Ryagami97: your points on Sultai ascendancy would be relevant if it was an aggro deck being brewed. I agree that it doesn't provide direct CA, but it certainly gives virtual CA, scrying two before you draw every flaming turn is incredible.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
Clocks don't have to be fast if you have strong control. (Nephalia Drownyard was a valid win-com back in the day and that was slower than 3 damage per turn.
But for a win-con at the moment I'm more interested in the XXBBBB instant delving zombie maker.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
I suggested Ascendancy and/or more Jace for a reason, they're both repeated filtering effects turn by turn enabling you to scope your draws to a v.high degree, if you have courser in play it gets even better, omenspeaker doesn't compare.
On the aggro point I agree and suggest 4x drown in sorrow in the 75 as a start but not the whole answer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
I think it's very hard to say what the best control deck will be at this stage, though I would like to give a few thoughts.
In general there are two ways to make a control deck:
1. Find the most broken catch all answers, jam them together then tweak slightly, this strategy should always have some success as long as broken catch-alls exist (obvious example here is supreme verdict + sphinx's rev, to a large extent you don't even need to know what people are playing to know that 4 of each of those is a good start for a deck)
2. Carefully craft a balance of answers for a specific meta-game these may not be the most broken cards but rather things that are broken against certain decks, e.g. running Drown in Sorrow against a deck that spams x/2s, or Hero's Downfall against a deck that plays lots of big dudes and walkers.
If method 2 is taken then perhaps you don't need a broad sweeper depending how the meta is forming. I'd also like to note that there are finishers in every colour and so whilst Elspeth is one of the most obvious she doesn't guarantee that white is the best option.
I'm not going to give a list at the moment, but a few ideas:
1. If aggro is the big thing (often the case early in a season) then we want to look at Anger of the Gods and/or Drown in Sorrow + cheap removal such as Pharaka's Cure, Lightning Strike, Ulcerate etc. Another idea is Winterflame kill one cheap dude and tap another.
2. If it's all about midrange we need bigger spells like Hero's Downfall and possibly End Hostilities/Fated Retribution (depending on threat density)
3. There are various v.interesting cards to think about for some examples:
In BUG Sultai Charm looks very solid and Sultai Ascendancy has a lot of potential. Font of Fortunes is a great alt to divination, only having to spend 2 on a turn allows a lot more flexibility.
If WBG is possible then Abzan charm has some serious potential. Murderous Cut and Dead Drop are both interesting but the later at least is probably too expensive even with delve. Disdainful stroke will be great vs midrange
Depending on meta various old cards could work, Nullify was great against a lot of decks last season and I could imagine it still being good, Jace, the Living Guildpact is interesting, though clearly poor vs low curve aggro.
My overall conclusion to all this is that our options are wide open, no we don't have anything quite as obviously amazing as the supreme verdict + sphinx's rev combo, but we don't have to, different metas can be controlled in different ways, as a blast from the past, see this control deck with nil sweepers: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/winning-york-states-ub-control/
Let us go forth and brew
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
I also think he has a lot of potential, clearly not a card to jam into every deck that runs blue but in the right deck could be very useful, though I note he clearly competes with Sultai ascendancy when playing BUG, the bounce effect is also worthwhile, perhaps a 2/2 split or something if in bug? Depending on deck space obviously, and subject to much testing...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
I posted this on your other thread but as this is now in the right place thought I'd post here as well, I note you've made some changes, but most of the below is still relevant, also, I would have gone for font of fortunes over divination.
It's very hard to brew a UB control list before seeing a meta as it's hard to know what needs to be answered.
So all comments need a pinch of a salt.
That said:
1. Your card draw seems poor, Vess, Jace's ingenuity and Dig Through time are all slow to get on line and Vess doesn't actually draw a card. I'd definitely keep the Ingenuities possibly going up to 3 of them, but Some font of fortune would also be good. Dig through time I'm unsure on, in general your mana curve seems very high, perhaps as a 1 of?
2. You have no answer to a resolved God card, this could be quite an issue, Jace, the living guildpact is one possibility, As a planeswalker he has various other upsides. Another option is Kiora's Dismissal (in some ways more narrow but only 1CMC), or Void Snare, Sorcery and no other benefit but again only 1 CMC, depending on meta this may not matter or may be something for the sideboard but it's a point to consider.
3. Clever impersonator as a 4 of seems odd, it's going to be useless quite a bit as the normal idea is to keep the board clear also 4 CMC is a lot.
4. In general your curve seems high-ish 4 at 1 CMC, 3 at 2 CMC, 12 at 3 CMC and the rest higher, it's certainly not awful, but I think it's a low count particularly at 1-2 CMC, often control decks have nothing at 1 CMC, but I'd aim at more 2 CMC spells if possible. I'm also unsure on your quantity of creatures and planeswalkers vs answers.
5. I'd want more counter spells, possibly this is down to my playstyle when I think of UB, but I tend to think of drawing more cards than the opponent and always holding the counter, just 4 counters isn't that many. I wouldn't want to run thoughtseize unless 100% necessary or vs other control decks (where duress out of the sideboard is almost as good), the reason for this is that the idea is to run the opponent out of cards then win eventually, if the opponent is top decking thoughtseize is useless.(the strat doesn't work in control mirrors of course) Obviously thoughtseize is good in the first 5 or so turns, the question is whether its good enough to warrant damaging your late game, often the answer in a UB control deck is no.
6. I'd want more lands, I'd normally run 26 in a control deck, and would possibly run some off colour temples to improve early draws.
7. Other cards of particular note for the deck are: Drown in Sorrow, a key answer if fast aggro becomes a thing Ulcerate, only if necessary, bit of a two edged sword, Pharaka's Cure, another good one against fast aggro (if they have 1-2 toughness not 3) Nullify all around brilliant card Annul possible sideboard option depending how things go
I hope the above thoughts are useful, enjoy brewing.
Disclaimer: I'm currently in the middle of an extended break from playing magic, I've played UB control to positive finishes at PTQs and other smaller events but not for many months.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
montypylon: I think you're too quick to rule out pure control as a strat, even for the specified colours, that said I agree on the weaknesses of the list.
The obvious options to improve it are:
a) some card draw e.g. Erebos, Read the Bones or Sign in blood
b) More planeswalkers as they can do stuff and stick around hence generating implicit CA
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
It's very hard to brew a UB control list before seeing a meta as it's hard to know what needs to be answered.
So all comments need a pinch of a salt.
That said:
1. Your card draw seems poor, Vess, Jace's ingenuity and Dig Through time are all slow to get on line and Vess doesn't actually draw a card. I'd definitely keep the Ingenuities possibly going up to 3 of them, but Some font of fortune would also be good. Dig through time I'm unsure on, in general your mana curve seems very high, perhaps as a 1 of?
2. You have no answer to a resolved God card, this could be quite an issue, Jace, the living guildpact is one possibility, As a planeswalker he has various other upsides. Another option is Kiora's Dismissal (in some ways more narrow but only 1CMC), or Void Snare, Sorcery and no other benefit but again only 1 CMC, depending on meta this may not matter or may be something for the sideboard but it's a point to consider.
3. Clever impersonator as a 4 of seems odd, it's going to be useless quite a bit as the normal idea is to keep the board clear also 4 CMC is a lot.
4. In general your curve seems high-ish 4 at 1 CMC, 3 at 2 CMC, 12 at 3 CMC and the rest higher, it's certainly not awful, but I think it's a low count particularly at 1-2 CMC, often control decks have nothing at 1 CMC, but I'd aim at more 2 CMC spells if possible. I'm also unsure on your quantity of creatures and planeswalkers vs answers.
5. I'd want more counter spells, possibly this is down to my playstyle when I think of UB, but I tend to think of drawing more cards than the opponent and always holding the counter, just 4 counters isn't that many. I wouldn't want to run thoughtseize unless 100% necessary or vs other control decks (where duress out of the sideboard is almost as good), the reason for this is that the idea is to run the opponent out of cards then win eventually, if the opponent is top decking thoughtseize is useless.(the strat doesn't work in control mirrors of course) Obviously thoughtseize is good in the first 5 or so turns, the question is whether its good enough to warrant damaging your late game, often the answer in a UB control deck is no.
6. I'd want more lands, I'd normally run 26 in a control deck, and would possibly run some off colour temples to improve early draws.
7. Other cards of particular note for the deck are: Drown in Sorrow, a key answer if fast aggro becomes a thing Ulcerate, only if necessary, bit of a two edged sword, Pharaka's Cure, another good one against fast aggro (if they have 1-2 toughness not 3) Nullify all around brilliant card Annul possible sideboard option depending how things go
I hope the above thoughts are useful, enjoy brewing.
Disclaimer: I'm currently in the middle of an extended break from playing magic, I've played UB control to positive finishes at PTQs and other smaller events but not for many months.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
I think the honest point at the moment is no one has a clue what will be good, it's all experimentation, pick something and give it a go.
There's enough strong UB cards that some sort of UB based control deck will be good though what exactly who can say atm, need to see how the meta forms to be able to brew control unless you have general good cards like sphinx's rev and supreme verdict control takes crafting to a meta which can't be done atm as there is no meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
Ok, so in an attempt to kick off discussion here again, here's a list, it's rough and out of date but it's what I've been tinkering with, it borrows heavily from INS' earlier lists, I've been thinking it could do with an extra tutor and may try a one of clutch of the undercity, possibly instead of the second increasing vegeance as its effect is minor, other thing I've been thinking of is one or two extra rituals as without a ritual in hand you tend to need 6 land to go off:
Spares (1) // improve consistency slightly by chance of drawing it allowing nice gift piles, also occasionally has other relevence 1 Increasing Vengeance
I decided against Empty the Warrens for the board. The game plan against Leyline is to just bounce it and win with Grapeshot. Gifts Ungiven lets you fetch whatever you need while your comboing off so you dont really need to worry about Leyline at all as long as you sided in some bounce. I decided id rather just have better control cards in my board than eating 3 slots up with EtW. So far i have been happy with this set up.
You can't play gifts when the opponent has a leyline of sanctity on board as it targets them
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
I don't see clutch messing up the mana base, we already run blue and black, (black for teachings FB, consume the meek and other tech).
It's an idea, but I like to mostly play at instant speed, perhaps, I guess 3 mana could be a good spot for a tutor that can fetch stuff like damnation if boarded in.
Swerve is another interesting idea, my general plan when expecting targeted hate is transform, take out the rituals, the grapeshot, the PiF etc bring in more control elements and a control style finisher like Teferi.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
But for a win-con at the moment I'm more interested in the XXBBBB instant delving zombie maker.
On the aggro point I agree and suggest 4x drown in sorrow in the 75 as a start but not the whole answer.
I wouldn't run more than one garruk
if you're running Courser I'd run all 4 + look at running Sultai ascendancy and/or more jace.
That's a starting point. Though there is likely more to do.
In general there are two ways to make a control deck:
1. Find the most broken catch all answers, jam them together then tweak slightly, this strategy should always have some success as long as broken catch-alls exist (obvious example here is supreme verdict + sphinx's rev, to a large extent you don't even need to know what people are playing to know that 4 of each of those is a good start for a deck)
2. Carefully craft a balance of answers for a specific meta-game these may not be the most broken cards but rather things that are broken against certain decks, e.g. running Drown in Sorrow against a deck that spams x/2s, or Hero's Downfall against a deck that plays lots of big dudes and walkers.
If method 2 is taken then perhaps you don't need a broad sweeper depending how the meta is forming. I'd also like to note that there are finishers in every colour and so whilst Elspeth is one of the most obvious she doesn't guarantee that white is the best option.
I'm not going to give a list at the moment, but a few ideas:
1. If aggro is the big thing (often the case early in a season) then we want to look at Anger of the Gods and/or Drown in Sorrow + cheap removal such as Pharaka's Cure, Lightning Strike, Ulcerate etc. Another idea is Winterflame kill one cheap dude and tap another.
2. If it's all about midrange we need bigger spells like Hero's Downfall and possibly End Hostilities/Fated Retribution (depending on threat density)
3. There are various v.interesting cards to think about for some examples:
In BUG Sultai Charm looks very solid and Sultai Ascendancy has a lot of potential.
Font of Fortunes is a great alt to divination, only having to spend 2 on a turn allows a lot more flexibility.
If WBG is possible then Abzan charm has some serious potential.
Murderous Cut and Dead Drop are both interesting but the later at least is probably too expensive even with delve.
Disdainful stroke will be great vs midrange
Depending on meta various old cards could work, Nullify was great against a lot of decks last season and I could imagine it still being good, Jace, the Living Guildpact is interesting, though clearly poor vs low curve aggro.
My overall conclusion to all this is that our options are wide open, no we don't have anything quite as obviously amazing as the supreme verdict + sphinx's rev combo, but we don't have to, different metas can be controlled in different ways, as a blast from the past, see this control deck with nil sweepers: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/winning-york-states-ub-control/
Let us go forth and brew
It's very hard to brew a UB control list before seeing a meta as it's hard to know what needs to be answered.
So all comments need a pinch of a salt.
That said:
1. Your card draw seems poor, Vess, Jace's ingenuity and Dig Through time are all slow to get on line and Vess doesn't actually draw a card. I'd definitely keep the Ingenuities possibly going up to 3 of them, but Some font of fortune would also be good. Dig through time I'm unsure on, in general your mana curve seems very high, perhaps as a 1 of?
2. You have no answer to a resolved God card, this could be quite an issue, Jace, the living guildpact is one possibility, As a planeswalker he has various other upsides. Another option is Kiora's Dismissal (in some ways more narrow but only 1CMC), or Void Snare, Sorcery and no other benefit but again only 1 CMC, depending on meta this may not matter or may be something for the sideboard but it's a point to consider.
3. Clever impersonator as a 4 of seems odd, it's going to be useless quite a bit as the normal idea is to keep the board clear also 4 CMC is a lot.
4. In general your curve seems high-ish 4 at 1 CMC, 3 at 2 CMC, 12 at 3 CMC and the rest higher, it's certainly not awful, but I think it's a low count particularly at 1-2 CMC, often control decks have nothing at 1 CMC, but I'd aim at more 2 CMC spells if possible. I'm also unsure on your quantity of creatures and planeswalkers vs answers.
5. I'd want more counter spells, possibly this is down to my playstyle when I think of UB, but I tend to think of drawing more cards than the opponent and always holding the counter, just 4 counters isn't that many. I wouldn't want to run thoughtseize unless 100% necessary or vs other control decks (where duress out of the sideboard is almost as good), the reason for this is that the idea is to run the opponent out of cards then win eventually, if the opponent is top decking thoughtseize is useless.(the strat doesn't work in control mirrors of course) Obviously thoughtseize is good in the first 5 or so turns, the question is whether its good enough to warrant damaging your late game, often the answer in a UB control deck is no.
6. I'd want more lands, I'd normally run 26 in a control deck, and would possibly run some off colour temples to improve early draws.
7. Other cards of particular note for the deck are:
Drown in Sorrow, a key answer if fast aggro becomes a thing
Ulcerate, only if necessary, bit of a two edged sword,
Pharaka's Cure, another good one against fast aggro (if they have 1-2 toughness not 3)
Nullify all around brilliant card
Annul possible sideboard option depending how things go
I hope the above thoughts are useful, enjoy brewing.
Disclaimer: I'm currently in the middle of an extended break from playing magic, I've played UB control to positive finishes at PTQs and other smaller events but not for many months.
The obvious options to improve it are:
a) some card draw e.g. Erebos, Read the Bones or Sign in blood
b) More planeswalkers as they can do stuff and stick around hence generating implicit CA
So all comments need a pinch of a salt.
That said:
1. Your card draw seems poor, Vess, Jace's ingenuity and Dig Through time are all slow to get on line and Vess doesn't actually draw a card. I'd definitely keep the Ingenuities possibly going up to 3 of them, but Some font of fortune would also be good. Dig through time I'm unsure on, in general your mana curve seems very high, perhaps as a 1 of?
2. You have no answer to a resolved God card, this could be quite an issue, Jace, the living guildpact is one possibility, As a planeswalker he has various other upsides. Another option is Kiora's Dismissal (in some ways more narrow but only 1CMC), or Void Snare, Sorcery and no other benefit but again only 1 CMC, depending on meta this may not matter or may be something for the sideboard but it's a point to consider.
3. Clever impersonator as a 4 of seems odd, it's going to be useless quite a bit as the normal idea is to keep the board clear also 4 CMC is a lot.
4. In general your curve seems high-ish 4 at 1 CMC, 3 at 2 CMC, 12 at 3 CMC and the rest higher, it's certainly not awful, but I think it's a low count particularly at 1-2 CMC, often control decks have nothing at 1 CMC, but I'd aim at more 2 CMC spells if possible. I'm also unsure on your quantity of creatures and planeswalkers vs answers.
5. I'd want more counter spells, possibly this is down to my playstyle when I think of UB, but I tend to think of drawing more cards than the opponent and always holding the counter, just 4 counters isn't that many. I wouldn't want to run thoughtseize unless 100% necessary or vs other control decks (where duress out of the sideboard is almost as good), the reason for this is that the idea is to run the opponent out of cards then win eventually, if the opponent is top decking thoughtseize is useless.(the strat doesn't work in control mirrors of course) Obviously thoughtseize is good in the first 5 or so turns, the question is whether its good enough to warrant damaging your late game, often the answer in a UB control deck is no.
6. I'd want more lands, I'd normally run 26 in a control deck, and would possibly run some off colour temples to improve early draws.
7. Other cards of particular note for the deck are:
Drown in Sorrow, a key answer if fast aggro becomes a thing
Ulcerate, only if necessary, bit of a two edged sword,
Pharaka's Cure, another good one against fast aggro (if they have 1-2 toughness not 3)
Nullify all around brilliant card
Annul possible sideboard option depending how things go
I hope the above thoughts are useful, enjoy brewing.
Disclaimer: I'm currently in the middle of an extended break from playing magic, I've played UB control to positive finishes at PTQs and other smaller events but not for many months.
There's enough strong UB cards that some sort of UB based control deck will be good though what exactly who can say atm, need to see how the meta forms to be able to brew control unless you have general good cards like sphinx's rev and supreme verdict control takes crafting to a meta which can't be done atm as there is no meta.
I agree on 3 Aetherling seeming like too many, would go to 2 at most.
Definately agree on wanting to run day of judgement (or supreme verdict if you can get it)
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Forest
2 Reflecting Pool
3 Halimar Depths
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Fungal Reaches
1 Blood Crypt
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Noxious Revival // for putting grapeshot on top of deck
2 Past in Flames // sometimes need both if, they put the first one into yard when you cast the first gifts, when you do the second gifts to get grapeshot you have to get another PiF
1 Grapeshot
1 Channel the Suns
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Mana Seism
1 Manamorphose //for drawing the grapeshot
1 Remand //this almost never gets a high storm count so has to remand the grapeshot
Spares (1) // improve consistency slightly by chance of drawing it allowing nice gift piles, also occasionally has other relevence
1 Increasing Vengeance
Backup Tutors (3)
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Muddle the Mixture
Flexspots/Utility/control (18)
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
3 Remand
1 Izzet Charm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Consume the Meek
3 Manamorphose
2 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Mana Leak
I don't have a relevent sideboard at the moment other than knowing it should have teferi and a beater of some sort as a transformation plan.
It's an idea, but I like to mostly play at instant speed, perhaps, I guess 3 mana could be a good spot for a tutor that can fetch stuff like damnation if boarded in.
Swerve is another interesting idea, my general plan when expecting targeted hate is transform, take out the rituals, the grapeshot, the PiF etc bring in more control elements and a control style finisher like Teferi.