Why would anyone run ancient grudge outside of trash for treasure eggs? That's mind boggling...
It's either a case of splashing for it (which ruins the manabase and hurts the stability of the combo) or using eggs to filter for it(which for pre-combo anti-hate, is completely counterproductive).
Anything you need to cast before you go-off cannot rely on the eggs for mana fixing. Not to take away from the 3-1, but I'd like to know the situations where he needed grudge to be grudge and not repeal/wipeaway/echoing truth/etc...
He admitted his sideboard was bad. Don't read too much into it.
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But searching defense grid by reshape it's 1 lotus bloom loss and even though after remand targeting bloom you should have 3 lands on battlefield which with reshape/ghost quarter makes opportunity to combo off
Try silence instead of defence grid - it gives option to save from hatecards and doesn'y shot down your options to instant speed combo
You don't understand, having silence in the deck is the same sort of out as a defense grid, you find it just as often without searching, but defense grid CAN be reshaped for, meaning it's easier to have the longer the game goes on. Not to mention if your opponent has 2 counters it's waaaay better than silence, since it stops both instead of forcing you to hope to god your opponent's only got one counter and used it on silence.
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Delver decks it's not a real problem - u can make a lot of mana to fight with remands spell pierce and mana leaks - Spell Snare it's not a huge problem ;] But even though silence would be better than defence grind becouse u can draw some cards after his tappout and playing sunrise on instant speed
How do you beat a turn 1 delver and a turn 4 remand on your single bloom? You can't. Defense grid lets you beat that (if it's in your opener) or make sure your first sunrise effect will resolve and let you go off even in a tight spot for mana. I have never regretted having it in the main.
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Main
IMO is too slow. Lots of potentially dead cards like
especially
3 Terrarion (in this build)
and
1 Locket of Yesterdays
1 defense grid
1 Pithing Needle
only one? how they work with the combo? how they win?
ok we could play these cards with reshape but...
Terrarion is the only real egg in the deck and works well with KCI.
The toolbox cards can be reshaped and beat the game 1 hate that occasionally comes up (defense grid is the only way we have a chance against any delver deck). Not to mention they are all artifacts, so they are never dead, just not as exciting as a chromatic.
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Alright, it's pretty cool that eggs 3-1'd with my list, and I just talked to the guy about it and we both came to similar conclusions about the deck. So here is my most recent list. Any questions/comments?
Yes, but it doesn't target. Most players shortcut and just state which creature they are bonding to, but in reality they can bond to whoever they want after the trigger resolves.
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@Mcpatches Ya, the more I look at it the more I realize that it's just too expensive. If it were 4 mana it would be an entirely different story. I may cut it for more battle hymn and maybe some more beat down.
@DampingEngine I actually didn't see this whatsoever, as weird as that is. Thanks a ton for that. I had a feeling I was missing something, I'll put that in the OP.
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@rat-of-god: Artful dodge is more cute than effective, and it has no inherent card advantage. I would run it if it cantripped or something. Hellrider though, is a good idea. He can be played easily off of battle hymn. I'll look into it.
@Jgorfain: I appreciate you sharing, but this thread is about the deck I posted in the OP.
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Alright so, if you clicked on this thread then you should be looking for a fun FNM deck and not take this seriously. If you think I'm trying to break the meta, you are wrong, I just wanted to mess around and have some fun with some new cards. Without further ado, here is the list.
Okay, so it's not an infinite combo, nor is it a good combo, but it's silly as hell when you start going off and your opponent is baffled. If you don't see it yet, here is how it breaks down:
You need to have one of the untapping creatures on the field, being Captain of the Mists or Midnight Guard, then you put a Dual Casting on them. Then you use one of the 3 token making cards (Increasing Devotion, Thatcher Revolt, or Gather the Townsfolk). Then you use the creature to copy the spell, letting the spell resolve and the creature untaps when the tokens enter, repeat this process numerous times until you have as many tokens as you need or until you are almost out of mana. If you need more mana you use a battle hymn to restock your mana pool, or have an Arcane Melee out (making all of the cards much cheaper). If you need to find a burn at the stake to finish you can dig using Mass Appeal or the loothouse. The finishers are obviously, burn at the stake, kruin striker, and champion of the parish, with the potential to just beat down.
So, now that you get how it works, let's look into card selection a bit:
Champion of the Parish: All of our creatures and tokens are humans, and he is an insane 1 drop. Basically an auto include.
Increasing Devotion: I wanted a 9th copy of a token maker, and this one makes humans and has the added value of flashback. With a melee out it costs 10 total to cast (front and back sides).
Mass Appeal: Great card if you can get a lot of humans out, which we can. Melee makes it cost U. If you dual cast it you also get some insane value.
Battle Hymn: The only actual ritual in standard, and because it scales with the number of creatures you have, it let's you nearly triple the number of tokens you are getting (can even be more depending on the situation).
Burn at the Stake: Nice finisher that only requires 7 creautres on the board to win.
Arcane Melee: This card was where this beast was spawned. We opened 3 of these at our local pre-release (in a group of friends) and 2 later on for some drafting. My friend challenged me to make a deck that works well with or is based around Arcane Melee, I think I may have accomplished that goal (albeit shaky). This card makes every other card in the deck have a reasonable casting cost. Thatcher Revolt for R, devotion for 1WW, Mass appeal for U, and etc.
As always, if you have any constructive criticism, please leave a reply and explain your reasoning.
Reforge the soul as a 2-3 of, it is a good finisher, but you need a lot more lands to make it good, also dint want too many
pheonix as an 3 of too mana heavy
Thunderous as an 0 of, that card sucks w/o brainstorm, especially at 20 lands
gut shot as an x of depending on the metagame
stormblood as a 3 of because we cant enable him as well
Awsome deck though!
So, decrease the consistency in every possible way? None of these suggestions seem good, sorry to say. All the miracles and phoenix can be discarded to looting, tibalt, or even the wheel of fortune. So there won't be cards getting stranded in your hand.
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In a deck running Tibalt, relying on Miracles is a bad idea. You don't have any reliable means to discard them, and getting to 6 mana to pay for a Thunderous Wrath is a ridiculous task for a burn deck. Any miracles you draw with Tibalt are dead in the water. Red is not going to be a monolithic deck after AVR; there are going to be multiple archetypes. Tibalt decks are probably going to involve heavy graveyard interplay (Past in Flames), with lots of cheap utility spells with flashback built around it. Wheel of Fortune could make an appearance. Red miracles will incorporate Noxious Revival (who cares about life total?), Faithless Looting, and Reforge the Soul to get the right spells into play cheaply.
I actually just realized, as I was reading your post that I forgot Faithless Looting... Although I do agree with you somewhat, I'm going to proxy this up and play test it tomorrow to see how Tibalt goes.
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Stromkirk Noble: He has been a classic since Innistrad first hit, he has some very nice evasion and is basically slith firewalker.
Tibalt, the Fiend Blooded: The first 2 mana planeswalker, every ability is powerful in it's own right, and runeflare trapping as early as turn 4 or insurrection late game makes him a threat on his own. 4 Is probably the wrong number, but that's why it's a rough draft.
Reforge the Soul: Wheel of fortune is exactly what red needs if it every wants to win past turn 5 or so, and it won't get stranded in hand very often due to being dropped from another one or tibalt discards it.
Chandra's Phoenix: Very obvious inclusion, if it gets discarded you can get it back, and it's a hasty evasive flying 2/2.
Vexing Devil: An underrated card. If you have it on turn 1 you get to just dome them for 4, if they let it hit then you just got a 1 mana 4/3. Very powerful early game.
Thunderous Wrath: This deck is more of a burn deck than anything else, and having a 5 mana burn spell is very powerful, especially when you can use it as early as turn 2.
Grim Lavamancer: Much lower power level card since the fetchlands rotated, but now that we have several powerful discard outlets he has enough fuel for his fire.
How does it work?
Step 1: Cut a hole in a box.
Step 2: Throw the flames in that box.
Step 3: Get them to open the box.
That's the way you do it.
More seriously, it's a very low curve red deck that thrives off of the top of it's deck. Because our highest cost card is 3, we can cheat on mana a lot and run only 20 mountains (maybe less). More lands are obviously welcome though, so we can do more things in a single turn. But as long as we have Tibalt on board we can sandbag lands in order to hope to keep gas in hand.
{STILL UPDATING}
He admitted his sideboard was bad. Don't read too much into it.
You don't understand, having silence in the deck is the same sort of out as a defense grid, you find it just as often without searching, but defense grid CAN be reshaped for, meaning it's easier to have the longer the game goes on. Not to mention if your opponent has 2 counters it's waaaay better than silence, since it stops both instead of forcing you to hope to god your opponent's only got one counter and used it on silence.
How do you beat a turn 1 delver and a turn 4 remand on your single bloom? You can't. Defense grid lets you beat that (if it's in your opener) or make sure your first sunrise effect will resolve and let you go off even in a tight spot for mana. I have never regretted having it in the main.
Terrarion is the only real egg in the deck and works well with KCI.
The toolbox cards can be reshaped and beat the game 1 hate that occasionally comes up (defense grid is the only way we have a chance against any delver deck). Not to mention they are all artifacts, so they are never dead, just not as exciting as a chromatic.
(without fetches, would have 3 if I had the tix)
5 Island
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Krark-Clan Ironworks
3 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Chromatic Star
1 Pithing Needle
4 Lotus Bloom
1 Open the Vaults
4 Faith's Reward
1 Banefire
4 Second Sunrise
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Reshape
2 Elsewhere Flask
3 Terrarion
1 Locket of Yesterdays
1 Defense Grid
3 Ichor Wellspring
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Erase
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Defense Grid
That guy seems insane the more I think about it. He's basically channel for B as long as griselbrand is in play.
@DampingEngine I actually didn't see this whatsoever, as weird as that is. Thanks a ton for that. I had a feeling I was missing something, I'll put that in the OP.
@Jgorfain: I appreciate you sharing, but this thread is about the deck I posted in the OP.
3 Captain of the Mists
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Kruin Striker
4 Dual Casting
4 Thatcher Revolt
4 Gather the Townsfolk
1 Increasing Devotion
3 Mass Appeal
2 Battle Hymn
2 Burn at the Stake
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Clifftop Reatreat
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Island
Okay, so it's not an infinite combo, nor is it a good combo, but it's silly as hell when you start going off and your opponent is baffled. If you don't see it yet, here is how it breaks down:
So, now that you get how it works, let's look into card selection a bit:
Midnight Guard/Captain of the Mists: This is how the combo works, so they need to be there.
Kruin Striker: A decent 2 drop who gets huge when we "go off." Also a human, for champion.
Dual Casting: Again, part of our little combo.
Thatcher Revolt: Every time I play this card in limited I'm reminded of how insanely powerful it is. Coincidentally it works with our combo.
Gather the Townsfolk: Same as thatcher revolt pretty much. Also, it's a 2 drop.
Increasing Devotion: I wanted a 9th copy of a token maker, and this one makes humans and has the added value of flashback. With a melee out it costs 10 total to cast (front and back sides).
Mass Appeal: Great card if you can get a lot of humans out, which we can. Melee makes it cost U. If you dual cast it you also get some insane value.
Battle Hymn: The only actual ritual in standard, and because it scales with the number of creatures you have, it let's you nearly triple the number of tokens you are getting (can even be more depending on the situation).
Burn at the Stake: Nice finisher that only requires 7 creautres on the board to win.
Arcane Melee: This card was where this beast was spawned. We opened 3 of these at our local pre-release (in a group of friends) and 2 later on for some drafting. My friend challenged me to make a deck that works well with or is based around Arcane Melee, I think I may have accomplished that goal (albeit shaky). This card makes every other card in the deck have a reasonable casting cost. Thatcher Revolt for R, devotion for 1WW, Mass appeal for U, and etc.
As always, if you have any constructive criticism, please leave a reply and explain your reasoning.
I was talking about Martell's list, the one with Drogskol Captains, Lingering Souls, delver (of course), and Dungeon Geists.
There already are esper lists running intangible virtue just because of lingering souls, so why not run this instead?
*cough* Esper Delver *cough*
So, decrease the consistency in every possible way? None of these suggestions seem good, sorry to say. All the miracles and phoenix can be discarded to looting, tibalt, or even the wheel of fortune. So there won't be cards getting stranded in your hand.
I actually just realized, as I was reading your post that I forgot Faithless Looting... Although I do agree with you somewhat, I'm going to proxy this up and play test it tomorrow to see how Tibalt goes.
Let's get started.
First draft deck list:
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Vexing Devil
4 Thunderous Wrath
4 Stormblood Berserker
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
2 Gut Shot
4 Faithless Looting
Reasons for the cards:
Tibalt, the Fiend Blooded: The first 2 mana planeswalker, every ability is powerful in it's own right, and runeflare trapping as early as turn 4 or insurrection late game makes him a threat on his own. 4 Is probably the wrong number, but that's why it's a rough draft.
Reforge the Soul: Wheel of fortune is exactly what red needs if it every wants to win past turn 5 or so, and it won't get stranded in hand very often due to being dropped from another one or tibalt discards it.
Chandra's Phoenix: Very obvious inclusion, if it gets discarded you can get it back, and it's a hasty evasive flying 2/2.
Vexing Devil: An underrated card. If you have it on turn 1 you get to just dome them for 4, if they let it hit then you just got a 1 mana 4/3. Very powerful early game.
Thunderous Wrath: This deck is more of a burn deck than anything else, and having a 5 mana burn spell is very powerful, especially when you can use it as early as turn 2.
Grim Lavamancer: Much lower power level card since the fetchlands rotated, but now that we have several powerful discard outlets he has enough fuel for his fire.
Stormblood Berserker, Gut Shot, Shrine of Burning Rage: Standrad RDW cards, fairly obvious to have.
How does it work?
Step 1: Cut a hole in a box.
Step 2: Throw the flames in that box.
Step 3: Get them to open the box.
That's the way you do it.
More seriously, it's a very low curve red deck that thrives off of the top of it's deck. Because our highest cost card is 3, we can cheat on mana a lot and run only 20 mountains (maybe less). More lands are obviously welcome though, so we can do more things in a single turn. But as long as we have Tibalt on board we can sandbag lands in order to hope to keep gas in hand.
{STILL UPDATING}