I don't quite agree with that statement, unless you were referring to Ponder being better than Preordain (which I wouldn't refute for a second). Maybe in some weird vacuum it might be right to say, but I still can't behind the idea that either spell could ever trump B.Storm. As I explained earlier, Brainstorm can hide your Jace, the Mind Sculptor/ your Show and Tell/ your whatever on top of library in response to a discard effect being played (Duress, Hymn, Seize, etc.). As a Reanimator player, you must agree that sometimes you need to hang on to that Show and Tell because that Black player might also have that Leyline in the Void in play which is just shutting you out. Brainstorm can also dig for counters, such as Force of Will and Daze, at instant speed. This can be crucial when you're facing down combo decks such as Reanimator, TPS/ANT, Charbelcher, DFLT, etc. B.Storm isn't useful as an instant because you can play it at EOT, it's useful as an instant since you can use it to dig for answers RIGHT NOW if the alternative is losing the game RIGHT NOW.
Again though, I'm not trying to account for 100% of all situations or rank the cards as #1, 2 and 3 or anything. I'm trying to give a general guideline for playing the cards that most people can follow ~85% of the time. Nothing that I've said here is perfect, there's always going to weird, niche cases that my general logic doesn't account for. Still, I will stand by my statement that Brainstorm is typically always going to be the best of the 3 in decks with plenty of fetchlands to support it, even in Legacy. Is that true 100% of the time? Absolutely not. I just think that it's "correct" "enough" of the time to make it a fairly justifiable claim. Most Legacy decks with fetchlands, even combo decks, will use 4 Brainstorms before they use 4 Ponders. If you read any of Bryant Cook's articles/reports (the man basically invented Storm decks for anyone who doesn't know), he's almost always cutting a Ponder or so to make room for sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. I have never seen him cut a Brainstorm even once, and I've read every report/article he's ever written. So, even if you don't care about me or what I think, it has to say something about the card if the Storm God himself won't cut it even though Ponder can dig him 1 card deeper to help his deck go off.
Sorry what I meant was that Ponder is better than Preordain in many Legacy Decks.
My apologies for the confusion.
Cook's a great man, he even got me interested in EDH by displaying a consistent enough storm combo (but it got banned out =((( ).
Yup, current reanimator lists cuts Ponder too because it feels somewhat meh.
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It's virtually never right to B.Storm on turn 1 unless you REALLY need to dig into a land so that you can like Entomb + Reanimate on turn 2 or something (maybe to win the game before that combo decks goes off in your face). Super rare, niche cases at best. Even then I don't think that it's the right play, but maybe in some cases it could be. I don't play Reanimator/ANT/TPS enough to know for sure. I'd just always rather wait until turn 2 so that I could play a fetch and then mainphase B.Storm. I won't pretend like I have million games with every deck under my belt or anything, but I can't think of many "good" arguments to roll it out on turn 1 (I'm purposely ignoring situations where you're trying to dig for a Force of Will/Daze to counter game winning spells obviously, since plays like that are clearly correct 100% of the time).
Correct. I play Reanimator currently, used to play Doomsday Storm too. For reanimator, unless you mull to 4-5 and still got NOTHING, yes BS on turn 1 or your opponent turn after yours EOT (but more often than not, you're probably hoping that he kept a screwy hand too).
More like to combo off/grab protection pieces before the lock comes down or before he stabilizes (more turns for your opponent allows better sculpting, means a thicker wall of counters and disruptions, not to mention aggro-control decks like merfolks have both counters and a fast clock).
tich, this is one of the best explanations I have seen online for BS, Ponder and Preordain. Great job! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
However, I would like to point out that, for Legacy decks with plentiful of shuffle effects, Ponder is still better as it can dig deeper, for whatever stuff you think you might need. =)
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Might one to check out the Soul Sisters Thread in the Legacy Developing forums, they are the guys working on it. (I ran a mono W one for budget reasons, though probably selling the pieces for my budget enchantress).
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Ok, I have to admit I got you wrong on this one in the first place.
I play RDW and Goblins regularly and especially the latter rely heavilyontheir3-drops. That's why I'd never get below 22 Mountains.
But the curve on your sligh list looks perfectly low, you'll be fine with the 19.
I would agree on goblins =)
The lists I play frequently against never got below 22 lands (including mana denial and fetches) even with AEther Vials.
I don't tend to play aggro as much nowadays, I prefer stuff like reanimator or Sneak>Emrakul which runs low lands counts (at least when I have proper mana fixing available) =x
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It might be good to know that you might be running too many non basics that Glacial Fortress wouldn't be as good. Might want to try adding in Hallowed Fountain to increase Plains and Island count.
I don't agree with the lands part in the post above. 19 lands are way too few, even for a deck with a flat mana curve. Especially in red aggro builds that play a lot of creatures (RDW, Sligh, Goblins) you wanna make sure you can drop a land until turn 3 to keep the threats coming.
Also Teetering Peaks is a great card in this deck if you don't play it too often. It gives a small boost without having to cast a spell and produces red mana. There's good reason you saw it in most red Standard builds during its time.
I found it to be sufficient actually. I never needed many lands when I was playing Sligh (had more when I was running Goyf Sligh in the past, due to fetches and duals). After about 4 lands, usually any more land that is not a threat is a dead draw.
During my time in Standard (in Odyssey), Barbarian Ring was favored for not coming into play tapped and to be able to deal 2 points of damage directly (getting threshold wasn't hard).
Teetering Peaks would be good in a very limited card pool but the casual card pool actually includes all magic cards, there's quite a few more better options. Also, peaks gives a +2 point to a creature, which can be blocked. It is a bad draw on T1 and 2, not a really good one on T3 either. Possibly playable on turn 4-5 (assuming your hand is empty), to push for a few more points of damage via Blistering Firecat/Ball Lightning.
FYI, maybe perhaps I would show you my lists (might have some errors, RDW was back during 2005 and the sligh I played it a couple of years back for fun):
For Sligh, the average land count would be around 19 lands (all basics usually), if there's non basics maybe wasteland(not very budget)/Strip Mine or barbarian ring as BlackVise has suggested. Teetering Peaks is bad because it comes into play tapped and reduces the number of threats you can play.
I am not scared of grave-hate in the hands of an unexperienced opponent. And when facing merfolk or reanimator the games get very skill intensive and even my opponents enjoyed it.
and dredge is skill intensive, cause any unexperienced dredge player against anyone who knows what he's doing will lose to hate/counters/wasteland.
I mean, I can understand printing one or two hate cards every so often, but why have they printed so many of them so quickly? I don't think any other deck (well, maybe Reanimator due to splash damage) has as many hate cards.
I posted a thread about my bro wanting to build a creatureless tempo deck, but after discussing with my tourney playgroup, tempo is more about playstyle than the deck itself.
Then, my bro dropped another criteria, in addition to it being creatureless. The wincon is comboish via damage. After thinking though, I thought maybe the pyromancer ascension I played in T2 could work.
Basically, this deck runs control elements to slow down your opponents to activate Ascension asap and go off.
Rules here simple.
Each card must ideally be budget, so no Force of Will and like. Waste, SDT, Fetch and Duals are all from my existing collection (from my Sneaky Show) so excluded from budget.
All cards must be Legacy Legal.
I'm considering to replace Incinerate for a finisher such as Fireblast or even a black splash for Cruel Ultimatum (I have a singleton Badlands if necessary).
Also what do you folks think about Fire/Ice? Might look good here.
I've never ever played with 4 Ponders in Reanimator, although I did play with 2 when Misstep was legal, and for about a month after its banning.
Basically my list was the same as it is currently, but the Misdirection and maindeck Flusterstorm were Ponders.
Frankly, I was finding Ponder underwhelming.
In game 1, I found to my expense that you can't afford to keep a hand that relies on Ponder to hit one of the combo pieces. Ponder was only good when I was using it to find disruption or a redundant combo piece to beat my opponent's disruption - so I might as well play more disruption instead.
In sideboard games, I was siding out Ponder in virtually every game, so I decided to just take it out for more maindeck disruption.
It's possible that I'm mulliganing a bit more often without Ponder than previously (though I haven't played enough games to be sure), but I'm also able to go off on turn 2/3 more often, thanks to the additional maindeck disruption.
In game 1 you really want a free counter to protect your turn 2/3 combo, and Misdirection is essentially your fifth copy of Force of Will.
Obviously, the cost is not negligible and I found that even 2 Misdirections is often too many. But playing 1 gives you a slight edge over decks that play only Force, and is very good against discard spells (and decent against removal).
Overall, I'm pretty happy with it.
Agreed. Ponder does feel underwhelming and even annoying during my playtesting. I'll try running more disruption then and see how it works. Thanks~
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Hi Guys, been months since I was both playing Magic and posting here.
My brother started playing Magic again after years and thought he wanted to get into casual magic again.
He's currently thinking about tempo decks, however he's bored of aggro beats as a wincon, no matter how efficient they are, such as Tarmogoyf.
Thus, he suggested a creatureless tempo deck challenge to build (his knowledge of the card pool is much lesser than me thus he challenged me to build one =\)
I'm not too familiar with tempo decks in general so I'm looking for help here =)
Correct me if I'm wrong, from my knowledge of competitive legacy, tempo consist of:
Mana-Efficient Threats
Inexpensive Tricks
Cheap Removal/Bounce
Disruption 2 for 1 for CA
Without creatures, a quick look up of efficient threats would be:
Sorry what I meant was that Ponder is better than Preordain in many Legacy Decks.
My apologies for the confusion.
Cook's a great man, he even got me interested in EDH by displaying a consistent enough storm combo (but it got banned out =((( ).
Yup, current reanimator lists cuts Ponder too because it feels somewhat meh.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Correct. I play Reanimator currently, used to play Doomsday Storm too. For reanimator, unless you mull to 4-5 and still got NOTHING, yes BS on turn 1 or your opponent turn after yours EOT (but more often than not, you're probably hoping that he kept a screwy hand too).
More like to combo off/grab protection pieces before the lock comes down or before he stabilizes (more turns for your opponent allows better sculpting, means a thicker wall of counters and disruptions, not to mention aggro-control decks like merfolks have both counters and a fast clock).
tich, this is one of the best explanations I have seen online for BS, Ponder and Preordain. Great job! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
However, I would like to point out that, for Legacy decks with plentiful of shuffle effects, Ponder is still better as it can dig deeper, for whatever stuff you think you might need. =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Looks something like this (I can't remember the sideboard)
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Soul Warden
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Serra Ascendant
1 Ranger of Eos
2 Martyr of Sands
1 Mother of Runes
1 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Bitterblossom
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Test of Endurance
Might one to check out the Soul Sisters Thread in the Legacy Developing forums, they are the guys working on it. (I ran a mono W one for budget reasons, though probably selling the pieces for my budget enchantress).
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I would agree on goblins =)
The lists I play frequently against never got below 22 lands (including mana denial and fetches) even with AEther Vials.
I don't tend to play aggro as much nowadays, I prefer stuff like reanimator or Sneak>Emrakul which runs low lands counts (at least when I have proper mana fixing available) =x
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
It might be good to know that you might be running too many non basics that Glacial Fortress wouldn't be as good. Might want to try adding in Hallowed Fountain to increase Plains and Island count.
Agreed that Spreading Seas needs to be dropped and Preordain should either be cut for Ponder or Ponder should be added with Preordain (Brainstorm isn't really good here without shuffle effects). Swords to Plowshares should be added.
Cut Mana Leak for Counterspell. Might be interested in adding Daze/Spell Pierce/Rune Snag.
Wrath of God is actually better than DoJ in casual due to regeneration.
Other options for you to try out include:
Hope it helps~
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Without any, some serious equipment would be Umezawa's Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice and co.
And like others have proposed, Stoneforge Mystic is good, but Quest for the Holy Relic can be used for budget.
Also, why so little removal? How about Path to Exile and Oblivion Ring?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I found it to be sufficient actually. I never needed many lands when I was playing Sligh (had more when I was running Goyf Sligh in the past, due to fetches and duals). After about 4 lands, usually any more land that is not a threat is a dead draw.
During my time in Standard (in Odyssey), Barbarian Ring was favored for not coming into play tapped and to be able to deal 2 points of damage directly (getting threshold wasn't hard).
Teetering Peaks would be good in a very limited card pool but the casual card pool actually includes all magic cards, there's quite a few more better options. Also, peaks gives a +2 point to a creature, which can be blocked. It is a bad draw on T1 and 2, not a really good one on T3 either. Possibly playable on turn 4-5 (assuming your hand is empty), to push for a few more points of damage via Blistering Firecat/Ball Lightning.
FYI, maybe perhaps I would show you my lists (might have some errors, RDW was back during 2005 and the sligh I played it a couple of years back for fun):
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
8 Mountain
// 16 Creatures
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Jackal Pup
4 Seal of Fire
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Lava Dart
4 Pillage
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gamble
1 Shattering Pulse
2 Pulverize
4 Fledgling Dragon
4 Cursed Totem
This had more land due to the mana denial package and a slightly higher curve.
19 Mountain
// 12 Creatures
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Cave-In
2 Browbeat
4 Fireblast
This was the last sligh (non-goyf) list I ran. Cave-In could be swapped for metagame tweaking though. Browbeat is debatable.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
For Sligh, the average land count would be around 19 lands (all basics usually), if there's non basics maybe wasteland(not very budget)/Strip Mine or barbarian ring as BlackVise has suggested. Teetering Peaks is bad because it comes into play tapped and reduces the number of threats you can play.
Slith Firewalker would be great synergy with Sligh (as removal helps him to get thru). Other creatures could be Jackal Pup, Blistering Firecat, Keldon Marauders and Goblin Guide.
Fireball is unnecessary as you don't expect the deck to progress to late game anyway. If you want a finisher, play Fireblast.
Why no Magma Jet? Burn and Sligh lacks card quality.
Browbeat can be considered maybe as a 2 of. Though many people do argue about it.
Hopes it helps! =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I agree =)
I trained my buddy playing dredge for tourneys using reanimator, countering all his discard outlets and dropping Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. After SB comes Echoing Truth and Iona, Shield of Emeria/Blazing Archon
Played dredge for a bit, quite fun truth to be told, and yes is much easier to play than my Doomsday Storm =)
You missed Extirpate =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Why Probe? This list runs many cantrips already no?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I posted a thread about my bro wanting to build a creatureless tempo deck, but after discussing with my tourney playgroup, tempo is more about playstyle than the deck itself.
Then, my bro dropped another criteria, in addition to it being creatureless. The wincon is comboish via damage. After thinking though, I thought maybe the pyromancer ascension I played in T2 could work.
And so here's the list:
4 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter
10 Mountain+Island
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
2 Incinerate
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Rune Snag
3 Sensei Divining Top
4 Echoing Truth
2 Call to Mind
Basically, this deck runs control elements to slow down your opponents to activate Ascension asap and go off.
Rules here simple.
I'm considering to replace Incinerate for a finisher such as Fireblast or even a black splash for Cruel Ultimatum (I have a singleton Badlands if necessary).
Also what do you folks think about Fire/Ice? Might look good here.
Any suggestions? =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Agreed. Ponder does feel underwhelming and even annoying during my playtesting. I'll try running more disruption then and see how it works. Thanks~
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
So wincon via token beats?
EDIT: Btw, what's your list look like? (I'm not familiar with any Dralnu deck)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
My brother started playing Magic again after years and thought he wanted to get into casual magic again.
He's currently thinking about tempo decks, however he's bored of aggro beats as a wincon, no matter how efficient they are, such as Tarmogoyf.
Thus, he suggested a creatureless tempo deck challenge to build (his knowledge of the card pool is much lesser than me thus he challenged me to build one =\)
I'm not too familiar with tempo decks in general so I'm looking for help here =)
Correct me if I'm wrong, from my knowledge of competitive legacy, tempo consist of:
Without creatures, a quick look up of efficient threats would be:
Not sure there's more though.
Limitations here would be budget (ideally a maximum of 200 bucks in total) and all cards must be Legacy Legal. Focus will be mostly based on 1v1.
Any suggestions? =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)