Hi! You guys still here? I hear Wrenn and Sixis real good. Are any of you playing the traditional list with Wrenn and Six? How many copies are you playing? What did you take out for them?
For me, I used my forked bolt/Dismember/flex slot for 2 Wrenn and Six. It seems to work alright, although I have only played casual games with my friends with it, and I haven't really heavily play tested the list nor taken the list to any tournaments. I was hoping to fit in 1 more Wrenn and Six but I have already cut down my Tarmogoyf to 3 to fit in my 4 Daze, 3 Stifle, 3 Spell Snare and 3 Spell Pierce config. I'm not sure if I should cut a Daze for it.
If you have any comments, questions or suggestions that will be very much appreciated. I hope we can get MTG SALVATION - RUG Delver FORUMS active again.
As far as i know, storm decks is one of our best matchup, probably 80-90% in our favor. Although i haven't played legacy in a long while, i haven't really seen any card printed that will make this matchup any better for storm.
Although that percentage is based mostly on the design of the deck itself, and may brake down to the storm players favor when it comes down to pilot experience. An experienced storm player would probably be able to turn the matchup hugely in their favor vs a rug player who is not that familiar with the matchup.
From what i have experienced in the past, there are really different storm decks although they may sometimes look alike, since all they do is cast a bunch of spells, generate a bunch of mana and storm count,and kill you with a massive spell/storm triggers.
For us RUG players, we could divide these decks based on their speed/resiliency. (Although some of these decks may not be categorized as storm, i would tend to classify them as storm because of how their deck/plays make my plays/decisions in the game similar to that when i am facing storm.)*i hope that makes sense*
storm decks from Fastest to Resilient:
AllSpells-Belcher-TES-ANT-Hightide
Although one would easily be able to know which is AllSpells and which is Hightide, the problem comes when facing ANT and TES which are 2 decks that may look similar but play a whole lot of different.
usually my first few turns are crittical when facing storm and your first play may mean a win or a loss.
this is how i would play vs these decks, basically you should be control vs the fast storm deck and aggro vs the resilient storm decks. What this means for me is keeping counter mana up on the first turn vs TES even though i have a turn 1 delver, and jamming in a turn 1 delver vs ANT with no FoW or Daze protection. This is because fast storm decks are capable of generating huge storm count on the first turn requiring little to no set up, where as resilient storm decks needs to setup and tend to be able to amass a storm on turn 3 or 4 giving you something like 2 turns to brainstorm and ponder for protection needed to set up defenses, but given enough time that they could set up, when they do go for it usually there is nothing you could to stop them, which is why an early clock i think is the best play vs these decks because it forces them to go for it even if their set up is not enough.
Stifle: one of our best tools against them. ANT and TES would usually crack a fetch when you think they need one of their colors badly, maybe they need blue to brainstorm or black for their rituals, the best time to just win with stifle-a free win. Don't stifle that land. Stifle is a hard counter for their win con, that fecth is just part of their setup and stifling a fecth will buy time just a little, where as stifling their Tendrils of Agony will mean you loose 2 life instead of 24. I played storm once before and sometime i would just fetch in a way to bait opponents stifle turning that land into a duress form me, and if i know i could do it, a better storm player must also be thinking that so as a RUG player so should you. This is in no way a strict rule though. Sometimes it is the right play to just stifle their land, as in a case where you just probed them and see only one land and nothing else. But in general i would not stifle fetch lands vs storm.
Side Boarding: depends on what you have. sometimes SB will turn this matchup from 80% in RUG favor to just 40% Because of over side boarding. For me, i would just board in 2 vendilion cliques for my 2 forked bolts, and that is it. The deck is good enough as it is. Do not over sideboard.
One may sometimes want additional counters from their SB. And looking some other cards to cut from the main to fit in some more disruption, you may think of cutting lightning bolts. Do not board out lightning bolts. At worst your lbolts would be a sort of timewalk-a turns worth of delver damage. Lbolt would also mean 3 cards worth of AdNauseaum flip. And it kills xantid swarms when your opponent boards it in. Lightning bolt is not a dead card in the matchup, don't board it out. If ever you feel you need to board in something else, say - flusterstorm, envelope or red blasts, i would rather cut 2 tarmogoyfs than anything else. Tarmo is the next weakest card in the matchup i feel, 2nd only to forked bolt. But you do not want to cut them all because of how fast a clock it is and you need it to close the game fast before the storm player recovers from your disruption.
I dont board in grafdiggers cage vs storm, although i maybe wrong. I feel it is just easy for them to play around when they see it. For cage to be good you have to draw it making all other cages just redundant if you board in more than 1, and then they should be planning on winning using past in flames and nothing else, Adnause is their alternate to PiF so you should have them at low life to have it covered, and you also should have their tutors covered so they could not tutor for answers, and then they have abrupt decay. I feel so much needs to go right for grafdiggers cage to be ok, and when it is ok it is not that much game breaking as i would hope.
Sorry for a lenghty reply. I hope this helped.
@Kevinliu
Thanks for the advice. The trygons, though, came in for goyfs(for testing) which i will be putting back in to see the difference. Though the MD warmonks are not bad at all.
I'll try the SB you suggested, though I would tweak it a bit to include some GY hate.
Many thanks!
I have almost encountered no problems with FOW support, I will test the changes you suggest.
Its great to hear. though having only 10 other Blue cards to pitch to FoW really scares me. I haven't tested with Blue count that low. Though if I were to run your list, I would probably cut some PtE for more Blue cards. Rhox Warmonk maybe as suggested by aaronc123.
I really like MD Jace, it keeps me from not running out of was and it can be pitched to FOW early in the game. My list is more agro oriented so many people don't see it coming and it can be game breaking.
I also think Jace is really good. But maybe in a more control version than aggro. I haven't tested JTMS extensively in aggro builds though, so don't put much weight on that.
Is 4 daze too much? It just an awful topdeck, should I lower the daze count to 3?
I think 4 is ok. With my deck, I feel I need to have protection early that is why I keep 4. When the game goes on and it seems dead top deck, I should have top going and daze would be a 2cc flip for counterbalance, and also it still pitches to FoW.
Your deck seems quite different though. How are those wastelands for you?
Hi. Has anyone tried Leyline of Sanctity?
I think it could come in for burn, tendrils combo(there still are some out there), discarder (which usually show up in our local store) and some grindstone decks.
I just got 4 and I'm thinking of trying it out. Though I'm not really sure.
My current SB would look like this:
yeah. I took the goyfs out for a warmonk and trygons for testing. I'd probably be bringing them back.
Thanks. I will try Llawan, Cephalid Empress in the SB.
Do you think 3 Dueling Grounds and 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress would be ok? as that is what I have at the moment.
But I still have Landstill to deal with.
Could you guys give some advice on how to play against merfolk and landstill. I seem to just loose against these decks.
I have only played a few games vs these decks, but it seem there are a lot of these in our meta. And when I ran into one, it was an autoloss.
Could these perhaps be good in place of the 2x Rushing River/Wipe Away/Vendilion Clique in the old builds?
I have seen experienced players playing Can Thresh lists here in our area playing 2x Jace TMS in place of the 2x Rushing River/Wipe Away/Vendilion Clique. And it seems good.
One problem with the old tempo thresh builds, I don't know if you guys notice this, is that when the game goes long you eventually run out of answers. In my experience, most of my losses were due to these(running out of gas). There were games where I was a wasteland short of winning. Some games, I had my opponent mana screwed for quite a long time but exhausting my brainstorms and ponders, I still can't find a goose or a goyf.
Having Jace 2.0 solves this. All of its abilities are what the deck needs. You can have continues card quality/advantage with its 1 card scry or Brainstorm every turn. Creature bounce that could deal with troublesome creatures that got through counters and burn. And to a lesser extent, a finisher with its ultimate ability.
The only problem I see with Jace 2.0 though is its mana cost (that is, aside from its money cost). With the old list, you don't usually see 4 lands. With that you should cut down your fetchlands to maybe 4. And if you could squeeze in some basics that could probably help.
Hope this helps those who still want to update/tweak their Canadian Thresh lists. Sorry though, I could only contribute that which I have seen in our area, since I had already stopped and moved to test other decks. I still like this deck tho, and I hope its sees some more play and improvement.
i'm playing a basic Caplin's UGr build and it was great except for some matchups which i like to ask you guys about.
i seem to loose to merfolk quite alot. it seems mana denial is working for the fishes side instead of mine, since they have mostly basic islands, and they also bring in wastes for my trops and volcanics. then they just vial in their fishes to avoid my counters. then they have lots of lords that would eventually keep their guy away from burn range. and to top it off, their lord of atlantis just lets them fishes swim through. can you guys tell me how to play against merfolks? and also some SB suggestions if any?
another is animator which i feel was too fast for me. or am i just playing the deck wrong? what is the best plan vs animator? and also what SB option can you give?
thanks guys!
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For me, I used my forked bolt/Dismember/flex slot for 2 Wrenn and Six. It seems to work alright, although I have only played casual games with my friends with it, and I haven't really heavily play tested the list nor taken the list to any tournaments. I was hoping to fit in 1 more Wrenn and Six but I have already cut down my Tarmogoyf to 3 to fit in my 4 Daze, 3 Stifle, 3 Spell Snare and 3 Spell Pierce config. I'm not sure if I should cut a Daze for it.
If you have any comments, questions or suggestions that will be very much appreciated. I hope we can get MTG SALVATION - RUG Delver FORUMS active again.
Here is my maindeck list, no SB yet.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Wrenn and Six
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
Kinda fills the same role though alot slower.
What do you guys think?
Although that percentage is based mostly on the design of the deck itself, and may brake down to the storm players favor when it comes down to pilot experience. An experienced storm player would probably be able to turn the matchup hugely in their favor vs a rug player who is not that familiar with the matchup.
From what i have experienced in the past, there are really different storm decks although they may sometimes look alike, since all they do is cast a bunch of spells, generate a bunch of mana and storm count,and kill you with a massive spell/storm triggers.
For us RUG players, we could divide these decks based on their speed/resiliency. (Although some of these decks may not be categorized as storm, i would tend to classify them as storm because of how their deck/plays make my plays/decisions in the game similar to that when i am facing storm.)*i hope that makes sense*
storm decks from Fastest to Resilient:
AllSpells-Belcher-TES-ANT-Hightide
Although one would easily be able to know which is AllSpells and which is Hightide, the problem comes when facing ANT and TES which are 2 decks that may look similar but play a whole lot of different.
usually my first few turns are crittical when facing storm and your first play may mean a win or a loss.
this is how i would play vs these decks, basically you should be control vs the fast storm deck and aggro vs the resilient storm decks. What this means for me is keeping counter mana up on the first turn vs TES even though i have a turn 1 delver, and jamming in a turn 1 delver vs ANT with no FoW or Daze protection. This is because fast storm decks are capable of generating huge storm count on the first turn requiring little to no set up, where as resilient storm decks needs to setup and tend to be able to amass a storm on turn 3 or 4 giving you something like 2 turns to brainstorm and ponder for protection needed to set up defenses, but given enough time that they could set up, when they do go for it usually there is nothing you could to stop them, which is why an early clock i think is the best play vs these decks because it forces them to go for it even if their set up is not enough.
Stifle: one of our best tools against them. ANT and TES would usually crack a fetch when you think they need one of their colors badly, maybe they need blue to brainstorm or black for their rituals, the best time to just win with stifle-a free win. Don't stifle that land. Stifle is a hard counter for their win con, that fecth is just part of their setup and stifling a fecth will buy time just a little, where as stifling their Tendrils of Agony will mean you loose 2 life instead of 24. I played storm once before and sometime i would just fetch in a way to bait opponents stifle turning that land into a duress form me, and if i know i could do it, a better storm player must also be thinking that so as a RUG player so should you. This is in no way a strict rule though. Sometimes it is the right play to just stifle their land, as in a case where you just probed them and see only one land and nothing else. But in general i would not stifle fetch lands vs storm.
Side Boarding: depends on what you have. sometimes SB will turn this matchup from 80% in RUG favor to just 40% Because of over side boarding. For me, i would just board in 2 vendilion cliques for my 2 forked bolts, and that is it. The deck is good enough as it is. Do not over sideboard.
One may sometimes want additional counters from their SB. And looking some other cards to cut from the main to fit in some more disruption, you may think of cutting lightning bolts. Do not board out lightning bolts. At worst your lbolts would be a sort of timewalk-a turns worth of delver damage. Lbolt would also mean 3 cards worth of AdNauseaum flip. And it kills xantid swarms when your opponent boards it in. Lightning bolt is not a dead card in the matchup, don't board it out. If ever you feel you need to board in something else, say - flusterstorm, envelope or red blasts, i would rather cut 2 tarmogoyfs than anything else. Tarmo is the next weakest card in the matchup i feel, 2nd only to forked bolt. But you do not want to cut them all because of how fast a clock it is and you need it to close the game fast before the storm player recovers from your disruption.
I dont board in grafdiggers cage vs storm, although i maybe wrong. I feel it is just easy for them to play around when they see it. For cage to be good you have to draw it making all other cages just redundant if you board in more than 1, and then they should be planning on winning using past in flames and nothing else, Adnause is their alternate to PiF so you should have them at low life to have it covered, and you also should have their tutors covered so they could not tutor for answers, and then they have abrupt decay. I feel so much needs to go right for grafdiggers cage to be ok, and when it is ok it is not that much game breaking as i would hope.
Sorry for a lenghty reply. I hope this helped.
Thanks for the advice. The trygons, though, came in for goyfs(for testing) which i will be putting back in to see the difference. Though the MD warmonks are not bad at all.
I'll try the SB you suggested, though I would tweak it a bit to include some GY hate.
Many thanks!
Its great to hear. though having only 10 other Blue cards to pitch to FoW really scares me. I haven't tested with Blue count that low. Though if I were to run your list, I would probably cut some PtE for more Blue cards. Rhox Warmonk maybe as suggested by aaronc123.
I also think Jace is really good. But maybe in a more control version than aggro. I haven't tested JTMS extensively in aggro builds though, so don't put much weight on that.
I think 4 is ok. With my deck, I feel I need to have protection early that is why I keep 4. When the game goes on and it seems dead top deck, I should have top going and daze would be a 2cc flip for counterbalance, and also it still pitches to FoW.
Your deck seems quite different though. How are those wastelands for you?
I think it could come in for burn, tendrils combo(there still are some out there), discarder (which usually show up in our local store) and some grindstone decks.
I just got 4 and I'm thinking of trying it out. Though I'm not really sure.
My current SB would look like this:
3 Dueling Grounds
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic of Progenitus
Our meta here has some of every deck but usually has Merfolks, Zoo, Gobs, Rock, Landstill, Loam, Dredge and different forms of BANT.
Any suggestions for my SB? Is Leyline of Sanctity worth the slot?
Thanks!
Thanks. I will try Llawan, Cephalid Empress in the SB.
Do you think 3 Dueling Grounds and 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress would be ok? as that is what I have at the moment.
But I still have Landstill to deal with.
I have only played a few games vs these decks, but it seem there are a lot of these in our meta. And when I ran into one, it was an autoloss.
My deck looks like this:
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 Rhox Warmonk
3 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Natural Order
Any advice on how play against merfolks and landstill or SB options would be great.
thanks!
I have seen experienced players playing Can Thresh lists here in our area playing 2x Jace TMS in place of the 2x Rushing River/Wipe Away/Vendilion Clique. And it seems good.
One problem with the old tempo thresh builds, I don't know if you guys notice this, is that when the game goes long you eventually run out of answers. In my experience, most of my losses were due to these(running out of gas). There were games where I was a wasteland short of winning. Some games, I had my opponent mana screwed for quite a long time but exhausting my brainstorms and ponders, I still can't find a goose or a goyf.
Having Jace 2.0 solves this. All of its abilities are what the deck needs. You can have continues card quality/advantage with its 1 card scry or Brainstorm every turn. Creature bounce that could deal with troublesome creatures that got through counters and burn. And to a lesser extent, a finisher with its ultimate ability.
The only problem I see with Jace 2.0 though is its mana cost (that is, aside from its money cost). With the old list, you don't usually see 4 lands. With that you should cut down your fetchlands to maybe 4. And if you could squeeze in some basics that could probably help.
Hope this helps those who still want to update/tweak their Canadian Thresh lists. Sorry though, I could only contribute that which I have seen in our area, since I had already stopped and moved to test other decks. I still like this deck tho, and I hope its sees some more play and improvement.
i seem to loose to merfolk quite alot. it seems mana denial is working for the fishes side instead of mine, since they have mostly basic islands, and they also bring in wastes for my trops and volcanics. then they just vial in their fishes to avoid my counters. then they have lots of lords that would eventually keep their guy away from burn range. and to top it off, their lord of atlantis just lets them fishes swim through. can you guys tell me how to play against merfolks? and also some SB suggestions if any?
another is animator which i feel was too fast for me. or am i just playing the deck wrong? what is the best plan vs animator? and also what SB option can you give?
thanks guys!