Good to have you back degausser! I was worried that you had given up on the deck, or worse, since you had yet to post anything since I arrived.
Desecration Demon
I'm won over. Golgari is just too big a deal to play 2 Desecration Demons and 4 Deadbridge Goliaths. I will reverse the numbers from now on, and hope I don't regret it. Rakdos is becoming more and more unpopular, and while I prefer Goliath against Selesneya, that's by a razor-thin margin.
Dreg Mangler
I've never truly considered cutting this from the maindeck, but always side out all four against Golgari and Selesneya. This is because a Trained Armodon with benefits is far better against aggressive decks than a Auger Spree is against Control. And while Auger Spree is quite good against Golgari, since it allows you to kill a Lotleth Troll with regen mana up, Dread Mangler is insane against Control decks. Especially those without Loxodon Smiter.
Rakdos Keyrune
Things is, in a perfect world, I'd rather make every land drop instead of using an entire turn to play a card that doesn't immediately affect the board. While I naturally agree that Rakdos Keyrune is an excellent card, I play three in my 75 after all, I'm afraid of the awkward situations where I'm just developing my mana, rather than putting pressure on my opponent, or fending off his creatures. I get in the awkward spots at times with three Keyrunes post-board against Bant, and therefore prefer to run the 26th land over the fourth Keyrune. Detention Sphere is also a card, though naturally not that big of a deal for Jund as it is for other decks running Keyrunes.
Underworld Connections
I really don't think three Underworld Connections is too many. While I rarely side in the fourth, for the most part just against non-Bant Control, I also rarely side any out. It keeps the threats and answers running, which is something you simply can't rely on doing without any card draw.
Auger Spree
While it's the only card that reliably deals with Troll, there are others that do a decent job too. Mostly fatties really. I'd rather run Spree main than Mizzium Mortars, but I'd rather run more fatties main than Spree. That's just me though
@awjustaguy
Sorry about that, I for some reason thought that Rakdos's Return should have been listed under "Other", and just missed it in the "Spells" section. Brainfart!
I'd like to emphasize that I don't think Bant Control is an easy matchup; it most certainly is the hardest of the Control-matchups. Not that that changes my opinion on running Necropolis Regent as a finisher instead of Carnival Hellsteed, and running the entire playset while you're at it. It's a 6-drop that can't block any of the other finishers, while having no form of card-advantage attached and no natural protection apart from being big. It seems I can't get you to change your mind on this matter, but that won't stop me from trying
Went 4-0 in two more DEs, putting me at a 12-0 streak. One could say I'm fairly pleased with the deck at this point
Well, I was back for a whopping hour and a half to write that post and review my list on MTGO but have been ridiculously busy ever since. School plus internship (and having major projects in both) has kept me busy but I'm finally finished with most of that so I'M BACK!
Ok I'm back to being caught up on current lists and such and will be running your most current list in a couple of DEs tonight. Although I'm going to cut a land in favor of another Rakdos Keyrune because, like you all have been talking about, it helps you play around Supreme Verdict. Troll plus Keyrune plus any 4 mana threat makes it so their Verdict is only 1 for 1ing you and keeps a good amount of pressure on the board. While multiple Keyrunes can still be stopped by Detention Sphere, you have Abrupt Decay for that whose only other targets are opposing Keyrunes. We'll see.
Anyways, off for lunch and a meeting but plan on doing probably 3 dailies total tonight, although not until later this evening.
Hey, been out of town for the past week and just got home. I'll be back to doing dailies tomorrow evening and will try out Goliat's list for sure.
@Goliat -
For the most part I like your list.
I was skeptical of Desecration Demon at first too but it just hits so hard, and is so big, that if they don't have a removal spell for it immediately you can kill them quickly/shut down their offense. I think, while it definitely has downsides, it is actually a very solid card.
The one creature I'm skeptical of is Dreg Mangler. How has he been for you? He's always been mediocre for me and I was thinking of cutting him for more removal. I mean he's never really completely dead in any match up (blocks in creature match ups, haste attacker in control match ups), but he just always seems just ok. However, while I've been away this Golgari deck has become a real thing and I'm not sure if maybe you just need him in the deck.
Also, I think that Rakdos Keyrune is amazing and could never see going less than 3 (and serious reasoning for going under 4). It's an awesome threat against control, let's you play your spells on curve while leaving up Lotleth Troll regen or Syncopate for 1 protection, ramps to Vraska the Unseen and Rakdos's Return, and many more things. Also, it helps with mana screw which, may seem obvious, but being 3 mana and getting us to 4 is very important since all of our major threats are at 4 and without Keyrune it's almost impossible to justify keeping 2 landers for that reason (although I still mulligan most 2 land hands even with Keyrune). I'd just like to hear your thoughts on having only 2.
Ok, everyone keeps telling me to play Deathrite Shaman so I'll buy a couple and try them out. I think 2 is the right number for something of that effect, so I'll start there. I was getting desperate for life gain and even tried Rakdos Ragemutt in the board (which wasn't as awful as you might think, although still sad).
Is 3 Underworld Connections too many? My latest (non-Dreg Mangler) list moved up to 2 copies main deck but I was always scared I'd draw them against Rakdos aggro and just die. I'm sure with access to some man deck life gain it's a lot easier to have multiples out at once though. Still, 3 seems like too many.
I run 25 lands and I'm fine with it, but I also run 4 Keyrunes so I can operate on less lands than you maybe? I will say that I'd rather be flooded than mana screwed, however I think 25 lands is enough.
Like I said, before I left for my trip there was no Golgari deck and the meta was basically GW, Rakdos and various UWx control decks. While the Rakdos match up was rocky, and multiple Armada Wurms were tough to beat, I felt that the deck was very well positioned in the format. If Golgari is as tough as you say then some changes definitely need to be made (i.e. some amount of main deck Auger Sprees). I'd like to hear more about this match up and what you feel the key cards are in it.
Anyways, like I said I'll be starting up dailies again tomorrow evening starting with Goliat's list and let you know how it goes. Glad this thread is finally getting some action and respect! Look forward to hearing from you all. Feel free to message me on MTGO also, same username.
I put together this deck with a few changes, but one I don't see mentioned is Deathrite Shaman. What are you thoughts on adding that?
I really don't see what this card would be doing in the deck. Scavenge is the only thing this disrupts and I haven't seen a ton of that being used. Other than that it's just a shock every turn that lets Control 2 for 1 you with their Supreme Verdicts and Aggro mostly ignores. Why do you think he'd be good in the deck? The only threats I want to run in the deck need to be hard to remove and win the game in short order, and this fulfills neither of these qualities. Still, I'd like to hear your take on it, as well as the rest of the deck.
As an aside, does anyone know why only some dailies show up on the What's Happening page on Wizards.com? I've 4-0'd/3-1'd 7 out of my last 9 dailies and yet haven't seen my name up there. Just wondering.
TheBlaqDove: That's definitely a more aggressive version of the deck. Why did you go Jund colors when you could have stayed Rakdos and had a more consistent mana base? Do you not think that the Guildgates will slow you down too much? There are plenty of games with my deck that my first play isn't until turn 3 because of all the tapped lands, but mine is designed for the late game so that isn't a problem. Just wondering how you came up with the list.
Split the finals tonight to go 3-1 in the daily. We played it out anyways after the trade and I easily 2-0'd him, so maybe that wasn't such a good idea. Oh well.
I'm really, really liking this list. So far I'm 12-4 in tournament matches (4 Dailies), which is pretty sweet. It seems to have good match ups across the board, even if Rakdos Aggro is a bit iffy. We totally annihilate the Control decks and have a pretty decent game vs Selesnya if they don't draw Armada Wurm, but can still win if they do.
I've been really underwhelmed with Dreg Mangler so far, but not sure what could replace him. We could go up to 4 Mizzium Mortars and 3 Abrupt Decay main, and maybe add another Underworld Connections since it's good vs anything not-Rakdos. Not sure yet, might try that out.
EDIT: 3-1'd again. I misplayed Round 3 horribly, which isn't the deck's fault and think I had a shot at a 4-0. Beat the mirror in Round 4 which means we both had shots at going 3-1 which is encouraging. His build was more controlling with his only kill conditions being Desecration Demon and Vraska the Unseen's Ultimate. He also had 4 Rakdos's Return main deck and Slaughter Games. Anyways, again thought the deck was very solid. As much crap as I talked about Dreg Mangler he helped me in a few games this Daily, so maybe he's not too bad. Meh, probably still is. Up to 15-5 in tournament matches so far which is pretty good, still looking for an actual 4-0 though.
So, no one seems to be interested in this deck anymore but I just 3-1'd a Daily Event with it. I was 3-0 vs the UWx control decks but was pretty quickly dispatched by Rakdos aggro.
The control decks are ridiculously easy now that I went up to 3 Rakdos's Return main deck. Basically the first turn they tap out you win the game. After that just play 1 threat at a time and you eventually get there.
Rakdos however is very challenging. The problem is that even when you stabilize there's no good life gain in the format so you just eventually die. I'm so desperate for life gain I may put some Stonefare Crocodiles in the board or splash for Heroes' Reunion.
I bought the cards earlier today so haven't gotten a ton of games in yet (on MTGO anyways, I've played a ton on MWS) but I played 5 matches prior to the DE and went 5-0 very easily. You just have some very solid and hard to deal with threats backed up with tons of removal and Rakdos's Return so you're favored in the basically every stage of the game.
Anyways, don't know if anyone cares but thought I'd give an update here. Updated the OP with my current list.
Basically, I agree with you on this. UWx seems to be the deck to beat in Block at the moment and for the foreseeable future. More specifically UWG but I could also see UWR making a showing if the meta develops along lines that allow it but it seems the more "vulnerable" of the two to hate.
Here's why for those wondering. UWx runs along the same lines as traditional control decks, it has the things in block any control deck needs to survive: Life gain with Centaur Healer/Sphinx's Revelation, to get out of the "reachable" range of any burn. Board stabilizing effects in Jace and Supreme Verdict to put a stop to incoming damage early on when it matters. Card draw to dig for answers and stay ahead when the game goes long with Jace and Sphinx's Revelation. And finally big finishers that are hard to answer like Angel of Serenity and Armada Wurm. It even has access to 3 pretty decent counterspells; Syncopate, Cancel and Counterflux to put them ahead against any other control deck.
Add to this the fact that aggro, the traditional enemy of control is missing some big pieces of their toolkit. Most notably a lack of good 1 and 2 drops as well as some substantial "reach" cards, such as strong equipment and burn and you have a meta where a control deck (especially with a strong walker like Jace on its side) can thrive.
There may be a few other decks that crop up in the meta in the long term but I haven't seen or found anything that has a really favorable win percentage against the current Bant lists. Maybe I'm wrong and there will be. I honestly hope that's the case because right now this is looking like a 1-2 maybe 3 deck format at most.
Perfectly stated. I think the only thing that will keep these decks in check are nut draws from Rakdos players and the price of the deck (280-350 depending on the version).
I've been watching all of the replays from the dailies and one thing that seems interesting is that UWR has a big edge in the mirror because Counterflux cannot be countered. In the UWx mirrors without red whoever resolves Jace, Architect of Thought , or a Sphinx's Revelation pretty much wins so there's usually a counter war over one of those 2 cards, but against UWR they can always stop their opponents spells or make sure that theirs resolves. I Initially started the format with UWR in mind but liked the idea of ramping to Angel of Serenity quickly and consistently to stop the aggro decks, but if the meta turns to control mirrors then maybe UWR is the way to go.
I don't understand this reasoning, why do you think this? UW isn't bad and it will be competitive, but I don't see any deck pulling ahead by a long shot. I think UW has poor creatures and sub-par control options, but it is made up for with consistency and flexibility. They get access to some of the best cards (Jayce, Angel of Serenity), but honestly there is nothing in RTR that seems broken. Angel is powerful, but slaughter games takes care of that for control and she's too slow to rely on against aggro. Jayce is a good card but frankly he's overpriced. His ability (draw the best card out of your next 3 cards) is powerful but it's not broken and he's quite easy to deal with.
Frankly it seems to me that each color has a few great cards and a majority of underwhelming cards. I wouldn't be surprised if 5-color lamp control crops up as a competitor.
I explain why I think UWx is the best deck in about 20 paragraphs in my thread. I'm watching the current RTR Constructed Daily on MTGO right now and all the top decks are Bant control. Rakdos is getting crushed and Selesnya Populate seems to be doing alright. UWx just has every tool it needs in every match up in the meta. Since this is a single block format right now there aren't a wide variety of threats to choose from but there are some broad answers. That means while your opponents are forced into using sub par threats you have powerful ways to deal with them. You say Angel of Serenity is too slow against Aggro but when you drop Jace or Supreme Verdict on turn 4 and then begin to stabilize with Sphinx's Revelation into Angel, it doesn't seem that hard. Sure Slaughter Games removes Angel but you still have Jace, Armada Wurm and Keyrunes to finish off your opponent. I guess we'll see who's right.
I go over UWr, UW, and UWg control variants in my thread here. I definitely think that UW (or UWg if the format allows the time to develop your mana base) is going to be the best deck by a long shot. It has all the most powerful tools in one deck and Angel of Serenity is the best creature (best card, perhaps) in the format. Like Awjustaguy said Archon of the Triumvirate is bad. It's too slow in the aggro match ups and worthless in the control mirrors. Angel is good in both of these since if your opponent has no creatures to exile you can wait until you have two Angels and start the loop. As I discussed in my posts in the other thread, I believe this deck struggles against Slaughter Games which might be the reason he included more creatures, but I think that could be fixed by going UWg and adding Armada Wurm while staying a dedicated control deck.
The Daily Event deck lists aren't posted on Wizards yet but once that's up I plan to update both my Jund thread and my UW list to beat the expected metagame.
Ya, I say no go on the Pyroconvergence plan. Better used in some kind of 5 color control deck and not as a little (very little) bit of value in an aggressive midrange deck.
Well, up to this point I was pretty dead set on playing UW or Bant control for block but everyone else finally came to realize how absurd Jace, Architect of Thought, Angel of Serenity and Sphinx's Revelation were and the deck is now up to around 280 tickets to put together (330ish for Bant). So, looks like I'm back to Jund as it still looks to be a solid deck (and about half the price). I'm buying all the cards on Friday and this is the final list I'm putting together:
The major change here is the addition of the Rakdos Keyrunes. I felt like When I got flooded there wasn't much to do with the extra mana, and when I got mana screwed it was usually at 3 or 4 which limited me to 1 spell per turn. The Keyrunes fix, or at least help with, both of those problems by giving me an extra guy if I have the spare mana or to help get out of mana screw. Also, I added a main deck Golgari Charm to fight against Supreme Verdict in game 1 and just as an all around good card.
Here you're just taking out all of your terrible Sorcery speed removal and putting in really good cards. I cut 1 Deadbridge Goliath because I want to bring in 7 cards and he's probably the least impactful of your creatures against them. The game plan is to just play a couple threats and protect them with Golgari Charms and Abrupt Decays and then land a Slaughter Games and/or a big Rakdos's Return. You might have to leave in some amount of Dreadbores against Bant to take care of any Armada Wurms that resolve.
Since I'm not sure what this deck will look like (only that I'm sure some people will build it) I basically just copy pasted the above sideboard plan. Vandalblast is in my sideboard for this specific match up since whatever this monstrosity is trying to cast it probably involves multiple Keyrunes/Chromatic Lanterns.
Golgari Charm hits basically nothing in their deck (Unleash guarantees their toughness is at least 2) and the regen is too slow. All the other cuts should make sense. I cut 1 Vraska because she's just too slow to really impact the board. We bring in a ton of removal and an additional (albeit expensive) sweeper.
I could certainly be wrong about this (will have to see how other people build their Jund decks) but this seems the way to go. Mizzium Mortars only kills Lotleth Troll (not really) and Dreg Mangler (after they've attacked) so that seems pretty bad. You're basically switching those and Auger Spree which kills both Troll and Mangler before they can do much. Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm are cut for basically they same reasons (although maybe keep the Decays if your opponent is using Keyrunes too?). Slaughter Games seems slow and unnecessary since you are both doing the same thing you can at least match their powerful plays with your own. Rakdos's Return wins you games on its own since being up cards in the mirror is pure gold. Underworld Connections fills a similar role since you will usually be in a stand off with similar creatures on the board and you can just overwhelm them (maybe keep in Decay to kill your opponents Connections?). Ultimate Price, while it doesn't deal with Troll and Mangler gets rid of Deadbridge Goliath and Desecration Demon. Maybe it's not needed though and I could see an argument for keeping in Abrupt Decay over bringing this in.
Ok, well that's all the decks I can think of off the top of my head. As you can see all the cards have places they come in at and holes they fill in each match up, so I think the Sideboard is pretty solid. It of course will need to be tuned once the actual metagame is sorted out but this seems good for now. Even if my read is slightly off Jund is really good at having a solid game plan and I know that my deck can just present threats and have removal to put the game away. Anyways, see you guys in the dailies! Name is degausser on mtgo too so feel free to message me.
I know they're unpopular, but I would definitely run some number of guildgates. I know it is tempo loss, but improving your mana is paramount. There are always going to be opportunities to play them off-curve anyway.
Agreed. The deck only has 1 one drop so the majority of the time you can just play a turn one Guildgate for free. Turn 3 only has one play as well so that's a pretty free turn to play one out too. After that you start to curve out with two spells a turn which it could slow down, but for the most part I think it's worth it.
Next time we test i'll show you how good the Archon of the Triumvirate is lol, it's won me loads of game getting the last bits of damage through, it can attack into two desecration demon's and still deal 4 damage and then you don't have to worry about them attacking you back next turn even if they kill the archon.
So why don't you just run more ramp and card draw and drop a Angel of Serenity instead? It does the same thing but better. Like I said previously, the Archon doesn't help you stabilize, it just delays things. If he immediately dies (or even many turns later) it's possible that you've accomplished nothing with him and will lose anyways. I want to give more reasons than that but that's the gist of it.. he just doesn't do anything for you.
I know that the New Prahv Guildmage is nothing to scream home about but it does two important things.
1st, it gives you an early board presence against the fast decks a blocker to trade with and can even be the beat down with the azorius keyrune. (quickly taking 10 life out of other control deck's before they know what's happened)
2nd, it eat's removal if your opponent dreadbore's,mizzium mortas or even uses an abrupt decay on this your happy because its one less removal for the rest of your really important cards to worry about.
I even thought about putting a 3rd main deck but can't bring myself to take anything out.
Why do you need a board presence in the early game? Why not just run another Detention Sphere or other piece of removal if it's just going to be used as a blocker? Even Inaction Injunction draws you a card so you can dig to Supreme Verdict or some ramp for Angel. Sure, you might be able to do some quick damage to a control deck but then they'll just beat you with all their late game spells that they have over the Guildmage (Sphinx's Revelation undoes the damage and out cards you). What deck would waste a removal spell on that creature when they know you have Angel of Serenity in your deck? If it's a control deck then again, they don't really care about a 2/2 beater, and against Jund or aggro they'll just attack into it so you'll block, or if they do remove it it's because they plan on killing you soon thereafter. Mizzium Mortars hits nothing in my deck so that just gives them a target game 1, they'll save Abrupt Decay for Detention Spheres or Azorius Keyrunes, and Dreadbore, like I said, will be saved for Angel of Serenity or Jace, Architect of Thought. While New Prahv Guildmage sounds good in theory (not even then, actually) I don't think it's at all where this deck wants to go.
I love me a Sphinx's Revelation, I do but I've just not needed it, again I just don't know what to take out of the main board, I'm sure when more people start testing it will evolve faster.
Sphinx's Revelation might be the second best card in my deck (after Angel of Serenity) since it just does so much. The life gain undoes some of the damage you've taken in the early game (better than a blocking guildmage probably), and if you're getting overwhelmed helps you dig for whatever it is you need (Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere or Angel of Serenity). I know this term gets thrown around a lot, but the life gain is almost like a "Time Walk" in that you can afford to use a whole turn casting it against aggro because the life you gain sometimes undoes the damage they did that turn. Resolving this card late game (X > 5) basically ends the game right there putting the game out of reach due to the life gain and also gives you so many cards to deal with any lingering threats. Since you're running the ramp to get Angel of Serenity out quickly anyways, this card is, in my opinion, a must.
Oh yeah Sphinx of the Chimes lol, man I don't see this ever drawing me cards, which cards would you want to discard ? (if you had two), if in the really really really late game you have 3 angel's in your hand(which is possible) you could discard two of them then buy them back but that seems very narrow, the only thing this sphinx has in it's favour is it can block a wurm.
Sphinx of the Chimes is actually a lot better than he looks. First, he's just a 5/6 Flyer for 6 mana. Sometimes you haven't ramped a lot (or missing colors for your Angel) and just need to drop a creature to stabilize, and this is one of the best sized bodies to do so. Secondly, his synergy with Sphinx's Revelation is not to be overlooked. If you ever need to you can cast a large Sphinx's Revelation and then "go off" by discarding excess Supreme Verdicts (if you're ahead on board), mana rocks, Azorius Charms, or whatever else that is useless, hopefully drawing you into some Angel of Serenitys to end the game shortly thereafter. It may seem "win more" but it's a useful ability tacked on to an already decent body, so there's little to no opportunity cost. The fact that he can block Armada Wurm, as you said, is very relevant as I believe that card will see a lot of play.
There are a couple of sideboard card's I'd like to mention that have been pulling their weight firstly palisade giant is a brick wall against aggro, it trades with everything and stabilizes your board instantly, Isperia, Supreme Judge is another awesome card out of the sideboard against control deck and a lot of aggro deck will side out their mizzium mortas when they realize you don't have that many creatures, it can race opponent's, in 3 attack there dead and with a keyrune you can have it in play turn 5.
Why do you need Palisade Giant when you could ramp to, and dig to, a Angel of Serenity? It does about the same thing while being better against removal. Also, there's not a lot of burn in the format (1 card?) so he'd only be preventing combat damage which the Angel stops by getting rid of guys. The Giant doesn't stabilize your board as much as it just puts it in stasis. Angel of Serenity actually moves towards stabilizing because it builds an advantage that's hard for your opponent to come back from.
Again, same thing with Isperia, Supreme Judge - it's just a worse Angel of Serenity. Instead of drawing cards when your opponent attacks you, you cast Angel and basically draw 3 cards that say "destroy target creature" right away. As for your opponent siding out Mizzium Mortars, they side it out because it doesn't hit any of your creatures... so how is this a benefit over Angel or Sphinx?
Isperia still takes 4 hits to kill (unless you get in a Keyrune attack) which is the same amount as the other creatures, and the difference between 3 and 4 turns is negligible if you've cast a 6/7 drop creature, and have the luxury of being in the position to be able to be attacking with it.
I don't mean to be an ass (really, I don't), but I just don't see a benefit to your list over a dedicated Angel of Serenity deck. It's somewhat better (maybe?) in the early game but is quickly outclassed in the late game, which is what control decks are trying to get to and take advantage of. I'm sure more testing will show which list is better though. Again, I'm not trying to put you down (you've shown your ability in deck building in the Jund thread), but I just don't think that your list uses the most powerful Blue and White spells to their full potential, which yields a suboptimal deck list. Look forward to hearing from you (and anyone else) about about this.
hi quick edit :-
i took jarad's orders out of the deck (just wasn't doing anything) and added the 4th mizzium mortars to the main deck.
really please with the main deck now its can stabilize against aggro pritty fast and after sideboarding in 4 auger spree for 2 slaughter games, 1 treasure find and 1 vraska the unseen the aggro match ups become much easier, you can just grind them out.
Against control its possible to win the first game now where it was nearly always and instant loss, 2 main deck slaughter games have changed this and if you draw just 1 of these it helps so much and i have even been thinking of adding a 3rd to the main instead of treasure find, again after sideboarding the deck runs much better siding in 2 more slaughter games and 3 underworld connections taking out the 4 mizzium mortars and a dreadbore, underworld help draw you into slaughter games and you can just rape their library's of the meaningful cards.
The hardest match up's now are other midrange deck with a lot more card advantage than jund. Mainly selesnya midrange their token strategies can get out of hand, but these deck are a lot worst vs control.
yours
paulallan
Think we're (you're) finally getting to a solid Jund list. As much as I ragged on Underworld Connections I do like 1 main deck (I'm a sucker for 1-of draw spells in decks). I think you could replace the Treasure Find with that. Everything else looks pretty good. Still not sure you want the full 4 Vraska the Unseens in the main, and would prob drop one for a mise Rakdos's Return since that card is a sick late game draw (and not too shabby mid game). I think that would be the most solid main deck in the pre-meta era of deck building. We'll just have to wait and see how the other decks shape up and then tune from there (number of Abrupt Decay, Slaughter Games, etc.).
We'll have to do some more testing soon (fixed my MWS) and work out how to play specific match ups (this goes for anyone, just PM me). Anyways, good work!
Overall I think the deck is a contender just because of the nut draws it can get and because it's the fastest deck in the format. Keep testing and let us know what you like/don't like.
Agree about cutting Rakdos Shred Freak, especially when running both a green and a black one drop. As for the 4 drop situation, I don't know of a better card than Desecration Demon. 6/6 Flyer for 4 that at least kills your opponents creatures so your littler guys from earlier can get through.
Unfortunately I'm not sure what the benefit of this deck is over Jund. You lose the best removal and you gain... Dryad Militant and a 3/1? Not feeling it.
Just got into Pauper while I wait for RTR so been really busy playing and tuning my UR Post list. However, I still want to work on this deck so I know what I should purchase when the set is released online.
Paul, there are some things I like about your list and some that I'm not too keen on. First, I think maybe staying UW for the consistency is the way to go (and cheaper lol). While Selesnya Charm is good at exiling Angel of Serenity so is Syncopate, and Syncopate is good a vast majority of the time since you have a lot of mana and instant speed card draw. I also think Azorius Keyrune will be key (pun!) in the mirror so it's best to load up on those.
What I don't like however is your creature selection. I think New Prahv Guildmage is too low impact to be included in the deck. I'd rather run another removal spell or card draw spell to get us closer to Angel of Serenity since that's the only card that really matters. Secondly, I think Archon of the Triumvirate is garbage. Now, I have yet to play with him, and I'm open to hearing about your experience with him, but he just seems like a 7 mana do nothing. With Sphinx of the Chimes you at least get some late game super-cycling (not to mention he costs 6), while Archon can be in play for multiple turns and accomplish nothing. I mean sure you can delay by Detaining some stuff, but you're not actually dealing with the threats and once he dies your opponent starts beating again. Now I know this deck is all about delaying until you can drop an Angel, but I'd rather have Sphinx is almost every situation. My two cents, anyways. I also think you need at least one Sphinx's Revelation in the main deck, especially if you're running Syncopate (can draw cards if you don't end up countering anything).
Well, I was back for a whopping hour and a half to write that post and review my list on MTGO but have been ridiculously busy ever since. School plus internship (and having major projects in both) has kept me busy but I'm finally finished with most of that so I'M BACK!
Ok I'm back to being caught up on current lists and such and will be running your most current list in a couple of DEs tonight. Although I'm going to cut a land in favor of another Rakdos Keyrune because, like you all have been talking about, it helps you play around Supreme Verdict. Troll plus Keyrune plus any 4 mana threat makes it so their Verdict is only 1 for 1ing you and keeps a good amount of pressure on the board. While multiple Keyrunes can still be stopped by Detention Sphere, you have Abrupt Decay for that whose only other targets are opposing Keyrunes. We'll see.
Anyways, off for lunch and a meeting but plan on doing probably 3 dailies total tonight, although not until later this evening.
@Goliat -
For the most part I like your list.
I was skeptical of Desecration Demon at first too but it just hits so hard, and is so big, that if they don't have a removal spell for it immediately you can kill them quickly/shut down their offense. I think, while it definitely has downsides, it is actually a very solid card.
The one creature I'm skeptical of is Dreg Mangler. How has he been for you? He's always been mediocre for me and I was thinking of cutting him for more removal. I mean he's never really completely dead in any match up (blocks in creature match ups, haste attacker in control match ups), but he just always seems just ok. However, while I've been away this Golgari deck has become a real thing and I'm not sure if maybe you just need him in the deck.
Also, I think that Rakdos Keyrune is amazing and could never see going less than 3 (and serious reasoning for going under 4). It's an awesome threat against control, let's you play your spells on curve while leaving up Lotleth Troll regen or Syncopate for 1 protection, ramps to Vraska the Unseen and Rakdos's Return, and many more things. Also, it helps with mana screw which, may seem obvious, but being 3 mana and getting us to 4 is very important since all of our major threats are at 4 and without Keyrune it's almost impossible to justify keeping 2 landers for that reason (although I still mulligan most 2 land hands even with Keyrune). I'd just like to hear your thoughts on having only 2.
Ok, everyone keeps telling me to play Deathrite Shaman so I'll buy a couple and try them out. I think 2 is the right number for something of that effect, so I'll start there. I was getting desperate for life gain and even tried Rakdos Ragemutt in the board (which wasn't as awful as you might think, although still sad).
Is 3 Underworld Connections too many? My latest (non-Dreg Mangler) list moved up to 2 copies main deck but I was always scared I'd draw them against Rakdos aggro and just die. I'm sure with access to some man deck life gain it's a lot easier to have multiples out at once though. Still, 3 seems like too many.
I run 25 lands and I'm fine with it, but I also run 4 Keyrunes so I can operate on less lands than you maybe? I will say that I'd rather be flooded than mana screwed, however I think 25 lands is enough.
Like I said, before I left for my trip there was no Golgari deck and the meta was basically GW, Rakdos and various UWx control decks. While the Rakdos match up was rocky, and multiple Armada Wurms were tough to beat, I felt that the deck was very well positioned in the format. If Golgari is as tough as you say then some changes definitely need to be made (i.e. some amount of main deck Auger Sprees). I'd like to hear more about this match up and what you feel the key cards are in it.
Anyways, like I said I'll be starting up dailies again tomorrow evening starting with Goliat's list and let you know how it goes. Glad this thread is finally getting some action and respect! Look forward to hearing from you all. Feel free to message me on MTGO also, same username.
I really don't see what this card would be doing in the deck. Scavenge is the only thing this disrupts and I haven't seen a ton of that being used. Other than that it's just a shock every turn that lets Control 2 for 1 you with their Supreme Verdicts and Aggro mostly ignores. Why do you think he'd be good in the deck? The only threats I want to run in the deck need to be hard to remove and win the game in short order, and this fulfills neither of these qualities. Still, I'd like to hear your take on it, as well as the rest of the deck.
As an aside, does anyone know why only some dailies show up on the What's Happening page on Wizards.com? I've 4-0'd/3-1'd 7 out of my last 9 dailies and yet haven't seen my name up there. Just wondering.
TheBlaqDove: That's definitely a more aggressive version of the deck. Why did you go Jund colors when you could have stayed Rakdos and had a more consistent mana base? Do you not think that the Guildgates will slow you down too much? There are plenty of games with my deck that my first play isn't until turn 3 because of all the tapped lands, but mine is designed for the late game so that isn't a problem. Just wondering how you came up with the list.
I'm really, really liking this list. So far I'm 12-4 in tournament matches (4 Dailies), which is pretty sweet. It seems to have good match ups across the board, even if Rakdos Aggro is a bit iffy. We totally annihilate the Control decks and have a pretty decent game vs Selesnya if they don't draw Armada Wurm, but can still win if they do.
I've been really underwhelmed with Dreg Mangler so far, but not sure what could replace him. We could go up to 4 Mizzium Mortars and 3 Abrupt Decay main, and maybe add another Underworld Connections since it's good vs anything not-Rakdos. Not sure yet, might try that out.
EDIT: 3-1'd again. I misplayed Round 3 horribly, which isn't the deck's fault and think I had a shot at a 4-0. Beat the mirror in Round 4 which means we both had shots at going 3-1 which is encouraging. His build was more controlling with his only kill conditions being Desecration Demon and Vraska the Unseen's Ultimate. He also had 4 Rakdos's Return main deck and Slaughter Games. Anyways, again thought the deck was very solid. As much crap as I talked about Dreg Mangler he helped me in a few games this Daily, so maybe he's not too bad. Meh, probably still is. Up to 15-5 in tournament matches so far which is pretty good, still looking for an actual 4-0 though.
The control decks are ridiculously easy now that I went up to 3 Rakdos's Return main deck. Basically the first turn they tap out you win the game. After that just play 1 threat at a time and you eventually get there.
Rakdos however is very challenging. The problem is that even when you stabilize there's no good life gain in the format so you just eventually die. I'm so desperate for life gain I may put some Stonefare Crocodiles in the board or splash for Heroes' Reunion.
I bought the cards earlier today so haven't gotten a ton of games in yet (on MTGO anyways, I've played a ton on MWS) but I played 5 matches prior to the DE and went 5-0 very easily. You just have some very solid and hard to deal with threats backed up with tons of removal and Rakdos's Return so you're favored in the basically every stage of the game.
Anyways, don't know if anyone cares but thought I'd give an update here. Updated the OP with my current list.
Perfectly stated. I think the only thing that will keep these decks in check are nut draws from Rakdos players and the price of the deck (280-350 depending on the version).
I've been watching all of the replays from the dailies and one thing that seems interesting is that UWR has a big edge in the mirror because Counterflux cannot be countered. In the UWx mirrors without red whoever resolves Jace, Architect of Thought , or a Sphinx's Revelation pretty much wins so there's usually a counter war over one of those 2 cards, but against UWR they can always stop their opponents spells or make sure that theirs resolves. I Initially started the format with UWR in mind but liked the idea of ramping to Angel of Serenity quickly and consistently to stop the aggro decks, but if the meta turns to control mirrors then maybe UWR is the way to go.
I explain why I think UWx is the best deck in about 20 paragraphs in my thread. I'm watching the current RTR Constructed Daily on MTGO right now and all the top decks are Bant control. Rakdos is getting crushed and Selesnya Populate seems to be doing alright. UWx just has every tool it needs in every match up in the meta. Since this is a single block format right now there aren't a wide variety of threats to choose from but there are some broad answers. That means while your opponents are forced into using sub par threats you have powerful ways to deal with them. You say Angel of Serenity is too slow against Aggro but when you drop Jace or Supreme Verdict on turn 4 and then begin to stabilize with Sphinx's Revelation into Angel, it doesn't seem that hard. Sure Slaughter Games removes Angel but you still have Jace, Armada Wurm and Keyrunes to finish off your opponent. I guess we'll see who's right.
The Daily Event deck lists aren't posted on Wizards yet but once that's up I plan to update both my Jund thread and my UW list to beat the expected metagame.
Well, up to this point I was pretty dead set on playing UW or Bant control for block but everyone else finally came to realize how absurd Jace, Architect of Thought, Angel of Serenity and Sphinx's Revelation were and the deck is now up to around 280 tickets to put together (330ish for Bant). So, looks like I'm back to Jund as it still looks to be a solid deck (and about half the price). I'm buying all the cards on Friday and this is the final list I'm putting together:
4 Blood Crypt
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Rakdos Guildgate
6 Forest
2 Swamp" target="blank">Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Deadbridge Goliath
4 Desecration Demon
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
3 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Underworld Connections
2 Slaughter Games
3 Vraska the Unseen
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Vandalblast
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Ultimate Price
2 Golgari Charm
3 Auger Spree
2 Underworld Connections
1 Slaughter Games
2 Street Spasm
1 Rakdos's Return
The major change here is the addition of the Rakdos Keyrunes. I felt like When I got flooded there wasn't much to do with the extra mana, and when I got mana screwed it was usually at 3 or 4 which limited me to 1 spell per turn. The Keyrunes fix, or at least help with, both of those problems by giving me an extra guy if I have the spare mana or to help get out of mana screw. Also, I added a main deck Golgari Charm to fight against Supreme Verdict in game 1 and just as an all around good card.
Sideboarding:
VS UWx Serenity Control
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-4 Dreadbore
-1 Deadbridge Goliath
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Ultimate Price
+1 Slaughter Games
+1 Rakdos's Return
+2 Underworld Connections
Here you're just taking out all of your terrible Sorcery speed removal and putting in really good cards. I cut 1 Deadbridge Goliath because I want to bring in 7 cards and he's probably the least impactful of your creatures against them. The game plan is to just play a couple threats and protect them with Golgari Charms and Abrupt Decays and then land a Slaughter Games and/or a big Rakdos's Return. You might have to leave in some amount of Dreadbores against Bant to take care of any Armada Wurms that resolve.
VS 5 Color Control
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-4 Dreadbore
-1 Deadbridge Goliath
+1 Vandalblast
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Ultimate Price
+1 Rakdos's Return
+2 Underworld Connections
Since I'm not sure what this deck will look like (only that I'm sure some people will build it) I basically just copy pasted the above sideboard plan. Vandalblast is in my sideboard for this specific match up since whatever this monstrosity is trying to cast it probably involves multiple Keyrunes/Chromatic Lanterns.
VS Rakdos Aggro
-1 Golgari Charm
-1 Underworld Connections
-2 Slaughter Games
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-1 Rakdos's Return
+1 Mizzium Mortars
+3 Auger Spree
+2 Street Spasm
Golgari Charm hits basically nothing in their deck (Unleash guarantees their toughness is at least 2) and the regen is too slow. All the other cuts should make sense. I cut 1 Vraska because she's just too slow to really impact the board. We bring in a ton of removal and an additional (albeit expensive) sweeper.
VS Jund Mirror
-1 Golgari Charm
-2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Mizzium Mortars
-2 Slaughter Games
+2 Ultimate Price
+3 Auger Spree
+2 Underworld Connections
+1 Rakdos's Return
I could certainly be wrong about this (will have to see how other people build their Jund decks) but this seems the way to go. Mizzium Mortars only kills Lotleth Troll (not really) and Dreg Mangler (after they've attacked) so that seems pretty bad. You're basically switching those and Auger Spree which kills both Troll and Mangler before they can do much. Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm are cut for basically they same reasons (although maybe keep the Decays if your opponent is using Keyrunes too?). Slaughter Games seems slow and unnecessary since you are both doing the same thing you can at least match their powerful plays with your own. Rakdos's Return wins you games on its own since being up cards in the mirror is pure gold. Underworld Connections fills a similar role since you will usually be in a stand off with similar creatures on the board and you can just overwhelm them (maybe keep in Decay to kill your opponents Connections?). Ultimate Price, while it doesn't deal with Troll and Mangler gets rid of Deadbridge Goliath and Desecration Demon. Maybe it's not needed though and I could see an argument for keeping in Abrupt Decay over bringing this in.
VS Selesnya Midrange
-1 Golgari Charm
-2 Slaughter Games
-1 Dreadbore
-1 Dreg Mangler
+1 Mizzium Mortars
+1 Underworld Connections
+2 Street Spasm
+1 Rakdos's Return
I think there will be two versions of this deck. One will be aggressive (Precinct Captains, Call of the Conclave and Loxodon Smiter beat down) and the other more controlling (Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage, Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and Armada Wurm Populate). Against both you'll want to bring in Mizzium Mortars and Street Spasm. Against Aggro you probably want the Dreadbore and Dreg Mangler and not bring in the Underworld Connections and Rakdos's Return. Against the Populate deck you might want to take out some amount of spot removal since they'll mostly be making lots of tokens and bring in the Connections and Retun since they let you pull ahead once the inevitable board stall occurs.
Ok, well that's all the decks I can think of off the top of my head. As you can see all the cards have places they come in at and holes they fill in each match up, so I think the Sideboard is pretty solid. It of course will need to be tuned once the actual metagame is sorted out but this seems good for now. Even if my read is slightly off Jund is really good at having a solid game plan and I know that my deck can just present threats and have removal to put the game away. Anyways, see you guys in the dailies! Name is degausser on mtgo too so feel free to message me.
Agreed. The deck only has 1 one drop so the majority of the time you can just play a turn one Guildgate for free. Turn 3 only has one play as well so that's a pretty free turn to play one out too. After that you start to curve out with two spells a turn which it could slow down, but for the most part I think it's worth it.
Edit: Nath'd by Dromar as I was posting >.<
So why don't you just run more ramp and card draw and drop a Angel of Serenity instead? It does the same thing but better. Like I said previously, the Archon doesn't help you stabilize, it just delays things. If he immediately dies (or even many turns later) it's possible that you've accomplished nothing with him and will lose anyways. I want to give more reasons than that but that's the gist of it.. he just doesn't do anything for you.
Why do you need a board presence in the early game? Why not just run another Detention Sphere or other piece of removal if it's just going to be used as a blocker? Even Inaction Injunction draws you a card so you can dig to Supreme Verdict or some ramp for Angel. Sure, you might be able to do some quick damage to a control deck but then they'll just beat you with all their late game spells that they have over the Guildmage (Sphinx's Revelation undoes the damage and out cards you). What deck would waste a removal spell on that creature when they know you have Angel of Serenity in your deck? If it's a control deck then again, they don't really care about a 2/2 beater, and against Jund or aggro they'll just attack into it so you'll block, or if they do remove it it's because they plan on killing you soon thereafter. Mizzium Mortars hits nothing in my deck so that just gives them a target game 1, they'll save Abrupt Decay for Detention Spheres or Azorius Keyrunes, and Dreadbore, like I said, will be saved for Angel of Serenity or Jace, Architect of Thought. While New Prahv Guildmage sounds good in theory (not even then, actually) I don't think it's at all where this deck wants to go.
Sphinx's Revelation might be the second best card in my deck (after Angel of Serenity) since it just does so much. The life gain undoes some of the damage you've taken in the early game (better than a blocking guildmage probably), and if you're getting overwhelmed helps you dig for whatever it is you need (Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere or Angel of Serenity). I know this term gets thrown around a lot, but the life gain is almost like a "Time Walk" in that you can afford to use a whole turn casting it against aggro because the life you gain sometimes undoes the damage they did that turn. Resolving this card late game (X > 5) basically ends the game right there putting the game out of reach due to the life gain and also gives you so many cards to deal with any lingering threats. Since you're running the ramp to get Angel of Serenity out quickly anyways, this card is, in my opinion, a must.
Sphinx of the Chimes is actually a lot better than he looks. First, he's just a 5/6 Flyer for 6 mana. Sometimes you haven't ramped a lot (or missing colors for your Angel) and just need to drop a creature to stabilize, and this is one of the best sized bodies to do so. Secondly, his synergy with Sphinx's Revelation is not to be overlooked. If you ever need to you can cast a large Sphinx's Revelation and then "go off" by discarding excess Supreme Verdicts (if you're ahead on board), mana rocks, Azorius Charms, or whatever else that is useless, hopefully drawing you into some Angel of Serenitys to end the game shortly thereafter. It may seem "win more" but it's a useful ability tacked on to an already decent body, so there's little to no opportunity cost. The fact that he can block Armada Wurm, as you said, is very relevant as I believe that card will see a lot of play.
Why do you need Palisade Giant when you could ramp to, and dig to, a Angel of Serenity? It does about the same thing while being better against removal. Also, there's not a lot of burn in the format (1 card?) so he'd only be preventing combat damage which the Angel stops by getting rid of guys. The Giant doesn't stabilize your board as much as it just puts it in stasis. Angel of Serenity actually moves towards stabilizing because it builds an advantage that's hard for your opponent to come back from.
Again, same thing with Isperia, Supreme Judge - it's just a worse Angel of Serenity. Instead of drawing cards when your opponent attacks you, you cast Angel and basically draw 3 cards that say "destroy target creature" right away. As for your opponent siding out Mizzium Mortars, they side it out because it doesn't hit any of your creatures... so how is this a benefit over Angel or Sphinx?
Isperia still takes 4 hits to kill (unless you get in a Keyrune attack) which is the same amount as the other creatures, and the difference between 3 and 4 turns is negligible if you've cast a 6/7 drop creature, and have the luxury of being in the position to be able to be attacking with it.
I don't mean to be an ass (really, I don't), but I just don't see a benefit to your list over a dedicated Angel of Serenity deck. It's somewhat better (maybe?) in the early game but is quickly outclassed in the late game, which is what control decks are trying to get to and take advantage of. I'm sure more testing will show which list is better though. Again, I'm not trying to put you down (you've shown your ability in deck building in the Jund thread), but I just don't think that your list uses the most powerful Blue and White spells to their full potential, which yields a suboptimal deck list. Look forward to hearing from you (and anyone else) about about this.
Think we're (you're) finally getting to a solid Jund list. As much as I ragged on Underworld Connections I do like 1 main deck (I'm a sucker for 1-of draw spells in decks). I think you could replace the Treasure Find with that. Everything else looks pretty good. Still not sure you want the full 4 Vraska the Unseens in the main, and would prob drop one for a mise Rakdos's Return since that card is a sick late game draw (and not too shabby mid game). I think that would be the most solid main deck in the pre-meta era of deck building. We'll just have to wait and see how the other decks shape up and then tune from there (number of Abrupt Decay, Slaughter Games, etc.).
We'll have to do some more testing soon (fixed my MWS) and work out how to play specific match ups (this goes for anyone, just PM me). Anyways, good work!
Overall I think the deck is a contender just because of the nut draws it can get and because it's the fastest deck in the format. Keep testing and let us know what you like/don't like.
Unfortunately I'm not sure what the benefit of this deck is over Jund. You lose the best removal and you gain... Dryad Militant and a 3/1? Not feeling it.
Paul, there are some things I like about your list and some that I'm not too keen on. First, I think maybe staying UW for the consistency is the way to go (and cheaper lol). While Selesnya Charm is good at exiling Angel of Serenity so is Syncopate, and Syncopate is good a vast majority of the time since you have a lot of mana and instant speed card draw. I also think Azorius Keyrune will be key (pun!) in the mirror so it's best to load up on those.
What I don't like however is your creature selection. I think New Prahv Guildmage is too low impact to be included in the deck. I'd rather run another removal spell or card draw spell to get us closer to Angel of Serenity since that's the only card that really matters. Secondly, I think Archon of the Triumvirate is garbage. Now, I have yet to play with him, and I'm open to hearing about your experience with him, but he just seems like a 7 mana do nothing. With Sphinx of the Chimes you at least get some late game super-cycling (not to mention he costs 6), while Archon can be in play for multiple turns and accomplish nothing. I mean sure you can delay by Detaining some stuff, but you're not actually dealing with the threats and once he dies your opponent starts beating again. Now I know this deck is all about delaying until you can drop an Angel, but I'd rather have Sphinx is almost every situation. My two cents, anyways. I also think you need at least one Sphinx's Revelation in the main deck, especially if you're running Syncopate (can draw cards if you don't end up countering anything).