Everyone's missing the most important rule here: The moment Quicksilver Elemental becomes a copy of an animated Gideon, it dies because it's a planeswalker with zero loyalty counters on it. State-based effects will put it in the graveyard before you have a chance to activate any loyalty abilities, period.
Incorrect. When a card becomes a copy of another card, it only copied printed text - not current state. And Quicksilver isn't becoming an actual planeswalker, its just gaining the abilities of one, so it isn't checking state-based loyalty effects anyway.
Erk. I should really read the cards in question. People kept using the words "becoming a copy", which isn't what's happening here at all. If it were actually becoming a copy -- say, if it were Shapesharer's ability rather than Quicksilver Elemental's -- then yes, it would copy the printed characteristics of Gideon, become a planeswalker, and immediately die. As it is, it would gain the loyalty abilities and only be able to use one of them a turn, thanks to Rule 606.
This combo would be far better with Gideon Jura as he actually has a worthwhile ability to use even if his loyalty counters keep getting reset ( -2: destroy target tapped creature). So with Gideon Jura, Quicksilver elemental and Deadeye Navigator you would have UU1: Destroy target tapped creature, I suppose that isn't worst but it seems like quite a bit of a bother to set up
That doesn't work. If Quicksilver Elemental has been freshly blinked with Deadeye, it has zero loyalty counters on it. It doesn't magically gain any counters when it copies Gideon's abilities, so you can't activate a negative loyalty ability (with a cost of "remove x loyalty counters").
Everyone's missing the most important rule here: The moment Quicksilver Elemental becomes a copy of an animated Gideon, it dies because it's a planeswalker with zero loyalty counters on it. State-based effects will put it in the graveyard before you have a chance to activate any loyalty abilities, period.
EDIT: Derp. As Aranthar pointed out, Quicksilver isn't copying anything, just gaining abilities. Ignore this post.
It's still very rough, and will go through several revisions before it arrives at its final form. I created the deck after reading this comment and thinking that it was a silly way to win. The deck's an Oloro control deck with a side of life-total setting/exchange, complete with a bunch of ways to reduce your own life total to 1 at the drop of a hat to facilitate this sort of interaction.
Any thoughts on the deck? I'll update this post as I make changes to it.
No, a fake picture of (an OP version of) said land was posted as a Theros spoiler, and identified as fake. This doesn't rule anything out except the authenticity of that one particular (fake) photo-shop.
A number of possible spoilers have been posted for BOG in the thread I linked, including the land. One of the MODs claims to have info confirming at least one of the other cards on the list, which lends some credibility to the rest.
The current version of the first post contains a TK-421 edit with the following:
Mod Edit: A source of TK-421's has stated that:
There is a legendary Kraken, but it doesn't make more Krakens.
There isn't a legendary Minotaur.
Ferocious Charge isn't in.
Mogis is the God of Slaughter
There is a black boardwipe, and it's "strictly better than Infest". The land isn't in.
What's the minimum number of creatures that should be run in order for Domri and Garruk to be effective? I'm currently running 27 in my list, but I'm finding that I'll often miss on Domri and only pick up one or two cards on Garruk. I'm also running one mainboard Mizzium Mortars and a Clan Defiance, on the theory that aggro matchups are common enough that the added utility makes up for decreased planeswalker efficiency. Thoughts?
One thing I've seen repeatedly in the main thread is that people have been underimpressed with Scavenging Ooze. What are some good replacements? Does Boon Satyr provide enough utility/devotion to be a good swap?
Ehh, perhaps I'm missing something obvious here but:
Even if you could enchant a creature by cheating a Bestow idiot into play, I don't think a creature with Shroud is a legal target?
Completely ignoring Bestow for the moment, the thing you're missing is that only Aura spells target. An aura permanent has no target; it's just attached to something else, and Shroud doesn't get in the way of that. BlaqueJezus is correct in that if you put a regular Aura onto the battlefield via some means other than the stack, you can choose what it's attached to, even if that permanent has shroud.
That being said, if you put a Bestow card into play without casting it, it's just a creature and not an aura, so no shenanigans for you. Either way, Bestow is really, really not the kind of mechanic Enchantress is looking for.
Words of Wind is also of note as you break the symmetry with a draw effect.
Yes, but keep in mind that the primary method of abusing Words of Wind (Exploration and the old land drop rule) got more or less permanently nerfed. Now it's much harder to break the symmetry.
I have actually been playing both Moat and Sphere in my mainboard. As I've said in the past, in the early game of prison style taxing decks like Geddon Stax, I have lost to one or twocreatures getting through. I understand it should be a rarity, and in conjunction with grass they probably won't be able to attack anyway, but I still enjoy the security that Moat brings me. Keep in mind, I am a purist and rather resistant to change, it took me forever to start playing GSZ, so that is also part of my reluctance to getting rid of it.
For what it's worth, I also run both Moat and Sphere of Safety in my mainboard, but I'm no longer of the opinion that Moat is irreplacable. The prevalence of flying creatures like Delver, Clique, Angels, etc. has made it much less of a hard lockout.
I've actually built a Mishra deck, and am quite enjoying it. Though I haven't updated the post with the latest list, I do so enjoy comboing him with Possibility Storm to get free artifacts.
Sack all of your permanents until just a Solitary Confinement and Barren Glory are in play. The confinement will protect you until you cant pay the upkeep , it goes away and then Glory wins you the game.
That doesn't quite work -- you're still going to be unprotected for a turn cycle before Barren Glory wins you the game. Barren Glory won't even trigger if the Confinement exists at the beginning of your upkeep, no matter how you stack the triggers, because it's worded as an intervening if.
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Erk. I should really read the cards in question. People kept using the words "becoming a copy", which isn't what's happening here at all. If it were actually becoming a copy -- say, if it were Shapesharer's ability rather than Quicksilver Elemental's -- then yes, it would copy the printed characteristics of Gideon, become a planeswalker, and immediately die. As it is, it would gain the loyalty abilities and only be able to use one of them a turn, thanks to Rule 606.
That doesn't work. If Quicksilver Elemental has been freshly blinked with Deadeye, it has zero loyalty counters on it. It doesn't magically gain any counters when it copies Gideon's abilities, so you can't activate a negative loyalty ability (with a cost of "remove x loyalty counters").
Everyone's missing the most important rule here: The moment Quicksilver Elemental becomes a copy of an animated Gideon, it dies because it's a planeswalker with zero loyalty counters on it. State-based effects will put it in the graveyard before you have a chance to activate any loyalty abilities, period.EDIT: Derp. As Aranthar pointed out, Quicksilver isn't copying anything, just gaining abilities. Ignore this post.
I just put together a new EDH deck, so I thought I'd post it here:
1 Ajani's Pridemate
1 Drogskol Reaver
1 Rhox Faithmender
1 Vizkopa Guildmage
1 Wall of Reverence
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Polluted Bonds
1 Venser's Journal
1 Well of Lost Dreams
1 Sun Droplet
1 Exsanguinate
1 Debt to the Deathless
1 Beacon of Immortality
Life-payment cards
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Hex Parasite
1 Spellskite
1 Wall of Blood
1 Greed
1 Necropotence
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Hatred
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
Life-switch/set cards
1 Soul Conduit
1 Repay in Kind
1 Reverse the Sands
1 Magus of the Mirror
1 Sorin Markov
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Perplexing Chimera
1 Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts
1 Blind Obedience
1 Equipoise
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Righteous Aura
1 Imperial Mask
1 Propaganda
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Spell Crumple
1 Spelljack
1 Time Stop
1 Relic of Progenitus
Removal
1 Austere Command
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Return to Dust
1 Cyclonic Rift
Draw
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Honden of Seeing Winds
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Temple Bell
Acceleration
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Baleful Strix
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Claws of Gix
1 Demonic Tutor
Land (36)
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Esper Panorama
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
1 Leechridden Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Strip Mine
9 Swamp
1 Tainted Field
1 Tainted Isle
1 Watery Grave
Commander
1 Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
1 Ajani's Pridemate
1 Baleful Strix
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Drogskol Reaver
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Hex Parasite
1 Magus of the Mirror
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Perplexing Chimera
1 Rhox Faithmender
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Spellskite
1 Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts
1 Vizkopa Guildmage
1 Wall of Blood
1 Wall of Reverence
Enchantments (14)
1 Blind Obedience
1 Equipoise
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Greed
1 Honden of Seeing Winds
1 Imperial Mask
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Polluted Bonds
1 Propaganda
1 Rest in Peace
1 Righteous Aura
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Claws of Gix
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Soul Conduit
1 Sun Droplet
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Temple Bell
1 Venser's Journal
1 Well of Lost Dreams
Instants (8)
1 Beacon of Immortality
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Hatred
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Return to Dust
1 Spell Crumple
1 Spelljack
1 Time Stop
Sorceries (8)
1 Austere Command
1 Debt to the Deathless
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Exsanguinate
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Repay in Kind
1 Reverse the Sands
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sorin Markov
Land (36)
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Esper Panorama
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
1 Leechridden Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Strip Mine
9 Swamp
1 Tainted Field
1 Tainted Isle
1 Watery Grave
It's still very rough, and will go through several revisions before it arrives at its final form. I created the deck after reading this comment and thinking that it was a silly way to win. The deck's an Oloro control deck with a side of life-total setting/exchange, complete with a bunch of ways to reduce your own life total to 1 at the drop of a hat to facilitate this sort of interaction.
Any thoughts on the deck? I'll update this post as I make changes to it.
Cards I'm considering for the deck currently: Boon Reflection, Phyrexian Processor, Sanguine Bond, Solitary Confinement, Wound Reflection
The current version of the first post contains a TK-421 edit with the following:
Completely ignoring Bestow for the moment, the thing you're missing is that only Aura spells target. An aura permanent has no target; it's just attached to something else, and Shroud doesn't get in the way of that. BlaqueJezus is correct in that if you put a regular Aura onto the battlefield via some means other than the stack, you can choose what it's attached to, even if that permanent has shroud.
That being said, if you put a Bestow card into play without casting it, it's just a creature and not an aura, so no shenanigans for you. Either way, Bestow is really, really not the kind of mechanic Enchantress is looking for.
I've had some luck with Runed Halo naming Tendrils of Agony as a backup Leyline.
Yes, but keep in mind that the primary method of abusing Words of Wind (Exploration and the old land drop rule) got more or less permanently nerfed. Now it's much harder to break the symmetry.
For what it's worth, I also run both Moat and Sphere of Safety in my mainboard, but I'm no longer of the opinion that Moat is irreplacable. The prevalence of flying creatures like Delver, Clique, Angels, etc. has made it much less of a hard lockout.
I've actually built a Mishra deck, and am quite enjoying it. Though I haven't updated the post with the latest list, I do so enjoy comboing him with Possibility Storm to get free artifacts.
That doesn't quite work -- you're still going to be unprotected for a turn cycle before Barren Glory wins you the game. Barren Glory won't even trigger if the Confinement exists at the beginning of your upkeep, no matter how you stack the triggers, because it's worded as an intervening if.