I've searched the forums, and it appears this wasn't asked (unless I used the wrong set of keywords).
I'm pretty sure it did come up at some time, but maybe the search function still needs tweaking.
Anyway, my question: suppose a planeswalker has a minus loyalty ability that turns them into a creature (that's not a planeswalker), like so:
Sarkhan, the Drunk
-2: Until end of turn, Sarkhan, the Drunk becomes a legendary 4/4 red Dragon creature with flying, indestructible, and haste. (He doesn’t lose loyalty while he’s not a planeswalker.)
Now, I assume that if Sarkhan the Drunk activates this ability and hits 0 loyalty as a result, he immediately dies because state-based actions apply before the ability resolves and he stops being a planeswalker. Is this correct?
If he loses loyalty counters after the ability resolves and he becomes a creature (i.e. via Medicine Runner), he gets to stay on the battlefield until end of turn when he reverts back into a planeswalker, correct?
Ah, but see, the ability treats the counters as if they were token permanents, and thus they gain all the properties of permanents. Just add a rule that says when you remove a countertoken from a permanent, it counts as the countertoken being exiled.
Things don't work like that. You can't just say "Yeah the card says its a permanent so it is." The "Golden Rule" isn't that powerful. You're getting into Un- land when you do that. The difference between your card and Yet Another AEther Vortex is that cards in your library are actually considered game objects.
I suppose so. Like I said, this would probably need a rule all to itself that explicitly allow counters to be tokens.
When Ghave uses his ability to remove a counter, it is also treated as a creature leaving the battlefield, but NOT as a creature going to the graveyard. So Extractor Demon would trigger, but not Deathgreeter.
But where are they removed to? To "leave the battlefield" means it goes from the battlefield to another zone. If it just stops existing it didn't move to another zone, therefore it didn't "leave."
When Ghave himself is destroyed, his Plants go with him to the graveyard before disappearing, so Deathgreeter gets triggered six times. But if Ghave is exiled/bounced, the counters are simply removed and never go to the graveyard, so only Extractor Demon triggers.
Do they, though? When a permanent with counters (besides Skullbriar) moves to another zone, the counters don't move with it. They're not even "removed." They simply cease to exist.
Ah, but see, the ability treats the counters as if they were token permanents, and thus they gain all the properties of permanents. Just add a rule that says when you remove a countertoken from a permanent, it counts as the countertoken being exiled.
And Skullbriar proves counters do actually move with the permanent they are on as they change zones. So a countertoken would move to the graveyard, like a counter, and as a token would trigger any dying abilities.
I forgot to add that (while the ability is active) when a -1/-1 counter and a +1/+1 counter end up on the same permanent, when they cancel each other out it counts as exiling those countertokens.
Yes, it is an absolute mess in game, but it's fun to think up crazy things. And you're right, board complexity would indeed be an issue. But notice that it reads "nontoken permanents" without defining an owner, meaning you'll be getting tons of Saprolings as well (if your opponent chooses to pay cumulative upkeep, that is)
Yeah, what exactly happens with Planeswalkers? If I use a loyalty counter to block, and the creature is attacking the planeswalker, does the creature die and the planeswalker lose 1 loyalty?
Yes, this means all planewalkers come with their own little troop of Plant blockers. When you choose a loyalty counter/Plant to block, it stays on the planeswalker until the countertoken dies and moves to the graveyard, thus the planeswalker loses a loyalty counter. That means you shouldn't try to block with a loyal counter/Plant if the planeswalker only has one left.
Basically, it means that any counter that ends up on a nontoken permanent becomes a 0/1 Plant creature that is also a token. Each counter remains on its permanent and retains its counter qualities (a +1/+1 counter, for example, will continue to buff whatever creature it is on) while also being a creature token (and thus be affected by Illness in the Ranks).
These "tokencounters" can be used to attack or block. If destroyed, they are removed from the permanent they are on. So if I Deathmark a Plant token/counter on Ghave, it removed from Ghave and into the Graveyard before vanishing. End result? Ghave loses a counter.
When Ghave enters the battlefield, he enters with five +1/+1 counters, which enter the battlefield as Plant tokens as well. So Ghave would trigger any "Enters the battlefield" triggers a total of six times; one for Ghave and one for each token/counter. So Pandemonium for example would trigger a total of six times.
When Ghave uses his ability to remove a counter, it is also treated as a creature leaving the battlefield, but NOT as a creature going to the graveyard. So Extractor Demon would trigger, but not Deathgreeter.
When Ghave himself is destroyed, his Plants go with him to the graveyard before disappearing, so Deathgreeter gets triggered six times. But if Ghave is exiled/bounced, the counters are simply removed and never go to the graveyard, so only Extractor Demon triggers.
The fun part is with Persist/Undying creatures. You can reuse their ability as long as you get rid of their counter, and the easiest way to do that is with something like Bloodthrone Vampire or Nantuko Husk.
With proper cards you can have lots of interesting combos. Have Puppeteer Clique and Bloodthrone Vampire out while Uvil Nepenthes Clique out. Feed the Puppeteers to the vampire, then when they persist back in feed the -1/-1 counter (that is also a lovely 0/1 Plant token) to the vampire. End result? Arbitrarily large vampire plus you've now emptied your opponent's graveyard of creatures and they're all hasted up and ready to attack.
Many persist creatures have an ETB effect, so use whichever effect you want. Want to draw your library? River Kelpie. Want to destroy every single noncreature permanent? Woodfall Ultimus!
Ruinedwing Dragon
4{R}{R}
Creature - Dragon
7/4 Wingrot makes dragons easier to track down, but harder to take down.
---
Sand Flounder
1{R}
Creature - Fish
2/1
Plainswalk Do not make the mistake of assuming there is nowhere to hide in the desert; things buried in the sand will soon prove you wrong.
---
Roosting Kathari
1{B}{R}
Creature - Bird Warrior
2/1
Flying
{B}{R}: Roosting Kathari loses flying and becomes 4/4 and colorless until end of turn.
---
Satyr Messmates
3{R}
Creature - Satyr
3/2
When Satyr Messmates enter the battlefield, gain control of target enchantment until end of turn.
Sprite Scouting Party
3{U}{U}
Creature - Faerie Scout
3/3
Flying
Whenever Sprite Scouting Party or another Scout enters the battlefield under your control, you may draw a card, then discard a card.
---
Kissing Bug
2{B}
Creature - Insect
2/1
When Kissing Bug enters the battlefield, destroy target token creature.
---
Mudflats Fiddler
2{U}
Creature - Crab
0/5
{B}: Mudflats Fiddler gets +1/-1 until end of turn.
---
Sumo Merfolk
1{U}
Creature - Merfolk
1/5
Cumulative upkeep-Put the top card of your library into the graveyard.
Sumo Merfolk get +0/+1 for each age counter on it.
---
Merfolk Phalanx
3{U}{U}
Creature - Merfolk Soldier
4/5
Cumulative upkeep-{1}
Merfolk Phalanx has hexproof as long it has two or more counters on it.
---
Gliding Skitter
2{R}
Creature - Lizard
3/1
Whenever Gliding Skitter attacks, it gains flying until end of turn
---
Encephalopathy Quetzalcoatlus
3{B}
Creature - Zombie Drake
3/3
Flying
Encephalopathy Quetzalcoatlus enters the battlefield tapped. Maddened and dazed, it flew through the dimensional rift, its brain pitted with kuru.
---
Morgue Flitter
2{U}
Creature - Faerie Scout
2/1
Flying
Morbid — When Morgue Flitter enters the battlefield, if a creature died this turn, draw a card.
Once, I hoarded these designs to myself, hoping to one day have them printed in actual reality. But the whimsy of fantasy gives to way the sobering influence of maturity, and the fact is I'll never be a part of Wizard's Design/Development team. However, perhaps one day these ideas will inspire a designer who will be.
Anyway, these are stuff I've dreamed about and hoarded throughout the years:
First of all, the COMMANDER!
Uvil Nepenthes Clique {U}{B}{G}{G}
Legendary Creature - Plant Faerie
4/4
Flying
Nontoken permanents have "Cumulative upkeep-Have an opponent put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield."
All counters on nontoken permanents are 0/1 green Plant creature tokens that are still counters and are are owned and controlled by the controller of the permanent that they are on.
Yeah. Believe me, it took a long time to make this thing work, and this is the best way (to avoid "counter token on counter token" and ownership issues. If this thing ever sees print, it'll probably need a rules update all to itself
----
Support:
Thrullstitcher 2{U}
Creature - Cephalid
2/3
Cumulative upkeep-mana]{1}, Exile a card from your graveyard.
When Thrullstitcher's cumulative upkeep is paid, put a 1/1 black Thrull creature token with flying onto the battlefield for each {U} or {B} spent this way.
---
Cephalid Balloonist 1{U}
Creature - Cephalid Scout
2/1
Flying
Cumulative upkeep-{U} or {2}
When Cephalid Balloonist dies, if it has two or more age counters on it, draw a card.
---
Dream-Eater Cephalid 1{U}
Creature - Cephalid
1/3
You may pay {0} rather than pay the cumulative upkeep cost for permanents you control.
{U}: Dream-Eater Cephalid gains protection from permanents with counters on them until end of turn.
---
Yeah, that last one one has been done to death. Anyway, since cephalids are now defunct it would be nice to explore them a bit more in supplementary products.
---
Limited Fodder:
Psycho Warp {U}
Instant
Choose one-Target creature gets -3/-0 until end of turn; or switch target creature's power and toughness until end of turn.
Choose both if you cast another black spell this turn.
Crackshelled Crab
3{U}
Creature - Crab
4/6
Crackshelled Crab enters the battlefield with two -1/-1 counters on it.
----
Smog Scream
{U}{B}
Intant
Target creature gets +3/-3 until end of turn.
Target creature gets -3/+3 until end of turn.
----
Urgent Research
2{U}
Instant
Draw a card. If you cast this spell during your main phase, draw two cards instead.
----
Gemhorn Stag
2{G}{G}
Creature - Elk
3/3
Flash (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant.)
When Gemhorn Stag enters the battlefield, change the target of all spells that target only a single creature to Gemhorn Stag.
----
Basking Shark
6{U}
Creature - Fish
6/6
Basking Shark can't attack unless defending player controls an Island.
When Basking Shark dies, put a 3/3 blue Globster creature token with defender onto the battlefield.
Doesn't the "Lost Confession" story mention that Elesh Norn had taken over Urbrask's and Sheoldred's dominions? Notice that it's white taking over red and black.
I bet the Lobber Crew hoarder nearly died of envy when he saw Pyroconvergence hit the table.
Regarding the draft, I would have still picked p1p2 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage. Although I understand that one usually maindecks Mizzium Mortars whenever possible, I still believe you should have at least left your options open, especially so early in the draft.
Those are some good points about Faerie Impostor you two. As long as you have a 1 mana creature, it is indeed a 2 mana 2/1 flier.
Regarding Hellhole Flailer, since you had already picked up Golgari Guildgate, I thought you already had your eye out for any black or green splash. But yeah, close pick.
Nice report there (and all previous reports as well). You're certainly tearing up the draft scene. And it seems it's safer to go just 3 color at most rather than 4.
But I'm wondering how Faerie Impostor is of any good. Seems to me its just sets you back a creature and causes tempo loss in an aggressive deck such as yours.
Unleash guys seem to be pretty amazing. Dead Reveler is amazing both as a 2/3 and as a 3/4.
I would have picked the Hellhole Flailer, at least in your drafting group. They don't seem to value Transguild Promenade too highly, and I would have expected the Izzet Keyrune to show up later on or wheel.
It's also a sign that they didn't want to make a strictly-better Wind Drake and Wild Griffin simultaneously. The card is still a fine limited creature at 1HH, and rewards commitment to one or the other of its colours.
This...
...makes a remarkable amount of sense. Which goes to show that I shouldn't be designing cards.
Anyway, I'm surprised by the very few references to the Golgari business of rotfarming. At least Selesnya stays true to its roots of token farming.
Also, there are a lot of humans in this set. But I'm glad to see there are quite a few random Beasts going around.
I'm pretty sure it did come up at some time, but maybe the search function still needs tweaking.
Anyway, my question: suppose a planeswalker has a minus loyalty ability that turns them into a creature (that's not a planeswalker), like so:
Sarkhan, the Drunk
-2: Until end of turn, Sarkhan, the Drunk becomes a legendary 4/4 red Dragon creature with flying, indestructible, and haste. (He doesn’t lose loyalty while he’s not a planeswalker.)
Now, I assume that if Sarkhan the Drunk activates this ability and hits 0 loyalty as a result, he immediately dies because state-based actions apply before the ability resolves and he stops being a planeswalker. Is this correct?
If he loses loyalty counters after the ability resolves and he becomes a creature (i.e. via Medicine Runner), he gets to stay on the battlefield until end of turn when he reverts back into a planeswalker, correct?
I suppose so. Like I said, this would probably need a rule all to itself that explicitly allow counters to be tokens.
Ah, but see, the ability treats the counters as if they were token permanents, and thus they gain all the properties of permanents. Just add a rule that says when you remove a countertoken from a permanent, it counts as the countertoken being exiled.
And Skullbriar proves counters do actually move with the permanent they are on as they change zones. So a countertoken would move to the graveyard, like a counter, and as a token would trigger any dying abilities.
I forgot to add that (while the ability is active) when a -1/-1 counter and a +1/+1 counter end up on the same permanent, when they cancel each other out it counts as exiling those countertokens.
Yes, it is an absolute mess in game, but it's fun to think up crazy things. And you're right, board complexity would indeed be an issue. But notice that it reads "nontoken permanents" without defining an owner, meaning you'll be getting tons of Saprolings as well (if your opponent chooses to pay cumulative upkeep, that is)
Yes, this means all planewalkers come with their own little troop of Plant blockers. When you choose a loyalty counter/Plant to block, it stays on the planeswalker until the countertoken dies and moves to the graveyard, thus the planeswalker loses a loyalty counter. That means you shouldn't try to block with a loyal counter/Plant if the planeswalker only has one left.
Basically, it means that any counter that ends up on a nontoken permanent becomes a 0/1 Plant creature that is also a token. Each counter remains on its permanent and retains its counter qualities (a +1/+1 counter, for example, will continue to buff whatever creature it is on) while also being a creature token (and thus be affected by Illness in the Ranks).
These "tokencounters" can be used to attack or block. If destroyed, they are removed from the permanent they are on. So if I Deathmark a Plant token/counter on Ghave, it removed from Ghave and into the Graveyard before vanishing. End result? Ghave loses a counter.
When Ghave enters the battlefield, he enters with five +1/+1 counters, which enter the battlefield as Plant tokens as well. So Ghave would trigger any "Enters the battlefield" triggers a total of six times; one for Ghave and one for each token/counter. So Pandemonium for example would trigger a total of six times.
When Ghave uses his ability to remove a counter, it is also treated as a creature leaving the battlefield, but NOT as a creature going to the graveyard. So Extractor Demon would trigger, but not Deathgreeter.
When Ghave himself is destroyed, his Plants go with him to the graveyard before disappearing, so Deathgreeter gets triggered six times. But if Ghave is exiled/bounced, the counters are simply removed and never go to the graveyard, so only Extractor Demon triggers.
The fun part is with Persist/Undying creatures. You can reuse their ability as long as you get rid of their counter, and the easiest way to do that is with something like Bloodthrone Vampire or Nantuko Husk.
With proper cards you can have lots of interesting combos. Have Puppeteer Clique and Bloodthrone Vampire out while Uvil Nepenthes Clique out. Feed the Puppeteers to the vampire, then when they persist back in feed the -1/-1 counter (that is also a lovely 0/1 Plant token) to the vampire. End result? Arbitrarily large vampire plus you've now emptied your opponent's graveyard of creatures and they're all hasted up and ready to attack.
Many persist creatures have an ETB effect, so use whichever effect you want. Want to draw your library? River Kelpie. Want to destroy every single noncreature permanent? Woodfall Ultimus!
I hope that covers your questions.
Ruinedwing Dragon
4{R}{R}
Creature - Dragon
7/4
Wingrot makes dragons easier to track down, but harder to take down.
---
Sand Flounder
1{R}
Creature - Fish
2/1
Plainswalk
Do not make the mistake of assuming there is nowhere to hide in the desert; things buried in the sand will soon prove you wrong.
---
Roosting Kathari
1{B}{R}
Creature - Bird Warrior
2/1
Flying
{B}{R}: Roosting Kathari loses flying and becomes 4/4 and colorless until end of turn.
---
Satyr Messmates
3{R}
Creature - Satyr
3/2
When Satyr Messmates enter the battlefield, gain control of target enchantment until end of turn.
Sprite Scouting Party
3{U}{U}
Creature - Faerie Scout
3/3
Flying
Whenever Sprite Scouting Party or another Scout enters the battlefield under your control, you may draw a card, then discard a card.
---
Kissing Bug
2{B}
Creature - Insect
2/1
When Kissing Bug enters the battlefield, destroy target token creature.
---
Mudflats Fiddler
2{U}
Creature - Crab
0/5
{B}: Mudflats Fiddler gets +1/-1 until end of turn.
---
Sumo Merfolk
1{U}
Creature - Merfolk
1/5
Cumulative upkeep-Put the top card of your library into the graveyard.
Sumo Merfolk get +0/+1 for each age counter on it.
---
Merfolk Phalanx
3{U}{U}
Creature - Merfolk Soldier
4/5
Cumulative upkeep-{1}
Merfolk Phalanx has hexproof as long it has two or more counters on it.
---
Gliding Skitter
2{R}
Creature - Lizard
3/1
Whenever Gliding Skitter attacks, it gains flying until end of turn
---
Encephalopathy Quetzalcoatlus
3{B}
Creature - Zombie Drake
3/3
Flying
Encephalopathy Quetzalcoatlus enters the battlefield tapped.
Maddened and dazed, it flew through the dimensional rift, its brain pitted with kuru.
---
Morgue Flitter
2{U}
Creature - Faerie Scout
2/1
Flying
Morbid — When Morgue Flitter enters the battlefield, if a creature died this turn, draw a card.
Once, I hoarded these designs to myself, hoping to one day have them printed in actual reality. But the whimsy of fantasy gives to way the sobering influence of maturity, and the fact is I'll never be a part of Wizard's Design/Development team. However, perhaps one day these ideas will inspire a designer who will be.
Anyway, these are stuff I've dreamed about and hoarded throughout the years:
First of all, the COMMANDER!
Uvil Nepenthes Clique
{U}{B}{G}{G}
Legendary Creature - Plant Faerie
4/4
Flying
Nontoken permanents have "Cumulative upkeep-Have an opponent put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield."
All counters on nontoken permanents are 0/1 green Plant creature tokens that are still counters and are are owned and controlled by the controller of the permanent that they are on.
Yeah. Believe me, it took a long time to make this thing work, and this is the best way (to avoid "counter token on counter token" and ownership issues. If this thing ever sees print, it'll probably need a rules update all to itself
----
Support:
Thrullstitcher
2{U}
Creature - Cephalid
2/3
Cumulative upkeep-mana]{1}, Exile a card from your graveyard.
When Thrullstitcher's cumulative upkeep is paid, put a 1/1 black Thrull creature token with flying onto the battlefield for each {U} or {B} spent this way.
---
Cephalid Balloonist
1{U}
Creature - Cephalid Scout
2/1
Flying
Cumulative upkeep-{U} or {2}
When Cephalid Balloonist dies, if it has two or more age counters on it, draw a card.
---
Dream-Eater Cephalid
1{U}
Creature - Cephalid
1/3
You may pay {0} rather than pay the cumulative upkeep cost for permanents you control.
{U}: Dream-Eater Cephalid gains protection from permanents with counters on them until end of turn.
---
Yeah, that last one one has been done to death. Anyway, since cephalids are now defunct it would be nice to explore them a bit more in supplementary products.
---
Limited Fodder:
Psycho Warp
{U}
Instant
Choose one-Target creature gets -3/-0 until end of turn; or switch target creature's power and toughness until end of turn.
Choose both if you cast another black spell this turn.
---
Fae Blackmailers
3{U}
Creature - Faerie Rogue
2/2
Flying
Extort
---
Crackshelled Crab
3{U}
Creature - Crab
4/6
Crackshelled Crab enters the battlefield with two -1/-1 counters on it.
----
Smog Scream
{U}{B}
Intant
Target creature gets +3/-3 until end of turn.
Target creature gets -3/+3 until end of turn.
----
Urgent Research
2{U}
Instant
Draw a card. If you cast this spell during your main phase, draw two cards instead.
----
Gemhorn Stag
2{G}{G}
Creature - Elk
3/3
Flash (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant.)
When Gemhorn Stag enters the battlefield, change the target of all spells that target only a single creature to Gemhorn Stag.
----
Basking Shark
6{U}
Creature - Fish
6/6
Basking Shark can't attack unless defending player controls an Island.
When Basking Shark dies, put a 3/3 blue Globster creature token with defender onto the battlefield.
Enjoy!
The Wedge block might be the next Phyrexian War.
I bet the Lobber Crew hoarder nearly died of envy when he saw Pyroconvergence hit the table.
Regarding the draft, I would have still picked p1p2 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage. Although I understand that one usually maindecks Mizzium Mortars whenever possible, I still believe you should have at least left your options open, especially so early in the draft.
Regarding Hellhole Flailer, since you had already picked up Golgari Guildgate, I thought you already had your eye out for any black or green splash. But yeah, close pick.
But I'm wondering how Faerie Impostor is of any good. Seems to me its just sets you back a creature and causes tempo loss in an aggressive deck such as yours.
Unleash guys seem to be pretty amazing. Dead Reveler is amazing both as a 2/3 and as a 3/4.
I would have picked the Hellhole Flailer, at least in your drafting group. They don't seem to value Transguild Promenade too highly, and I would have expected the Izzet Keyrune to show up later on or wheel.
This...
...makes a remarkable amount of sense. Which goes to show that I shouldn't be designing cards.
Anyway, I'm surprised by the very few references to the Golgari business of rotfarming. At least Selesnya stays true to its roots of token farming.
Also, there are a lot of humans in this set. But I'm glad to see there are quite a few random Beasts going around.
I understand the need for limited fodder (Gloomhunter and Avian Changeling are some of my favorite cards).
What confounds me is the fact that it is 1:symuw::symuw:, instead of 2:symuw:.
I mean, really?