Rhythm of the Wild seems better than Domri, Anarch of Bolas against decks that are significantly slower than whatever "size" (more Aggro or more Midrange) of Gruul deck you are running - even when those decks aren't full-blown Control decks, but very slow Midrange decks (like Sultai Midrange) - this is because giving Haste (or double Riot on creatures with Riot) allows us to catch up in terms of Tempo and/or creature size quite quickly.
Domri, Anarch of Bolas is really great if you're planning to ramp into 5 drops, though, so if your Gruul deck is already planning to go very midrange-y.
In 8 rounds on Bo3 Arena, Domri, Anarch of Bolas has really impressed. It lets you trim specific removal in favor of playing a 3cmc mana dork that anthemns your team and fights.
I made Mythic last night, beating Caleb Durwald for my last two bars. He was on RG Pig. He was slow to the board and I ran him over 2-0.
Nice, good to know and congratz ! Do you mind sharing your deck list ? I tried out a bunch of different versions but I'm still unsure who "small" or how "midrange" I really want to go. Are Llanowar Elves and Pelt Collector needed to get the most out of Domri, Anarch of Bolas ? If so, what are we really "ramping" into - and are we running 5 drops and/or other walkers ?
I was beginning to brew around Evolution Sage when I had initially misread the card as "when it etbs proliferate." I liked the card when I thought of it this way, but needing to hit a land drop to enable it makes it bad in my opinion. That means it becomes a turn-4 essentially play, where you'll end up with an extra mana and nothing to do with it. Then you played a 3/2 on turn 4 that's dependent on other creatures being out that already have counters on them... People can respond to the trigger in order to play a shock/lightning strike before the counter goes on a creature, before it gets out of reach. We're talking about getting 1 or 2 counters at most the turn it comes down. If you're set up well with creatures then play this turn 3 and hope... You're opponent will figure something out to hamper you plans before that land comes down turn 4. A 3/2 on it's own is a bad creature for 3 mana creature in standard, and it can't buff its self at all.
I think the landfall part of this card is too clunky for our deck.
Good news: They actually printed exactly the card you thought you would get in Pollenbright Druid ! And it's even 1 mana cheaper and can provide its own +1/+1 counter in a pinch (and yes, the stats are - obviously - worse because it's 2 mana instead of 3) !
The biggest change is the drop of legion warboss from main. The deck was too overloaded in the 3 slot. Krenko was the better card. This went to 4.
I maxed on the mayhem devil. Thus having 8 sac lords
Mobilized district was disappointing. Really never activated it. Also the activated creature was mediocre. Put blasting zone instead. The extra mana the deck generates can be used to increase its counters. In addition give mass removal, enchantment, planeswalker, artifact removal.
Bontu felt win more in this deck. A lot had to go right to have it be really effective. It was 5 mana. You need creatures out especially a sac lord. It need 2 black mana. Thus it usually was stuck in hand. Or was unimpressive Thus was cut.
On the same token main decked siege gang. When I cut legion warboss. I realized that siege gang was a better token maker. Getting to 3RR was so much easier then3BB. Even when behind siege gang can help stabilize it also has been a great finisher.
Dark dweller really helps smooth draws and puts another sac enabler main deck. Also as a 2/2 for 2 it is passable on curve.
I think the deck struggles in the red deck or decks that can profitability use removal against my low drops. The 2 goblin cratermaker are standins for this matchup.
Blasting zone replace mountain in sideboard
I really like your list. My only idea for a change (I love trying to optimize lists even more than brewing something completely new) would be to put in a 4th Dark-Dweller Oracle. It's an immediate sac outlet for 1 mana per creature, can sac any creature (not just goblins) and is pretty much straight "card draw" in a deck that plays almost exclusively permanents - at least until you hit too many lands.
Fine guys, just crush my dreams I hear you, don't bother with the pump spells.
I do like the looks of Domri, Anarch of Bolas. I feel like he'll be best utilized alongside pelt collector or another 1 drop. Best scenario turn 1 collector into turn 2 Zhuur-taa Goblin as 3/3 into turn 3 Domri, then either fight to truck damage through and prevent a swing back on Domri, or add mana play another pelt collector or shock. Swing in for 7 damage on turn 3.
I think that static +1/+0 alongside our high power creatures will enable our creatures to hit just about any creature late in the game. Even a Gruulspell breaker fights for 5 with domri out, not too bad.
I just realized we can use domri's mana ability to cast Light up the Stage if we can get damage through on combat. Also, between domri, llanowar elves and that new Paradise Druid, we can consider sneaking in a couple of Steel-leaf Champion without having to give up Rekindling Phoenix or causing mana problems. It might be a "4 drop" of sorts, but one that could leave us a red up for shock or light up the stage on turn 4 as well.
I really like some of your ideas - I also tried out "real" Gruul Aggro a while ago on Arena ("real aggro as in running Pelt Collector and Zhur-taa Goblin) and I was thinking a lot about Domri, Anarch of Bolas since he was spoiled.
What I found was that the mana often times gets very awkward, despite having 8 dual lands (the tapped lands aren't good in an aggro deck for obvious reasons).
I think that getting Paradise Druid will really help the deck because it's a great 2-drop alongside Kraul Harpooner that grows Pelt Collector, ramps and mana fixes and can't immediately be killed by spot removal. The only downsides are that we might have "too much" mana - and that Paradise Druid sadly dies to Goblin Chainwhirler.
Angrath, Giant Growth and Samut's Sprint are completely trash cards in Standard. GG hasn't been a viable constructed card in ages, and sprint might be even worse. What you're talking about is a casual deck, not competitive.
I'm coming at this from a bo1 perspective on Arena. You must be able to beat aggro for bo1, and giant growth can be a fine card to do so. It does help against control too, if you know how to wait for the right moment to play a pump spell. I can beat Teferi control in bo1, it's hard, but it does happen. When it happens it's because I could be aggro enough to kill them before they can set up. When I don't kill them, they are often at 1-3 life before they stabilize and come back up. Giant growth would help in these scenarios.
I'm trying to get at the fact that these cards may be good in a more aggro version of the deck. Yes, you would build your deck to be much lower to the ground in order to enable these cards, and you still wouldn't want more than like 4 max. However, I can see a single giant growth being good in just about any version of the deck. We have access to haste/trample/flying creatures... Just make sure you don't get blown out with a removal spell after casting it. Yes, it takes a bit of maneuvering and planning, that's why you limit the number of copies you play so you only see 1 copy a game at most.
I've raced mono-red multiple times with my deck list, it's just that aggro for bo1. Giant growth helps the deck become even faster possibly... I don't think it should just be discounted out of hand because it didn't make deck lists in the past. You can't directly compare cards to past standard environments they were in because we are in a different environment right now (which is still totally theoretical.) Perhaps a better comparison is how long has it been since a combat trick this good has been printed? This is basically the premium green combat trick to which all others are compared. Combat tricks aren't needed that much, but they can find uses as Collision // Colossus has done for us already with this deck.
Cards that are just combat tricks are almost always terrible in Standard because they set you up for getting 2-for-1'ed more often then not. They also require a board presence or they do nothing (unlike a Lightning Strike that you can still send to that Control player's dome or use to kill a Benalish Marshal or Runaway Steam-Kin).
Split cards like Collision // Colossus or Thrash // Threat get around those downsides by giving you 1 side that isn't a combat trick and/or doesn't require you to have a board presence.
In general, if you're worried about Aggro and want to do well in Bo1s I would recommend Shocks and Lightning Strikes over combat tricks because those are always able to remove creatures or burn your opponent.
Just kinda hopping into the discussion, but does Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion merit any amount of consideration? I know he lacks haste and bites it to Lava Coil, both hefty strikes, but on rate alone he is a 5 power trampler for 4cmc. That makes him competitively priced, at least. In the event that he does swing and trample over for a single point of damage, you get the option of pitching irrelevant threats/excess land to, potentially, draw more gas. Breaking the shackles of being chained to the top of our deck is something Gruul desperately needs. I find it even more appealing when paired with Living Twister as you can bounce a land or two to draw additional cards at net neutral mana. Mana that can then be used to fling a fist full of land at the opponent to either close out the game or wreck the opposing board state. I understand that Neheb likely isn't a slam dunk solution to our problems, but it could give us a slightly different angle of attack.
Anyway, I just thought I'd toss that out there since I felt like he deserved to, at least, enter the conversation as a new entry that could have a dynamic effect on the archetype.
I could maybe see Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion as a 1-of sideboard options against Control and very grindy Midrange match-ups (like Sultai Midrange with 4x Hydroid Krasis and 4x Find // Finality). Living Twister seems like a really terrible "trap" card that people will fail to build around. Bouncing your own land isn't relevant without landfall-ish cards to abuse it. And paying 2 mana for 2 damage per pitched land is simply too expensive and therefore inefficient to really do anything.
I'm also curious why you didn't mention God-Eternal Rhonas, the 5-drop I would actually want to test as a 2-of instead of Sarkhan the Masterless or Skarrgan Hellkite / Regisaur Alpha. Rhonas is very hard to - permanently - remove and has an incredibly strong ETB-effect that will most likely lead to a lethal alpha strike or lots of chump blocking by our opponents, provided we have enough board presence.
God-Eternal Rhonas has a variety of issues, mainly, while laddering, I play against a lot of Esper, Reclamation, and the like. A 5 drop that requires you to have a board is wildly irrelevant. 5 drops against combo just aren't relevant at all.
If they target it with a removal spell, it still functionally Teferi tucks, which for a card that doesn't have haste, is as good as a removal spell against Teferis, Searches, etc. While from a certainly perspective, a Teferi tuck isn't that bad, it's still card disadvantage while putting us back on the board state.
I'd imagine that God-Eternal Rhonas is good against exactly Sultai. Even then, it doesn't have evasion, which may be a deal breaker.
_______________________________________________
Despark, Tyrant's Scorn, Ritual of Soot, Kaya's Wrath, Teferi and Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God are going to run this format. We just have to figure out how to line up our threats to get through their defenses. My hunch? We won't be able to lean into the power of Rekindling Phoenix like we have been. This is why I've been suggesting some of the walkers that we have access to. Sarkhan plays well with playing a couple walkers. His static, imo, is largely irrelevant.
You need creatures that attack well on their own if they cost 3 mana.
I'm actually playing against a ton of White Weenie and Mono Blue Tempo in Bo1 Arena - both decks where we can generally keep our creatures on the board and God-Eternal Rhonas coming down will lead to lots of chump blocking by my opponents (which they usually can't recover from, especially since gaining Vigilance gives us some protection from the crack-back).
Rhonas would have to compete in the 5 drop slot. Though him coming in with Domri or Rhythm in play uncountered would make him really tough to take down. Problem is lack of trample.
Lack of trample is certainly the biggest weakness of God-Eternal Rhonas (aside from - obviously - needing a board presence).
However, vigilance + a big pump will usually - at least - lead to your opponent pretty much having to chump-block all of your creatures amd your creatures still being ready to block alongside your death-touching 5/5 "undying" Rhonas. That means you will not only decimate your opponents board, you will also not die to them cracking back with their creatures (unless they have meaningful evasion).
This actually makes God-Eternal Rhonas pretty good in all scenarios where you have a significant board presence when you drop him. If you're up against a Control/Combo player with no creatures, you wouldn't benefit too much from trample anyways - and if you're up against a board of creatures, they'll probably lose most of their board chump-blocking and can't just crack back for the win.
Some interesting lists here. I'm currently playing a lot of Sultai Midrange on Arena (which is basically just Golgari with 4x Hydroid Krasis).
Maybe the Arena meta is completely different from paper Magic - but not running 4x Wildgrowth Walker in the main when already running the usual "explore package" (4x Merfolk Branchwalker + 4x Jadelight Ranger) seems just . . . wrong to me.
This card is very similar to Dromoka's Command. It plays great on the play, allowing your 2 drops to push through damage and function very similar to Fleecemane Lion and co. of the past. So what's the draw back here? It's sorcery speed, meaning that you're getting set up to get blown out. You can't realistically play this card into open mana. We're already tight on removal spells and, in a lot of cases, Lava Coil will be just as good if not better.
At first I was pretty cold on new Domri. Why? Well, I was spoiled with Domri the first time around -- Domri Rade was amazing and was a staple in RG as long as it was in standard. This 3cmc guy though? It just fights, ramps, and pumps. Is that good? I think, in a deck where the pilot is trying to deploy big, fast, and evasive creatures, being able to cut dead removal for cards that fulfill multiple purposes is great. I don't want to run a bunch of bad cards either. I want to be lean and efficient, playing to the board hard and not letting up. Domri lets you do that while having escape valves to creatures that threaten to take over the game. Need to snag that Thief of Sanity? Slam a Domri and go to work. Need to ramp to 4cmc to get out Phoenix? We're served here.
I think Domri is an excellent roleplayer in a RG Aggro deck, maybe just not the staple that Domri Rade was in the past.
This strikes me as a card I would have to play a lot with to figure out if it's good or not.
This card is great against control and, for 3cmc, might be quite an excellent slot for against Grixis and Esper.
Doesn't have evasion. Nope. Maybe if we go big enough with Banefires and other big mana plays.
This card just isn't very good.
Illharg and Neheb -- I'm not linking because theses guys aren't really worth talking about. They die easily and require a whole turn to get going. Illharg requires for you to have fatties in hand while Neheb needs 4cmc up front. There is going to be so much removal flying around that, for as long as we have a big standard, these guys probably won't be that great.
These guys are also not that great. Kiora has some elements of Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch in that you can get some mana back but it's probably not worth it. We don't play that many 4 power creatures.
Samut is double haste. You're paying 4cmc to buy the same thing twice. We can get that already in Rhythm of the Wild.
I actually have high hope for these guys as SB role players. If the format is about protecting walkers, Vraksa could be great. If the format is about going wide and then finding a piece of evasion, Gruul War Chant just might be excellent. They have somewhat redundant abilities, so I doubt that we'll play both in the board at the same time. But I can envision a world in which we play one of these puppies.
Let's talk about removal since it has such a major impact on how we build our decks:
Ok, this is bad news bears for us. Despark is insane against Rekindling Phoenix, our stickiest threat. Tyrant's Scorn is more copies of Cast Down, already a premier revmoal spell against us. Will we be able to survive a format like this? Ok, well I think there are ways to combat things like this. Cards that come to mind are Regisaur Alpha or even something dumb like Tibalt, Rakish Instigator (I told you it was dumb). Better yet, you can slam this familiar guy:
Hell. Yeah.
Make dragons, turn your PWs into dragons, I'm all about this. It plays excellently with RG walkers lower down the curve -- mainly both Domris. Having a few extra walkers handy means that Sarkhan's uptick will have effective haste. Unfortunately, the dragons die to Find // Finality but my suspicion is that Grixis and Esper may make quick work of whatever is left of Sultai.
Thrashing Brontodon is bad but I just got sick of drawing Warbosses against a bunch of Chainwhirlers. We're back on Chaos Bringer since we want walkers that cantrip in the face of spot removal for walkers and we want walkers in play so that when we play Sarkhan we can immediately attack for 4.
Some decent analysis here, but I'm personally pretty cold on Sarkhan the Masterless. 5 CMC and a static ability that barely benefits us (we play between 0-2 actual dragons and if we're the ones getting attacked, we're probably already losing the game) - and putting a single 4/4 into play puts him into Lightning Strike (et. al.) range immediately and he can only put another token into play 2 turns after the first one.
I'm also curious why you didn't mention God-Eternal Rhonas, the 5-drop I would actually want to test as a 2-of instead of Sarkhan the Masterless or Skarrgan Hellkite / Regisaur Alpha. Rhonas is very hard to - permanently - remove and has an incredibly strong ETB-effect that will most likely lead to a lethal alpha strike or lots of chump blocking by our opponents, provided we have enough board presence.
What are the thoughts on playing 1 mana counterspells in the SB to deal with problematic cards, especially RIP.
Apart from Swan Song there is also Spell Pierce and possibly even Stubborn Denial. These cards obviously don't work with Chalice on 1, but the MUs with RIP like UW and Spirits you can argue to board out Chalice anyway.
I think Stubborn Denial is kind of interesting. Early on it's a Force Spike, which is enough for a turn 2 RIP and once you have a creature on the board it simply is a 1 mana Negate.
The problem with this is, that it doesn't allow you to deal with black Leylines.
I have the traditional Living End deck and have been thinking about upgrading to the - imho - (almost) strictly better Izzet version for a while.
The main problem I see with some of those lists: Playing tons of reactive cards in game 1 feels really greedy and can easily "fizzle" (more like: delay) the combo early. Running 3+ Cryptic Commands feels especially greedy to me because - as great as that card is - it can sometimes be waaay to slow, I don't even run 4 in my Jeskai Control deck.
I really love your idea, Alz: Let's stick to the main upside this version has over the traditional build: We can play as many cheap answers (mostly out of the sideboard) as we want ! Swan Song should be an easy 3/4-of, as should Tormod's Crypt !
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Domri, Anarch of Bolas is really great if you're planning to ramp into 5 drops, though, so if your Gruul deck is already planning to go very midrange-y.
Nice, good to know and congratz ! Do you mind sharing your deck list ? I tried out a bunch of different versions but I'm still unsure who "small" or how "midrange" I really want to go. Are Llanowar Elves and Pelt Collector needed to get the most out of Domri, Anarch of Bolas ? If so, what are we really "ramping" into - and are we running 5 drops and/or other walkers ?
Good news: They actually printed exactly the card you thought you would get in Pollenbright Druid ! And it's even 1 mana cheaper and can provide its own +1/+1 counter in a pinch (and yes, the stats are - obviously - worse because it's 2 mana instead of 3) !
I really like your list. My only idea for a change (I love trying to optimize lists even more than brewing something completely new) would be to put in a 4th Dark-Dweller Oracle. It's an immediate sac outlet for 1 mana per creature, can sac any creature (not just goblins) and is pretty much straight "card draw" in a deck that plays almost exclusively permanents - at least until you hit too many lands.
I really like some of your ideas - I also tried out "real" Gruul Aggro a while ago on Arena ("real aggro as in running Pelt Collector and Zhur-taa Goblin) and I was thinking a lot about Domri, Anarch of Bolas since he was spoiled.
What I found was that the mana often times gets very awkward, despite having 8 dual lands (the tapped lands aren't good in an aggro deck for obvious reasons).
I think that getting Paradise Druid will really help the deck because it's a great 2-drop alongside Kraul Harpooner that grows Pelt Collector, ramps and mana fixes and can't immediately be killed by spot removal. The only downsides are that we might have "too much" mana - and that Paradise Druid sadly dies to Goblin Chainwhirler.
Cards that are just combat tricks are almost always terrible in Standard because they set you up for getting 2-for-1'ed more often then not. They also require a board presence or they do nothing (unlike a Lightning Strike that you can still send to that Control player's dome or use to kill a Benalish Marshal or Runaway Steam-Kin).
Split cards like Collision // Colossus or Thrash // Threat get around those downsides by giving you 1 side that isn't a combat trick and/or doesn't require you to have a board presence.
In general, if you're worried about Aggro and want to do well in Bo1s I would recommend Shocks and Lightning Strikes over combat tricks because those are always able to remove creatures or burn your opponent.
I could maybe see Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion as a 1-of sideboard options against Control and very grindy Midrange match-ups (like Sultai Midrange with 4x Hydroid Krasis and 4x Find // Finality). Living Twister seems like a really terrible "trap" card that people will fail to build around. Bouncing your own land isn't relevant without landfall-ish cards to abuse it. And paying 2 mana for 2 damage per pitched land is simply too expensive and therefore inefficient to really do anything.
I'm actually playing against a ton of White Weenie and Mono Blue Tempo in Bo1 Arena - both decks where we can generally keep our creatures on the board and God-Eternal Rhonas coming down will lead to lots of chump blocking by my opponents (which they usually can't recover from, especially since gaining Vigilance gives us some protection from the crack-back).
Lack of trample is certainly the biggest weakness of God-Eternal Rhonas (aside from - obviously - needing a board presence).
However, vigilance + a big pump will usually - at least - lead to your opponent pretty much having to chump-block all of your creatures amd your creatures still being ready to block alongside your death-touching 5/5 "undying" Rhonas. That means you will not only decimate your opponents board, you will also not die to them cracking back with their creatures (unless they have meaningful evasion).
This actually makes God-Eternal Rhonas pretty good in all scenarios where you have a significant board presence when you drop him. If you're up against a Control/Combo player with no creatures, you wouldn't benefit too much from trample anyways - and if you're up against a board of creatures, they'll probably lose most of their board chump-blocking and can't just crack back for the win.
Maybe the Arena meta is completely different from paper Magic - but not running 4x Wildgrowth Walker in the main when already running the usual "explore package" (4x Merfolk Branchwalker + 4x Jadelight Ranger) seems just . . . wrong to me.
Wildgrowth Walker is an absolutely allstar against any aggressive deck, not just RDW ! Even just "evolving" a single Wildgrowth Walker once with a Merfolk Branchwalker can sometimes stonewall White Weenie decks until you drop a Jadelight Ranger for the early knock-out.
Some decent analysis here, but I'm personally pretty cold on Sarkhan the Masterless. 5 CMC and a static ability that barely benefits us (we play between 0-2 actual dragons and if we're the ones getting attacked, we're probably already losing the game) - and putting a single 4/4 into play puts him into Lightning Strike (et. al.) range immediately and he can only put another token into play 2 turns after the first one.
I'm also curious why you didn't mention God-Eternal Rhonas, the 5-drop I would actually want to test as a 2-of instead of Sarkhan the Masterless or Skarrgan Hellkite / Regisaur Alpha. Rhonas is very hard to - permanently - remove and has an incredibly strong ETB-effect that will most likely lead to a lethal alpha strike or lots of chump blocking by our opponents, provided we have enough board presence.
I have the traditional Living End deck and have been thinking about upgrading to the - imho - (almost) strictly better Izzet version for a while.
The main problem I see with some of those lists: Playing tons of reactive cards in game 1 feels really greedy and can easily "fizzle" (more like: delay) the combo early. Running 3+ Cryptic Commands feels especially greedy to me because - as great as that card is - it can sometimes be waaay to slow, I don't even run 4 in my Jeskai Control deck.
I really love your idea, Alz: Let's stick to the main upside this version has over the traditional build: We can play as many cheap answers (mostly out of the sideboard) as we want ! Swan Song should be an easy 3/4-of, as should Tormod's Crypt !