Spark Trooper is in both the C and D Tracks, so it is possible to get 2 copies of him in one box. I'm not sure if it's statistically more likely, but if I was to wager a guess, I would say that this happens more often than duplicates of other rares.
Alright, I've updated the original post with all the updated Tracks. These should work for most boxes. For the time being, I'm going to take a step away. I'll update the front page as needed, but we have generally solved the rare map. Thank you to everyone that was involved in the process. Feel free to continue posting your boxes, as every bit of data is useful. Maybe someone will figure out a case map or foil rare map from it. I suppose I'll try to open another thread when Dragon's Maze releases, assuming it's not against the rules to do so.
Have you found any inconsistencies with the Tracks I posted earlier? They should all be almost entirely correct from what I looked at. Stolen Identity is indeed the rare that appears once on Track A and 3 times on Track B. Spark Trooper is on Track C and D twice, it was one of the hardest to pin down.
I don't think figuring out the Tracks is the difficult part. The thing about this set which will make mapping difficult and possibly very impractical is the number of different sequences in use and that they don't seem to always repeat when they end. I have a feeling WotC is close to making mapping pointless to do from a value standpoint with the number of packs you'll have to burn to figure out where you are in the box.
So far I haven't found any problems, I just want to double check and make sure. My Track C and your Track C seemed to differ a bit. I still haven't figured that out. Right now I'm looking at Ross' data. Seems he found a Kermit the Frog. Who said box mappers don't have a sense of humor.
Anyways, the sequences are going to be a pain. Maybe if we get enough sequences we can figure out the sequencing algorithm? It's probably unlikely, but it's something to think about.
Alright, time to take a break for a bit. The newest version of the Tracks are posted. Track C is still a mess. The others should be safe enough to use. Someone do me a favor and keep everyone on topic while I'm gone. Have fun, guys.
I understand we can all weight in on this, but let's try and nip this conversation in the bud. I get the impression the mods closed that thread for a reason. I'm trying to avoid that in this thread. We need the flow of box data to continue mapping.
If those people think this is the only possible motive for box mapping, then they are hardly looking at things objectively. Your summary of the thread is also woefully lacking objectivity.
But this thread is not the place for the discussion. The thread will probably be unlocked eventually, and that is the place for it. I'm just calling attention to the discussion because the people here could provide uniquely valuable insight. The timing was unfortunate because the thread was temporarily locked soon after I made the post. However, that is not an excuse to derail this thread further and use it to continue that discussion here, regardless of which side you take, if any.
Once the other thread opens up we can continue there. If someone just can't wait, instead of further discussing it here, ask one of the mods to unlock the other thread.
Exactly, let's stay to task, guys. If you have more boxes, please consider posting them instead of waiting for the maps. I can't tell you how valuable a box is with the guild icons listed.
Thank you for posting the link to that thread... I always wondered why MTGS continues to allow threads that openly promote gaining the system. I'll admit even I have been tempted to use threads like these to take advantage, but my conscience has kept me from doing so.
Predictably the thread SynthesisB linked to came down to those who map boxes (and by extension profit from it) defending the practice for any and every reason...."Jesus told me box mapping was okay!"
Those who are looking at the practice objectively can't help but see it as a way to defraud people. If you purchase a box, cherry pick the best cards and then resell the remaining packs, you have unfairly gained the system. It doesn't matter that what's left is random...it is random jank.
I understand that somewhere this information is going to be posted anyway, but MTGS does not need to encourage this. Threads on box mapping should be limited to making people aware that this is a practice and how to protect themselves from it, as opposed to providing a guide to scamming as this has become.
Add me to the growing number of people who oppose these threads appearing on MTGS and would ask that the moderators review this subject.
I understand there very strong feelings against Box Mapping, and that thread is an excellent place to voice such opinions (When it reopens). Until then, I am going to keep to task and solve the map. I'll leave the ethics for others to discuss.
Also, I added a fourth track. I'm starting to think that they are randomly creating sequences rather than there being a finite number. I'll keep adding them as I find them.
Excellent. I'm currently running through ~ 20 boxes posted here that I believe to have very solid data. So I should have something to compare with yours pretty soon.
Awesome, whenever you finish your list, go ahead and compare it to the latest set of tracks. I usually keep them as close to my current version as possible. I'm not sure if it helps or not, but it looks like Stolen Identity can be found once on Track A and 3 times on Track B. Additionally, Spark Trooper may be on both tracks C and D. I'm not 100% on that last one. I'm still testing it the idea.
I can't wait to see it all done since I might pick up another box or 2 of GTC and get a few good cards for my decks and then draft the rest with friends for lols. We have a few standard players, but mainly drafters and edh players
It's getting close. I might go pick up a box tonight to test out the tracks. Unfortunately, there are multiple sequences this time around. So it might take a few more packs than normal to figure it out.
I believe you might not be able to see it because there is a post and time limit set on Community Issues. I'm not sure what the specifics are, but I think after 2 weeks and/or x amount of posts you will able to view the discussion (provided it gets unlocked).
Fair enough. I'll try and keep an eye out for it. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Maybe if we can get some of the box mapping enthusiasts posting it won't appear to be so ethically one sided.
Also, Good news everyone! I am finished with Track B. I just need to check it against another list or two before I give it the 95% seal of approval.
I am doing Common Print Run, I think i can finish it with my ~45 Packs. With 30 Packs i was at 12 Gaps, i need to close about 8 of them. Uncommon is more difficult.
To helps anyone who wants to do it:
First 2-4 Cards are always Monocolored cards.
Next 2-4 (most times 2) are Multicolored commons +Mugging&Grisly Spectacle. (Maybe 1 or 2 other cards, but i dont think so. But I could not distinct those 2 cards to middle or bottom)
Last 2-6 Commons are the Rest, including all Guildgates, Prophetic Prism.
With the Information about the Middle Cards you can easily Map it.
It's good that someone is looking into the common data. I've always been curious how Wizards distributes the commons for drafting purposes.
In regards to the ethics issue, I kind of got the impression that this might be a vocal minority situation. There was a guy who was rather anti box mapping in a thread called Box Mapping: Ross Edwards in general. It could have been the same guy. Regardless, hopefully once it's open again we can have a civil discussion on the issue.
Hey guys. Sorry to disrupt your thread, but there is a conversation about box mapping going on in CI right now that I thought some of you might find important. Some of you may be aware of it already, to you I apologize again for disrupting your thread.
Apparently there is a possibility that box mapping may not be allowed on MTGS sometime in the future mainly because mapping could potentially be used to scam people. I'm sure that your opinions on the subject would be valuable to the discussion, whatever they may be. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9731340#post9731340
I can't seem to access this thread. I'm not sure why. In any case, if you can access it, go there and post your opinion. If they're considering banning the practice, I can only imagine it's a bit one sided. It is without a doubt that some people use the maps for less than ethical means. However, there are several individuals who practice box mapping as enthusiests, box opening rituals, or just as a hobby within a hobby. It would be a shame to not be able to discuss this topic because of what someone might do with the information, especially when there are individuals creating private maps without or knowledge every day.
If the owners/mods of the board think it should be against the rules, it's their right to do so. Until then, let's at least try to get some representation and civil discussion on the topic. If you are posting here, post in the other thread. Let's at least demonstrate that this isn't a one sided ethical issue.
Yep. Looks like they might make posting of tracks/maps forbidden in the next rules update. We might have to gather elsewhere for DGM, unless WoTC just makes it unsolvable and saves us the trouble.
It was certainly never my intention to anger the mods/owners of the board. I would be willing to bet Wizards makes some major changes before the next set, regardless. It really wasn't until RTR was cracked that they changed their manufacturing algorithm. I have no doubt they are aware this thread exists and monitor it. This being said, it really only takes 20-30 boxes to get a good map. I am sure that larger companies like SCG have people dedicated to this and even come up with case maps for foil rare/mythic rares.
I post this information in hopes that it dissuades the common myth that boxes are no longer mappable. It is possible with enough data and a well designed computer program. When it comes time to dig in your wallet for packs, it's important to be wary of what you're buying. And if you're using this information in some way to cheat others, maybe it's time to take a long hard look at yourself. Is that extra $20-40 really worth taking advantage of someone else over? It's hard enough to play Magic in a society that still thinks of us as WoW players or some other kind of nerd. Do we really need to take advantage of our own kind?
Alright, I'll leave ethics for others to discuss. Makes me feel too much like a hippie. I'll finish the Tracks and wash my hands of this.
There has been talk of people wanting to come into this thread and post fake data because they disagree with what you do.
If a box so happens to defy the correlation between 50 others, it might be smart to remove that box from your research.
I'd also check users recent posts to see if they express hate towards the practice.
Will contribute if my pre-order ever ships.
This is unfortunate, but I don't think it will really affect much. I'm sitting here comparing my list to mtggo's as we speak, and I'm almost finished with the Tracks. I've seen a lot of boxes over the last few days, and unless they look spot on, I just discard them. I'm trying to stay away from the ethical aspects of Box Mapping. My job is to finish the map and distribute it to everyone. What someone chooses to do after that is up to his/her conscious.
Thanks for the warning, though. I was aware there was some ethics thread on this, but I can't seem to see it.
Hey guys, I ended up having to work today, so finishing the tracks might have to wait until tomorrow. I’m going to respond to some posts.
@pawel_dom, Glad to be of service. Hopefully I will be finished with the tracks by then so you will be able to properly map them.
@Darth Veggie: I am solving these by hand with an excel sheet. I used the RTR sequence and the assumption that all the mythic rares were in track A to map a few boxes. If the barcode numbers were in order I assumed that row shifts had been handled and they were safe to match with the sequence. I then tossed them in tracks that I have slowly grown with more boxes. When mtggo posted the second sequence, it opened up a lot more boxes for deciphering. I usually pick out boxes that are convenient/easy. I haven’t gone through any without the bar codes or guilds provided because it basically takes too much time to do by eye. Thanks again for your contributions. I’ll watch the video later on. I’m hoping for another musical interlude.
I am currently working on the assumption that all the boxes come from the same source/manufacturing algorithm. As it stands, I’ve been able to map boxes regardless of nationality.]
@Vinzito: It’s taken some time, but it’s worth it. Do me a favor and double check my final track list against your program’s. I’ll sign off on them at that point.
@mtggo: There is definitely a third track, and possibly more. I’ll keep going through boxes until I can accurately map the majority of them. I’ll double check my lists against yours and update the front page accordingly. It’ll be interesting to see how the multiple sequences influence things. Ultimately, this will result in having to open more packs to figure out what sequence you’re on.
@hsieh: Kudos for knowing that dark orchid is a thing.
@Azhura: It is probably better for the coders to have the card’s number, but I personally need the card’s name to map them by hand. I color code the tracks and then check the sequence. If I put them in order by barcode number I don’t even bother to check the sequence anymore.
@oddmonk: I’m all for spreading the love. You help me by posting box data. I help you by compiling it and keeping info up to date. Everyone wins.
@BorosReckoner: I’m also planning on picking up Vinzito’s app once it hits the apple store. After all this mapping, I think I’ll let the computer do the rest of the work for me.
@Ross Edwards: Hey, Ross. Thanks for contributing, and furthermore for making Box Mapping a thing. If it wasn’t for your book and bringing mapping to the mainstream (if you can call the MTG community that) this thread probably wouldn’t exist. We owe quite a bit to you.
Macius, if you could record the barcode number or guild on the front of each pack associated with the rare from that pack, it would really help me out. I'm almost done with the Tracks and a case with barcode numbers would be super helpful in finishing them. Regardless, thanks for your contribution.
Alright, the Tracks have been updated again. You might be able to start using some of them to map, if you don't mind the risk.
So far I haven't found any problems, I just want to double check and make sure. My Track C and your Track C seemed to differ a bit. I still haven't figured that out. Right now I'm looking at Ross' data. Seems he found a Kermit the Frog. Who said box mappers don't have a sense of humor.
Anyways, the sequences are going to be a pain. Maybe if we get enough sequences we can figure out the sequencing algorithm? It's probably unlikely, but it's something to think about.
Alright, time to take a break for a bit. The newest version of the Tracks are posted. Track C is still a mess. The others should be safe enough to use. Someone do me a favor and keep everyone on topic while I'm gone. Have fun, guys.
Exactly, let's stay to task, guys. If you have more boxes, please consider posting them instead of waiting for the maps. I can't tell you how valuable a box is with the guild icons listed.
I understand there very strong feelings against Box Mapping, and that thread is an excellent place to voice such opinions (When it reopens). Until then, I am going to keep to task and solve the map. I'll leave the ethics for others to discuss.
Also, I added a fourth track. I'm starting to think that they are randomly creating sequences rather than there being a finite number. I'll keep adding them as I find them.
Awesome, whenever you finish your list, go ahead and compare it to the latest set of tracks. I usually keep them as close to my current version as possible. I'm not sure if it helps or not, but it looks like Stolen Identity can be found once on Track A and 3 times on Track B. Additionally, Spark Trooper may be on both tracks C and D. I'm not 100% on that last one. I'm still testing it the idea.
It's getting close. I might go pick up a box tonight to test out the tracks. Unfortunately, there are multiple sequences this time around. So it might take a few more packs than normal to figure it out.
Fair enough. I'll try and keep an eye out for it. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Maybe if we can get some of the box mapping enthusiasts posting it won't appear to be so ethically one sided.
Also, Good news everyone! I am finished with Track B. I just need to check it against another list or two before I give it the 95% seal of approval.
It's good that someone is looking into the common data. I've always been curious how Wizards distributes the commons for drafting purposes.
In regards to the ethics issue, I kind of got the impression that this might be a vocal minority situation. There was a guy who was rather anti box mapping in a thread called Box Mapping: Ross Edwards in general. It could have been the same guy. Regardless, hopefully once it's open again we can have a civil discussion on the issue.
I can't seem to access this thread. I'm not sure why. In any case, if you can access it, go there and post your opinion. If they're considering banning the practice, I can only imagine it's a bit one sided. It is without a doubt that some people use the maps for less than ethical means. However, there are several individuals who practice box mapping as enthusiests, box opening rituals, or just as a hobby within a hobby. It would be a shame to not be able to discuss this topic because of what someone might do with the information, especially when there are individuals creating private maps without or knowledge every day.
If the owners/mods of the board think it should be against the rules, it's their right to do so. Until then, let's at least try to get some representation and civil discussion on the topic. If you are posting here, post in the other thread. Let's at least demonstrate that this isn't a one sided ethical issue.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9731340#post9731340
It was certainly never my intention to anger the mods/owners of the board. I would be willing to bet Wizards makes some major changes before the next set, regardless. It really wasn't until RTR was cracked that they changed their manufacturing algorithm. I have no doubt they are aware this thread exists and monitor it. This being said, it really only takes 20-30 boxes to get a good map. I am sure that larger companies like SCG have people dedicated to this and even come up with case maps for foil rare/mythic rares.
I post this information in hopes that it dissuades the common myth that boxes are no longer mappable. It is possible with enough data and a well designed computer program. When it comes time to dig in your wallet for packs, it's important to be wary of what you're buying. And if you're using this information in some way to cheat others, maybe it's time to take a long hard look at yourself. Is that extra $20-40 really worth taking advantage of someone else over? It's hard enough to play Magic in a society that still thinks of us as WoW players or some other kind of nerd. Do we really need to take advantage of our own kind?
Alright, I'll leave ethics for others to discuss. Makes me feel too much like a hippie. I'll finish the Tracks and wash my hands of this.
This is unfortunate, but I don't think it will really affect much. I'm sitting here comparing my list to mtggo's as we speak, and I'm almost finished with the Tracks. I've seen a lot of boxes over the last few days, and unless they look spot on, I just discard them. I'm trying to stay away from the ethical aspects of Box Mapping. My job is to finish the map and distribute it to everyone. What someone chooses to do after that is up to his/her conscious.
Thanks for the warning, though. I was aware there was some ethics thread on this, but I can't seem to see it.
@pawel_dom, Glad to be of service. Hopefully I will be finished with the tracks by then so you will be able to properly map them.
@Darth Veggie: I am solving these by hand with an excel sheet. I used the RTR sequence and the assumption that all the mythic rares were in track A to map a few boxes. If the barcode numbers were in order I assumed that row shifts had been handled and they were safe to match with the sequence. I then tossed them in tracks that I have slowly grown with more boxes. When mtggo posted the second sequence, it opened up a lot more boxes for deciphering. I usually pick out boxes that are convenient/easy. I haven’t gone through any without the bar codes or guilds provided because it basically takes too much time to do by eye. Thanks again for your contributions. I’ll watch the video later on. I’m hoping for another musical interlude.
I am currently working on the assumption that all the boxes come from the same source/manufacturing algorithm. As it stands, I’ve been able to map boxes regardless of nationality.]
@Vinzito: It’s taken some time, but it’s worth it. Do me a favor and double check my final track list against your program’s. I’ll sign off on them at that point.
@mtggo: There is definitely a third track, and possibly more. I’ll keep going through boxes until I can accurately map the majority of them. I’ll double check my lists against yours and update the front page accordingly. It’ll be interesting to see how the multiple sequences influence things. Ultimately, this will result in having to open more packs to figure out what sequence you’re on.
@hsieh: Kudos for knowing that dark orchid is a thing.
@Azhura: It is probably better for the coders to have the card’s number, but I personally need the card’s name to map them by hand. I color code the tracks and then check the sequence. If I put them in order by barcode number I don’t even bother to check the sequence anymore.
@oddmonk: I’m all for spreading the love. You help me by posting box data. I help you by compiling it and keeping info up to date. Everyone wins.
@BorosReckoner: I’m also planning on picking up Vinzito’s app once it hits the apple store. After all this mapping, I think I’ll let the computer do the rest of the work for me.
@Ross Edwards: Hey, Ross. Thanks for contributing, and furthermore for making Box Mapping a thing. If it wasn’t for your book and bringing mapping to the mainstream (if you can call the MTG community that) this thread probably wouldn’t exist. We owe quite a bit to you.
Macius, if you could record the barcode number or guild on the front of each pack associated with the rare from that pack, it would really help me out. I'm almost done with the Tracks and a case with barcode numbers would be super helpful in finishing them. Regardless, thanks for your contribution.
Alright, the Tracks have been updated again. You might be able to start using some of them to map, if you don't mind the risk.