MTG Salvation

Quote from badjuju

Wow. He completely cut DoJ. I guess he really does just auto-lose to Vamps.

This was prolly a meta call. He (correctly) anticipated a very small showing from vamps. Vamps was 14 out of 300+ decks. Top 16 was HEAVY jund. Looks like it worked out nicely.

Anyone else here somewhat disappointed in rashad evans gameplan? Takedown after takedown after... Well you get the point. And he never did anything with those takedowns. I was hoping for a lot more standup between these two. Thiago's performance in the third has me convinced he would have won the stand up war...had there been one.

Intrigueing to be sure. But I agree with Subrosian that topdecking that kinda worries me. Have you tested with it yet?

On an alternate note came across a couple of articles from ChannelFireball. I thought they were pretty good. Don't know if you all have prolly read them already but: http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/careful-consideration-this-time-itll-be-different-i-swear/ and http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/in-development-observe-orient-decide-act/

Quote from Ulfsaar

Fleshbag costs 3 cmc.

Thats what I meant to say.

Quote from Eatworld

Yes the fleshbag is good I tested it in this deck I am just saying sac a haster isn't going to happen much and shroud shouldn't be too much of a problem As for wod we hv hawks and bloodwitch and sphinx is just too slow

As for flying sweeper I thk something like Caldera Hellion could work but it's just too slow now.

Quote from joncaputo

i mean a sweeper like EQ that can also hit flying

The problem isn't them getting a single WoD or, later, a single SoJI. We can race past that via creature density. The problem is when they get two or three of the above mentioned critters. No sweeper that hits fliers will ever do enough to deal with a WoD and to sweep a SoJI with such would be an enormously inefficient mana cost for a single removal. Enter fleshbag marauder. For 3 mana you kill off their shroud inflicted flying jerk. Since you are facing a ton of spot removal, a grip of counters, and plenty of sweepers from U/W/x related decks we need a better density of threats that can force there way past and/or kill off there shroud jerks.

Quote from lightning07

ahh argopile you have come to some of the conclusions i have come to.
But yea I found that going against america control Magma phoenix owns them. Yea remember about 2 weeks ago me suggesting it. I still say keep a look out for it because the only way they can deal with it is path in which we bolt it in response. We would just have to take a heavy control approach if we go that route. I mean 3 damage to everything and 6 to a creature that could block it. You just need to be careful with it as to not obliterate you own creatures with it. I mean the ability to change a bolt to instant 3 damage fallout is pretty nifty if you ask me.

Glad someone agrees.:D

The Phoenix is interesting but I am going to roll with the fleshbag marauder for the moment since it is a two drop. SoJI is a pain but sit it next to a wall of denial or have two walls sitting together and it becomes extremely difficult to overcome. I don't mind just one of either, just not two shroud dudes.

And yes a larger cardpool would be nice if it includes some goodies for us as well.;)

Quote from ParticleMan

I'm making fun of his obsession with statistics.

The graph tells you what SB cards people that went to top 8 in large tournaments SB'ed most. That's all! It doesn't really tell you anything about sideboarding. It says nothing about why or when or which combinations to use. It doesn't tell you what's best to use "in general" and it certainly doesn't tell you what's best to use in your meta. So, because SB is far more meta-dependent than MD, it's even more useless to talk about "most-used SB cards" than it is to talk about "most-used MD cards." SB is also linked to MD, so if your MD is different, your SB will likely be different.

Previously, Secularon has tried to use statistics as a basis for determining what cards are good MD in Jund. This seems like the SB version of that argument.

I didn't say that it did any of those things. For the most part I agree with your statements, but I disagree with ignoring what SB peices are most common. Part of success Games 2-3 is having an understanding what new elements could be coming your way. Not all, just a part of it.

A minor example: Goblin Ruinblaster is seeing a large usage rate in top decks. Many people on this and other threads believe, rightly or wrongly, that this is a relevent sideboard peice vs. Jund. This may or may not affect your MD and SB decisions but it is relevent information.

I agree that statistics are not the be-all end-all of information sources and should not be used exclusively for decision making, but they are still useful.

Quote from ParticleMan

Secularon's Statistically-Perfect Jund SideboardMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
		Sideboard (15) 4 Jund Charm 4 Goblin Ruinblaster 2 Great Sable Stag 2 Duress 1 Thought Hemorrhage 1 Mind Rot 1 Burst Lightning

Oh man am I ever going to WIN on Friday...

WOW that completely misses the point of what he is saying. Are you being facetious or are you really being that ignorant? I think you are merely being sarcastic but I am not sure.

The graph points out what Sideboard cards are being used in general by top decks. This can then be used to help understand what will likely be sided in against you and what is seeing success as a side-in.

Played a dozen or so games vs jund with Quenchable Fire sided in 8 of 12. Was impressed. I will admit being skeptical at first but it makes that race so much better. Having malakir bloodwitch main game 1 just felt terrible. I may be dropping it back to the SB. But I am completely sold on QF.

Played round 10 games or so vs UWx and pithing needle is now out of my SB. My meta is full of control decks filled up with PW's and I still never wanted to side it in. Duress is gone as well. I cast it twice and whiffed both times. Either time it could have been an answer or a threat and it just wasn't.

Then I played my groups Jund deck and died horribly over and over (I got to be the test dummy). UWR has a great game vs jund, as does the version of vamps one of the guys runs.

I am really liking where UWR is going. It might just be the right meta call. I struggled quite a bit vs our version. Maindeck flashfreeze is pretty good. The bloodwitch is a solid answer unless they get a sphinx of jwar isle in play. Which is why I am adding fleshbag marauder to the side. Its another solid way of dealing with their wall and makes the sphinx just not as good.

Deathmark is also going back in. Its just good in too many relevent matches.

I am cutting volcanic fallout altogether since I have not seen boros in my meta in a very long time. Either version.

So right now I am looking at:


Main deck differences: Two bloodwitches, three burst lightning, and a full complement of vampire nighthawks. Other than that it is the standard build.

Quote from Johnny_Spike

Ummm.... both the official versions SB needles...

Two things here:
1) We don't really have an official version of a SB. The maindeck has been, other than 2-3 slots, pretty much set. The SB however has been in constant flux, to the point it changes almost daily.
2)There can't be a standardized Sideboard. Your sideboard is reactional to your meta. Since each persons meta is completely different then each persons SB will then be inherently different. We can have somewhat set answers to known decks, but how you would put those into one SB is on each individual.

Quote from joncaputo

that cant be the general strategy for either boros versions, because the current accepted list on this thread no longer runs pithing needle.

Thats somewhat debatable. There isn't really an accepted SB atm. Hell 2-3 slots of the main are still in flux, tho in all reality thats fairly normal.

Myself I am currently using:


I am very tempted to add Fleshbag Marauder to the side since my meta is full up on UWx variants and grixis variants, all sporting Sphinx of Jwar Isle. Jerks.

Quote from lightning07

I think duress messes with our start a bit too much. I mean yes we can duress away their bombs but they can just draw another one later in the game. Vampires could just use Vess or sign in blood to get back tendrils and grixis has divination i think. Also late game duress basically is borderline useless. I mean yea you will be able to snag a nice ultimatum or a held tendrils from a tapped out vampires player but really other than I see no practical use for it. Not to mention this meta is aggro filled and duress is like running terror during mirrodin, great card bad choice meta wise atleast I think.

But that is the cons of duress what are the pros?
A. Well it does get rid of threats nice and early so we don't have to deal with them
-ex cruel, planeswalkers, elemental appeal, pulse/bit blast, a counter, Eldrazi.
B. We get to see their hand and understand if we have to go aggro or control
C. Its very cheap for just a B

I just feel the negatives of duress outweigh the positives at the moment.

Maybe worldwake will bring more harmful non creature non land cards that will shift the meta enough from heavy aggro to a more balanced meta.

Thats the problem though. People fire off duress too early. Its like the rest of our deck, it requires correct timing. Yes it snags a tendrils but it grabs vess too. Got a bolt handy? Grab that vess instead.

Grixis needs to resolve cruel ultimatum against us (thats what I have experienced anyway). Take it away. Wanna launch that game finishing EQ? Make sure that negate goes away. About to recur & bolt 10 dmg there way? Get that agany warp out of their hand. (amazing removal card in this meta)

How about those heinous lifegain cards out there? Lets just take those away...

And like you said you get to see their hand as well. The dead late game part applies to a fair number of our SB cards so I don't mind that so much.

And hey I hope that guy sleaves up this beauty and joins in on the fun.:)

I run duress in the SB myself. Vamps loves bomb cards, much like grixis among others.

Quote from tides

This is very true. When I tested this (see, I did, I'm not theory trolling), it was an auto loss to Bant. When they go turn 2 War monk and turn 4 Baneslayer Angel, you lose. Especially when there are other threats to deal with.

With the amount of burn/removal we run they should never have kept that turn 1 accelerator. They DEFINATELY should not had an accelator on turn 4. Was that just from keeping a really bad hand or did you not ever draw bolt/burst/EQ/fallout/terminate?

Well said lightning07. Despite how often as nighthawk eats removal there are times when he sticks and is just phenomenal. As long as he is on the field you KNOW that nothing else is getting hit with removal.