My only qualm with Banishing light is that, while it's a good card, it may be a bit to reactive for what this list wants to accomplish. That, and it's a matter of what would I cut (and where) for them without diluting the core strategy of the deck? I could certainly be wrong though.
Thanks for the input!
It is certainly a reactive card. The idea here is though that some times we need to respond to certain threats as we can. Jund Monsters is very good at this with Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay among the rest of their disruption.
In fact we can somewhat equate the use of Banishing Light to Thoughtseize in the Jund lists. Thoughtseize is used by Jund to catch problem cards in the opponents hands before they can cast them. Unfortunately for us, white doesn't really have this catch all. For us we need to use multiple cards to answer their threats. Banishing Light in a way is our Plummet/Selesnya charm 3-4, our mortars 3-5, our deicide/unravel 3-4, and one of our better answers to planeswalkers that doesn't require us devoting turns swinging into them.
My version I'm taking to game day. Thoughts? Especially the mana base. Still tweaking that.
Tate, your list is extremely similar to mine. The main thing I can see is the 3 coursers. I feel it is one our core cards and deserves to be a four of. Any reason behind only 3?
Hope everyone does well at game day today, looking forward to seeing some results posts later.
Ok all, as I'm going to gameday tomorrow at my LGS I figured I'd post my take on Naya Monsters to get some constructive feedback. Here's my current list, I'll explain my choices afterwards:
I studied numerous Jund lists to see what the main core of the decks were, and for the most part they shared the same core as the G/R Monsters build. Where they differed mainly was in lands, spells, and in the sideboard. I took these differences into account and ended up with what you see here. I haven't really had any issues with making G, R, or W mana with the way the mana base is atm. The Boros Charms are a concession to Supreme Verdict. All three modes have the potential to get used though. The creature base is pretty standard for these type of builds. I didn't want to deviate too much, lest it just end up as either Big Naya or a totally different direction entirely. Chandra is a nod to the uprise in aggro decks and to help push through damage.
I really like this list as you know exactly what you want from the white. But, I have a few questions on card choices. Firstly, do you feel the full four Boros Charms are necessary, specifically the two in the main. The two in the main look to be eating up 2 of your removal slots. Is it a strong enough option to run in the main?
My second question is directed at the Plummets. The major upside to Plummet that I see as compared to Selesnya Charm is that it can nab Archangel of Thune or mirror Stormbreaths. Selesnya Charm has the opportunity to nab Polukranos, and has two other modes; one of which is a very valid combat trick. I am honestly not sure which is better here though.
I like the Nylea's Disciple in the extra defense slots against burn and smaller aggro. Luckily against small aggro we are already good at gumming up the boards with our caryatids, coursers, and scavenging oozes. These creatures also offer us incremental lifegain options as well. Thus, I am not sure if courage is necessary against little aggro lists, and seems moderately weaker in the burn match up.
My last sideboard related question is Unravel vs. Deicide. Within this format I cannot think of a major target that Unravel nabs that Deicide wouldn't. Deicide has the plus of exiling rather than shuffling. (Although there are corner cases that shuffling may be better with scry in the format.)
Also, Voice of Resurgence, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, and Banishing Light all seem like notable omissions from your list. Are there any reasons in particular you chose not to include them?
I'm totally sold on Naya Monsters now after playing it the last few days. I used to try Nighthowler in GB decks and Eidolon does the same sort of thing but more consistent earlier. As I suspected with all the decks out to pounce you back Stormbreath is very good. I think the really exemplary part of the deck though is being able to play Voice of Resurgence, and Eidolon with Xenagos. Not that I really want more Xenagos.. the 3rd might be warranted. It's not difficult to set up these board states with rather large creatures quickly.
In basic I think this deck is better against Bx decks than GR or Jund. It has the same game plan but Voice is soooo good there. Compared to GR you do some more damage to yourself but it's basically the same game plan. Compared to Jund there isn't quite the ability to attrition because Light doesn't stay on the table and Golgari Charm is so good where its good. However you come out the gates so much bigger than Jund can hope to muster to the point I.m not convinced the spot removal matters. Where you lose Doom Blade and Abrupt Decay you get Glare of Heresy. This deck might be slightly worse against Hexproof without Thoughtseize and less instant speed enchantment removal but outside of that it can push both more aggressively and can jam up the board more efficiently. I suspect with Ajani and Eidolon with Voice the pressure on their Sphere effects early will be enough to find something to get ahead and put them in lunging distance.
The biggest contention between this and Brave Naya in my books. I think having Stormbreath is a big enough boon to warrant it since you can run it defensively and aggressively to great effect in this format. I am not saying I've optimized the build especially not the board to the degree of GR or Jund but I already think it is showing more promise than both of those.
I am having a hard time grasping what purpose Eidolon of Countless Battles carries within a monsters styled list. Could you further elaborate?
I have been running a Naya Monsters list recently. White provides us with a handful of all-stars that have been discussed by some of the above posts, but here is what I have noticed. Voice is a powerful early game card that puts control and attrition decks in an offset postion. Ajani is a card I thoroughly enjoy in my list. He plays similar to Domri/Huge Garruk in that he provides a card advantage engine, but what I most like about him is that he can turn our dorks and mutavaults into real threats. Banishing light is easily one of my favorite additions. It plays out as our catch all in game 1, and continues to provide a powerful upside against the more controlly match ups.
So, unrelated to the commander hub-bub above, anyone else notice that Bitterblossom's price has risen a fair amount over the last day or so? Is this possibly related to a leak of its unbanning, or is this because of something else?
The thing is, the more I test, the more I find I don't care about the 2-drops. Winning off the Kalonian Hydra is nice, but really the Hammer just keeps the opponent on the defensive and gives fat more oomph. Not seeing trouble with mana; not sure what you mean.
Ah, sorry. I don't know how I missed that being in this thread. So how does a typical game play out for you? Ramp to a turn 2-4 hammer? and proceed to drop a guy and get damage?
Against control, yes. Makes sure creatures have a better chance to get damage in and makes land drops relevant. I seriously would not underestimate the ability, either. After hitting 5 lands, or if I need just a few more points in, it works better than I really ever expected it to.
Are you still running the list you posted in the now archived SNCD? All the ramp creatures, few aggressive low drops, and Anger of the Gods? If so, I have trouble following this game plan in the first place, you are trying to win off of Hammer + Kalonian Hydra? Like I said, I don't doubt the hammer's playability, I just don't see how it is better than Domri against control in the kind of list that Talroma is currently playing.
In general, the list you posted seems to have a little synergy problem as well. While I like the thought of hasting a Hydra, you should make sure you see a Hydra every game; you need to run all four of them. Hammer is legendary, I think 3 is pushing the envelope on the number of them you should run. I do how ever like and dislike the synergy of Anger the Gods and Boros Reckoner. The downside is you lose your guys, but it can be a late game blowout with multiple Reckoners on the field.
You say after five mana you can start using Hammer as a mana sink, but are you able to keep up Charm mana late in the game where you really need the last bit damage pushed through? Your list seems light on spot removal. what do you when opposing players drop Blood Baron of Vizkopa game one? Especially when the BW deck is going to carry 1-for-1 removal for your midgame aggression?
Domri Rade has the ability to do 4 things.
- Draw Creatures from the top on a regular basis
- Provide spot removal for Alpha strikes and problematic Board states
- If dropped early against control, you will gain tons of advantage if they are unable to answer it.
- Occasionally, you can sneak a win by fighting a guy with a Reckoner
I understand that your list isn't designed for Domri; you run a large amount of noncreature spells, and some of them are even among your biggest beaters.
Just some thoughts. Sorry if it comes across angrily, that is not my point. I just want to give you some constructive criticism.
(If you are no longer running the list from SNCD, disregard all of this and post us a new list.)
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A return of Leylines would be nice, new or old.
Go For the Throat would be nice as well.
It is certainly a reactive card. The idea here is though that some times we need to respond to certain threats as we can. Jund Monsters is very good at this with Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay among the rest of their disruption.
In fact we can somewhat equate the use of Banishing Light to Thoughtseize in the Jund lists. Thoughtseize is used by Jund to catch problem cards in the opponents hands before they can cast them. Unfortunately for us, white doesn't really have this catch all. For us we need to use multiple cards to answer their threats. Banishing Light in a way is our Plummet/Selesnya charm 3-4, our mortars 3-5, our deicide/unravel 3-4, and one of our better answers to planeswalkers that doesn't require us devoting turns swinging into them.
Tate, your list is extremely similar to mine. The main thing I can see is the 3 coursers. I feel it is one our core cards and deserves to be a four of. Any reason behind only 3?
Hope everyone does well at game day today, looking forward to seeing some results posts later.
I really like this list as you know exactly what you want from the white. But, I have a few questions on card choices. Firstly, do you feel the full four Boros Charms are necessary, specifically the two in the main. The two in the main look to be eating up 2 of your removal slots. Is it a strong enough option to run in the main?
My second question is directed at the Plummets. The major upside to Plummet that I see as compared to Selesnya Charm is that it can nab Archangel of Thune or mirror Stormbreaths. Selesnya Charm has the opportunity to nab Polukranos, and has two other modes; one of which is a very valid combat trick. I am honestly not sure which is better here though.
I like the Nylea's Disciple in the extra defense slots against burn and smaller aggro. Luckily against small aggro we are already good at gumming up the boards with our caryatids, coursers, and scavenging oozes. These creatures also offer us incremental lifegain options as well. Thus, I am not sure if courage is necessary against little aggro lists, and seems moderately weaker in the burn match up.
My last sideboard related question is Unravel vs. Deicide. Within this format I cannot think of a major target that Unravel nabs that Deicide wouldn't. Deicide has the plus of exiling rather than shuffling. (Although there are corner cases that shuffling may be better with scry in the format.)
Also, Voice of Resurgence, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, and Banishing Light all seem like notable omissions from your list. Are there any reasons in particular you chose not to include them?
I am having a hard time grasping what purpose Eidolon of Countless Battles carries within a monsters styled list. Could you further elaborate?
I have been running a Naya Monsters list recently. White provides us with a handful of all-stars that have been discussed by some of the above posts, but here is what I have noticed. Voice is a powerful early game card that puts control and attrition decks in an offset postion. Ajani is a card I thoroughly enjoy in my list. He plays similar to Domri/Huge Garruk in that he provides a card advantage engine, but what I most like about him is that he can turn our dorks and mutavaults into real threats. Banishing light is easily one of my favorite additions. It plays out as our catch all in game 1, and continues to provide a powerful upside against the more controlly match ups.
I figured as much, but wasn't sure if it was ran alongside Tarmo.
EDIT: OPPS! Nevermind.... I found it. I thought it was alphabetical.
I originally played them in a Tajic list, but it has fallen out of flavor for me.
I would use Rafiq of the Many but there already is one such list in my play group.
I want to build a deck focused on using equipment. (In particular the Swords of X and Y.)
Note: I looked for the original thread from a year ago, and it stated for these threads to be posted here.
Ah, sorry. I don't know how I missed that being in this thread. So how does a typical game play out for you? Ramp to a turn 2-4 hammer? and proceed to drop a guy and get damage?
Are you still running the list you posted in the now archived SNCD? All the ramp creatures, few aggressive low drops, and Anger of the Gods? If so, I have trouble following this game plan in the first place, you are trying to win off of Hammer + Kalonian Hydra? Like I said, I don't doubt the hammer's playability, I just don't see how it is better than Domri against control in the kind of list that Talroma is currently playing.
In general, the list you posted seems to have a little synergy problem as well. While I like the thought of hasting a Hydra, you should make sure you see a Hydra every game; you need to run all four of them. Hammer is legendary, I think 3 is pushing the envelope on the number of them you should run. I do how ever like and dislike the synergy of Anger the Gods and Boros Reckoner. The downside is you lose your guys, but it can be a late game blowout with multiple Reckoners on the field.
You say after five mana you can start using Hammer as a mana sink, but are you able to keep up Charm mana late in the game where you really need the last bit damage pushed through? Your list seems light on spot removal. what do you when opposing players drop Blood Baron of Vizkopa game one? Especially when the BW deck is going to carry 1-for-1 removal for your midgame aggression?
Domri Rade has the ability to do 4 things.
- Draw Creatures from the top on a regular basis
- Provide spot removal for Alpha strikes and problematic Board states
- If dropped early against control, you will gain tons of advantage if they are unable to answer it.
- Occasionally, you can sneak a win by fighting a guy with a Reckoner
I understand that your list isn't designed for Domri; you run a large amount of noncreature spells, and some of them are even among your biggest beaters.
Just some thoughts. Sorry if it comes across angrily, that is not my point. I just want to give you some constructive criticism.
(If you are no longer running the list from SNCD, disregard all of this and post us a new list.)