Point being is that there are ways to play around both cards. You can play around anything. That is a poor argument. I'm not arguing what plays around what. The fact is Tooth and Nail should be banned based on what it can do. Just like other cards on the ban list are banned because of what they can do. You can play Griselbrand and only draw 2 cards with him, but face it, he wasn't banned because somebody drew 2 cards with him. He was banned because of what he can do.
So you also want to ban Academy Rector, Omniscience, DEN, Palinchron, Saffi, Llark, K Guide, MoM, Teferi, Temple Bell, and more? I could go on but you get the point. Where is your cut off for cards that could end the game?
I'm not advocating for an Un-ban of Worldfire. I am using it to illustrate a point. If one 9 mana sorcery can be allowed to win the game on the spot ie: Tooth and Nail, why shouldn't another like Worldfire be allowed to? I can draw 7 cards with Griselbrand and use him for value, just like I can go get 2 decent creatures with TnN and not combo the entire table. Please explain why TnN isn't banned again.
People have explained, you just don't like the answer. Other than the mana cost, very little is similar between TaN AMD Worldfire.
@ Kosmik, aw you think I'm special!
Cry, it isn't that I don't like the answer, it's that nobody can give me a straight answer. If there is a meta where TnN is played fairly, I would greatly like to play in it because it doesn't exist anywhere close to where I play. There is no difference in somebody casting a 9 mana TnN, comboing out the table and somebody casting Worldfire and ending the game, other than the TnN player used ramp and done it on turn 4. Cards like Worldfire, Griselbrand, and others have been banned because of what they can do to the game. Why not TnN? I actually agree that if the current ban list is in tact, maybe we should add cards like Palinchron, MoM, Hermit Druid, and other offenders that are only used in degenerate fashions. Don't try and give me "where does it stop?" the banning of TnN, MoM, Hermit Druid, and Palinchron would actually shake the format up and force some better building to happen. If there is going to be a banlist, make it consistant. Otherwise, get rid of it and let players play what they will.
taker; did you play during the time when emrakul was unbanned? what about primeval titan? if so, then you may remember how pretty much any game became about who could land that creature first. as soon as someone did, it wasn't so much about using your removal spell to kill it, it was about using your resources to steal it/clone it/etc and gain value. Their power level is at such a level, their interactions with casual and non-breaking the format ways still devolve the game from EDH to control the X/Y/Z for the longest period of time. I can't speak for certain that is what is on the RC's mind with some of the powerhouse creatures, just my own interpretations/experiences.
About worldfire, i see that along the same ban criteria as coalition victory or upheaval. Due to the uniqueness of the command zone, those cards create very 1-sides and reliable situations that i don't think you want every game to become.
lose- lazy politics; when someone makes a decision in game because "meh whatever" or "i don't care if your gaddok teeg has been preventing the combo player from going off for the past 6 turns, I want to play doubling season now!!!" and it ends up screwing me to the point that i lose.
also, Bruna, light of alabaster.... ew yuck... blugh; someone in my meta built her. It's basically a hard counter to uril. We did play some fun 1-1 games though.
in my opinion beseech the queen is always worse than diabolic tutor.
diabolic tutor - always searches for any card, there are no restrictions to what card you find. Additionally you do not need to reveal. the drawback is that is always costs 2BB.
beseech the queen - is restricted to what card it can find; sure you can argue that late game it can find anything because your land count is equal to the highest casting cost in your deck; however, if you have reached that point the one additional mana to cast diabolic is probably not meaningful. The only time that beseech the queen is better than diabolic tutor is when you cast it for BBB; however in that instance you are most likely searching for a card with a low mana cost. worse still, you need to reveal what you searched for - no surprises for your opponents.
I also find that two color decks would be casting this for 2BB anyways given a mana base of an average player or the need to use their remaining black mana on the card they are searching for; unless they already have urborg, tomb of yawgmoth in play. so in many instances you would be paying the same casting cost of diabolic tutor, but limited the choices you can target or revealing what you search for when you don't have to.
i really dislike beseech the queen though, i just feel that it's one of the weakest tutors that black has to offer; because 1) you have to reveal, 2) it is outclassed by many other tutors, and 3) to optimize it's cheap usage you either have urborg in play already or you are in mono black.
Actually, snow lands alone would ensure that all five of these fly off the shelves in a roughly even enough distribution to get multiple print runs. And who knows, maybe it will have a tie-in with the upcoming set. I wouldn't get my hopes up for full art though.
Indeed. I'm not planning on buying any of these, but if they use snow basics for them, I'd seriously consider buying all 5. What a pleasant surprise that'd be!
i'd like to see fetchlands that get only one land type.
Pay 1 life, sac, T: Search for forest and put into play.
Useful in the decks because they can put some non-basics with land subtype (a la dryad arbor); great to use in other commander decks that are multi-colored, not as great as normal fetches so legacy players may not want them (at least not nearly so much as to eat the market), and not a budget option to save modern players from buying zendikar fetches.
also - I guess bo levar isn't going to get a PW; unless each color gets more than one.
however, i will yield that most of my decks didn't run sol ring until the second run of commander decks when I had an influx of them. I think i only have about 2 decks now that do not run sol ring. it is reasonable to say the same would be true if i suddenly had a pile of mana crypts from the precons. or more likely - i would build one or more of the new commanders which would already have that card in the deck and the left overs crypts would be added to old decks that i could see improving. much in the way that having a bunch of sol rings changed my old decks.
I need to chime in with my thoughts on mana crypt.
first and foremost, i would be a sad panda seeing this go; i own 5... i think? the first one i obtained was for my Phage edh deck; because it let me cast her faster (well not so much me but the poor soul who i lent the deck to bwahahahaha). The first one i bought cost around $30. it hasn't left that deck since I've purchased it.
the next one i bought when it was around $40, i put that into sedris because i wanted it to be my competitive bring this to tournaments deck. losing it would be sad, but understandable. it is very powerful.
the others i picked up around $50-$65 when the judge promos came out. Uril, frankie peanuts, and nekusar got one... actually i think i have 6 one for krenko too. outside of nekusar, the sole purpose was to help ensure an earlier cast of the general. in nekusar it's because it's free mana when i wheel.
for me, it's playing with old cards i've had for a while. if i was just starting up (or making a new deck) i'd only consider it for decks that really needed it.
if i was making a multicolor deck, i'd determine if i wanted duals, shocks, fetches that directly match color identity, fetches that match only one color identity. similarly, i'd figure out if the deck needed mana crypt, the answer isn't always yes.
the 6 decks above make up about 15% of all the edh decks i've built. i currently have 13 active decks and have broken down another 15 or so decks over time that didn't run mana crypt.
sol ring and mana crypt fall into a spot of artifact ramp that only is relevant in early turns. anything after turn 3-4; getting either is lackluster. anything after turn 7-8; getting either is usually disappointing.
Ajani - If i wanted him for his plus ability i'd rather play ajani, caller of the pride. ajani goldmane feels like a better fit for creature based decks. this new ajani ultimate is insane though; however, i feel that using him to reach that point is not worthwhile, 3-mana ajani is better at pumping a single creature. Outside of superfriends (where you need 2 other walkers in play to really make it feel worthwhile, i do not feel this ajani is as good as previous iterations. which is sad because i wanted to make superfriends edh.
garruk - i feel like he is a big version of vraska and primal hunter. I can't comment too much since i havent tested him however. I think his cost is a bit too high for what we get. cool flavor though.
jace - i agree with this being a fair mindsculptor. or rather if you averaged the two of them together you would have a well balance walker. his minus ability is far too expensive i feel, yet it does affect any permanent. the ultimate is back breaking but not game winning.
nissa - just in time for me to be building karametra and i opened one in my prize packs from pre-release. Her make a creature a 4/4 a land hasn't been relevant yet. I doubt i will use it as i'd rather not lose a land to a wrath effect. similarly with her ultimate. her untap 4 forests, however, making her a walker version of gilded lotus has been great! is she better than garruk wildspeaker in that regard, i don't think so. but the two complement each other very well.
also, i was very shocked to see a liliana vess reprint; i honestly though liliana of the veil would have been more fitting with 1) timeline proximity and 2) storyline (and honestly i could care less about bringing cost down, i already own a set)
Being dead doesn't stop a character from being printed.
Being dead wasn't even something that stopped old walkers - urza had his head chopped off and was still talking and directing gerard... erg want to derail thread to a vorthosian walker debate... trying to hold back...
ok; let's think new cards again dual-colored generals to cast with wedge activated abilities.
Urza, Jaya, Titania, Serra, Bo Levar, and possibly Leshrac are all dead. They cannot get new cards. Teferi on the other hand...
They most definitely could get new cards. They may not because WotC says they care about their continuity, which is only sometimes true. A supplemental product would be the only place to print such characters providing they explain that they are dead in the storyline proper.
I for one would love to see more references to Magic's past, cause ya know the story existed a long time before Jace&Co.
No, they can't get new cards. They all died before The Mending. They never were planeswalkers in the modern sense of the word. So if Wizards cares about their stories at all, then they can't give them planeswalker cards, as they never were the weak planeswalkers that exist today.
after reading the scars of miroddin book, i no longer feel that bolded statement applies... *shudders*
now as for reprinting old walkers as walker cards; this is a supplemental product; it is not bound by a timeline.
i would like to see one of the decks to be snow-themed too - maybe a commander that costs less for each snow permanent in play (but also dies easily/to gain an effect and would raise a large commander tax)
a werewolf legend with transform would be amazing. additionally, a commander with transform would be fun.
taker; did you play during the time when emrakul was unbanned? what about primeval titan? if so, then you may remember how pretty much any game became about who could land that creature first. as soon as someone did, it wasn't so much about using your removal spell to kill it, it was about using your resources to steal it/clone it/etc and gain value. Their power level is at such a level, their interactions with casual and non-breaking the format ways still devolve the game from EDH to control the X/Y/Z for the longest period of time. I can't speak for certain that is what is on the RC's mind with some of the powerhouse creatures, just my own interpretations/experiences.
About worldfire, i see that along the same ban criteria as coalition victory or upheaval. Due to the uniqueness of the command zone, those cards create very 1-sides and reliable situations that i don't think you want every game to become.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
lose- lazy politics; when someone makes a decision in game because "meh whatever" or "i don't care if your gaddok teeg has been preventing the combo player from going off for the past 6 turns, I want to play doubling season now!!!" and it ends up screwing me to the point that i lose.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
also, Bruna, light of alabaster.... ew yuck... blugh; someone in my meta built her. It's basically a hard counter to uril. We did play some fun 1-1 games though.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
diabolic tutor - always searches for any card, there are no restrictions to what card you find. Additionally you do not need to reveal. the drawback is that is always costs 2BB.
beseech the queen - is restricted to what card it can find; sure you can argue that late game it can find anything because your land count is equal to the highest casting cost in your deck; however, if you have reached that point the one additional mana to cast diabolic is probably not meaningful. The only time that beseech the queen is better than diabolic tutor is when you cast it for BBB; however in that instance you are most likely searching for a card with a low mana cost. worse still, you need to reveal what you searched for - no surprises for your opponents.
I also find that two color decks would be casting this for 2BB anyways given a mana base of an average player or the need to use their remaining black mana on the card they are searching for; unless they already have urborg, tomb of yawgmoth in play. so in many instances you would be paying the same casting cost of diabolic tutor, but limited the choices you can target or revealing what you search for when you don't have to.
i really dislike beseech the queen though, i just feel that it's one of the weakest tutors that black has to offer; because 1) you have to reveal, 2) it is outclassed by many other tutors, and 3) to optimize it's cheap usage you either have urborg in play already or you are in mono black.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
Full art Zendikar-style Snow lands!
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
i'd like to see fetchlands that get only one land type.
Pay 1 life, sac, T: Search for forest and put into play.
Useful in the decks because they can put some non-basics with land subtype (a la dryad arbor); great to use in other commander decks that are multi-colored, not as great as normal fetches so legacy players may not want them (at least not nearly so much as to eat the market), and not a budget option to save modern players from buying zendikar fetches.
also - I guess bo levar isn't going to get a PW; unless each color gets more than one.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
i want to say no; based on the fact that sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault, grim monolith all exist are similar in function and each of my decks does not use all 4.
however, i will yield that most of my decks didn't run sol ring until the second run of commander decks when I had an influx of them. I think i only have about 2 decks now that do not run sol ring. it is reasonable to say the same would be true if i suddenly had a pile of mana crypts from the precons. or more likely - i would build one or more of the new commanders which would already have that card in the deck and the left overs crypts would be added to old decks that i could see improving. much in the way that having a bunch of sol rings changed my old decks.
good question.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
first and foremost, i would be a sad panda seeing this go; i own 5... i think? the first one i obtained was for my Phage edh deck; because it let me cast her faster (well not so much me but the poor soul who i lent the deck to bwahahahaha). The first one i bought cost around $30. it hasn't left that deck since I've purchased it.
the next one i bought when it was around $40, i put that into sedris because i wanted it to be my competitive bring this to tournaments deck. losing it would be sad, but understandable. it is very powerful.
the others i picked up around $50-$65 when the judge promos came out. Uril, frankie peanuts, and nekusar got one... actually i think i have 6 one for krenko too. outside of nekusar, the sole purpose was to help ensure an earlier cast of the general. in nekusar it's because it's free mana when i wheel.
for me, it's playing with old cards i've had for a while. if i was just starting up (or making a new deck) i'd only consider it for decks that really needed it.
if i was making a multicolor deck, i'd determine if i wanted duals, shocks, fetches that directly match color identity, fetches that match only one color identity. similarly, i'd figure out if the deck needed mana crypt, the answer isn't always yes.
the 6 decks above make up about 15% of all the edh decks i've built. i currently have 13 active decks and have broken down another 15 or so decks over time that didn't run mana crypt.
sol ring and mana crypt fall into a spot of artifact ramp that only is relevant in early turns. anything after turn 3-4; getting either is lackluster. anything after turn 7-8; getting either is usually disappointing.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
garruk - i feel like he is a big version of vraska and primal hunter. I can't comment too much since i havent tested him however. I think his cost is a bit too high for what we get. cool flavor though.
jace - i agree with this being a fair mindsculptor. or rather if you averaged the two of them together you would have a well balance walker. his minus ability is far too expensive i feel, yet it does affect any permanent. the ultimate is back breaking but not game winning.
nissa - just in time for me to be building karametra and i opened one in my prize packs from pre-release. Her make a creature a 4/4 a land hasn't been relevant yet. I doubt i will use it as i'd rather not lose a land to a wrath effect. similarly with her ultimate. her untap 4 forests, however, making her a walker version of gilded lotus has been great! is she better than garruk wildspeaker in that regard, i don't think so. but the two complement each other very well.
also, i was very shocked to see a liliana vess reprint; i honestly though liliana of the veil would have been more fitting with 1) timeline proximity and 2) storyline (and honestly i could care less about bringing cost down, i already own a set)
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
Being dead wasn't even something that stopped old walkers - urza had his head chopped off and was still talking and directing gerard... erg want to derail thread to a vorthosian walker debate... trying to hold back...
ok; let's think new cards again dual-colored generals to cast with wedge activated abilities.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
after reading the scars of miroddin book, i no longer feel that bolded statement applies... *shudders*
now as for reprinting old walkers as walker cards; this is a supplemental product; it is not bound by a timeline.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
a werewolf legend with transform would be amazing. additionally, a commander with transform would be fun.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
i was still hoping it would come out in from the vault annihilation.
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Uril, The Miststalker
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If that is correct, it may be worth mentioning scion of the ur-dragon.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.