It looks like My missus is gunna get into this format too. This is the deck she wants to play. I have no idea if it'd be any good or not so I'm posting it here hopeing You guys can give her some advice if it's needed
First of all: Yes, I was never able to make Vizkopa Guildmage work either. It's an archenemy card without the advantages of schemes - or good rares. And one-on-one it's a weak card, even with giving some of the fatties available to W/B lifelink.
That's pretty much what i found. I also found it was just too slow
Quote from iamfanboy »
But I think your deck is TOO removal-heavy, what with being able to sac slivers to destroy permanents anyway. Even though you've got quite a bit of recursion anyway, running more instead of things like O-ring, Weight of Conscience, Faith's Fetters, etcetera I'd focus on running as much common graveyard recursion as you could find to take advantage of your general; while you have tons you're missing Soul Stair Expedition, Tortured Existence, Cadaver Imp... Soul Stair Expedition also works with your Auramancer plan. You might add Unearth, too - since most of your creatures are 3cc or less, and all but one of the ETB ones are under 3cc too...
I went with a few of these effects to give me a way to deal with thing I didn't want being reccured. I also didn't want to go all in on My general as my only removal.
Quote from iamfanboy »
Totem-Guide Hartebeast isn't doing all that much for you, here; with so few auras (only 5?) and none of them game-breakers, I'm not sure I'd run him.
Fair enough. I think it's worth trying but I could be wrong. I'll find out later when I go for a game
Quote from iamfanboy »
What all does Brainspoil fetch? I only see a couple of 5cc spells in your deck, and while a couple of them are good (Lymph Spitting and Venser), I don't think it's worth a slot on a subpar removal to tutor up any of those.
My main idea here was Lymph Sliver would be amazing with Pestilence and I really wanted to be able to find it.
After trying a few different approaches with Vizkopa Guildmage and not bring able to get him to work in any way I loked I've decided to move on to my next choice for a black/white general.
Well, at the very least, you do auto win with infinite mana. The guildmage's first ability stacks, so you can pay it 200 times, play a dude from your hand, he comes in with 200 counters, and then you can draw most of yoru deck, play out all the dudes, who all come in with 200 +1/+1 counters, and win the next turn. (and capsize all their permanents if you do draw it)
Edit: And I think combos in pauper are really ok, there's lots of countermagic / removal and combined with the lack of tutoring, if it comes up, it's actually kind of cool to win (and won't happen but once in a blue moon)
You make some good points here mate. I'll talk to the guys about it and see if they're cool with it
Does your list feel too tight to include the freed from the real + krosan restorer combo, as just an additional "oops I win" combo? With all of the card draw potential you have here, you might be able to just top drawn the pieces off the library without too much tutoring.
I thought about putting it in there but as You've guessed, the list feels too tight and I don't really have a use for infinite mana other than Capsize everybody back to the stone age. The deck is really stong without it anyway. I haven't lost a game with this deck yet.
My group also got into pauper to get away from all the crazy combo b.s for a while so They wouldn't have been happy with me if I put it in and managed to get it off.
I think you should run them anyway, also if you just shell for a single snowland you will probably have it 90% of the time considering the land-fetch available to you. Rather than the digger/imp, you could fill 'er up with Liliana's Shade, Twisted Abomination and Moriok Replica to help you get that snow swamp. Previously suggested Wayfarer's Bauble helps too and is run even in many full-power BW lists.
That could work. I'll see if I can find them
Quote from urdjur »
You may be right, but how much will you get to attack anyway in such a Pestilence-laden meta? If you need to re-equip it each attack and have about 1/3 land in your deck, you're paying 3 mana to ramp 1 land over 3 turns, which is still acceptable I suppose. It's probably a lot better for you with all the pestilence protection you're running though.
That's pretty much what I'm thinking. The protection should be enough.
Quote from urdjur »
Do tell us how it went over! I heard from another pauper who tried Vizkopa multiplayer and got steam-rolled. Turns out using extort offensively and early at a big table with no plan to seal the deal quickly was a bad idea. Personally, I'd wait to gain life until I had to and only then bring out Vizkopa to finish off the weakest player quickly while weakening the remaining players and building up defenses early game to take them on afterwards.
I'll let You know how it goes mate. That sounds like a solid game plan and is probably similar to the approach I'll use
That's an interesting list robtheman. What are the rules for Your group? I'm seeing a lot of uncommons and even a rare in that list
Have you looked at updating this at all in the last (yikes!) two years? There's all kinds of good rat-stuff out here now: Pack Rat, Cavern of Souls, and Ogre Slumlord to name a few. Anyway, as you may tell from the fact that I'm dredging this ancient thread up, I've been looking for a good rat deck to run against my buddy's goblin deck, in what will undoubtedly be a clusterf--k of tokeny goodness.
I haven't played this deck for a really long time. If I was going to update it I'd start with the 3 cards You mentioned. I'm not likely to update it any time soon. Sorry mate, good luck with the search
Based on your card choices, I assume this is a multi-player list?
That would be a correct assumption
Quote from urdjur »
Lands: I think you should play more swamps and less unneeded non-basics. Rupture Spire, Transguild Promenade, Barren Moor, Sejiri Steppe, Desert and Quicksand (you have access to black after all) could all be cut easily IMO.
This is probably a good point. Playing lots of non basics is something of a novelty for me at the moment though after being limited in how many i could play in regular mono colour decks. I can see having to go basic heavy happening though.
Quote from urdjur »
Dudes: I really recommend Gangrenous Zombies at least. Without access to blue bounce/flicker, I'd cut Cadaver Imp and Gravedigger.
The only reason I didn't include Gangrenous Zombies was I didn't have the snow lands. Do You think it's worth it without the snow lands? I could see the Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp going, they only got included when i noticed how light on dudes the deck was.
Quote from urdjur »
Artifacts: Relic of Progenitus -> Nihil Spellbomb. Explorer's Scope -> Wayfarer's Bauble (both could be run). I had forgotten about Pristine Talisman - must include in my list. I don't think Manalith is good enough to be run in 2-color, but to each his own.
Oddly enough I didn't have a spare Nihil Spellbomb floating around or I probably would have gone that way. I'll run the relic til I can get the spellbomb. I've gotta disagree with You about the Explorer's Scope cut, I don't know how good it'll be in this deck admittedly but it's been fantastic for me in other decks. I'm glad I was able to help You a little with the Pristine Talisman thing. I like Manalith, if nothing else it's another black mana when I need it.
Quote from urdjur »
Enchantments: Blessing of leaches is an interesting choice. Care to elaborate on that? Wouldn't something like Inviolability be better for mass damage survival with benefits? Personally I just run Cho-Manno's Blessing and call it a day.
The idea behind Blessing of Leaches was just to put it on Crypt Rats to keep it's self alive. Pestilence strategies are looking like they're going to be everywhere in my playgroup so I've probably gone a little overboard on the protective enchantments. I figure that when I'm building this deck around Pestilence effects and I know there's going to be a Crypt Rats deck getting played it was better to start heavy and make cuts.
Quote from urdjur »
Instants: Argivian Find is uncommon. Seal of Cleansing > Disenchant due to what card types you can recur. Rootborn Defenses is an interesting option to make sweepers one-sided, but I don't think you have enough dudes you want to keep in play to justify it. Alabaster Potion isn't very good compared to what's available. I'd run at least Sun's Bounty, Sunspring Expedition and Rest for the Weary before it (I consider those three mandatory life gain/finishers for Vizkopa).
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll cut it for Castigate for now til I have time to dig through my boxes again. I went with Disenchant because it was what I had on hand, I do wanna swap it for a seal. Rootborn Defenses was another consideration for all the pestilence effects, it could probably be cut since I have a heap of protective enchantments. I'll have to have a look through my white box again for some of those cheap life gain options. I really didn't do much research there, this deck was more about wanting to play the pestilence effects but I guess there's no reason not to make more use of the general.
Quote from urdjur »
Sorcery: Morbid Hunger is bad. I'd run Corrupt and Tendrils of Corruption over it. I prefer Ray of Distortion over Iona's Judgment - you have so much creature removal already.
Morbid Hunger got in over the other options mostly because of the mana base. I know it's not the best option. I didn't know About Ray of Distortion, I'll have to have a look for it.
Quote from urdjur »
Hope that helps. Have you tried it out yet?
It helps a lot mate. Thanks. You've given me much to think about. I haven't tried it yet. My group starts our pauper games next week.
That's cool, I've used the Drake-SPAM plan a few times, and it's a nice plan. Thespian's stage seems sick, let me know how it goes.
P.S. It's Timmy.
I didn't know You were on here Timmy. Thespian's Stage has been pretty good so far. I'm finding I mostly use it as legendary land destruction for stuff like Gaea's Cradle but doing things like copy Cabal Coffers when somebody has urborg out is pretty spicy too
1 Auriok Salvagers
LAND
20 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Bant Panorama
1 Esper Panorama
1 Naya Panorama
1 Drifting Meadow
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Remote Farm
1 Ancient Den
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Desert
1 Quicksand
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Haunted Fengraf
DUDES
1 Arcbound Worker
1 Auramancer
1 Brass Gnat
1 Court Humunculus
1 Kor Cartographer
1 Leonin Elder
1 Leoning Squire
1 Loxodon Mender
1 Myr Moonvessel
1 Ornithopter
1 Phyrexian Walker
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Pteron Ghost
1 Razorgrass Screen
1 Sanctum Gargoyle
1 Shield Sphere
1 Soldevi Sentry
1 Steel Wall
1 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
1 Angelic Renewal
1 Arrest
1 Bonds of Faith
1 Cho-Manno's Blessing
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pentarch Ward
INSTANTS
1 Apostle's Blessing
1 Frantic Salvage
1 Ray of Distortion
SORCERIES
1 Mine Excavation
1 Remember the Fallen
1 Ritual of Restoration
ARTIFACTS
1 Adventuring Gear
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Blazing Torch
1 Bonesplitter
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Chromatic Star
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Dispeller's Capsule
1 Expedition Map
1 Explorer's Scope
1 Flayer Husk
1 Manalith
1 Mindstone
1 Origin Spellbomb
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Runed Stalactite
1 Scroll of Avacyn
1 Scroll of Griselbrand
1 Slagwurm Armor
1 Strider Harness
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Tablet of Epityr
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Traveler's Amulet
1 Urza's Chalice
1 Viridian Longbow
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Wanderer's Twig
1 Welding Jar
1 Whispersilk Cloak
That's pretty much what i found. I also found it was just too slow
I went with a few of these effects to give me a way to deal with thing I didn't want being reccured. I also didn't want to go all in on My general as my only removal.
Fair enough. I think it's worth trying but I could be wrong. I'll find out later when I go for a game
My main idea here was Lymph Sliver would be amazing with Pestilence and I really wanted to be able to find it.
1 Necrotic Sliver
LAND
10 Plains
10 Swamps
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Esper Panorama
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Rupture Spire
1 Command Tower
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Desert
1 Quicksand
1 Haunted Fengraf
SLIVERS
1 Metallic Sliver
1 Venser's Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Sidewinder Sliver
1 Watcher Sliver
1 Lymph Sliver
1 Plated Sliver
1 Sinew Sliver
1 Poultice Sliver
1 Changeling Sentinel
1 Avian Changeling
1 Frenzy Sliver
1 Crypt Sliver
1 Clot Sliver
1 Basal Sliver
1 Spitting Sliver
1 Mindlash Sliver
1 Skeletal Changeling
1 Moonglove Changeling
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Moriok Replica
1 Crypt Rats
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Phyrexian Rager
1 Auramancer
1 Guardian of the Guildpact
1 Dromad Purebreed
1 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
ENCHANTMENTS
1 Weight of Conscience
1 Faith's Fetter's
1 Angelic Renewal
1 Unhallowed Pact
1 Shade's Form
1 Casting of Bones
1 Pestilence
INSTANTS
1 Unmake
1 Coordinated Barrage
1 Pack's Disdain
1 Death Denied
1 Altar's Reap
1 Grim Harvest
1 Shred Memory
SORCERIES
1 Remember the Fallen
1 Mine Excavation
1 Aphetto Dredging
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Urborg Uprising
1 Shattered Crypt
1 Sign in Blood
1 Skulltap
1 Syphon Mind
1 Unnerve
1 Raven's Crime
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Brainspoil
1 Expedition Map
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Manalith
1 Explorer's Scope
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Mind Stone
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Nihil Spellbomb
You make some good points here mate. I'll talk to the guys about it and see if they're cool with it
I thought about putting it in there but as You've guessed, the list feels too tight and I don't really have a use for infinite mana other than Capsize everybody back to the stone age. The deck is really stong without it anyway. I haven't lost a game with this deck yet.
My group also got into pauper to get away from all the crazy combo b.s for a while so They wouldn't have been happy with me if I put it in and managed to get it off.
Cool! Let Me know how You go with it. It's been fantastic for Me so far. I've played 5 5 player games with it so far and it's undefeated
I wouldn't mind getting My Zameck Guildmage deck added if I can please
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=497099
That could work. I'll see if I can find them
That's pretty much what I'm thinking. The protection should be enough.
I'll let You know how it goes mate. That sounds like a solid game plan and is probably similar to the approach I'll use
That's an interesting list robtheman. What are the rules for Your group? I'm seeing a lot of uncommons and even a rare in that list
I haven't played this deck for a really long time. If I was going to update it I'd start with the 3 cards You mentioned. I'm not likely to update it any time soon. Sorry mate, good luck with the search
That would be a correct assumption
This is probably a good point. Playing lots of non basics is something of a novelty for me at the moment though after being limited in how many i could play in regular mono colour decks. I can see having to go basic heavy happening though.
The only reason I didn't include Gangrenous Zombies was I didn't have the snow lands. Do You think it's worth it without the snow lands? I could see the Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp going, they only got included when i noticed how light on dudes the deck was.
Oddly enough I didn't have a spare Nihil Spellbomb floating around or I probably would have gone that way. I'll run the relic til I can get the spellbomb. I've gotta disagree with You about the Explorer's Scope cut, I don't know how good it'll be in this deck admittedly but it's been fantastic for me in other decks. I'm glad I was able to help You a little with the Pristine Talisman thing. I like Manalith, if nothing else it's another black mana when I need it.
The idea behind Blessing of Leaches was just to put it on Crypt Rats to keep it's self alive. Pestilence strategies are looking like they're going to be everywhere in my playgroup so I've probably gone a little overboard on the protective enchantments. I figure that when I'm building this deck around Pestilence effects and I know there's going to be a Crypt Rats deck getting played it was better to start heavy and make cuts.
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll cut it for Castigate for now til I have time to dig through my boxes again. I went with Disenchant because it was what I had on hand, I do wanna swap it for a seal. Rootborn Defenses was another consideration for all the pestilence effects, it could probably be cut since I have a heap of protective enchantments. I'll have to have a look through my white box again for some of those cheap life gain options. I really didn't do much research there, this deck was more about wanting to play the pestilence effects but I guess there's no reason not to make more use of the general.
Morbid Hunger got in over the other options mostly because of the mana base. I know it's not the best option. I didn't know About Ray of Distortion, I'll have to have a look for it.
It helps a lot mate. Thanks. You've given me much to think about. I haven't tried it yet. My group starts our pauper games next week.
1 Zameck Guildmage
LAND
10 Forest
10 Island
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Simic Guildgate
1 Command Tower
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Bant Panorama
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tree of Tales
1 Halimar Depths
1 Desert
1 Quicksand
1 Haunted Fengraf
DUDES WITH COUNTERS
1 Simic Initiate
1 Sporeback Troll
1 Cytospawn Shambler
1 Aquastrand Spider
1 Helium Squirter
1 Vigean Hydropon
1 Shambleshark
1 Clinging Anemones
1 Cloudfin Raptor
1 Adaptive Snapjaw
1 Crocanura
1 Fertilid
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Ivy Lane Denizen
1 Krosan Restorer
1 Archaeomancer
1 Scrivener
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Aether Adept
1 Trinket Mage
1 Mulldrifter
1 Vedalken Aethermage
1 Drift of Phantasms
ENCHANTMENTS
1 Rhystic Study
1 Freed from the Real
ARTIFACTS
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Explorer's Scope
1 Expedition Map
1 Mindstone
1 Simic Signet
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Darksteel Ingot
INSTANTS
1 Brainstorm
1 Think Twice
1 Capsize
1 Into the Roil
1 Counterspell
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Cancel
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Fuel for the Cause
1 Traumatic Visions
1 Evolution Charm
1 Reclaim
1 Bioshift
1 Wildwood Rebirth
1 Steady Progress
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Temporal Spring
1 Undo
1 Time Ebb
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Train of Thought
1 Last Thoughts
1 Deep Analysis
1 Thoughtcast
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Hands of Binding
1 Inaction Injunction
1 Elven Cache
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Cultivate
1 Vizkopa Guildmage
LAND
10 Plains
10 Swamp
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Esper Panorama
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Command Tower
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Desert
1 Quicksand
DUDES
1 Kingpin's Pet
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Moriok Replica
1 Urborg Syphon-Mage
1 Basilica Screecher
1 Syndicate Enforcer
1 Phyrexian Rager
1 Crypt Rats
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Dromad Purebred
1 Children of Korlis
1 Syndic of Tithes
1 Basilica Guards
1 Auramancer
1 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
1 Guardian of the Guildpact
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Explorer's Scope
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Expedition Map
1 Mind Stone
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Manalith
ENCHANTMENTS
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Angelic Renewal
1 Sunspring Expedition
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pentarch Ward
1 Cho-Manno's Blessing
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Pestilence
1 Casting of Bones
1 Unhallowed Pact
INSTANTS
1 Murder
1 Snuff Out
1 Unmake
1 Grim Harvest
1 Death Denied
1 Shred Memory
1 Altar's Reap
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Sun's Bounty
1 Congregate
1 Alabaster Potion
1 Sign in Blood
1 Skulltap
1 Syphon Mind
1 Unnerve
1 Blood Tithe
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Grave Exchange
1 Shattered Crypt
1 Brainspoil
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Urborg Uprising
1 Mine Excavation
1 Remember the Fallen
1 Solemn Offering
1 Iona's Judgment
1 Invisible Stalker
LAND
20 Snow-Covered Island
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Remote Isle
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Bant Panorama
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Esper Panorama
1 Saprazzan Skerry
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Quicksand
1 Halimar Depths
1 Desert
DUDES
1 Scroll Thief
1 Stealer of Secrets
1 Merchant of Secrets
1 Vedalken Aethermage
1 Mulldrifter
1 Ophidian
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Archaeomancer
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Scrivener
1 Aether Adept
1 Trinket Mage
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Hands of Binding
1 Inaction Injunction
1 Undo
1 Time Ebb
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Train of Thought
1 Last Thoughts
1 Deep Analysis
1 Thoughtcast
INSTANTS
1 Brainstorm
1 Think Twice
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Echoing Truth
1 Into the Roil
1 Rescind
1 Capsize
1 Counterspell
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Arcane Denial
1 Cancel
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Rewind
1 Traumatic Visions
ENCHANTMENTS
1 Rhystic Study
1 Eel Umbra
1 Spectral Flight
1 Viscerid Armor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Expedition Map
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Mindstone
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Manalith
EQUIPMENT
1 Bone Saw
1 Explorer's Scope
1 Copper Carapace
1 Bonesplitter
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Leonin Scimitar
1 Adventuring Gear
1 Flayer Husk
1 Skybinder Satff
1 Vulshok Morningstar
1 Riot Gear
1 Kitesail
1 Bladed Bracers
1 Heavy Mattock
I didn't know You were on here Timmy. Thespian's Stage has been pretty good so far. I'm finding I mostly use it as legendary land destruction for stuff like Gaea's Cradle but doing things like copy Cabal Coffers when somebody has urborg out is pretty spicy too
+ 1 Snow-Covered Plains