Petal and a rainbow-land/Fetch into dual for the land-drop (either would work for the U) that's 1U, Dark Rit or C. Rit from either petal or land drop(BBB), maybe a Spirit Guide or 2, there's the new Manamorphose if you can't fit in U, either color works...after that you Doomsday and go off.
so:
land (U/B/R)
Petal (U/B/R)
D. Ritual
ESG/Second petal
Rite of Flame
Total: BBB2U
or:
Petal (U/B)
Land (U/B)
2x D. Rit
Total: BBB2U
or:
Petal (U/B)
Land (U/B)
D. Rit
C. Rit
ESG
UBBB2
There are the possibilities of Culling the Weak with some free critters (seems really weak), plus you could use Pact of Negation and Summoner's Pact: S's Pact to grab the ESG obviously, PoN for protection. If you accidentally make to MUCH mana, big freakin' deal. You will win that turn. You could run white for Chant effects along with the PoN's, this could be good...Intuitions to grab your Doomsdays (opens you up to Extirpate, though) It's not hard to build up mana in a "storm-esque" deck. In fact, if you get enough blue in here, FoW may be an option. Bounce may be a necessary evil against Leylines game 2...This could be good, I think. It would need to look a lot like a storm build, only I think rainbow lands would be better than fetches into duals...Infernal Tutors, Street Wraiths and Mystical Tutors, LED's. It could get pretty sick. Manamorphose *could* be considered. It would get the draw going instead of a cantrip while turning random colors into some of that BBB2U...I think it's worth at least pursuing, accept that I don't have a list atm...if someone has time, I think I'd be interested. I've always liked Doomsday. I looked at it when the Hideaway Lands came out as a way to cheat into more cards. Lotus Petal
Untapped City of Brass
sac Petal for Black
Play Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual
So far, you have (2)BBB
tap City for G/R
giving you (2)BBB(G/R)
Have a Manamorphose (from Shadowmoor, look at it in spoiler) in hand, drop Doomsday, leaving you 2(G/R) and the 5-card stack of: Predict Grapeshot Conjurer's Bauble Lions Eye Diamond Second Sunrise
with the 2 (G/R), cast Manamorphose, giving you 2U floating, and it cantrips you into Predict, you play Predict naming Grapeshot which goes to your graveyard and you draw into your Conjurer's Bauble and Lion's Eye Diamond, pop your Lion's Eye Diamond for WWW, then pop your Conjurer's Bauble to draw your Second Sunrise, play with the floating WWW, grab back Lion's Eye Diamond and Conjurer's Bauble, pop the LED to float WWW again, sacrifice Conjurer's Bauble to return Second Sunrise to the bottom of your library, then you draw it with the second part of Conjurer's Bauble, and keep doing this until you get lethal storm count, and then just grab Grapeshot instead of Second Sunrise, play out Lion's Eye Diamond and Conjurer's Bauble, pop the LED for RRR, pop Bauble to draw into Grapeshot, and have R floating when they lose. If you wanted to be a real prick, you could get a high enough storm count to burn off all of their Tarmogoyfs first....hehehehe!
That couldn't really be THAT hard...could it? I bet we could get a pretty competetive list going...I wonder if we could get it banned again...lol.
I have a legacy question. If I cast Reanimate, do I have to have a target at the time I cast it? Here's the scenario: I cast Reanimate. Can I in response pop my Lion's Eye Diamond, discard my hand that includes the creature I want to reanimate, and then reanimate it? I figured I'd give it a shot, since you can in response to an Infernal Tutor to give it hellbent. Anyway, that's my question. Thanks to the rules gurus who regularly enlighten the semi-ignorant masses...:D
btw, I'm not all that optimistic about the answer, but I thought I would give it a shot...:-/
Well, after looking and looking at 2, 3, and 4c landstill lists, I decided to just put one together of my own build and see how it did. The first test I did on MWS I got a mirrormatch, and all I can say is that if he wouldn't have been playing humility, it would not have been pretty. I owned him until he dropped it...I just couldn't find an answer in time. Mix that with a Pulse of the Fields and it's crazy bad news. Anyway, here's the list. It's extremely Rock-esque...Counter-Rock or something, hehehe:
Shriekmaw--Good critter, I've had wonderful luck with him, but targets are few and far between. I may drop a few for non-sorcery removal. Ideas would be great...Idea #1: Seal of Doom. Enchantment makes it good in conjunction with Standstill, but crappy in conjunction with Deed. Eh. 2/2 split? Still curious. Maybe Smother, but I hate following the crowd...(the irony...I regularly read, play decks off of, and post on one of the biggest net-decking sites on the web...wtfever...:S)
River Boa--Great card against a lot of decks. I like the Regeneration after a Deed//EE, and blocks all day on Goyf. Kind of like taking the place of runninc crucibles, which I find to be unacceptable in a build running 7 reset buttons.
Mire Boa--Wanted a 5th "beater" (lol) with Regen., but couldn't justify going 4c for a singleton Spectral Lynx, not that it's any better than Mire Boa anyway against anything besides 'Goose.
Went Cunning Wish over FoF as it just works for me here.
Mana Leak is easier on the mana base, and against most decks it's easier to cast. If I'm running against a counter-heavy deck, I board them out and put in C-Spells. If they work, I board out C-spells. I'm guessing someone who knows wtf they're talking about will tell me to drop the leaks and MD the C-Spells...
I will say that a resolved Deed and then a Standstill is ungodly with regenerating critters. Stifles solve lots of problems. Storm, Wastes, etc. Mixed with FoW, and lots of counters, this is teh nutz.
Was wondering if LftL *could* fit in. I know it's pretty bad synergy with the entire deck...Maybe in the board. I really have no idea what to do about recurring wastes, other than needles, but Stifle is really more aggressive...I guess I'm needing help with my board anyway. If someone could help me fit them in, I'd really appreciate it.
One thing someone mentioned was using Bobs and Tops, but that begs for CounterBalance, and then it's just a Tog Build with Boas instead of Tog...and tog sux.
I don't have any matchups or stats, just looking to get it as good-looking on paper as possible first.
This might sound cynical, but doesn't Needle r-a-p-e you? I agree you need multiple ways to win, as this is not hard to disrupt long enough to beat. After needle, all it takes is a removal spell on Doran and you have *pretty much* NO win condition (obviously anything that can attack can be a win condition, but Wraith is kind of a crappy back-up plan, although it can work). Also, Chalice @ 1 seems like a auto-loss...
No, society has taught him that weed stinks, and also that drugs are bad.
Combo:...you know what weed smells like? Hmm...Also, not everyone who smokes weed is a "stoner". Generalizations are generally wrong...:D Not to mention that keeping weed illegal isn't going to stop said "stoners" from going into any or all bars...
***note: I in no way advocate or advise any or all who read this to do drugs, nor do I admit or attest to ever having done any myself.
As to the topic, I disagree with whoever said cigarette smoke stinks. I love the smell of bars. Not clubs, mind you. Bars. The ones that have a nice wide selection of beer, beer or beer. Bottles or tap.
And just to be perfectly honest, I think non-smokers should be regulated...I have the same rights as non-smokers, and if my habits are to be regulated, I want your non-habits regulated.
What's the whole ruling on creatures with */*? Like goyf (well, */*+1 obviously). If you toss it to Dracoplasm, is it considered a 0/1, or does goyf still "read" the GY, making Dracoplasm whatever it is? I was under the impression that it might work a lot like Sutured Ghoul. Or was that eratta'ed differently also?
IF it works, I have no clue, but it could be some sort of Thresh-minded aggro-control deck with a combo-like strategy incorporated, something like fling...lol, fling AND dracoplasm. wtf...IDK how well that works in Vintage, though.
Like UGr thresh, but with the ability to have a possibly huge critter that's tossable to Force...I dunno. Seems weak at best.
For the most part, Dracoplasm is risky just playing it because of when you play it rather than when it comes into play. Play, sac critters, Forced=one-sided Wrath. It encourages over-extending with creatues, then creates card disadvantage, while risking everything just by playing it. Not to mention that creatures are rarely good outside of combo anyway in this format.
It's a "fun" card. Probably not vintage material outside of combo, and there are probably better combos.
If I am wrong, please gently correct me, because I have not read through the whole thread.
Of the posts I have seen, most people have said, "Let people smoke, it's their life."
I know that once we start talking about how it's a right they have, there is no way to make it illegal, because, yes, however bad something is, they have a right to ruin their own life. (I know this argument is slightly inconsistent, as, for instance, many drugs are illegal, but there is a different logic to the illegality of those substances.)
The thing is, in my opinion, that while it is their life to ruin, second-hand smoking is, according to evidence I have seen, actually responsible for more deaths then smoking itself.
Government can never take away the right to be stupid, because that is a right that all people are entitled to. It isn't on the Bill of Rights, but it should be. What government can do is stop people from hurting or endangering others, because no one has the right to do that.
Personal Penguin
I smoke.
Did you know that living in a big city has the equivalent effect of smoking a pack a day via air pollution?
Sounds like NYC and Denver should put a ban on NYC and Denver. Obviously there's the circular logic of "NYC wouldn't have near the pollution with a lack of cigarette smoke." This line of thought, however, is clearly wishful thinking.
This should never even have been a concern for government.
The theory would be that with 12 discard effects, mid-game is actually very much late-game. Drop critters while eating the hand alive means virtually no blockers, getting you the win much quicker. At least that's how it seems to work against me (a buddy plays it, and it's really no fun).
I never said Grip was a reason to not play Disk. I was making an argument FOR Disk against the deck it's best against: Stax. As with many cards, I think Disk is for a meta you know. It's symmetry is what makes it good against stax as opposed to other lists where it's more important to hit only certain cards.
I think it's not that useful in the general metagame of today, but it may have it's uses in certain matchups...
Disk is indeed a force to be reckoned with. Especially against stax. Stax players will say "I'll just get my lock down", but truth be told, stax is really draw-dependent, and if you don't get the lock, you don't get the lock. It'd be a race. If you get a Disk down before stax gets a lock down, you win. Straight up. The exception being game 2 if they drop a needle or board in Grips or something. Still, it's a worthy SB option if you need that kind of a drop.
Heretic has even seen play in Vintage to combat the stax lists there. It's not a shabby card.
Don't you run EE MD? Takes care of little bastards pretty easily. R-Quakes and the like have already been mentioned, and so has Flash...
Also, something I've been looking at and debating about testing is Bring's counterpart, Cephalid Coliseum. You can get an extra 3 bears instantly out of it while tossing 3 cards out of your hand for bridge. It can mill the top 3 cards of your library for helping out Library, and it's draw. At worst it's a blue mana source (I realize it's a painland effect) or a Mox-pitch. This is just theory, and of course you would have to have a Words down and a Coliseum, not to mention the mana to do it...IDK, lmk if you guys think it's worth testing.
In the list emidln posted of the RG build, I would drop out the 2x Stomping Grounds for a basic forest and a 3rd Fetch. But, I see a bit of Dragon stompy...Freakin' moon effects...
I'm running with Tarox. I might be dropping him down to 3, though. I know he's bolt range, but I've got trini and chalice. I've done fine with sword. It's not like it's a necessary piece of the puzzle. It's just gravy.
I'll test Rorix, but I like Tarox. Seriously, test on an opponent. The fact is that flying is crazy ignored in this meta. Or test against me. I'm doing really good with him. He's little, I know, but it's just kinda funny for them to StP Tarox and you responding with a toss. lol. Not good card advantage, but It's brought me up in life enough to finish them off before along with Sword. It does happen. I'm sure a 4th intuition would do wonders. I need to figure out what to drop. I'm thinking between a Moon and, oddly enough, a Tarox. You only need 2x to work right, but then you run the risk of not getting one...Like I said, I'll test Rorix and Tarox some more.
Feel free to run a different direction than me. All it can do is save time and hit uncharted territory faster. If you want to go in a SoFI direction, feel free. We can bounce stuff off each other. I'd like to get this to developing competitive, as I believe it should be there now with the success I've had. I just don't have time/energy for matchups/card choices yet, not to mention we don't know exact card choices yet.
Pce,
--cartman
EDIT::: I was wondering about Shimmering Grotto to help get colored mana with the Tombs/Cities...eh?
[quote=Chrome homura;/comments/4170676]I'd love to play Legacy, but I can't afford it, noone else in my area can either, and they're all obsessed with T2 anyway.
quote]
That made me laugh. You can't afford legacy, but t2 you can do...lol
I can't buy 2 boxes+ every time a set comes out...Have you seen prices on:
Tarmogoyf
Thoughtseize
Bosk
Garruk
Jace
Etc.
?
Way off topic, so...how'd you like the list? Tarox is my little sweetness. I know it's 'Pate bait, but I gotta try it. Plus, I got chalice...SB it and SoLS out for SoFI and Razorcore g2 because they are GOING to board in GY hate.
No boudt adout it. lol.
EDIT::: More testing has shown a definite need for a 4th Intuition. I'm seriously not ever drawing into one.
If you run SoLS, Spitebellows could be good, especially alongside Shriekmaw...Or, you could run 1x of Maw Bellows and Aethersnipe. Removal in 3 colors. We run Gemstone Mines and Moxen, shouldn't be too hard to get the mana, plus since the reg. cc on all of them is just X+a color, hardcasting shouldn't be a problem midgame. IDK, we should talk critters, though, bigtime.
Leyline is a little off probably, probably looking for some form of GY hate. It's either this or Tormod's Crypt, though. I'm not sure which.
Tarox is crazy.
Drop Tarox and put SoLS, toss another one, puts him at a 10/9 flying haster, grabs back the copy of him you tossed; wash, rinse, repeat. For all of 2 turns, anyway. Board them out for Razormane Masticore g2 if you happen to be worried about the GY hate. It's too sick to not try it out.
BTW, I want to try out a new name...how's GodStomp sound?
Seems EASILY do-able.
Petal and a rainbow-land/Fetch into dual for the land-drop (either would work for the U) that's 1U, Dark Rit or C. Rit from either petal or land drop(BBB), maybe a Spirit Guide or 2, there's the new Manamorphose if you can't fit in U, either color works...after that you Doomsday and go off.
so:
land (U/B/R)
Petal (U/B/R)
D. Ritual
ESG/Second petal
Rite of Flame
Total: BBB2U
or:
Petal (U/B)
Land (U/B)
2x D. Rit
Total: BBB2U
or:
Petal (U/B)
Land (U/B)
D. Rit
C. Rit
ESG
UBBB2
There are the possibilities of Culling the Weak with some free critters (seems really weak), plus you could use Pact of Negation and Summoner's Pact: S's Pact to grab the ESG obviously, PoN for protection. If you accidentally make to MUCH mana, big freakin' deal. You will win that turn. You could run white for Chant effects along with the PoN's, this could be good...Intuitions to grab your Doomsdays (opens you up to Extirpate, though) It's not hard to build up mana in a "storm-esque" deck. In fact, if you get enough blue in here, FoW may be an option. Bounce may be a necessary evil against Leylines game 2...This could be good, I think. It would need to look a lot like a storm build, only I think rainbow lands would be better than fetches into duals...Infernal Tutors, Street Wraiths and Mystical Tutors, LED's. It could get pretty sick. Manamorphose *could* be considered. It would get the draw going instead of a cantrip while turning random colors into some of that BBB2U...I think it's worth at least pursuing, accept that I don't have a list atm...if someone has time, I think I'd be interested. I've always liked Doomsday. I looked at it when the Hideaway Lands came out as a way to cheat into more cards.
Lotus Petal
Untapped City of Brass
sac Petal for Black
Play Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual
So far, you have (2)BBB
tap City for G/R
giving you (2)BBB(G/R)
Have a Manamorphose (from Shadowmoor, look at it in spoiler) in hand, drop Doomsday, leaving you 2(G/R) and the 5-card stack of:
Predict
Grapeshot
Conjurer's Bauble
Lions Eye Diamond
Second Sunrise
with the 2 (G/R), cast Manamorphose, giving you 2U floating, and it cantrips you into
Predict, you play Predict naming Grapeshot which goes to your graveyard and you draw into your Conjurer's Bauble and Lion's Eye Diamond, pop your Lion's Eye Diamond for WWW, then pop your Conjurer's Bauble to draw your Second Sunrise, play with the floating WWW, grab back Lion's Eye Diamond and Conjurer's Bauble, pop the LED to float WWW again, sacrifice Conjurer's Bauble to return Second Sunrise to the bottom of your library, then you draw it with the second part of Conjurer's Bauble, and keep doing this until you get lethal storm count, and then just grab Grapeshot instead of Second Sunrise, play out Lion's Eye Diamond and Conjurer's Bauble, pop the LED for RRR, pop Bauble to draw into Grapeshot, and have R floating when they lose. If you wanted to be a real prick, you could get a high enough storm count to burn off all of their Tarmogoyfs first....hehehehe!
That couldn't really be THAT hard...could it? I bet we could get a pretty competetive list going...I wonder if we could get it banned again...lol.
--cartman
--cartman
btw, I'm not all that optimistic about the answer, but I thought I would give it a shot...:-/
Pce,
--cartman
Please see the Rulings forum rules regarding the use of card tags.--Binary
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
Creatures (lol, yeah, creatures)--11
2x Tombstalker
4x River Boa
1x Mire Boa
4x Shriekmaw
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Engineered Explosives
Draw and Utility--11
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
3x Cunning Wish
Counters--8
4x Force of Will
2x Mana Leak
2x Counterspell
1x Rebuild
1x Daze
1x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
2x Extirpate
1x Krosan Grip
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Counterspell
1x Crop Rotation
Some cards I'm still not sure about:
Shriekmaw--Good critter, I've had wonderful luck with him, but targets are few and far between. I may drop a few for non-sorcery removal. Ideas would be great...Idea #1: Seal of Doom. Enchantment makes it good in conjunction with Standstill, but crappy in conjunction with Deed. Eh. 2/2 split? Still curious. Maybe Smother, but I hate following the crowd...(the irony...I regularly read, play decks off of, and post on one of the biggest net-decking sites on the web...wtfever...:S)
River Boa--Great card against a lot of decks. I like the Regeneration after a Deed//EE, and blocks all day on Goyf. Kind of like taking the place of runninc crucibles, which I find to be unacceptable in a build running 7 reset buttons.
Mire Boa--Wanted a 5th "beater" (lol) with Regen., but couldn't justify going 4c for a singleton Spectral Lynx, not that it's any better than Mire Boa anyway against anything besides 'Goose.
Went Cunning Wish over FoF as it just works for me here.
Mana Leak is easier on the mana base, and against most decks it's easier to cast. If I'm running against a counter-heavy deck, I board them out and put in C-Spells. If they work, I board out C-spells. I'm guessing someone who knows wtf they're talking about will tell me to drop the leaks and MD the C-Spells...
I will say that a resolved Deed and then a Standstill is ungodly with regenerating critters. Stifles solve lots of problems. Storm, Wastes, etc. Mixed with FoW, and lots of counters, this is teh nutz.
Was wondering if LftL *could* fit in. I know it's pretty bad synergy with the entire deck...Maybe in the board. I really have no idea what to do about recurring wastes, other than needles, but Stifle is really more aggressive...I guess I'm needing help with my board anyway. If someone could help me fit them in, I'd really appreciate it.
One thing someone mentioned was using Bobs and Tops, but that begs for CounterBalance, and then it's just a Tog Build with Boas instead of Tog...and tog sux.
I don't have any matchups or stats, just looking to get it as good-looking on paper as possible first.
--cartman
tags for those who don't know some of the cards...like me, for example.
Combo:...you know what weed smells like? Hmm...Also, not everyone who smokes weed is a "stoner". Generalizations are generally wrong...:D Not to mention that keeping weed illegal isn't going to stop said "stoners" from going into any or all bars...
***note: I in no way advocate or advise any or all who read this to do drugs, nor do I admit or attest to ever having done any myself.
As to the topic, I disagree with whoever said cigarette smoke stinks. I love the smell of bars. Not clubs, mind you. Bars. The ones that have a nice wide selection of beer, beer or beer. Bottles or tap.
And just to be perfectly honest, I think non-smokers should be regulated...I have the same rights as non-smokers, and if my habits are to be regulated, I want your non-habits regulated.
IF it works, I have no clue, but it could be some sort of Thresh-minded aggro-control deck with a combo-like strategy incorporated, something like fling...lol, fling AND dracoplasm. wtf...IDK how well that works in Vintage, though.
Like UGr thresh, but with the ability to have a possibly huge critter that's tossable to Force...I dunno. Seems weak at best.
For the most part, Dracoplasm is risky just playing it because of when you play it rather than when it comes into play. Play, sac critters, Forced=one-sided Wrath. It encourages over-extending with creatues, then creates card disadvantage, while risking everything just by playing it. Not to mention that creatures are rarely good outside of combo anyway in this format.
It's a "fun" card. Probably not vintage material outside of combo, and there are probably better combos.
--cartman
I smoke.
Did you know that living in a big city has the equivalent effect of smoking a pack a day via air pollution?
Sounds like NYC and Denver should put a ban on NYC and Denver. Obviously there's the circular logic of "NYC wouldn't have near the pollution with a lack of cigarette smoke." This line of thought, however, is clearly wishful thinking.
This should never even have been a concern for government.
Necro Warning
I think it's not that useful in the general metagame of today, but it may have it's uses in certain matchups...
Don't you run EE MD? Takes care of little bastards pretty easily. R-Quakes and the like have already been mentioned, and so has Flash...
Also, something I've been looking at and debating about testing is Bring's counterpart, Cephalid Coliseum. You can get an extra 3 bears instantly out of it while tossing 3 cards out of your hand for bridge. It can mill the top 3 cards of your library for helping out Library, and it's draw. At worst it's a blue mana source (I realize it's a painland effect) or a Mox-pitch. This is just theory, and of course you would have to have a Words down and a Coliseum, not to mention the mana to do it...IDK, lmk if you guys think it's worth testing.
In the list emidln posted of the RG build, I would drop out the 2x Stomping Grounds for a basic forest and a 3rd Fetch. But, I see a bit of Dragon stompy...Freakin' moon effects...
I'll test Rorix, but I like Tarox. Seriously, test on an opponent. The fact is that flying is crazy ignored in this meta. Or test against me. I'm doing really good with him. He's little, I know, but it's just kinda funny for them to StP Tarox and you responding with a toss. lol. Not good card advantage, but It's brought me up in life enough to finish them off before along with Sword. It does happen. I'm sure a 4th intuition would do wonders. I need to figure out what to drop. I'm thinking between a Moon and, oddly enough, a Tarox. You only need 2x to work right, but then you run the risk of not getting one...Like I said, I'll test Rorix and Tarox some more.
Feel free to run a different direction than me. All it can do is save time and hit uncharted territory faster. If you want to go in a SoFI direction, feel free. We can bounce stuff off each other. I'd like to get this to developing competitive, as I believe it should be there now with the success I've had. I just don't have time/energy for matchups/card choices yet, not to mention we don't know exact card choices yet.
Pce,
--cartman
EDIT::: I was wondering about Shimmering Grotto to help get colored mana with the Tombs/Cities...eh?
quote]
That made me laugh. You can't afford legacy, but t2 you can do...lol
I can't buy 2 boxes+ every time a set comes out...Have you seen prices on:
Tarmogoyf
Thoughtseize
Bosk
Garruk
Jace
Etc.
?
Way off topic, so...how'd you like the list? Tarox is my little sweetness. I know it's 'Pate bait, but I gotta try it. Plus, I got chalice...SB it and SoLS out for SoFI and Razorcore g2 because they are GOING to board in GY hate.
No boudt adout it. lol.
EDIT::: More testing has shown a definite need for a 4th Intuition. I'm seriously not ever drawing into one.
EDIT:::
Here's something to think about....
Leyline is a little off probably, probably looking for some form of GY hate. It's either this or Tormod's Crypt, though. I'm not sure which.
Tarox is crazy.
Drop Tarox and put SoLS, toss another one, puts him at a 10/9 flying haster, grabs back the copy of him you tossed; wash, rinse, repeat. For all of 2 turns, anyway. Board them out for Razormane Masticore g2 if you happen to be worried about the GY hate. It's too sick to not try it out.
BTW, I want to try out a new name...how's GodStomp sound?