Was instructed by the mods to come here for specific card recommendations for this deck.
In short, am thinking of playing this deck again now that it seems to be a lot better, partly due to some new cards. Recently sold my Chain Lightnings due to monetary issues. Also, don't own several of the cards that I am seeing in decklists such as Sulfuric Vortex.
So here's my question. What cards are absolutely must haves in order to run this deck and which ones can be substituted for?
Thanks for the assistance.
Cards you'll need:
4x goblin guide
4x eidolon of the great revel
2x grim lavamancer
4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
4x lava spike
4x rift bolt
4x fireblast
4x price of progress
Optional, but worth it:
4x searing blaze
4x flame rift
+ 2x grim lavamancer
8-12 red fetchlands (I'd recommend at least 8 with 2x Grim. The reprint in Khans makes this much cheaper)
SB
2-3 Sulfuric Vortex
Sadly, most of the optimal burn cards aren't really replaceable. Vexing Devil is ok, but I think Grim is generally better.
Noob question. Why 3 Grim Lavamancers instead of 4?
You never want 2 in your hand or on the field at the same time at any time in the game. If that's what you think of a card, you add only 3 of it.
But conversely, you're not guaranteed to draw one. And if you do, it is still susceptible to discard, counter, removal, etc.
I agree much more with this, plus it's also a great 1-drop. If you want to play them, 4 is correct if you run 10-12 fetchlands. Drawing 2 just means the first one immediately gets destroyed, which is not that big of a deal. Run 2-3 with 8 or less fetches.
Hey guys, I'm currently playing RWB Burn and had a question. Is there another variant of the deck that has a little more depth/reach? I'm finding myself getting dragged into the midgame in my meta and being in top deck mode with no cards in hand is getting old. Also, while the deck is fun to play it does get a bit boring! The only thing I can think of is adding some Grim Lavamancers to give me a little reach.
With the ONS fetches, add more Grim Lavamancers, and play more fetches. Searing effects and Flames of the Blood Hand are good for reach, but you really don't want that many 3-CMC spells, and Grim makes playing them harder.
Because
(1) It is a 3cmc spell.
(2) isn't fantastic in multiples
(3) is a 3cmc spell.
(4) is a 3cmc spell.
This. Also, Vortex is good SB card, but is not as good in the maindeck as it use to be due to Abrupt Decay, the increased number of creatures in decks, and Ediolon being good enough to warrant maindeck play. It's also only really amazing versus Miracles, and is good versus Blade if the board is kind of clear.
I agree on this being a deck where "don't fix it if it's not broken" applies, with a little room for flex slots. The SB is where you can experiment a bit more.
What are your guys thoughts on 2x Dragon's Claw in the SB? I know it's a good card, but I don't know if it's worth the SB space. I don't play online, and mostly play in blind metas. How popular do you think Burn (all variants) really is to warrant it?
Current SB:
4x Searing Blood (any creature deck, 4x Searing Blaze main)
4x Molten Rain (UWR decks, possibly BG if on the draw, needs testing)
3x Smash to Smithereens (Affinity)
2x Torpor Orb (Twin, Pod, UWR Kikki Twin, any UW Flash or Finks decks) (I've found these to really be worth it even though they aren't Burn)
2x Flex slot (between Relic of Progenitus, Guerilla Tactics, Cryoclasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Dragon's Claw)
Q. What does my deck want to do?
A. Play 7 spells for 3 damage each over 3-4 turns
Q. How many land do I want to play in 1 game?
A. 3 land
Q. I don't want to draw any land after I have 3
A. So I want to be able to draw 2 land in my opening hand. 1 land in the next 3 cards. (Being at 19-20 land and then fetching your needed lands gives the deck the most probability to only draw 3 land in 10 cards).
If you need a color you can fetch it. If you don't need black or white just go get a mountain to avoid taking unnecessary damage.
Here is the deck that I will run now
While I agree with the logic behind the amount of land you want, I would highly recommend against running more than 12 fetches for filtering. At that point you border on drawing dead fetches pretty often and start taking about 3-4 damage per game, not counting untapped shock lands. This is from experience in Legacy, where running 4 Grim and 4 Searing Blaze is much more common.
I'd suggest 12 red fetches, 20 total land (it's the same as 19 with 12 fetches) and maxing out on Grim and Searing Blaze.
I'd highly recommend never playing any non-red land in this deck. We don't care about Blood Moon and IMO can't risk playing around it.
Where is everyone getting these prices... Zen fetches were always around 20 bucks. Arid mesa was the most expensive one... as Boros was the best deck for a while... And yes, it used a lot of land fall...
Really, the only time they dropped to 7 was before the legacy boom, at roation, before modern was a thing, and they very very quickly went up to 12. Then 15, than 20. Like within a year.
Regardless, this is the SPoiler thread people. Not price. I think we ought to get back on topic. Even me. Move the fetches price to price threads.
Fetches were around 10-12 each throughout there T2 tenure, with the exception of release as everyone scrambled to get copies for non T2 formats. I remember buying Arid Mesas for 10 each from TNT and trading for Marsh Flats at 8 around the release of ROE. The ZEN fetches didn't break 10-12 until about a year or more after rotation.
They let you run 10-12 red fetches, which makes Grim Lavamancer and Searing Blaze much better. Plus, if Arid Mesa loses some value if additional blue fetches replace it in other decks, you won't need Scalding Tarn.
I think the question now is, do we try to move toward 4x Grim in lists with more fetches to support it? I think we can also cut the amount of shocks down to two copies, at least in Boros Burn. Dega Burn also doesn't need Marsh Flats anymore.
I think selling ZEN fetches now or after Khans is fine, but if the MM-2 rumors are true for the unrevealed summer GPs, that's where they will be. I don't think they will put ZEN fetches in Khans block, as it's another opportunity to make sure a set sells, and they don't need to (or often do that) twice a block.
SCG put up its preorder prices for Khans fetches:
Blue $25, and all sold out.
Windswept Heath: $20, sold out.
Red: $20, not sold out.
Original nonblue fell to 30, and Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta went to $50 and $60 respectively.
Since they'll now be Modern Legal, I don't think they'll end up at $8-10 each while in standard, unless the set is massively over-drafted. Also, aren't they drafting less of this block then normal due to the structure of Khans? I thought it was triple Khans, then Khans x2/2nd set, then 2nd set x2/3rd set.
I think this is a good idea, if you like the deck.
Burn is very much an acquired taste IMO, and you will be a dog in a lot of matchups. The deck can also be repetitive and feel mind-numbing. The deck can also require intensive planning for multiple turns to keep tempo going and pressure applied while dodging soft countermagic and Tarmogoyfs.
It is, however, a very cheap deck to acquire price-wise, and the only expensive cards that are Legacy-only are Chain Lightning and 2-4 Onslaught fetchlands. If you like the deck and enjoy the playstyle, I would go for it. I would also point out that Burn is weaker in Modern then in Legacy, and the results show - so I might not recommend Burn as your Modern deck for long because it has trouble with lots of popular cards. Legacy Burn is better equipped to handle its format's problems, and has more powerful inexpensive cards to answer them.
IMO, I would build Burn for Legacy, if you enjoy playing the deck, and test it for Modern before deciding on it.
Not sure if we want that many creatures, particularly Revoker, and I think we still need Ensnaring Bridge in the board. Nevertheless, an impressive performance from both of them.
Why do you care about your opponent getting past land clumps and drawing "gas?"
because I like to win games and one of the worst ways to do that is by giving your opponent more cards. There's a reason Library of Alexandria is on the restricted list in vintage: if you draw twice as many cards as your opponent, it becomes very hard for them to beat you.
If you have a creature that makes me draw 50% more cards than you do, and you paid your own mana and a card for it, and I only lose 2 for the gamble to go up a card, it's a very good day for me.
It's an equally good day for me, if my opponent is ignorant enough to ignore other axis of the game just to draw more cards, especially when they are constantly losing life (the equivalent of allowing the opponent to draw a card) and/or using Brainstorms at inopportune times to guarantee the extra land, especially in a format where 90% of the lands cost 1 life to use and/or will increase the power of Price of Progress.
Goblin Guide is the best aggressive red one-drop, with a drawback that has had years of testing behind it to fully understand how other decks interact with its drawback. If you think that the axis of damage to cards is irrelevant and can be fully countermanded with more cards, then I find it hard to believe that you have years of experience playing MTG. This is entire premise of what Sligh was built on, and why it became successful - if you want a modern day example with Goblin Guide of this, watch Patrick Sullivan's win of SCG Open Edison in 2011 vs a field of Caw-Blade.
The card is very efficient for the amount of damage it provides and mana it costs, and is also completely mono-red, not requiring other colors like Zoo's creatures.
So is vexing devil, but nobody plays with it. I actually feel the devil is better because it actually kills mongoose and germ tokens (if it lands), and doesn't let my opponent get free cards, but I still wouldn't use either.
EDIT: Devil will never kill a germ token, because if it does, that means they gained four life, and unless you have enough instant-speed burn to kill them on the spot, you are not winning that game. Versus Thresh, Devil isn't going to land until about the same point that they would have a 4/5 Goyf, so it's rarely getting through there. Goblin Guide can get through early Mongeese and Delvers if it's deployed Turn 1, and Grim Lavamancer makes destroying Delver easy.
Personally, in Legacy Burn, the only creatures I like are 4x Goblin Guide and 4x Grim Lavamancer. That allows you to SB Ensnaring Bridge and Searing Blaze/Blood, which allows you to turn into a control deck with an aggressive plan, while blanking removal and presenting cards that certain decks simply cannot defeat without a very good knowledge of Burn sideboard strategy.
Vexing Devil actually is relatively common in Burn.
What would you use in place of those two creatures?
Vexing Devil is a punisher card, where the best mode (turn 1, sac for 4 damage) is generally equal to a turn 1 Goblin Guide (swing twice for 4 total). Drawing either late game is not great, but Guide has the ability to do more then 4 damage and with Grim and Searing Blaze, you can encourage that. Devil, when drawn late, will either hit the field and be destroyed by Lightning Bolt/STP/Decay, be blocked by a TNN or Batterskull. If they have any life remaining they'll choose whichever option is better. It's the main reason why punisher cards simply don't work unless both options are almost identical.
Devil is also much more common in Modern, where doing 4 damage for R is more important, and Bolting it Turn 1 can cost three life by itself. However, in a format dominated by Bolt, Helix, and Kitchen Finks, I would not be comfortable playing it.
EDIT: Devil will never kill a germ token, because if it does, that means they gained four life, and unless you have enough instant-speed burn to kill them on the spot, you are not winning that game. Versus Thresh, Devil isn't going to land until about the same point that they would have a 4/5 Goyf, so it's rarely getting through there. Goblin Guide can get through early Mongeese and Delvers if it's deployed Turn 1, and Grim Lavamancer makes destroying Delver easy.
Personally, in Legacy Burn, the only creatures I like are 4x Goblin Guide and 4x Grim Lavamancer. That allows you to SB Ensnaring Bridge and Searing Blaze/Blood, which allows you to turn into a control deck with an aggressive plan, while blanking removal and presenting cards that certain decks simply cannot defeat without a very good knowledge of Burn sideboard strategy.
Cards you'll need:
4x goblin guide
4x eidolon of the great revel
2x grim lavamancer
4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
4x lava spike
4x rift bolt
4x fireblast
4x price of progress
Optional, but worth it:
4x searing blaze
4x flame rift
+ 2x grim lavamancer
8-12 red fetchlands (I'd recommend at least 8 with 2x Grim. The reprint in Khans makes this much cheaper)
SB
2-3 Sulfuric Vortex
Sadly, most of the optimal burn cards aren't really replaceable. Vexing Devil is ok, but I think Grim is generally better.
I agree much more with this, plus it's also a great 1-drop. If you want to play them, 4 is correct if you run 10-12 fetchlands. Drawing 2 just means the first one immediately gets destroyed, which is not that big of a deal. Run 2-3 with 8 or less fetches.
With the ONS fetches, add more Grim Lavamancers, and play more fetches. Searing effects and Flames of the Blood Hand are good for reach, but you really don't want that many 3-CMC spells, and Grim makes playing them harder.
This. Also, Vortex is good SB card, but is not as good in the maindeck as it use to be due to Abrupt Decay, the increased number of creatures in decks, and Ediolon being good enough to warrant maindeck play. It's also only really amazing versus Miracles, and is good versus Blade if the board is kind of clear.
I agree on this being a deck where "don't fix it if it's not broken" applies, with a little room for flex slots. The SB is where you can experiment a bit more.
Current SB:
4x Searing Blood (any creature deck, 4x Searing Blaze main)
4x Molten Rain (UWR decks, possibly BG if on the draw, needs testing)
3x Smash to Smithereens (Affinity)
2x Torpor Orb (Twin, Pod, UWR Kikki Twin, any UW Flash or Finks decks) (I've found these to really be worth it even though they aren't Burn)
2x Flex slot (between Relic of Progenitus, Guerilla Tactics, Cryoclasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Dragon's Claw)
While I agree with the logic behind the amount of land you want, I would highly recommend against running more than 12 fetches for filtering. At that point you border on drawing dead fetches pretty often and start taking about 3-4 damage per game, not counting untapped shock lands. This is from experience in Legacy, where running 4 Grim and 4 Searing Blaze is much more common.
I'd suggest 12 red fetches, 20 total land (it's the same as 19 with 12 fetches) and maxing out on Grim and Searing Blaze.
I'd highly recommend never playing any non-red land in this deck. We don't care about Blood Moon and IMO can't risk playing around it.
Fetches were around 10-12 each throughout there T2 tenure, with the exception of release as everyone scrambled to get copies for non T2 formats. I remember buying Arid Mesas for 10 each from TNT and trading for Marsh Flats at 8 around the release of ROE. The ZEN fetches didn't break 10-12 until about a year or more after rotation.
I think the question now is, do we try to move toward 4x Grim in lists with more fetches to support it? I think we can also cut the amount of shocks down to two copies, at least in Boros Burn. Dega Burn also doesn't need Marsh Flats anymore.
SCG put up its preorder prices for Khans fetches:
Blue $25, and all sold out.
Windswept Heath: $20, sold out.
Red: $20, not sold out.
Original nonblue fell to 30, and Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta went to $50 and $60 respectively.
Burn is very much an acquired taste IMO, and you will be a dog in a lot of matchups. The deck can also be repetitive and feel mind-numbing. The deck can also require intensive planning for multiple turns to keep tempo going and pressure applied while dodging soft countermagic and Tarmogoyfs.
It is, however, a very cheap deck to acquire price-wise, and the only expensive cards that are Legacy-only are Chain Lightning and 2-4 Onslaught fetchlands. If you like the deck and enjoy the playstyle, I would go for it. I would also point out that Burn is weaker in Modern then in Legacy, and the results show - so I might not recommend Burn as your Modern deck for long because it has trouble with lots of popular cards. Legacy Burn is better equipped to handle its format's problems, and has more powerful inexpensive cards to answer them.
IMO, I would build Burn for Legacy, if you enjoy playing the deck, and test it for Modern before deciding on it.
Burn
Lou Stefanovic
14th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 6/8/2014
Creatures (11)
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hellspark Elemental
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Lands (20)
10 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
Spells (29)
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
2 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Searing Blaze
4 Smash to Smithereens
Burn
Jamie Syed
16th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 6/8/2014
Creatures (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Lands (20)
8 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
Spells (28)
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Satyr Firedancer
3 Red Elemental Blast
Not sure if we want that many creatures, particularly Revoker, and I think we still need Ensnaring Bridge in the board. Nevertheless, an impressive performance from both of them.
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Shard Volley
4x Skullcrack
4x Searing Blaze
4x Searing Blood
4x Boros Charm
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Marsh Flats
2x Sacred Foundry
8x Mountain
This is a bit closer to a Legacy list, but I think it's solid. Possibly Helix in the maindeck or SB?
It's an equally good day for me, if my opponent is ignorant enough to ignore other axis of the game just to draw more cards, especially when they are constantly losing life (the equivalent of allowing the opponent to draw a card) and/or using Brainstorms at inopportune times to guarantee the extra land, especially in a format where 90% of the lands cost 1 life to use and/or will increase the power of Price of Progress.
Goblin Guide is the best aggressive red one-drop, with a drawback that has had years of testing behind it to fully understand how other decks interact with its drawback. If you think that the axis of damage to cards is irrelevant and can be fully countermanded with more cards, then I find it hard to believe that you have years of experience playing MTG. This is entire premise of what Sligh was built on, and why it became successful - if you want a modern day example with Goblin Guide of this, watch Patrick Sullivan's win of SCG Open Edison in 2011 vs a field of Caw-Blade.
Vexing Devil is a punisher card, where the best mode (turn 1, sac for 4 damage) is generally equal to a turn 1 Goblin Guide (swing twice for 4 total). Drawing either late game is not great, but Guide has the ability to do more then 4 damage and with Grim and Searing Blaze, you can encourage that. Devil, when drawn late, will either hit the field and be destroyed by Lightning Bolt/STP/Decay, be blocked by a TNN or Batterskull. If they have any life remaining they'll choose whichever option is better. It's the main reason why punisher cards simply don't work unless both options are almost identical.
Devil is also much more common in Modern, where doing 4 damage for R is more important, and Bolting it Turn 1 can cost three life by itself. However, in a format dominated by Bolt, Helix, and Kitchen Finks, I would not be comfortable playing it.
EDIT: Devil will never kill a germ token, because if it does, that means they gained four life, and unless you have enough instant-speed burn to kill them on the spot, you are not winning that game. Versus Thresh, Devil isn't going to land until about the same point that they would have a 4/5 Goyf, so it's rarely getting through there. Goblin Guide can get through early Mongeese and Delvers if it's deployed Turn 1, and Grim Lavamancer makes destroying Delver easy.
Personally, in Legacy Burn, the only creatures I like are 4x Goblin Guide and 4x Grim Lavamancer. That allows you to SB Ensnaring Bridge and Searing Blaze/Blood, which allows you to turn into a control deck with an aggressive plan, while blanking removal and presenting cards that certain decks simply cannot defeat without a very good knowledge of Burn sideboard strategy.