used to be, but the tokens do a very good job of chump blocking. Elspeth also does an excellent job of absorbing damage that would otherwise be aimed at your head or taking on a Maelstrom Pulse that would otherwise have taken out a creature or two. Of course, giving Thornling or any other creature +3/+3 and flying is never a bad thing either. The -8 is almost unreachable, but when it does happen, it is a nice surprise.
Four seems like too many to me. I have been testing two to three in the main deck. I think I am leaning towards three.
Interesting build... I am a little surprised by the Rhox Meditants... but I guess they do a good job of blocking against Bloodbraid Elf and the Blades. 4x Ranger of Eos are a little excessive I would say, when there are only the Noble Heirarch's to retrieve with them.
4x Valeron Outlander and 4x Celestial Purge in the main deck gives you an idea of what the meta looked like... I personally have been experimenting with GW, and have found that main deck Dauntless Escort is very good at eating Jund's removal. Also, although it seems like it isn't all that great of a card, Mycoid Shepherd is very good against jund's removal... he demands to be answered, and even after answered grants life. This is my current decklist:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dauntless Escort
3 Qasali Ambusher
3 Mycoid Shepherd
3 Battlegrace Angel
Removal (12):
4 Path to Exile
2 Celestial Purge
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Martial Coup
1 Behemoth Sledge
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lands (24):
3 Jungle Shrine
11 Plains
10 Forest
4 Valeron Outlander
1 Qasali Ambusher
1 Mycoid Shepherd
1 Battlegrace Angel
2 Celestial Purge
3 Captured Sunlight
1 Behemoth Sledge
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
It's not that Bloodbraid Elf is even that great... I mean, there are so many answers for it... The reason these Jund decks are so dominant are due to the card advantage generated from all Cascade effects and the strength of removal in Jund colors. The other creatures aren't half-bad themselves... But yea, I don't play any deck that uses Bloodbraid Elf, but I sure hope that they don't ban it... it's not dominant enough of a card to be banned, imo.
By adding white, it seems as though you are taking away some of the speed that this deck is built on and replacing it with elements of control. While I see this as being viable, and have actually tried a similar concept deck myself (with some success), I feel as though by leaving this deck at half speed and half control, you are crippling yourself more than helping yourself.
My biggest problem with my wRB deck was the mana base. The success of two colored decks is the reliability in their mana bases. Adding the double W from the Battlegrace may be a little rough... I don't see that as being a consistant turn 5 drop in this deck.
In all, I do like a splash of white for Ajani, Ring, PtE, and sideboard Celestial Purge... But I still am not too set on slowing this deck down and messing with a solid mana base.
If you could unearth as an instant, think how much fun doing this to people would be...
So that pretty much sums up why you want the Angel over Inky... My memory seems to be stuck on the good old Onslaught era W/U control... <3 Exalted Angel... But this deck is obviously different, so I guess I have to accept the differences... That deck had greater options at control than this deck (Being Standard helps a little...), so it didn't need to rely on its creatures to provide further control. The Angel just adds that last layer of defense needed for this deck to survive against those fast aggro decks... The fact that it puts them on a clock is never a bad thing either.
Just a thought... if there is something worth including in those two slots (I like the Ked Lev actually... definately worth looking into).
I can't wait until they release Conflux on MTGO, and this deck is one of the reasons. It seems like a lot of fun, and I will certainly give it a shot as soon as I can get it together.
As for the whole black splashy thing: I would have to agree with baxter on this one. Yes, Countersquall is a very good card, and there are other decent cards that could make the list if black were included. That being said, I don't think Countersquall is worth splashing black for. Mana fixing is of course very nice in ALA block, but keeping this deck (effectively) two colors gives this deck a distinctive edge versus other control decks in the format: speed. People are so concerned with the matchup against 5cc, but if this deck plays first, you are pretty much at a 2 mana advantage with all the CiP tapped lands they run. That being said, I don't think this would be a bad matchup at all.
The bigger concern should be the speed of aggro/ww/rdw or whatever else shows up in the metagame. The stability of the manabase is what ensures that removal will be available to deal with the quick threats as early as possible. When on turn three, your opponent drops his Rafiq and is attacking with a 5/5 Aven Squire (yea, so what if it is a god hand?), that would be a good time to do react... As far as control decks in this format are concerned, this deck offers the speed necessary to remain competitive against these fast decks. Adding black and destabilizing the mana base would slow this deck down, and take away the edge that this deck needs to be successful...
Anyway, keep up the good work baxter...