As someone who played UW Control for most of Theros Standard and played vs 8 thoughtseize effects post board let me say that thoughtseize is a fine card. It is close to the definition of a fair card (loxodon smiter is the actual definition of a fair card). It can only one for one. It can never gain card advantage. It doesn't protect against the top of the deck and it is the worst card to draw when you are top decking.
Yes it make mulligan decisions hard but that doesn't make it broken or ban worthy. Saying that thoughtsieze forces you not to run a synergistic deck is silly when Mone Blue Devotion has been one of the top decks for all of theros standard and is a deck that relies on the payoff of master of waves or thassa.
The only problem this card has is polukranos is at least 2/1 bigger then it and the difference is likley larger then that. (For those wondering 5/5 + monstrous for 1) This card is good but it is likely that polukranos is just better
on the contrary most of the time they wont block because you can pay two mana, this matches up quite well vs courser, worse vs brimaz though, but not paying mana for the first x turns is pretty much the default mode.
How is it worse against Brimaz? They block and you get to trade with Brimaz, they don't and you play something else or get rid of Brimaz some other way.
I don't see why people are really talking about him as a bad aggro card, he's clearly a control card. You're only supposed to play him if you'll have mana open.
If you want him to attack early on, he'll probably get through. If you want him to block, he'll survive. Wait around long enough and you can wrath and regenerate him, and then attack for 8 or 10 next turn.
^This^ is actually a very important train of thought that people aren't considering, especially with Stubborn Refusal existing as a card since you can pump on their turn to block and can probably either trade or out-right kill what every they may be attacking and also have Ferocious active for whatever they may try to play Main2 or even pump in Main1 to counter and potentially prevent an attack as well.
Even though Stubborn Refusal is supposed to be Temur aligned, with something like this it looks and works better in Sultai, or anything GU that decides to run Urborg to allow activating this.
Its worse vs brimaz because they trade. note that he didn't say that its bad vs brimaz just that it matches up worse vs brimaz (trade) then vs courser (kill)
But when you've played with the good stuff, aren't you just a little disappointed by the bad stuff?
That said, for all anybody here knows, KTK Limited could turn out to be greatest draft format ever conceived by WotC. Constructed turds have very little bearing on that.
So why can't they bump all the rares down to uncommons, then? If it would make a good Constructed, then it would make a good Limited. Lingering Souls was an uncommon, and it was really good in both formats.
The last time a set was made for Limited, we got Coldsnap. The last time a set was made for Constructed, we got Modern Masters.
How was Modern Masters made for Constructed? The entire set was designed specifically to be drafted there were no constructed concerns because the set was entirely reprints. Card Rarity only matters in limited Elspeth wouldn't be a worse card if it was a common and runeclaw bears wouldn't be a better card if it was a mythic.
Why are you buying a box to get singles. Have you never bought magic product before. If you want singles buy singles if you want to draft a box or enjoy cracking packs then buy a box
I'm not sure if you are trolling or not, but most of the above posts are exactly right...the rare slots are full of cards that should be uncommon, this *****ty cat is one of them. out of the cards you listed only rattle claw mystic should be in the uncommon slot, maybe Mantis rider, hard to say I don't play limited, but there are plenty of other examples of rares in this set that should be uncommon. That being said, the flavor of this set is awesome, I'm just a little underwhelmed at the shifts in rarity so far, but i'll wait until the whole set is released to pass judgement.
See, I don't get you. You say that the rare slots are full of cards that should be uncommon, and yet out of all the cards I listed you say only one should be uncommon. I don't follow. What's the harm in putting efficient removal like Crackling Doom and big-impact creatures like Avalanche Tusker and Ankle Shanker at lower rarities? Blightning and Bloodbraid Elf were uncommons too.
Tusker and doom could maybe be uncommon and still lead to a good format but ankle shanker could not be uncommon that card is absurd in limited when removal is at a premium
So Sorin's plus one says that until your next turn creatures you control get +1/+0 and lifelink. Does this effect creatures that enter after you activate sorin's ability?
While Stoneforge Mystic was kinda hard to predict, what with no way to know that the Swords or Batterskull would be printed, I sincerely doubt anybody would seriously say the Mind Sculptor was bad or unplayable, no matter what Jund was doing back then. That would have been stupid, huim being the BEST planeswalker to have been printed.
The Desecration Demon is the same, just in a smaller power level, and even more predictable. The only thing holding back the Demon back when it came out was Lingering Souls and the prevalence of other tokens, simple as that. Lingering Souls was going to rotate with Innistrad, thus leaving a 4cmc 6/6 flyer without that much of a drawback. It was also played during that standard (albeit only the final montsh), accompanied by Thragtusk, Mutilate, and another "unplayable crap", Disciple of Bolas.
Cards do >NOT< exist only in one standard format, so dismissing everything as bad "because the previous block has X" is wrong.
That said, I don't think this coan make a splash, unless there is some serious lack of wraths and spot removal. Hero's Downfall makes that last condition quite unlikely, tho.
Cards dont only exist in the format they are printed in but that is the only format you can use to evaluate them. You cannot make an argument that X card will be good because in 9 months Card Y will rotate and in those 9 months no similar card will be printed. When JtMS was printed it was fine but not insane. very few people in the original thread said jace was horrible most of the nay sayers said that alot of the time against jund it would end up being a 4 mana brainstorm and that may or may not be worth playing. many people said it would be great in block which it was since there was no BBE in block.
Even ignoring the whether you can make an argument on whether a card will be good in nine months it is impossible to use cards like JtMS and Stoneforge as a reason for other cards to be good unless the card are mechanically similar. JtMS being good after people said it would be lack luster is not a reason to agree with the argument that another card will be good even though people said it would be lackluster the argument doesn't follow and you have created a Non sequitur.
Arguments for card's playability is based on the present and on your expectations of future metagames.
Each one's ability to predict future meta is very decisive in card's evaluation even through that ability is a hard one. However normally a average mtg meta should draw a good enough picture to see if a card will be good or not.
Example: The average standard meta doesn't have a several 1/1 tokens being generated all the time. If you knew that you would predict Desecration Demon would actually become a role player once lingering souls reduced it's meta presence, which happened by the end of ISD-RTR era, before Theros kicks in. I know people who made hundreds of dollar with DD trades in the last year, which was a pretty sweet given how easy it was.
It is not possible for anyone who does not work at R&D to have a reasonable prediction of what standard will look like in 9 months. There is a large difference in looking at what standard is now and what it will likely look like in KTK since we know 4 of the 5 sets that will be legal but to say people who said DD would be good were saying so because thye could predict RTR/Theros standard based of less then 1 of the 5 sets that would be legal is an absurd claim.
Furthermore DD wasn't just bad because of lingering souls it was bad because there were better 4 drops. Oliva Voldaren, Huntmaster of the fells, and falkenrath aristocrat were just better 4 drops. DD saw alot of play this standard because there was a big payoff for being mono colored and even if you wanted to splash for a second color you didn't have a good option for another 4 drop.
DD was an dominating 4 drop by the end of Innistrand-RTR standard as BG Rock became the top deck. All it took for it to shine was WB decks being hated out.
Also the prediction was not based on the knowledge of Theros block. as you said yourself, there were a lot of great cmc 4 contenders in its colors, so what are the chances of cards like these being printed ? Very low. It is obvious that under normal standard power level and circumstances DD is one of the bests cmc 4 creatures you can get. The only way for you to miss that is if you haven't played before Innistrad block.
Some cards requires very specific metas to shine, some cards requires very specific meta to NOT shine. DD is probably in the middle, reason why a lot of people suspected it was going to be a good card at some point of it's t2 lifetime.
It's a bit like Hornet Queen. Trades for 5 creatures, efficient against spot removal, 6 evasive power ON GREEN, plays well with devotion... Even at seven mana, it's quite a package. It's fare to assume that card will be good at some point of it's lifetime.
So DD was never a "dominating 4 drop" not was BG midrange ever "The top deck" it was a fine 4 drop in a solid deck but certainly not dominating.
Secondly saying the only way to think that a 4 mana 6/6 flyer wouldn't be powerful is by not playing prior to innistrad block is a silly thing to say when you consider that Abyssal Persecutor was printed in worldwake and saw very little play (with arguably a less severe drawback). most signs when Demon was printed pointed to it being sub par which it was for most of rtr standard.
Anyway this thread isn't about how good demon is and that wasn't the point of my original post. The point is that saying that speculations on card A were wrong is not a reason to believe that speculations on Card B are also wrong unless the cards are extremely similar and played in similar formats.
The card is seening play today? yeah you are right people that called the demon to be trash were right because the demon never saw play in its time in standard and neither was a staple, now it is leaving standard and no one have never removed hin from the bulk rares box....
I smell butthurt....
What a card is doing i this format is irrelevent to the conversation that took place when the card was spoiled. cards exist within their formats. People always bring up stoneforge mystic and how people said it would be bad in standard. Well look at the cards that stoneforge mystic is known for getting. Swords batterskull and jitte. If you look at the standard stoneforge mystic was printed into none of these cards existed. Even in eternal formats im not sure if mystic would he played without batterskull.
The same can be said about JtMS. He was printed in a standard where jund was king the best card was BBE which jace is very bad against. Jace didnt become a powerhouse until zendikar mirrodin standard.
If desecration demon had been printed people had said it was bad and then it was played in the standard it was printed in then it would be correct to call out people who said it was bad.
While Stoneforge Mystic was kinda hard to predict, what with no way to know that the Swords or Batterskull would be printed, I sincerely doubt anybody would seriously say the Mind Sculptor was bad or unplayable, no matter what Jund was doing back then. That would have been stupid, huim being the BEST planeswalker to have been printed.
The Desecration Demon is the same, just in a smaller power level, and even more predictable. The only thing holding back the Demon back when it came out was Lingering Souls and the prevalence of other tokens, simple as that. Lingering Souls was going to rotate with Innistrad, thus leaving a 4cmc 6/6 flyer without that much of a drawback. It was also played during that standard (albeit only the final montsh), accompanied by Thragtusk, Mutilate, and another "unplayable crap", Disciple of Bolas.
Cards do >NOT< exist only in one standard format, so dismissing everything as bad "because the previous block has X" is wrong.
That said, I don't think this coan make a splash, unless there is some serious lack of wraths and spot removal. Hero's Downfall makes that last condition quite unlikely, tho.
Cards dont only exist in the format they are printed in but that is the only format you can use to evaluate them. You cannot make an argument that X card will be good because in 9 months Card Y will rotate and in those 9 months no similar card will be printed. When JtMS was printed it was fine but not insane. very few people in the original thread said jace was horrible most of the nay sayers said that alot of the time against jund it would end up being a 4 mana brainstorm and that may or may not be worth playing. many people said it would be great in block which it was since there was no BBE in block.
Even ignoring the whether you can make an argument on whether a card will be good in nine months it is impossible to use cards like JtMS and Stoneforge as a reason for other cards to be good unless the card are mechanically similar. JtMS being good after people said it would be lack luster is not a reason to agree with the argument that another card will be good even though people said it would be lackluster the argument doesn't follow and you have created a Non sequitur.
Arguments for card's playability is based on the present and on your expectations of future metagames.
Each one's ability to predict future meta is very decisive in card's evaluation even through that ability is a hard one. However normally a average mtg meta should draw a good enough picture to see if a card will be good or not.
Example: The average standard meta doesn't have a several 1/1 tokens being generated all the time. If you knew that you would predict Desecration Demon would actually become a role player once lingering souls reduced it's meta presence, which happened by the end of ISD-RTR era, before Theros kicks in. I know people who made hundreds of dollar with DD trades in the last year, which was a pretty sweet given how easy it was.
It is not possible for anyone who does not work at R&D to have a reasonable prediction of what standard will look like in 9 months. There is a large difference in looking at what standard is now and what it will likely look like in KTK since we know 4 of the 5 sets that will be legal but to say people who said DD would be good were saying so because thye could predict RTR/Theros standard based of less then 1 of the 5 sets that would be legal is an absurd claim.
Furthermore DD wasn't just bad because of lingering souls it was bad because there were better 4 drops. Oliva Voldaren, Huntmaster of the fells, and falkenrath aristocrat were just better 4 drops. DD saw alot of play this standard because there was a big payoff for being mono colored and even if you wanted to splash for a second color you didn't have a good option for another 4 drop.
Love that most of the people saying this is bad without knowing the upcomming new meta are the same who said Desecration Demon was trash and that would see no competitive play .... Yeah they were right in both cases
Yes i will remenber you that you can t say a card is trash before knowing the formart... If you want to say the card looks bad or that you can t farthorn any usages its ok but saying it is unplayable is stupid...
Yeah man all those people were so wrong about desecration demon it saw so much play in RTR Innistrad standard. Oh wait it saw almost no play in that format.
The card is seening play today? yeah you are right people that called the demon to be trash were right because the demon never saw play in its time in standard and neither was a staple, now it is leaving standard and no one have never removed hin from the bulk rares box....
I smell butthurt....
What a card is doing i this format is irrelevent to the conversation that took place when the card was spoiled. cards exist within their formats. People always bring up stoneforge mystic and how people said it would be bad in standard. Well look at the cards that stoneforge mystic is known for getting. Swords batterskull and jitte. If you look at the standard stoneforge mystic was printed into none of these cards existed. Even in eternal formats im not sure if mystic would he played without batterskull.
The same can be said about JtMS. He was printed in a standard where jund was king the best card was BBE which jace is very bad against. Jace didnt become a powerhouse until zendikar mirrodin standard.
If desecration demon had been printed people had said it was bad and then it was played in the standard it was printed in then it would be correct to call out people who said it was bad.
While Stoneforge Mystic was kinda hard to predict, what with no way to know that the Swords or Batterskull would be printed, I sincerely doubt anybody would seriously say the Mind Sculptor was bad or unplayable, no matter what Jund was doing back then. That would have been stupid, huim being the BEST planeswalker to have been printed.
The Desecration Demon is the same, just in a smaller power level, and even more predictable. The only thing holding back the Demon back when it came out was Lingering Souls and the prevalence of other tokens, simple as that. Lingering Souls was going to rotate with Innistrad, thus leaving a 4cmc 6/6 flyer without that much of a drawback. It was also played during that standard (albeit only the final montsh), accompanied by Thragtusk, Mutilate, and another "unplayable crap", Disciple of Bolas.
Cards do >NOT< exist only in one standard format, so dismissing everything as bad "because the previous block has X" is wrong.
That said, I don't think this coan make a splash, unless there is some serious lack of wraths and spot removal. Hero's Downfall makes that last condition quite unlikely, tho.
Cards dont only exist in the format they are printed in but that is the only format you can use to evaluate them. You cannot make an argument that X card will be good because in 9 months Card Y will rotate and in those 9 months no similar card will be printed. When JtMS was printed it was fine but not insane. very few people in the original thread said jace was horrible most of the nay sayers said that alot of the time against jund it would end up being a 4 mana brainstorm and that may or may not be worth playing. many people said it would be great in block which it was since there was no BBE in block.
Even ignoring the whether you can make an argument on whether a card will be good in nine months it is impossible to use cards like JtMS and Stoneforge as a reason for other cards to be good unless the card are mechanically similar. JtMS being good after people said it would be lack luster is not a reason to agree with the argument that another card will be good even though people said it would be lackluster the argument doesn't follow and you have created a Non sequitur.
Love that most of the people saying this is bad without knowing the upcomming new meta are the same who said Desecration Demon was trash and that would see no competitive play .... Yeah they were right in both cases
Yes i will remenber you that you can t say a card is trash before knowing the formart... If you want to say the card looks bad or that you can t farthorn any usages its ok but saying it is unplayable is stupid...
Yeah man all those people were so wrong about desecration demon it saw so much play in RTR Innistrad standard. Oh wait it saw almost no play in that format.
The card is seening play today? yeah you are right people that called the demon to be trash were right because the demon never saw play in its time in standard and neither was a staple, now it is leaving standard and no one have never removed hin from the bulk rares box....
I smell butthurt....
What a card is doing i this format is irrelevent to the conversation that took place when the card was spoiled. cards exist within their formats. People always bring up stoneforge mystic and how people said it would be bad in standard. Well look at the cards that stoneforge mystic is known for getting. Swords batterskull and jitte. If you look at the standard stoneforge mystic was printed into none of these cards existed. Even in eternal formats im not sure if mystic would he played without batterskull.
The same can be said about JtMS. He was printed in a standard where jund was king the best card was BBE which jace is very bad against. Jace didnt become a powerhouse until zendikar mirrodin standard.
If desecration demon had been printed people had said it was bad and then it was played in the standard it was printed in then it would be correct to call out people who said it was bad.
Love that most of the people saying this is bad without knowing the upcomming new meta are the same who said Desecration Demon was trash and that would see no competitive play .... Yeah they were right in both cases
Yes i will remenber you that you can t say a card is trash before knowing the formart... If you want to say the card looks bad or that you can t farthorn any usages its ok but saying it is unplayable is stupid...
Yeah man all those people were so wrong about desecration demon it saw so much play in RTR Innistrad standard. Oh wait it saw almost no play in that format.
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Yes it make mulligan decisions hard but that doesn't make it broken or ban worthy. Saying that thoughtsieze forces you not to run a synergistic deck is silly when Mone Blue Devotion has been one of the top decks for all of theros standard and is a deck that relies on the payoff of master of waves or thassa.
Its worse vs brimaz because they trade. note that he didn't say that its bad vs brimaz just that it matches up worse vs brimaz (trade) then vs courser (kill)
How was Modern Masters made for Constructed? The entire set was designed specifically to be drafted there were no constructed concerns because the set was entirely reprints. Card Rarity only matters in limited Elspeth wouldn't be a worse card if it was a common and runeclaw bears wouldn't be a better card if it was a mythic.
Tusker and doom could maybe be uncommon and still lead to a good format but ankle shanker could not be uncommon that card is absurd in limited when removal is at a premium
So DD was never a "dominating 4 drop" not was BG midrange ever "The top deck" it was a fine 4 drop in a solid deck but certainly not dominating.
Secondly saying the only way to think that a 4 mana 6/6 flyer wouldn't be powerful is by not playing prior to innistrad block is a silly thing to say when you consider that Abyssal Persecutor was printed in worldwake and saw very little play (with arguably a less severe drawback). most signs when Demon was printed pointed to it being sub par which it was for most of rtr standard.
Anyway this thread isn't about how good demon is and that wasn't the point of my original post. The point is that saying that speculations on card A were wrong is not a reason to believe that speculations on Card B are also wrong unless the cards are extremely similar and played in similar formats.
It is not possible for anyone who does not work at R&D to have a reasonable prediction of what standard will look like in 9 months. There is a large difference in looking at what standard is now and what it will likely look like in KTK since we know 4 of the 5 sets that will be legal but to say people who said DD would be good were saying so because thye could predict RTR/Theros standard based of less then 1 of the 5 sets that would be legal is an absurd claim.
Furthermore DD wasn't just bad because of lingering souls it was bad because there were better 4 drops. Oliva Voldaren, Huntmaster of the fells, and falkenrath aristocrat were just better 4 drops. DD saw alot of play this standard because there was a big payoff for being mono colored and even if you wanted to splash for a second color you didn't have a good option for another 4 drop.
Cards dont only exist in the format they are printed in but that is the only format you can use to evaluate them. You cannot make an argument that X card will be good because in 9 months Card Y will rotate and in those 9 months no similar card will be printed. When JtMS was printed it was fine but not insane. very few people in the original thread said jace was horrible most of the nay sayers said that alot of the time against jund it would end up being a 4 mana brainstorm and that may or may not be worth playing. many people said it would be great in block which it was since there was no BBE in block.
Even ignoring the whether you can make an argument on whether a card will be good in nine months it is impossible to use cards like JtMS and Stoneforge as a reason for other cards to be good unless the card are mechanically similar. JtMS being good after people said it would be lack luster is not a reason to agree with the argument that another card will be good even though people said it would be lackluster the argument doesn't follow and you have created a Non sequitur.
What a card is doing i this format is irrelevent to the conversation that took place when the card was spoiled. cards exist within their formats. People always bring up stoneforge mystic and how people said it would be bad in standard. Well look at the cards that stoneforge mystic is known for getting. Swords batterskull and jitte. If you look at the standard stoneforge mystic was printed into none of these cards existed. Even in eternal formats im not sure if mystic would he played without batterskull.
The same can be said about JtMS. He was printed in a standard where jund was king the best card was BBE which jace is very bad against. Jace didnt become a powerhouse until zendikar mirrodin standard.
If desecration demon had been printed people had said it was bad and then it was played in the standard it was printed in then it would be correct to call out people who said it was bad.
Yeah man all those people were so wrong about desecration demon it saw so much play in RTR Innistrad standard. Oh wait it saw almost no play in that format.