Good summary. Also "morality" is just a fuzzy concept the way most people present it. It implies that good actions and bad actions must be externally validated in some way. Things clear up a lot when you ask "good for what?" What are good ways to behave when our behavior affects others?
Once you start thinking of the result we care about it, the result we'd like to achieve for how society operates, it becomes pretty clear why a god isn't necessary to determine that murder is bad. Murdering other people for no reason, or just for kicks, has some pretty obvious negative consequences for the people affected.
Where do governments come from? Everywhere in the world started with anarchy, with no governments around. People then gathered power and declared themselves kings, or any other form of government you dislike. Obviously it becomes rather hard to just "compete" with these existing powerhouses that you think are abusing their power, or else you wouldn't be on here complaining about it.
Your system obviously doesn't work. It doesn't function the way you say it does. We have several thousand years of human history as proof.
Governments are not some magical curse cast by a witch that can be broken by blog posts. It's just people in power forcing other people to do what they want. If I and a group of people in an anarchist society decided to pool our money to pay for a private security force, then decided we would force you to pay for it as well and would send our private security force after you if you didn't... That's police. That's taxes. What you gonna do about it?
Your kneejerk reaction is to say, "Well I'll make my security force and it'll be so much better and bigger and cooler than yours." Okay then, do it. Do it right now, in the real world. What's stopping you?
The whole world started with absolute freedom and without any governments buddy. Where did they come from? Clearly absolute freedom DOES produce abusive power structures despite what you claim. So how did that happen?
Rich Guy: "I'm a rich guy with a gigantic private security force and I've conquered or purchased huge amounts of land."
Libertarian: "No problem."
Rich Guy: "I'm also going to label myself a King."
Libertarian: "No! Now you're suddenly a government and that's bad!"
Life without the hope of salvation or something more is a sad existence and ultimately meaningless. We exist only to repeat the cycle of "life" as our fathers, and their fathers. For what? Life needs salvation, a hope for a better tomorrow, a better future for ourselves and those around us. Otherwise, we all might as well be Nihilist and disregard moral laws and the value of human life.
This is just a bargain sale of unrelated arguments. Several of them are actually outright contradictory. Mortal lives gain value when there is no promise of an infinite afterlife, this is why you have apologists arguing that it doesn't matter that god lets babies die because they're going to be happy in heaven.
This is the kind of absurdity that comes with people starting with fears and flawed premises. Just a collection of unrelated attempts at rationalization. Do you enjoy living at all? Do you enjoy warm sunshine or a tasty meal? Do you enjoy friends, family, playing MTG? Do you find your life preferable to an endless, dreamless sleep? If so your life absotootly is worth living, heaven or not. And if the only reason you don't murder babies is because you're scared god will be mean to you later, you're a much worse person than I think you are. But you can still be afraid of life in prison I suppose, if you really are a closet serial killer waiting to snap.
I won't get this experience if I'm dead (unless perhaps I'm sent to the shadow realm).
The Shadow Realm is just 4Kids censoring "death". Even then, it's depicted as a place of eternal suffering -- essentially Hell. I don't think you'd get to play card games there.
The closest thing in the original manga was the World of Darkness, which is described as a "void of eternal darkness", although one character got to escape in much the same fashion as Daxos managed to get out of Theros' Underworld.
1) I know this.
2) I'm baffled you chose to nitpick this.
3) Some classical interpretations of eternal suffering indicate that you do little *but* play card games there. Heck, some communities banned MTG as satanic.
How could one possibly feel anything at all for an illusory figure.
Ask the people who get upset when fictional characters on TV shows die. It's pretty well established that it's possible to care about fictional characters. That's how basically all fiction works in the first place.
Living life in a sense becomes a waste of time, since everything is imaginary then any sort of achievement you would have done is null and void since you technically did not "do" anything.
I like playing card games. I get an experience of joy from playing card games. I like this experience. I won't get this experience if I'm dead (unless perhaps I'm sent to the shadow realm). Doesn't seem like a waste to me. Extrapolate this point to all other enjoyable experiences in life. I enjoy the experience of a card game despite it being a completely artificial construct. I don't need to really kill a dragon to enjoy playing a card game, and even if all life is a simulation it's a much more convincing one than MTG.
Why stall the inevitable? I mean, if life is about preventing suffering as much as possible then wouldn't death be the best way of doing that? It seems to me a puzzling aspect of life, that it continues to propagate despite the fact that it will end soon is rather confounding.
That's like asking, "Why eat a cake when it's fresh when it's just going to go stale eventually?"
No it isn't. I have heard that argument time and again but it doesn't apply to this question.
Yes it is. You're asking, "Why bother taking advantage of something now if it's just going to go away later?"
The fact it's going to go away later is the reason you should take advantage of it now. If you think non-existence is preferable to existence, that's a different debate. The fact that life has an expiration date itself is not a reason to end it, it's a reason to take advantage before the expiration date comes due.
Why stall the inevitable? I mean, if life is about preventing suffering as much as possible then wouldn't death be the best way of doing that? It seems to me a puzzling aspect of life, that it continues to propagate despite the fact that it will end soon is rather confounding.
That's like asking, "Why eat a cake when it's fresh when it's just going to go stale eventually?"
Not saying there'll be no laws but there will not be a coercive monopoly on violence. Disputes would be resolved through common law.
You're not answering the big point, you're just speculating wildly (and more than a little incoherently). I've demonstrated that anarchy produces governments consistently. If you believe governments are bad, then your beloved anarchy does indeed produce bad end results. Arguing that it won't is like staring at a waterfall and saying, "Water isn't affected by gravity."
You are insisting that humans will act in ways that we know they never have. You sir are ignoring reality.
Every society in the world started in anarchy. Every single one became a government. That's why we have governments controlling the world and running everywhere.
*People choose to create governments of their own will*. You can establish a starting circumstance, but anarchy by definition refuses to enforce laws. People given perfect freedom will choose to form an organized structure, either for defense or for power or both. That *always* happens, throughout all of human history across the entire world. You can claim it won't happen, but you're denying the evidence of the entire world - which always show governments arising in every society that starts in anarchy.
If by "square 1" you mean that your argument is dismantled and that you need to start again from a stronger foundation, I agree. Otherwise you'll need some sort of coherent response to the issue I raise.
@Kahedron, make a contract with water supplier, or get a well built.
I'll ask again, because you didn't answer me: @MTGTCG Do you have any response to my post? Here it is again for reference:
Your central error is assuming that "governments" are some mystical non-human-produced force. Rich dudes amassing power and conquering people is how you get kings in the first place, which is a system of government. We started with anarchy everywhere, and now there are governments basically everywhere. You suggest that people will come together in organized resistance against people who are abusing their powers. You're correct, that's what governments are. That's what a police force is.
Clearly every group of people starts in anarchy and eventually results in governments forming. If you think this is a bad thing, then you have to admit anarchies DO tend towards bad things. You're caught in a contradiction.
2. Who wants to subscribe to a rights enforcement agency that supports bad people? The answer is bad people. There are more good people than bad people, so good REAs beat bad REAs. It's not that hard...
3. You would betray the cartel secretly.
Your central error is assuming that "governments" are some mystical non-human-produced force. Rich dudes amassing power and conquering people is how you get kings in the first place, which is a system of government. We started with anarchy everywhere, and now there are governments basically everywhere. You suggest that people will come together in organized resistance against people who are abusing their powers. You're correct, that's what governments are. That's what a police force is.
Clearly every group of people starts in anarchy and eventually results in governments forming. If you think this is a bad thing, then you have to admit anarchies DO tend towards bad things. You're caught in a contradiction.
Once you start thinking of the result we care about it, the result we'd like to achieve for how society operates, it becomes pretty clear why a god isn't necessary to determine that murder is bad. Murdering other people for no reason, or just for kicks, has some pretty obvious negative consequences for the people affected.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Where do governments come from? Everywhere in the world started with anarchy, with no governments around. People then gathered power and declared themselves kings, or any other form of government you dislike. Obviously it becomes rather hard to just "compete" with these existing powerhouses that you think are abusing their power, or else you wouldn't be on here complaining about it.
Your system obviously doesn't work. It doesn't function the way you say it does. We have several thousand years of human history as proof.
Governments are not some magical curse cast by a witch that can be broken by blog posts. It's just people in power forcing other people to do what they want. If I and a group of people in an anarchist society decided to pool our money to pay for a private security force, then decided we would force you to pay for it as well and would send our private security force after you if you didn't... That's police. That's taxes. What you gonna do about it?
Your kneejerk reaction is to say, "Well I'll make my security force and it'll be so much better and bigger and cooler than yours." Okay then, do it. Do it right now, in the real world. What's stopping you?
The whole world started with absolute freedom and without any governments buddy. Where did they come from? Clearly absolute freedom DOES produce abusive power structures despite what you claim. So how did that happen?
Rich Guy: "I'm a rich guy with a gigantic private security force and I've conquered or purchased huge amounts of land."
Libertarian: "No problem."
Rich Guy: "I'm also going to label myself a King."
Libertarian: "No! Now you're suddenly a government and that's bad!"
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
This is just a bargain sale of unrelated arguments. Several of them are actually outright contradictory. Mortal lives gain value when there is no promise of an infinite afterlife, this is why you have apologists arguing that it doesn't matter that god lets babies die because they're going to be happy in heaven.
This is the kind of absurdity that comes with people starting with fears and flawed premises. Just a collection of unrelated attempts at rationalization. Do you enjoy living at all? Do you enjoy warm sunshine or a tasty meal? Do you enjoy friends, family, playing MTG? Do you find your life preferable to an endless, dreamless sleep? If so your life absotootly is worth living, heaven or not. And if the only reason you don't murder babies is because you're scared god will be mean to you later, you're a much worse person than I think you are. But you can still be afraid of life in prison I suppose, if you really are a closet serial killer waiting to snap.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
1) I know this.
2) I'm baffled you chose to nitpick this.
3) Some classical interpretations of eternal suffering indicate that you do little *but* play card games there. Heck, some communities banned MTG as satanic.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Ask the people who get upset when fictional characters on TV shows die. It's pretty well established that it's possible to care about fictional characters. That's how basically all fiction works in the first place.
I like playing card games. I get an experience of joy from playing card games. I like this experience. I won't get this experience if I'm dead (unless perhaps I'm sent to the shadow realm). Doesn't seem like a waste to me. Extrapolate this point to all other enjoyable experiences in life. I enjoy the experience of a card game despite it being a completely artificial construct. I don't need to really kill a dragon to enjoy playing a card game, and even if all life is a simulation it's a much more convincing one than MTG.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Yes it is. You're asking, "Why bother taking advantage of something now if it's just going to go away later?"
The fact it's going to go away later is the reason you should take advantage of it now. If you think non-existence is preferable to existence, that's a different debate. The fact that life has an expiration date itself is not a reason to end it, it's a reason to take advantage before the expiration date comes due.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
That's like asking, "Why eat a cake when it's fresh when it's just going to go stale eventually?"
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
You're not answering the big point, you're just speculating wildly (and more than a little incoherently). I've demonstrated that anarchy produces governments consistently. If you believe governments are bad, then your beloved anarchy does indeed produce bad end results. Arguing that it won't is like staring at a waterfall and saying, "Water isn't affected by gravity."
You are insisting that humans will act in ways that we know they never have. You sir are ignoring reality.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
*People choose to create governments of their own will*. You can establish a starting circumstance, but anarchy by definition refuses to enforce laws. People given perfect freedom will choose to form an organized structure, either for defense or for power or both. That *always* happens, throughout all of human history across the entire world. You can claim it won't happen, but you're denying the evidence of the entire world - which always show governments arising in every society that starts in anarchy.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
If by "square 1" you mean that your argument is dismantled and that you need to start again from a stronger foundation, I agree. Otherwise you'll need some sort of coherent response to the issue I raise.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
I'll ask again, because you didn't answer me: @MTGTCG Do you have any response to my post? Here it is again for reference:
Your central error is assuming that "governments" are some mystical non-human-produced force. Rich dudes amassing power and conquering people is how you get kings in the first place, which is a system of government. We started with anarchy everywhere, and now there are governments basically everywhere. You suggest that people will come together in organized resistance against people who are abusing their powers. You're correct, that's what governments are. That's what a police force is.
Clearly every group of people starts in anarchy and eventually results in governments forming. If you think this is a bad thing, then you have to admit anarchies DO tend towards bad things. You're caught in a contradiction.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Your central error is assuming that "governments" are some mystical non-human-produced force. Rich dudes amassing power and conquering people is how you get kings in the first place, which is a system of government. We started with anarchy everywhere, and now there are governments basically everywhere. You suggest that people will come together in organized resistance against people who are abusing their powers. You're correct, that's what governments are. That's what a police force is.
Clearly every group of people starts in anarchy and eventually results in governments forming. If you think this is a bad thing, then you have to admit anarchies DO tend towards bad things. You're caught in a contradiction.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane