I am trying to explain an interaction for our EDH group, where I vindictively got rid of Sheoldred even though it was going to kill me.
My question is essentially a technical one: does Howling Mine trigger go on the stack before or after a Sheoldred trigger?
J controls Phyrexian Arena
A controls Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
Anyone controls Howling Mine
J is at 7 life.
J goes to upkeep. PA triggers. J draws a card and loses a life as one effect.
J goes to 6 life.
Sheoldred triggers. No other effects go on the stack.
J goes to 4 life.
J goes to draw step. J draws a card as a special action which does not use the stack. *
Sheoldred triggers. No other effects go on the stack.
J goes to 2 life.
Howling Mine triggers. No other effects go on the stack. J draws a card.
Sheoldred triggers.
In response, J plays Utter End targeting Sheoldred.
Sheoldred is exiled.
Sheoldred's trigger resolves. J goes to 0 life.
At * above, Howling Mine trigger is not on the stack, right?
Or, with the special action of drawing a card, neither trigger is on the stack, but when do they go on the stack, and who controls the order of putting them on the stack?
I am trying to see if a combo works here, so bear me. This is not a strategy thread.
If the Nomads en-Kor gains indestructible, can it:
Redirect one point of damage to itself, which is doubled, then redirect to itself again, doubled again, and then finally redirect four damage to a Stuffy Doll I control, or another likely suspect, which presumably will be doubled again.
Or does the damage not double indefinitely? Is that what you're saying?
Then opponent goes to draw a card. It is then that I realize the Chalice trigger, and I say, "Wait, GP was countered. You can't draw."
(Opp went ahead and drew a card anyway, regardless of my protests.)
The fairly obvious question is: how should we have correctly settled the draw part of GP, after I had revealed my hand?
But my real question is here:
When the Missed Trigger rulings were changing seemingly every week, I thought I heard that if you are aware of the trigger, either player is obliged to point it out (assuming it has a noticeable effect on the game state). A player is not allowed to do something and "see" if their opponent will miss the trigger. So, if my opp was aware that GP had been countered he is obliged to tell me.
Of course the weak point of this, is that it puts people on the honor system, but that was always the challenge of Missed Trigger policy from the get-go.
If one could determine that a player was indeed aware of the trigger, but failed to point it out, then is that a violation?
... When to search for which one?
When to board SoWaP in?
It's a big topic.
Jitte is also great in the mirror, because it ends Mother of Runes (as well as the rest of our creatures); Jitte is good against us.
If I know my opponent has no countermagic at the time, I might get Jitte if I have two mana open and hardcast it to get it online fastest of the three.
Frequently I find Jitte is vulnerable in the sense that it is usually the Equipment my opponent gets first (for the above reason) and so I frequently have to "Revoker" it, causing me to wish for a different Equipment of my own.
Though some people differ, I also go for Sword of Red and Blue against Delver. I love to shoot Delvers first. It gets past an otherwise blocking TNN, and provides card advantage in a matchup where the opponent is drawing zillions.
Sword of Red and Blue is often my first choice against Deathrite because it kills DS just as successfully as Jitte does, but for the above reason, I might be Revokering Jitte in that matchup, or I value the card advantage (ergo I might like SoFaI if I have previously been getting Thoughtseized or Hymned). Jitte kills at Instant speed, which is sometimes good if the opponent is going to grab a Stoneforge Mystic and fetch business before you have time to intervene with Sword of X. Jitte is a must for Infect for instance. You can respond to their business, a la Inkmoth Nexus for instance.
Batterskull is pretty skill-intensive in my experience. If you can reliably protect SM, it is usually solid, but it doesn't straight up kill problem creatures on the other side. On grindy matchups it shines, because the opponent has inevitability, and BS forestalls that.
I have, on not necessarily rare occasions, tried to bait removal by fetching a Batterskull. Opp is going to kill Mystic, leaving the creatures in my hand more safe. BS becomes a wasted card, but it sometimes pays off.
There are other advocates here for Sword of Red and White. I like it of course to protect from those colors, but it shines where the opp needs time to set up, such as with Miracles 2.0. They try to survive the short game to get into a setup with Jace, or Angel tokens, or finding Terminus, and this opp has a mitt-full of cards. SoWaP makes a quick clock in that case.
I went 4-0 with this meta specific deck
2-1 Elves
2-0 Ad Nauseam
2-0 Grixis Delver
2-0 Ad Nauseam
I could see a couple of Cavern of Souls because a 2nd or 3rd turn (or later) Aether Vial stuck in your hand is bad enough, but late Mother of Runes can still turn the game around. It's a good card anyway.
J
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
J
My question is essentially a technical one: does Howling Mine trigger go on the stack before or after a Sheoldred trigger?
J controls Phyrexian Arena
A controls Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
Anyone controls Howling Mine
J is at 7 life.
J goes to upkeep. PA triggers. J draws a card and loses a life as one effect.
J goes to 6 life.
Sheoldred triggers. No other effects go on the stack.
J goes to 4 life.
J goes to draw step. J draws a card as a special action which does not use the stack. *
Sheoldred triggers. No other effects go on the stack.
J goes to 2 life.
Howling Mine triggers. No other effects go on the stack. J draws a card.
Sheoldred triggers.
In response, J plays Utter End targeting Sheoldred.
Sheoldred is exiled.
Sheoldred's trigger resolves. J goes to 0 life.
At * above, Howling Mine trigger is not on the stack, right?
Or, with the special action of drawing a card, neither trigger is on the stack, but when do they go on the stack, and who controls the order of putting them on the stack?
Thank you in advance.
J
If the Grizzly Bears and Bequeathal are sacrificed, is Bequeathal still attached when Grizzly Bears goes to the graveyard, and you draw two cards?
Thanks,
J
I am trying to see if a combo works here, so bear me. This is not a strategy thread.
If the Nomads en-Kor gains indestructible, can it:
Redirect one point of damage to itself, which is doubled, then redirect to itself again, doubled again, and then finally redirect four damage to a Stuffy Doll I control, or another likely suspect, which presumably will be doubled again.
Or does the damage not double indefinitely? Is that what you're saying?
Thank you for the response.
J
Thanks,
J
Windfall
Presuming opponent(s) have cards in hand, when Windfall is played, will Adamaro die?
Or does he survive because his power/toughness does not get checked 'til after resolution?
Thank you.
J
1 Golden Egg
1 Improbable Alliance
1 Tome Raider
1 Merchant of the Vale
1 Clockwork Servant
2 Wicked Guardian
2 Unexplained Vision
1 Syr Elenora, the Discerning
1 Lochmere Serpent
1 Ayara, First of Locthwain
1 Mad Ratter
Utility
1 Fae of Wishes
Creature Control
2 Queen of Ice
1 Charmed Sleep
2 Run Away Together
1 Frogify
1 Scalding Cauldron
1 Searing Barrage
2 Mystic Sanctuary
6 Island
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
Some parts belong in multiple categories.
The Fae of Wishes target is usually a basic land, but here's the sideboard:
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
Final Cuts at top
1 Prophet of the Peak
1 Oathsworn Knight
1 Memory Theft
1 Smitten Swordmaster
1 Malevolent Noble
1 Cauldron Familiar
1 Bog Naughty
2 Giant's Skewer
2 Eye Collector
1 Reaper of Night
2 Elite Headhunter
1 Fling
2 Crystal Slipper
2 Weaselback Redcap
1 Ogre Errant
1 Embereth Paladin
1 Syr Carah, the Bold
1 Burning-Yard Trainer
1 Mistford River Turtle
1 Animating Faerie
1 Merfolk Secretkeeper
1 Lucky Clover
1 Locthwain Gargoyle
1 Henge Walker
1 Grumgully, the Generous
1 Maraleaf Rider
1 Wolf's Quarry
1 Curious Pair
1 Insatiable Appetite
1 Fierce Witchstalker
1 Rosethorn Acolyte
1 Outmuscle
1 Garenbrig Carver
1 Garenbrig Paladin
1 Return to Nature
1 Gingerbread Cabin
2 Fortifying Provisions
1 Deafening Silence
2 Shining Armor
1 Trapped in the Tower
1 Beloved Princess
1 Ardenvale Paladin
1 Faerie Guidemother
1 Knight of the Keep
1 Venerable Knight
1 Youthful Knight
1 Rally for the Throne
1 Silverflame Squire
1 Archon of Absolution
1 Linden, the Steadfast Queen
1 Idyllic Grange
J
J
But this doesn't work, does it?
J
I am thinking Ramunap Excavator and spells that let you outnumber your opponent on permanents quickly, such as Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Exploration, Wasteland, Khalni Garden.
J
J
Opp plays Gitaxian Probe.
I reveal my hand.
Then opponent goes to draw a card. It is then that I realize the Chalice trigger, and I say, "Wait, GP was countered. You can't draw."
(Opp went ahead and drew a card anyway, regardless of my protests.)
The fairly obvious question is: how should we have correctly settled the draw part of GP, after I had revealed my hand?
But my real question is here:
When the Missed Trigger rulings were changing seemingly every week, I thought I heard that if you are aware of the trigger, either player is obliged to point it out (assuming it has a noticeable effect on the game state). A player is not allowed to do something and "see" if their opponent will miss the trigger. So, if my opp was aware that GP had been countered he is obliged to tell me.
Of course the weak point of this, is that it puts people on the honor system, but that was always the challenge of Missed Trigger policy from the get-go.
If one could determine that a player was indeed aware of the trigger, but failed to point it out, then is that a violation?
Thanks in advance.
J
Jurassic Stompy - Legacy | Nerdwalla and Allison8Bit
It's a big topic.
Jitte is also great in the mirror, because it ends Mother of Runes (as well as the rest of our creatures); Jitte is good against us.
If I know my opponent has no countermagic at the time, I might get Jitte if I have two mana open and hardcast it to get it online fastest of the three.
Frequently I find Jitte is vulnerable in the sense that it is usually the Equipment my opponent gets first (for the above reason) and so I frequently have to "Revoker" it, causing me to wish for a different Equipment of my own.
Though some people differ, I also go for Sword of Red and Blue against Delver. I love to shoot Delvers first. It gets past an otherwise blocking TNN, and provides card advantage in a matchup where the opponent is drawing zillions.
Sword of Red and Blue is often my first choice against Deathrite because it kills DS just as successfully as Jitte does, but for the above reason, I might be Revokering Jitte in that matchup, or I value the card advantage (ergo I might like SoFaI if I have previously been getting Thoughtseized or Hymned). Jitte kills at Instant speed, which is sometimes good if the opponent is going to grab a Stoneforge Mystic and fetch business before you have time to intervene with Sword of X. Jitte is a must for Infect for instance. You can respond to their business, a la Inkmoth Nexus for instance.
Batterskull is pretty skill-intensive in my experience. If you can reliably protect SM, it is usually solid, but it doesn't straight up kill problem creatures on the other side. On grindy matchups it shines, because the opponent has inevitability, and BS forestalls that.
I have, on not necessarily rare occasions, tried to bait removal by fetching a Batterskull. Opp is going to kill Mystic, leaving the creatures in my hand more safe. BS becomes a wasted card, but it sometimes pays off.
There are other advocates here for Sword of Red and White. I like it of course to protect from those colors, but it shines where the opp needs time to set up, such as with Miracles 2.0. They try to survive the short game to get into a setup with Jace, or Angel tokens, or finding Terminus, and this opp has a mitt-full of cards. SoWaP makes a quick clock in that case.
PS I like Sword of Light and Shadow but I recognize it has serious deficiencies.
J
I could see a couple of Cavern of Souls because a 2nd or 3rd turn (or later) Aether Vial stuck in your hand is bad enough, but late Mother of Runes can still turn the game around. It's a good card anyway.
J