So when should you file for reimbursement for oubliette? Do you have to destroy it? Do you have to have the means to destroy it? Would you be justified just by having it played against you?
This bug effects you 100% of the time it is played against you wether you have the means to deal with it or not. At least with Torch you can only be effected by your opponent so in a lot of situations the bug is irrelevant and the card functions as intended.
If you could have a way to bounce or destroy it, I think. Or if your opponent abuses the bug obviously. I mean really any time you have it played against you, you could. You could argue that your sideboard would be constructed differently if not for the bug, which caused you to lose the match due to having to play and sideboard subpar.
You could actually make the same argument as the Oubliette player as long as you played another color saying you wanted to Oubliette your Gray Merchant then nuke the Oubliette to reuse his devotion trigger. You're perfectly justified in my first argument, the second might be a bit of a stretch though.
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Why is he running a single Dream Stalker then? Wouldent he have better removal options then Oubliette for removal? Its kind of hard to believe that he is completly innocent in all of this. At least with mono black they have legitimate reason to run an inferior removal spell since it counts toward devotion.
And to all the people who say just file for a refund this guy was 4-0 so he took packs away from at least one person and potentially others. If the situation does not come up in a match people would not even know that they were cheated by someone exploiting a bug to make it into their round.
Some games ban players and close their accounts for exploiting bugs. Does mtgo have any rules related to exploiting bugs?
Oubliette isn't bad when you consider resilient threats like Loyal Cathar and Stormbound Geist are seeing lots of play
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http://mtgo-stats.com/decks/82727 - This guy is specifically abusing the bug with Ghostly Flicker, and I'd certainly file for reimbursement if he did that to me.
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There's still only one person who really likes the name Eye Candy. I put a boycott on that name and always call it DelverFiend regardless on whether it even has Delvers.
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1. 1 toughness things suck against them. Flanking Sliver means you can't even successfully chump trade their Hive Stirring tokens. So Liliana's Specter and Ravenous Rats aren't usually very good.
2. Cuombajj Witches are awesome at keeping control of the board once you have it. Play them. Witches make sure you can't get overwhelmed by a single lord when you don't have removal in hand.
3. Try to save your Unearths for Crypt Rats. Crypt Rats are your reset button, I'd actually run another maindeck if you can afford them. Use your best judgement here though, sometimes it's totally worth it to Unearth a Chittering Rats, which can slow their development a ton. I particularly like doing this when they're waiting for you to crack your Crypt Rats before they play out anything else in your hand.
4. Keep in mind that you can kill the lords and the effects are instantly lost, which can give you profitable blocks. Always trade if possible - this matchup is about resource management and your 2-for-1's should eventually take over the game long enough to get Gray Merchant online and kill them.
5. Corrupt is too slow. Sideboard it out.
6. Rancid Earth is 3 weeks late to the party, take it out of your sideboard.
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I know Daze has been a bit of a hot topic in the past but I have been having a lot of success with it since the ban and have been running 3 lately. There was a recent daily deck that ran 4 but I dont think im ready to go that far
Its been huge for me against the mono black decks, which I seem to play against twice per daily, since their curve is so high. Its also not uncomon to counter the spell they play to draw your counter when you have 2 up and then Daze the spell they were trying to get through
Edit: when playing against mono black do you play out your hand quick to avoid discarding or chittering rats or do you try to hold cards to represent a counter? I have been playing out my hand if its not a counter to prevent them from getting value. My thought is that if they play a discard effect you may gain some small value if they could have made a better play that turn but if it is chittering rats its a hugh blowout if your holding a land to bluff.
MBC players aren't going to hold the Rats in hand ever. They will play out the Rats cause getting discard Rats countered doesn't matter. Crypt Rats matter, and removal or Sign in Blood matter.
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Team Name: Sneaky Little Green Men Captain: cweaver E-Mail: [email]cweaver8518@yahoo.com[/email] Team Members: sneakattackkid, drinkard Alternate: None as of yet
On Vines: it's probably too cute honestly. Worth a shot, like the Brainstorm / Squadron Hawk deck Goliat2 has been running, but probably still too cute.
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I was impressed with him, he turned the tides on a Delver match(against Mezzel no less), and would have won me the game against Slivers had my opponent not literally topdecked the worst card for me 6 turns in a row.
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Not to drag this thread off topic too far, but that's just inaccurate. The only one of those matchups that's truly bad is MBC. Elves and Affinity are very favorable opponents for Boros Kitty and Stompy and MUC are close to even. You guys are also ignoring that Boros Kitty crushes Delver decks and is very strong against Cyclops/Fiend as well which are two of the most popular decks at the moment. I'd be happy to elaborate more elsewhere why these matchups are better than you think as I've played with the deck a lot, but I don't want to turn an Orzhov thread into a R/W artifacts discussion.
As for your Orzhov Kitty, I'm not seeing the allure. You make your Delver and Fiend matchups worse to be better against Elves and Affinity (already favorable opponents anyways) and you're probably worse against MUC now too. Losing Pyroblast is a pretty big blow in the Delver, MUC, Fiend matchups. You're arguably not any better against Stompy either since you lose out on all the cheap 1 mana removal (though to be fair Crypt Rats is a useful addition so it could perhaps go either way). I also don't see Orzhov Kitty fairing any better against MBC than Boros does. You're basically running a less consistent version of MBC with your deck as is. Another issue with Orzhov Kitty is you lose out on the draw engine of Faithless Looting. These cantrip heavy decks can flood a lot and it's nice to have some way to turn these excess lands into useful cards. Your Orzhov list has no way to mitigate flooding and is a big strike against it I think.
Honestly you're probably right. I haven't played as the Boros pilot, but it sure seemed pretty one-sided to me when I was running Delver or Stompy, which are my two primary decks. Also seems that Cyclops should beat you as long as they have the Apostle's Blessing/Artful Dodge/whatever evasive thing to combo off. Edicts help get rid of that to an extent. I don't think this is any better or worse against Cyclops than BorosKitty.
Never thought about the loss of Looting really, I sort of considered the Crypt Rats/Corrupt to be flood insurance.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to play this deck over BorosKitty, obviously it's not tuned as well as BorosKitty. I've watched some of your replays as a BorosKitty pilot and I do think you're very much better than the average pilot of that deck though. This may be why I never considered BorosKitty very good, because I never really came up against a good pilot of it.
No I was being serious, it's getting to the point where cop X is pretty much better than any other white sb card. Mono black/red cant deal nivix cant deal, stompy/hexproof if unexpected cant deal etc etc.
Ah well, I like Journeys too. They get rid of creatures you're worried about opponents recurring, like Young Wolf or Safehold Elite, and can help against MBC. CoP Green probably isn't needed.
cweaver, I appreciate your input into this deck and you have convinced me that Cuombajj Witches > Phyrexian Rager, especially with the "Kitty package". However, I am not entirely sold on 12 cantripping artifacts. I personally have been running 6 (+2 Nihil Spellbombs) and haven't yet missed a Glint Hawk. I do also believe Corrupt is a necessary evil to make the mirror matches closer to even. The problem with mirror or B/x still is that even the best timed spellbomb is countered if our opponent has the mana/removal to remove a creature and retrieve grim harvest.
Could you also let me know why you are running Scholar of Atheros and Unearth? Which matchups do you think this improves over other cards.
Are you in favor of COP: Green over Standard Bearer?
Scholar is really nice against Delver, as is Unearth. Every creature in the deck can be Unearthed for additional value(Glint Hawks/Skyfishers to bounce the cantripping artifacts, reuse Crypt Rats on a board where opponent swarmed you again) or to overcome Counterspells or removal. Unearth is just good. Scholar may not be good enough, but it blocks Ninjas all day long and doesn't care about Faeries pinging you in the air, because you regain lost life every turn.
Standard Bearer is probably better, given it needs no additional mana to be good. I worry about it getting Journey'ed in hexproof though, and getting swarmed by Stompy. I don't know whether one is better than the other. I suppose Stompy could also possibly bring in Gleeful against all your artifacts though.
I should reiterate again, I'm not planning on taking this to a daily. It's a brew and a thought experiment that I undertook when I encountered a guy in the practice room(Usefuluser1) and told him I'd look into the deck and see where I could improve what he was trying to run.
Re: twitter conversation that I wasn't included in - pretty sure I mentioned in my very first post on this thread: "Elsewhere Flask may be too cute, but the theory is that Crypt Rats or Corrupt can finish the game off after your Glint Hawks and Skyfishers get in. Cuombajj Witches and Doom Blades should be able to get your dudes through."
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Forgot to edit out the Doom Blades. Those should be 2 Tragic Slip 2 Disfigure.
I already said the Corrupt / Elsewhere Flask combo is probably too cute. That's fine, but it does give you a way to end the game very quickly, the same way that BorosKitty can with it's burn spells. You can also Elsewhere Flask / Crypt Rats.
Also sarcasm doesn't convey well in text. Just say what you mean, I can take it.
Also the BorosKitty loses to those decks, Crypt Rats makes alot of those matches much better.
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Seems alright, but why not just play the rw build that does well? It took me a 2nd to figure out why you aren't just playing MBC, considering every card you list off is black (also 6 swamps + corrupt?), but then I see your sb is all white. Ironically, I don't see how the new list does any better vs mono black which was the worry of that poster. (Also 6 swamps + corrupt?) On the good side cweaver you're not running the following cards I saw in other lists in the past posts
moriok replica
totem-guide hartebeest
rune of protection black (md)
sicken
wall of hope
dimir house guard
yoke of the damned
Also the sb playing cop red over rop red is defy an improvement Also I <3'ed the mana base of no plains with 2x double white spells. So thank you for improving that. On the bad side 6 swamps + corrupt? But seriously, nihil spellbomb is probably better than relic considering you're on unearths and nihil is one-sided. Furthermore, as said earlier the person who asked you to work on that list was losing to MBC, 4x doom blade actually guarantee you'll be chittering rats'ed 85% of the time. Which might as well be 100% etc etc. I honestly believe doom blade can't be Md'able for anything right now, while MBC is expected to be a tier 1 deck. Many many mirrors have been lost by spinning darknesses getting stuck. I'm just assuming that you're trying to tell this guy to play mbc, with all of the BB and crypt rats etc, but are being too nice to say it outright. (6 swamps + corrupt?) But seriously, players MBC does all of the things your decklists can do + better CA creatures, better disruption etc. It loses the white sb, although you're using it for cop red for kiln fiend.dec which mbc is 80-20 vs anyway and all is dust for affinity which mbc is still favored. Also one last time. 6 swamps + corrupt?
Thanks for the input!
The BorosKitty version can be hated by Hydroblast, which is my biggest issue with it. It can also be swarmed by Stompy, Elves, Affinity, from what I've seen. It also has just a straight up awful matchup against MUC. Unearth, Crypt Rats, and the Cuombajj Witches are the primary reasons I want to run OrzhovKitty. The Glint Hawks and Kor Skyfishers are also just nice evasive threats against any deck. Ravenous Rats and Chittering Rats are pretty easy to block, even backed up by removal, I just wanted something more evasive and gains me cards rather than removing opponent's cards.
COP Red works vs. Burn and Cyclops and Goblins.
You're right on the Dust to Dust, I've since removed it since Affinity shouldn't be an issue.
Totally right on the Nihil Spellbombs, will make that change too. Didn't even think about it.
I've removed Doom Blades in favor of some number of Disfigure/Tragic Slip. Not entirely sure on the numbers there yet. Might just move the Journeys to the main and those to the side. There's something to be said for instant speed though.
White has stronger sideboard options and I think better threats, but the mana awkwardness may not be worth it. That's my biggest issue with the deck. I've removed Basilicas and shifted over to Vault of Whispers in the main instead, with one more Kabira Crossroads. The Crossroads are a real life saver against the aggro decks.
Also in case you missed it, Elsewhere Flask + Corrupt doesn't care how many Swamps you have
I have played a variant in two of the post banning dailies. Surprisingly, I have yet to run into an aggro deck. What I have found is that my list gets owned by MBC or any B/x variant - Grim Harvest just does too much.
My sideboard obviously needs work. I've ran into Eye Candy both dailies and Circle of Protection: Red just makes them cry. MBC and B/x Trinket, Teachings, whatever is an awful matchup IMO. Maybe Pestilence would solve part of this problem, even Circle of Protection: Black? Grim Harvest just does too much in the late game for them.
I will continue to test the creature base as well - running 2's of different cards doesn't seem as efficient as I'd like.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Told you I'd look into this. I'm not a brewer but here's my take on it, bringing in the "Kitty" engine. I've ran 3 matches with this so far, and it may just be too cute. The mana is awful right now cause I just threw it together, but Prisms help smooth out the colors if I need it.
Sideboard is also in the works, but here are some thoughts:
Cuombajj Witches I think are necessary to fight Delver.
Elsewhere Flask may be too cute, but the theory is that Crypt Rats or Corrupt can finish the game off after your Glint Hawks and Skyfishers get in. Cuombajj Witches and Doom Blades should be able to get your dudes through.
Bojuka Bogs and Relics should take care of your UB issues.
If you could have a way to bounce or destroy it, I think. Or if your opponent abuses the bug obviously. I mean really any time you have it played against you, you could. You could argue that your sideboard would be constructed differently if not for the bug, which caused you to lose the match due to having to play and sideboard subpar.
You could actually make the same argument as the Oubliette player as long as you played another color saying you wanted to Oubliette your Gray Merchant then nuke the Oubliette to reuse his devotion trigger. You're perfectly justified in my first argument, the second might be a bit of a stretch though.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Oubliette isn't bad when you consider resilient threats like Loyal Cathar and Stormbound Geist are seeing lots of play
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Yeah, you're right. Flicker can't hit enchantments, I'm dumb. But he can use Capsize too
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Fires :symr:f Salvation
1. 1 toughness things suck against them. Flanking Sliver means you can't even successfully chump trade their Hive Stirring tokens. So Liliana's Specter and Ravenous Rats aren't usually very good.
2. Cuombajj Witches are awesome at keeping control of the board once you have it. Play them. Witches make sure you can't get overwhelmed by a single lord when you don't have removal in hand.
3. Try to save your Unearths for Crypt Rats. Crypt Rats are your reset button, I'd actually run another maindeck if you can afford them. Use your best judgement here though, sometimes it's totally worth it to Unearth a Chittering Rats, which can slow their development a ton. I particularly like doing this when they're waiting for you to crack your Crypt Rats before they play out anything else in your hand.
4. Keep in mind that you can kill the lords and the effects are instantly lost, which can give you profitable blocks. Always trade if possible - this matchup is about resource management and your 2-for-1's should eventually take over the game long enough to get Gray Merchant online and kill them.
5. Corrupt is too slow. Sideboard it out.
6. Rancid Earth is 3 weeks late to the party, take it out of your sideboard.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
MBC players aren't going to hold the Rats in hand ever. They will play out the Rats cause getting discard Rats countered doesn't matter. Crypt Rats matter, and removal or Sign in Blood matter.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Captain: cweaver
E-Mail: [email]cweaver8518@yahoo.com[/email]
Team Members: sneakattackkid, drinkard
Alternate: None as of yet
Decklists:
Stompy by drinkard
4 nettle sentinel
4 quirion ranger
3 safehold elite
2 scattershot archer
3 shinen of life's roar
4 silhanna ledgewalker
4 skarrgan pit skulk
4 young wolf
3 hunger of the howlpack
4 rancor
4 vines of vastwood
1 bonesplitter
3 fog
4 gleeful sabotage
2 nourish
2 relic of progenitus
1 scattershot archer
1 tranquility
1 viridian longbow
MBC by Sneakattackkid
2 Polluted Mire
16 Swamp
Creatures
3 Cuombajj Witches
3 Ravenous Rats
4 Chittering Rats
3 Crypt Rats
4 Phyrexian Rager
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
3 Dead Weight
2 Duress
3 Unearth
1 Echoing Decay
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Sign in Blood
2 Victim of Night
1 Cuombajj Witches
1 Victim of Night
3 Devour Flesh
3 Shrivel
4 Tendrils of Corruption
3 Wrench Mind
Elves by cweaver
1 Island
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Mystic
2 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Heart Warden
4 Priest of Titania
3 Sylvan Ranger
4 Wellwisher
4 Timberwatch Elf
4 Llanowar Sentinel
4 Distant Melody
3 Gleeful Sabotage
3 Moment's Peace
4 Scattershot Archer
1 Serene Heart
1 Viridian Longbow
3 Wrap in Vigor
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Fires :symr:f Salvation
I was impressed with him, he turned the tides on a Delver match(against Mezzel no less), and would have won me the game against Slivers had my opponent not literally topdecked the worst card for me 6 turns in a row.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Honestly you're probably right. I haven't played as the Boros pilot, but it sure seemed pretty one-sided to me when I was running Delver or Stompy, which are my two primary decks. Also seems that Cyclops should beat you as long as they have the Apostle's Blessing/Artful Dodge/whatever evasive thing to combo off. Edicts help get rid of that to an extent. I don't think this is any better or worse against Cyclops than BorosKitty.
Never thought about the loss of Looting really, I sort of considered the Crypt Rats/Corrupt to be flood insurance.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to play this deck over BorosKitty, obviously it's not tuned as well as BorosKitty. I've watched some of your replays as a BorosKitty pilot and I do think you're very much better than the average pilot of that deck though. This may be why I never considered BorosKitty very good, because I never really came up against a good pilot of it.
Ah well, I like Journeys too. They get rid of creatures you're worried about opponents recurring, like Young Wolf or Safehold Elite, and can help against MBC. CoP Green probably isn't needed.
Scholar is really nice against Delver, as is Unearth. Every creature in the deck can be Unearthed for additional value(Glint Hawks/Skyfishers to bounce the cantripping artifacts, reuse Crypt Rats on a board where opponent swarmed you again) or to overcome Counterspells or removal. Unearth is just good. Scholar may not be good enough, but it blocks Ninjas all day long and doesn't care about Faeries pinging you in the air, because you regain lost life every turn.
Standard Bearer is probably better, given it needs no additional mana to be good. I worry about it getting Journey'ed in hexproof though, and getting swarmed by Stompy. I don't know whether one is better than the other. I suppose Stompy could also possibly bring in Gleeful against all your artifacts though.
I should reiterate again, I'm not planning on taking this to a daily. It's a brew and a thought experiment that I undertook when I encountered a guy in the practice room(Usefuluser1) and told him I'd look into the deck and see where I could improve what he was trying to run.
Re: twitter conversation that I wasn't included in - pretty sure I mentioned in my very first post on this thread: "Elsewhere Flask may be too cute, but the theory is that Crypt Rats or Corrupt can finish the game off after your Glint Hawks and Skyfishers get in. Cuombajj Witches and Doom Blades should be able to get your dudes through."
Fires :symr:f Salvation
I already said the Corrupt / Elsewhere Flask combo is probably too cute. That's fine, but it does give you a way to end the game very quickly, the same way that BorosKitty can with it's burn spells. You can also Elsewhere Flask / Crypt Rats.
Also sarcasm doesn't convey well in text. Just say what you mean, I can take it.
Also the BorosKitty loses to those decks, Crypt Rats makes alot of those matches much better.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Thanks for the input!
The BorosKitty version can be hated by Hydroblast, which is my biggest issue with it. It can also be swarmed by Stompy, Elves, Affinity, from what I've seen. It also has just a straight up awful matchup against MUC. Unearth, Crypt Rats, and the Cuombajj Witches are the primary reasons I want to run OrzhovKitty. The Glint Hawks and Kor Skyfishers are also just nice evasive threats against any deck. Ravenous Rats and Chittering Rats are pretty easy to block, even backed up by removal, I just wanted something more evasive and gains me cards rather than removing opponent's cards.
COP Red works vs. Burn and Cyclops and Goblins.
You're right on the Dust to Dust, I've since removed it since Affinity shouldn't be an issue.
Totally right on the Nihil Spellbombs, will make that change too. Didn't even think about it.
I've removed Doom Blades in favor of some number of Disfigure/Tragic Slip. Not entirely sure on the numbers there yet. Might just move the Journeys to the main and those to the side. There's something to be said for instant speed though.
White has stronger sideboard options and I think better threats, but the mana awkwardness may not be worth it. That's my biggest issue with the deck. I've removed Basilicas and shifted over to Vault of Whispers in the main instead, with one more Kabira Crossroads. The Crossroads are a real life saver against the aggro decks.
Also in case you missed it, Elsewhere Flask + Corrupt doesn't care how many Swamps you have
Updated decklist:
4 Kabira Crossroads
2 Plains
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Glint Hawk
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 Cuombajj Witches
2 Kor Sanctifiers
3 Crypt Rats
1 Scholar of Athreos
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Ichor Wellspring
2 Tragic Slip
2 Disfigure
3 Corrupt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Journey to Nowhere
3 Circle of Protection: Green
1 Reaping the Graves
2 Kor Sanctifiers
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Told you I'd look into this. I'm not a brewer but here's my take on it, bringing in the "Kitty" engine. I've ran 3 matches with this so far, and it may just be too cute. The mana is awful right now cause I just threw it together, but Prisms help smooth out the colors if I need it.
4 Ancient Den
3 Kabira Crossroads
2 Plains
2 Bojuka Bog
6 Swamp
4 Glint Hawk
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 Cuombajj Witches
2 Kor Sanctifiers
3 Crypt Rats
1 Scholar of Athreos
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Doom Blade
3 Corrupt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Journey to Nowhere
3 Dust to Dust
1 Reaping the Graves
2 Kor Sanctifiers
Sideboard is also in the works, but here are some thoughts:
Cuombajj Witches I think are necessary to fight Delver.
Elsewhere Flask may be too cute, but the theory is that Crypt Rats or Corrupt can finish the game off after your Glint Hawks and Skyfishers get in. Cuombajj Witches and Doom Blades should be able to get your dudes through.
Bojuka Bogs and Relics should take care of your UB issues.
Sideboard may need more hexproof hate - Patrician's Scorn or Leave No Trace perhaps.
Fires :symr:f Salvation