The rules explain why you can't shortcut the outcome of this combo. The judge is the one who has to use discretion to decide whether you're advancing the game state. If you combo can be manually performed in a timely manner and you are advancing the game state (perhaps dealing damage to your opponent at least once for each time you have to shuffle your graveyard into your library), then you will probably be allowed to continue repeating those actions. If you are just milling yourself repeatedly with the sole purpose of trying to get to a game state where there is a single card in your library (Gaea's Blessing), that is not advancing the game state reasonably, and the judge should tell you to do something else.
The rules regarding advancing the game state aren't very clearly defined, because it's just about impossible to create an objective definition of what "advancing the game state" means. So it's left to interpretation and discretion.
Also, these "unshortcuttable loop" situations are so few and far between that they don't merit anywhere near the discussion that actually occurs.
I mean, say I did one damage to him each time I shuffled, but he was at thirty-trillion life. Am I progressing the game-state?
I'll probably just have to accept the fact that there isn't a definitive answer to this, but in your opinion as a judge, what would you do? Where would you draw the line between letting me continue and letting my opponent win?
I understand that I can't shortcut it because I can't show the outcome.
Now say that my opponent will win if he untaps and I can prove to the judge that I will win if I could achieve this situation. What happens? Do we draw unless I can find it in time?
Ideally in magic, something shouldn't change from judge to judge. Is there something in the rules that definitively says that this isn't allowed? or is it solely up to the judge's discretion?
Please use the edit button, it's there for a reason. Merged. ~parinoid
Also, what happens if I loop it to put ten-billion Mesmeric Orb triggers on the stack?
Will that have the game result in a draw due to the fact that we can't play that out in a reasonable time-frame?
I couldn't find an answer to this anywhere. As far as I can tell, this is going to very a lot and is something that you are going to want to talk to the head judge about before hand, but here we go:
Say I control a Mesmeric Orb and a Basalt Monolith. I also have something with a Gaea's Blessing trigger in my library. This will work with any Eldrazi and infinite mill combo.
The only way that I can win is if I mill myself until the only card left in my library is the one Gaea's Blessing in my deck.
By summoning do you mean cast? (or play, for old people) or do you mean heartless summoning? Because if it's the former, parinoid is correct, otherwise I am confused...
Anyways, one thing about parinoids response that may have been unclear is that your opponent can kill your zombie any time they have priority, so it could be during your main phase, in which case you would not be able to even cast the gravecrawler.
This thread is just hilarious in hindsight. Posters like Foobar calling Wolf Run a bad card now must feel pretty silly. The card is basically the most dominant card in standard for several weeks now - with not one but THREE different archetypes (two if you want to nitpick) putting up 1st place finishes at major tournaments: Wolf Run Red, Wolf Run Ramp (and the non-dungrove version, technically two different decks). I'm also pleasantly surprised to see people abusing this card from different angles: Primeval Titan, useage in weenie decks as a repeatable fireball (the main use we all saw here in this thread), use with otherwise insane creatures that cannot simply be chumped (Dungrove), etc.
It truly is funny how some cards are just obviously good in a particular context (slow standard) and some people realize it. Then there are always others who say the card will never see play - as was the case here... For those of you who didn't see this coming when LSV rated this in his top cards from Innistrad - now its right in front of you. Kessig Wolf Run, arguably the strongest card in Innistrad. Probably only Snapcaster Mage can contend.
I am quoting you on that, because I know it isn't.
I specualted memoricide right, but we have really nothing on this card. I am assuming it is an instant/sorcery and maybe has something to do with Imp's Mischief?
EDIT: Obviously it's a functional force of will in red, I mean that wouldn't be broken would it?
I mean, the deck seems fine for casual play. If the decks played on cockatrice are anything like the decks played on MWS, then they suck. People don't play real decks on MWS, they play decks that they want to test. Most decks that people want to test are bad.
Gideon's Avenger isn't even an amazing card in limited, not to mention constructed decks. The same thing goes for spirit mantle. Just don't go claiming this will ever come close to winning a ptq or even an FNM.
I realize that the card is probably completely different then what is up there, I still have to point out why the posted card is broken. Also, what is the purpose of this thread if we have no information at all?
I play BUG Landstill in both Overextended and Legacy. The interaction with loam is really powerful lategame, in the early game it isn't really going to do much as more colorless sources are not exactly helpful, especially if you are not wastelanding them to get to 6 mana. (Loam+Land)
The card is really scary in Lands (38 Land, 43 Land, etc...) it gives them a much harder lock then before. To lands, the cost isn't a huge barrier, while loaming back three each turn will always win you the game
At end of turn it loses the Artifact Subtype and reverts back to its' original state, as soon as this happens Master Thief loses control of it because it is no longer a valid permanent for it to let you control.
Nope, that's not how it works. You will still gain control of it for as long as the theif remains in play, at which point the artifact (now no longer an artifact) will be returned. It doesn't matter what kind of permanent it is.
The three best cards in my opinion are turn to frog, assault griffin, and manalith. It's really a tossup between what archetypes end up being the strongest in M12. Manalith is probably the safest pick.
Also, why would anyone first pick levitation? It's a terrible card it doesn't really do anything other than provide card disadvantage (you are playing a card that does nothing to help the board state). If you really wanted it, it's not going to be hard to find one 12-14th pick in any reasonable draft pod.
One major difference there is that my intent is not to waste time, but to win myself the game by milling myself.
Anyways, thank you for your responses, I am probably going to have to accept that there isn't a solid answer to this.
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I mean, say I did one damage to him each time I shuffled, but he was at thirty-trillion life. Am I progressing the game-state?
I'll probably just have to accept the fact that there isn't a definitive answer to this, but in your opinion as a judge, what would you do? Where would you draw the line between letting me continue and letting my opponent win?
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Now say that my opponent will win if he untaps and I can prove to the judge that I will win if I could achieve this situation. What happens? Do we draw unless I can find it in time?
Ideally in magic, something shouldn't change from judge to judge. Is there something in the rules that definitively says that this isn't allowed? or is it solely up to the judge's discretion?
Please use the edit button, it's there for a reason. Merged. ~parinoid
Also, what happens if I loop it to put ten-billion Mesmeric Orb triggers on the stack?
Will that have the game result in a draw due to the fact that we can't play that out in a reasonable time-frame?
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Say I control a Mesmeric Orb and a Basalt Monolith. I also have something with a Gaea's Blessing trigger in my library. This will work with any Eldrazi and infinite mill combo.
The only way that I can win is if I mill myself until the only card left in my library is the one Gaea's Blessing in my deck.
What can I do?
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Anyways, one thing about parinoids response that may have been unclear is that your opponent can kill your zombie any time they have priority, so it could be during your main phase, in which case you would not be able to even cast the gravecrawler.
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This.
Spam warning issued. -viper
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Yes, as does null rod. If you've ever played affinity against null rod, it's not fun...
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I am quoting you on that, because I know it isn't.
I specualted memoricide right, but we have really nothing on this card. I am assuming it is an instant/sorcery and maybe has something to do with Imp's Mischief?
EDIT: Obviously it's a functional force of will in red, I mean that wouldn't be broken would it?
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Gideon's Avenger isn't even an amazing card in limited, not to mention constructed decks. The same thing goes for spirit mantle. Just don't go claiming this will ever come close to winning a ptq or even an FNM.
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I play BUG Landstill in both Overextended and Legacy. The interaction with loam is really powerful lategame, in the early game it isn't really going to do much as more colorless sources are not exactly helpful, especially if you are not wastelanding them to get to 6 mana. (Loam+Land)
The card is really scary in Lands (38 Land, 43 Land, etc...) it gives them a much harder lock then before. To lands, the cost isn't a huge barrier, while loaming back three each turn will always win you the game
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That's a little complex and they haven't done legendary since they changed the way core sets work, so I don't think it's teferi.
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I really want it to be time warp, so I can crush with ascension, but that would be a little too good to be true
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Nope, that's not how it works. You will still gain control of it for as long as the theif remains in play, at which point the artifact (now no longer an artifact) will be returned. It doesn't matter what kind of permanent it is.
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Also, why would anyone first pick levitation? It's a terrible card it doesn't really do anything other than provide card disadvantage (you are playing a card that does nothing to help the board state). If you really wanted it, it's not going to be hard to find one 12-14th pick in any reasonable draft pod.
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no, it won't
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