Personally, if I were to splash red it wouldn't be for Boros Charm (not that it's a bad choice,) but it would be for Dynacharge. The card is just plain scary in super-low-cmc weenie aggro, and a Dynacharged alpha strike backed by a Brave the Elements can and will end a game.
Why does it have to be good against aggro? Those lists did exceptional in a field that seems like it was otherwise dominated by other aggro and midrange decks...
3 in the top 4 is exceptional
Are you saying we should move back to Dragon to deal with control? Because I always felt it was too easily dealt with by control decks that weren't strictly UW
What have people been playing as far as mana bases go?
More interested to know raw numbers, but the actual make-up I wouldn't mind knowing either.
I imagine no less than 24 and no more than 26. But my gut feeling is that, tuned properly, 24 can work for us, as with all the various instances of scry we should have a high % of hitting 3 lands by turn 3, and we don't really need to get past 5 lands anyway (I mean, late game Elspeth is 6, and the lists running Aurelia have that.)
We'll agree to disagree on the Shock option though, I really love my Magma Jets as not only am I killing the same creature on Turn 2 more often then not, but I'm potentially digging through the Top 2 to get to my Anger if I don't already have it, or I'm atleast hopefully digging up more early answers, or fixing my mana for the next few turns.
But to play your Magma Jet on turn 2, you either need a basic land (inconsistent based on numbers) or you need to pay 2 life to a shockland (can be the difference between life and death in an aggro matchup.)
I'm not saying Shock is where I want to be, but having the chance to play removal on turn 2 against aggro without taking damage, (or turn 1, perhaps, though probably with damage,) is I think a necessary evil.
I'm glad to see another list with Boros Charm; double striking Desecration Demon, yes please! the indestructible part doesn't hurt either. If only you could target a creature instead of the 4 damage only going to the dome.
If it could also target creatures it would be the most absurd charm ever printed, I think.
But I don't really like lists that aren't playing Boros Charm for the indestructibility. Which I mean, we play creatures, so we can use it. But how necessary that is is another question.
I don't see why Alms Beast is popping up at all, the situations where it isn't bad seem to be the same situations where Desecration Demon is good (which has flying to boot.)
Is it because WB is that much easier than BB to cast turn 4 in our deck? I doubt it.
I continually see lists that play 1 Rakdos Guildgate. Can anyone explain why 1 Guildgate and 1 Plains is better than 1 Temple of Silence and 1 Mountain?
If I had to guess, it is either:
A) Personal preference
B) More untapped W sources on turn 2 to play Chained to the Rocks
How on earth was that defensive? I was asking because you seem to be making statements based on information I assumed I must have missed. So I was merely asking if I overlooked it and where I could find it.
That being said, now is when I get defensive.
You are assuming that BWR Midrange is unpopular based on it's results without a meta game breakdown... which means you have nothing actually backing up the claim that it is an unpopular deck choice. Without a meta game breakdown, coming to the conclusion as to whether a deck is popular or not is simply speculative.
It could be that it is just a bad deck to be playing....
I'm not saying it's unpopular based on its results, but rather its attendance. The deck would seem to be literally unpopular, as few lists were being piloted. Is that because the deck is weak? Maybe. We can't really say for sure, especially not right now.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence, and so on and so forth.
Maybe this was discussed before, but why does noone play thoughtsieze main?
It looks like the only match were you dont want them is RDW, they are really strong agaisnt control and other midrange strategies, specially in the mirror, stripping opposing barons that are hard to deal with.
It's a personal choice/meta call. If you expect to see a lot of aggro, I wouldn't want them game 1 either.
That's only half-true. When you play a tapland and your opponent Thoughtseizes you, takes your Seize and has perfect information of your hand. This is a pretty common situation in 2 colors vs. 3 colors midrange games.
If you think playing a handful of guildgates in your deck that come into play tapped 100% is not going to relevantly affect your game, you're just dead-wrong. Playing something like 3 might be okay, but playing 6-7 is really pushing it. And if you really want to be casting cards like Obzedat, you're going to have to play plenty of duals. Even last season when decks had better mana bases and each land had the option of coming into play untapped, this was very relevant, and it will always be. You can keep denying the problem as much as you want, but it is not going anywhere.
Your argument is all fine and dandy in theory, because yes, any three color deck will eventually have mana issues given enough games. But in practice, Esper is having just as much if not more success as its strictly UW brethren, and is even stabilizing and winning against RDW. The data doesn't lie, the scry lands being a major downgrade from the check lands just isn't impacting slower decks like midrange and control as much, although we will most likely never see something like Naya Blitz of last season again.
On another note, an opponent that Thoughtseizes after you played a scry land turn 1 is the same thing as them doing it on turn 1 on the play, except you had Scry 1 and have a mana base established. Also it's better to Thoughtseize after your opponent has a draw step anyway, as you see more cards without seeing less targets.
7 basics isn't all that impressive in comparison to the 17-18 the two color decks run. Even they have mana issues occasionally, and adding a 3rd color does inevitably imbalance it even further. If you happened to draw 4 out of your 7 basics that's more good luck than consistency. Especially if you are playing cards like Anger of the Gods and Obzedat, Ghost Council in the same deck.
Also cards like Thoughtseize and Chained to the Rock suffer a lot from this deck being incapable of consistently casting them in turn one.
3 color decks are not having relevant consistency issues, otherwise Esper would not be placing as well as it is.
And the beauty with 1 cmc cards like TS and Chained is that we can play them on t2 with a tapped land to avoid paying life for a shock land. And can play 2 of them on turn 2 if we choose to pay the life (or get a basic.)
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Are you saying we should move back to Dragon to deal with control? Because I always felt it was too easily dealt with by control decks that weren't strictly UW
I predict good things for this card. Too bad it won't be Modern legal.
More interested to know raw numbers, but the actual make-up I wouldn't mind knowing either.
I imagine no less than 24 and no more than 26. But my gut feeling is that, tuned properly, 24 can work for us, as with all the various instances of scry we should have a high % of hitting 3 lands by turn 3, and we don't really need to get past 5 lands anyway (I mean, late game Elspeth is 6, and the lists running Aurelia have that.)
But to play your Magma Jet on turn 2, you either need a basic land (inconsistent based on numbers) or you need to pay 2 life to a shockland (can be the difference between life and death in an aggro matchup.)
I'm not saying Shock is where I want to be, but having the chance to play removal on turn 2 against aggro without taking damage, (or turn 1, perhaps, though probably with damage,) is I think a necessary evil.
If it could also target creatures it would be the most absurd charm ever printed, I think.
But I don't really like lists that aren't playing Boros Charm for the indestructibility. Which I mean, we play creatures, so we can use it. But how necessary that is is another question.
Ah, didn't see Kensanity's post. Yeah, that makes sense too.
Is it because WB is that much easier than BB to cast turn 4 in our deck? I doubt it.
If I had to guess, it is either:
A) Personal preference
B) More untapped W sources on turn 2 to play Chained to the Rocks
I'm not saying it's unpopular based on its results, but rather its attendance. The deck would seem to be literally unpopular, as few lists were being piloted. Is that because the deck is weak? Maybe. We can't really say for sure, especially not right now.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence, and so on and so forth.
Meta breakdown? I was just looking over the previous events. There wasn't exactly a lot of Dega entries was there?
I don't know why you're always so defensive when I agree with a lot of what you post anyway
It's a personal choice/meta call. If you expect to see a lot of aggro, I wouldn't want them game 1 either.
I think, anyway.
Your argument is all fine and dandy in theory, because yes, any three color deck will eventually have mana issues given enough games. But in practice, Esper is having just as much if not more success as its strictly UW brethren, and is even stabilizing and winning against RDW. The data doesn't lie, the scry lands being a major downgrade from the check lands just isn't impacting slower decks like midrange and control as much, although we will most likely never see something like Naya Blitz of last season again.
On another note, an opponent that Thoughtseizes after you played a scry land turn 1 is the same thing as them doing it on turn 1 on the play, except you had Scry 1 and have a mana base established. Also it's better to Thoughtseize after your opponent has a draw step anyway, as you see more cards without seeing less targets.
3 color decks are not having relevant consistency issues, otherwise Esper would not be placing as well as it is.
And the beauty with 1 cmc cards like TS and Chained is that we can play them on t2 with a tapped land to avoid paying life for a shock land. And can play 2 of them on turn 2 if we choose to pay the life (or get a basic.)