Given how long we've been sitting at -1, I'm certainly not going to complain.
I assumed I was lynched, with good reason, and no-one prodded me for a week to say otherwise. Then I do come back, and THEN a deadline hits which is basically an instruction from the mod to finish the lynch already. No deadline should be placed with a day at -1 unless it's like a deadlock with 3 people alive or something.
If anyone has anything they want posted to CS, I'm more than happy to oblige.
*eyebrow at Rafk*
You've already noted once that Axelrod didn't pass on the entire message that you sent, which I was surprised you didn't follow up on. But that's only secondary at this stage. My point is mostly that townies up in Cyberspace shouldn't be lining up their abilities on the basis that the opinions passed on to them via you and Axelrod are 100% completely and correct since I know they are not and while my death reveal (which seems inevitable at this point) should clue people in on that, I couldn't really think of a better use of my ability at this point to remind people that you could be wrong about more than one thing. And also to make sure my suspicions are known to them, because I certainly couldn't rely on you and Axelrod to pass that on in time.
Well. Until I got prodded I had just assumed I was lynched, so let's not add to that 26 days ooga booga Seppel 'cos I kind of had good reason not to be checking the thread. Also if I'm still in this game, I'm not responding to anything else you say for the sake of trying to enjoy the game. I'm comfortable that you're not scum, so I don't really have any need to question you. If there's something relevant people need to ask me, then I'm sure there's other people who would be interested in asking the question.
AFAIK I'm still at -1. Nonetheless fwiw I completely don't support lynching a guy who just replaced in and is in Cyberspace (well, not without some real evidence against the guy he replaced, and there's... not a lot. It'd be a straight-up lurker lynch).
If I'm not going to be lynched after all, I think I will take the time to put together that case on Zionite. From the perspective of me who knows I'm not scum, every post he makes today seems to be just throwing out claims of scumitude that don't have anything behind them. Like claiming I didn't defend myself, or referring to unspecified "behavioural tells", or even the way he's going about attacking zindabad. It's all really superficial.
Secondly, I didn't even realize that going into Cyberspace would work like it did. I went into it because Cyberspace is literally the name of the game, and part of the reason that I joined was the intriguing concept of a game with two threads. Now that I've been to Cyberspace, when I read the rules, they make sense. But when I signed up for the game, I didn't really get it.
I really don't believe this. I'm dead suspicious of everyone who went into Cyberspace and then did this "ooh, I'm not really achieving anything in here" dance. Everyone was given the chance to change their decision on jacking in, and the Cyberspace rules were discussed a lot. Unfortunately, everyone who did this (except, in the end, you) ended up out of reach of the day's discussion, which rather sucked.
I hope this is followed up on tomorrow. As it stands it looks like Iso and Seppel are just going to guess their way through the game based on nothing (and people who just blithely followed them while keeping their heads down.... could someone remind me why KCC is suddenly a definite townie besides Iso's sayso?)
After RafK defend Ed me today, if he flips scum when lynched(which I suspect he will), someone should just vig me tonight. Otherwise, tomorrow will just be wasted. My lynch will become effextively inevitable if RafK is scum, and it's better to just get it over with.
This makes me even more suspicious of you, since it's a cute trick- when I don't come up scum, you don't get vigged! But you look town to have offered to take yourself off the table, or that's the plan. It's not a good town move, but it's a cute scum move.
That explanation doesn't match your actions or beliefs at the time. RobRoy had just claimed and you were pushing strongly for a Zionite lynch (one that you are now rather "ho hum" about). And when that didn't work, you disappeared. We were still waiting on Zindabad back then. People were still iffy about RobRoy. Cyan was vehemently pushing for Zionite. The day didn't end until 9 days after you flickered.
You're trying to make something out of nothing. RobRoy could have been lynched at any time, since he was at -2 or something similar. There was no point in taking the risk that people would push the button while I was gone. I get no bonus points for using the ability as close as possible to the day of the actual lynch. It was my belief then that there was every chance that if I didn't check the thread for two days RobRoy could be dead before I came back, so I gave the mod my "announcement" and was done with it.
What on Earth is the point of your argument here? That it was scummy to use the announcement power then? What? This seems like arguing for the sake of arguing.
I find it pretty disappointing that there's such a lack of enthusiasm regarding this game, especially amongst the more experienced players. Bisecting the game presents a number of logistical problems, sure, but it's not as if the CS players couldn't have treated it as a second day one.
It's been a drastically uninteresting game. Interpreting it as scum defeatism is wrong, because while I can't speak for Cyan I can certainly speak for me. I'm not scum, I just find it to be a game where the mechanics are actively hindering communication and is dominated conversationally by people with irritating styles. And then we had the holiday break.
I don't know if I can even pretend to still be interested in this interesting, ambitious, but ultimately failed setup. I feel zero connection or attachment to this game whatsoever, but I definitely would not wish for someone to replace into it, so I'm basically stuck. Fortunately, it's not even night 2 and 2 scum are dead already. My ability also doesn't seem particularly useful, so mislynching me is no real loss.
Feel free to kill me. I would offer some scum reads, but I don't even have any that I have anything more than 60/65% confidence in anyway. Axelrod is probably scum. Nobody seems to care that he tried to bail out Robroy, but that is exactly what happened. Seppel or Iso could be scum. But it could just be their playstyle rubbing me the wrong way, like it always has. For some reason, I figured that they had grown up and stopped treating the game as their personal playground over the last year. How naive of me.
I agree with most of that, other than having enough pride left to not want to be mislynched and potentially contribute to the town blowing what so far is looking like an easy win. And Seppel is almost certainly not scum.
See, I'd be more inclined to believe this if your attitude had changed over the course of the game, but it hasn't at all. You've been distant and non-committal every step of the way.
Huh? I find it more believable because he was like this even before scum died. It's unlike Cyan in any game I've ever played with him, town, scum or neutral. How on Earth does this make you less inclined to believe him?
In other words, "Why did RafK post it then? Why not earlier or later?"
I was holding on to the ability in case it turned out to be actually useful (for all I know people could end up in Cyberspace via an ability during the day, voluntarily or otherwise, and we would then want to send a message to them). I figured throughout that if it was close to the end of the day and it didn't seem like it was going to be useful, I would use the ability just to have it out there it existed.
Claim: Ellenberg. You know my ability, although it seems to have been rendered somewhat obsolete by whatever Azrael and Axelrod are doing since I'm limited to one broadcast a day. Except to the extent that my broadcast goes via the mod and the players get the full text (there is a length limit, I can't send the entire thread or even a particularly long post). Az, if there's something you think Axelrod isn't passing on, I'm happy to use my broadcast on that, there doesn't seem to be anything else worth doing with it right now.
Wow, calling me "uninspired" seems to suddenly be the description to barn. My lack of enthusiasm for the game is pretty obvious, but that's not related to alignment.
Seppel: Try not to be such an ass. That is all. This is a game, not work. Yes, I made a commitment by coming back. It's also Christmas/New Year. Make your resolution to stop being an ass.
It's probably too late to say that, as I read along with the thread, I agreed with Seppel's case on Kraj.
Is there any particular reason you wanted credit for agreeing with it?
It would have been nice to have been here to say that BEFORE Kraj died, wouldn't it? Unfortunately I wasn't here. If nothing else it convinced me that Seppel was being legit about Kraj and not just bussing with a made-up case (although I was already convinced that Seppel was town on day 1). Partly that comment was there because originally I was writing my comment as I caught up on the thread and made a comment about how I agreed with the case on Kraj, then I got to the part where he was already dead so obviously that had to be edited.
Quote from Azrael »
I agree with your points - but the way you present this is isn't terribly convincing.
You're welcome to present them in a better way for me.
Quote from Azrael »
You don't think there's good role-related reasons for that? Seems like a bit of a cheap shot.
I doubt there's good role-related reasons for ALL of them, no. Or at least not good town role-related reasons.
Explain how the bolded isn't simply WIFOM? And how would we even measure your decisiveness?
All personal defences are WIFOM if you want to see it like that. The point is to let people judge for themselves how reasonable the argument is once it's brought to their attention. As for judging decisiveness, again, you can decide that for yourself- if you want to argue that I was decisively taking a position on RobRoy, you can of course try to argue that. My posts are right there in the thread - it's not like you're forced to rely on my self-interested word on this.
To me this reads like you smelt blood and tried to pile on, only you did it in a clumsy way. Let's vote Zionite for starters.
Oh, ok, so Cyouni killed Kraj and Iso is not completely off the hook. For some reason that makes me feel slightly better.
Regarding my "why did so many people go to Cyberspace?" question, the fact that so many people in there are basically saying "this is pointless, why am I here?" kind of supports that there's something in that. They are all there voluntarily so far as we know, so presumably everyone who jacked in jacked in for an actual reason...
In the midst of the heated argument, a small, repetitive noise fazes in and out of earshot. Slater holds up a hand. The conversation peters out, the only sound remaining the heavy breathing, like oil dripping from an old joint.
A hand motion sends one of the suited men towards the source of the noise, one of the net chairs. Shuffling and waiting to be punished for following, you edge closer.
Kraj lies on his chair. His eyes are half-open. He is not breathing.
His chair is making the noise.
No life signs detected in occupant.
Please inform Emergency Services.
Please inform Emergency Services.
Please inform Emergency Services.
Some bruising has begun to flourish around his mouth and nose.
Suffocated.
One of the suited men extracts his chip.
Kraj has been killed. He was Crall, a Government Field Researcher.
The vote count has been reset. With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.
It's probably too late to say that, as I read along with the thread, I agreed with Seppel's case on Kraj.
Cyberspace and Realspace? More like Slackerspace and Deadspace.
Yes, yes, people go on holiday at Christmas and New Year. You act like this is a surprise. Frankly I think Eco is being a bit mean by prodding already.
RafK is one of the few people that make sense as scum. Tell me how he isn't a top scumspect.
Well, for a start the case on me is basically that I wasn't around over Christmas/New Year (which has nothing to do with my alignment or the game) and that I wasn't very convinced on the RobRoy case (not that I ever made a serious effort to derail it, largely because I wasn't completely unconvinced either- I'd suggest to you that if I was scum I would have been a lot more decisive in either bussing or defending because I'd actually know for sure where I stood). I suppose I make as much sense as scum as anyone who didn't demonstrably push for the death of RobRoy or Kraj in a way that's definitely not bussing, but that's still a reasonable number of people.
I understand that we have Iso to thank for the Kraj kill unless I've really misread stuff, so that takes away one of my suspects from yesterday if he was even still there after the RobRoy lynch. I suppose Zionite is still around, but going after him just because I was suspicious of him at the end of day 1 seems a bit silly. I simply need to re-read before I can scum hunt properly. And that will take time, no matter how impatient Seppel is.
I said before I went away that I want to look into what the people who went into cyberspace said on day 1 about people jacking in night 0. I still want to look there. The number of night 0 jack-ins, especially after this was discussed as a scummy thing in the case of RobRoy, still surprises me. Especially when you consider it would have been even higher if not for the bannings.
Haven't had as much (or any) spare time over Christmas/New Year as I thought I would have. It looks like I'm not the only one who has been in that boat, which isn't unexpected at this time of year. Ordinary service to resume in a few more days. Happy New Year y'all.
I am planning over this Christmas period to do a full re-read of day 1 with the knowledge-for-certain of RR and dC's alignment. And with the knowledge of who chose to jack in on night 0.
I'm a bit surprised by how many people did jack in, especially with all the discussion about whether rushing to jack in was scummy or dangerous.
Scum can go a long way by being unequivocally responsible for the death of other scum, although there are drawbacks to that strategy of course.
Hopefully zinda is done with his recapping after his next post. This discussion period has been good, but in the last 48 hours it's started to feel like the delay is making players become disengaged from the game and that's bad in the long run.
@dC: RobRoy's lynch is taking ages to go through because we were/are waiting for zindabad, although the discussion that has arisen since has been really good since people are talking about all different people and reads and not just RobRoy. +1 for everyone who has kept talking and -1 for everyone who has sat tight and waited for the RR lynch to go through.
KCC: I was never technically voting for RR unless I forget something, but he did seem to me to be the day's best lynch option for a while and I have said some things he's done have seemed scummy. Seppel throwing up his arms and declaring I can't see why RobRoy is scummy is of course ridiculous- I know exactly what the arguments for scum RR are, and I've gone through them in my earlier posts. I've also said why, in the end, I'm not convinced- not convinced by the pre-claim case at all (and I'm hardly the only one who's said that was weak) and not convinced enough that the mistakes he made in his claim reveal a scum mindset as opposed to being real mistakes. The only point that really gives me pause remains that he changed his claim after being sorta-counterclaimed, but the trouble there is that DYH backed the new claim as being probably true, and I don't see why he would lie and not just give that claim straight up. The best reason people have given is that he wouldn't want to claim a lethal role... and frankly that's very strange thinking, why would a restricted vig role (if claimed first time) seemed particularly scummy? It's exactly the kind of role I assumed pre-game we'd have in order to deal more quickly with the problem (in the game as originally designed) of scummy players "escaping" to cyberspace.
All this is just repeating myself. Unless more people suddenly change their mind and express willingness to look beyond RR, I don't see a lot of point in continuing to repeat myself on this.
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I assumed I was lynched, with good reason, and no-one prodded me for a week to say otherwise. Then I do come back, and THEN a deadline hits which is basically an instruction from the mod to finish the lynch already. No deadline should be placed with a day at -1 unless it's like a deadlock with 3 people alive or something.
You've already noted once that Axelrod didn't pass on the entire message that you sent, which I was surprised you didn't follow up on. But that's only secondary at this stage. My point is mostly that townies up in Cyberspace shouldn't be lining up their abilities on the basis that the opinions passed on to them via you and Axelrod are 100% completely and correct since I know they are not and while my death reveal (which seems inevitable at this point) should clue people in on that, I couldn't really think of a better use of my ability at this point to remind people that you could be wrong about more than one thing. And also to make sure my suspicions are known to them, because I certainly couldn't rely on you and Axelrod to pass that on in time.
Deadlining with someone at -1 is terrible modding.
Regardless, I will try to complete my case on Zionite by tomorrow evening my time to at least leave a parting gift.
AFAIK I'm still at -1. Nonetheless fwiw I completely don't support lynching a guy who just replaced in and is in Cyberspace (well, not without some real evidence against the guy he replaced, and there's... not a lot. It'd be a straight-up lurker lynch).
If I'm not going to be lynched after all, I think I will take the time to put together that case on Zionite. From the perspective of me who knows I'm not scum, every post he makes today seems to be just throwing out claims of scumitude that don't have anything behind them. Like claiming I didn't defend myself, or referring to unspecified "behavioural tells", or even the way he's going about attacking zindabad. It's all really superficial.
I really don't believe this. I'm dead suspicious of everyone who went into Cyberspace and then did this "ooh, I'm not really achieving anything in here" dance. Everyone was given the chance to change their decision on jacking in, and the Cyberspace rules were discussed a lot. Unfortunately, everyone who did this (except, in the end, you) ended up out of reach of the day's discussion, which rather sucked.
I hope this is followed up on tomorrow. As it stands it looks like Iso and Seppel are just going to guess their way through the game based on nothing (and people who just blithely followed them while keeping their heads down.... could someone remind me why KCC is suddenly a definite townie besides Iso's sayso?)
This makes me even more suspicious of you, since it's a cute trick- when I don't come up scum, you don't get vigged! But you look town to have offered to take yourself off the table, or that's the plan. It's not a good town move, but it's a cute scum move.
Maybe Cyan should be vigged anyway.
No, you mislynched, and if you're not careful the town will give up its lead through sloppy rushed plays like this one was.
You're trying to make something out of nothing. RobRoy could have been lynched at any time, since he was at -2 or something similar. There was no point in taking the risk that people would push the button while I was gone. I get no bonus points for using the ability as close as possible to the day of the actual lynch. It was my belief then that there was every chance that if I didn't check the thread for two days RobRoy could be dead before I came back, so I gave the mod my "announcement" and was done with it.
What on Earth is the point of your argument here? That it was scummy to use the announcement power then? What? This seems like arguing for the sake of arguing.
It's been a drastically uninteresting game. Interpreting it as scum defeatism is wrong, because while I can't speak for Cyan I can certainly speak for me. I'm not scum, I just find it to be a game where the mechanics are actively hindering communication and is dominated conversationally by people with irritating styles. And then we had the holiday break.
I agree with most of that, other than having enough pride left to not want to be mislynched and potentially contribute to the town blowing what so far is looking like an easy win. And Seppel is almost certainly not scum.
Huh? I find it more believable because he was like this even before scum died. It's unlike Cyan in any game I've ever played with him, town, scum or neutral. How on Earth does this make you less inclined to believe him?
Once per day.
Ability to hack the comm system.
I'm pretty sure I did defend myself. There wasn't an awful lot to defend myself against.
I was holding on to the ability in case it turned out to be actually useful (for all I know people could end up in Cyberspace via an ability during the day, voluntarily or otherwise, and we would then want to send a message to them). I figured throughout that if it was close to the end of the day and it didn't seem like it was going to be useful, I would use the ability just to have it out there it existed.
Rolename.
Wow, calling me "uninspired" seems to suddenly be the description to barn. My lack of enthusiasm for the game is pretty obvious, but that's not related to alignment.
It would have been nice to have been here to say that BEFORE Kraj died, wouldn't it? Unfortunately I wasn't here. If nothing else it convinced me that Seppel was being legit about Kraj and not just bussing with a made-up case (although I was already convinced that Seppel was town on day 1). Partly that comment was there because originally I was writing my comment as I caught up on the thread and made a comment about how I agreed with the case on Kraj, then I got to the part where he was already dead so obviously that had to be edited.
You're welcome to present them in a better way for me.
I doubt there's good role-related reasons for ALL of them, no. Or at least not good town role-related reasons.
All personal defences are WIFOM if you want to see it like that. The point is to let people judge for themselves how reasonable the argument is once it's brought to their attention. As for judging decisiveness, again, you can decide that for yourself- if you want to argue that I was decisively taking a position on RobRoy, you can of course try to argue that. My posts are right there in the thread - it's not like you're forced to rely on my self-interested word on this.
To me this reads like you smelt blood and tried to pile on, only you did it in a clumsy way. Let's vote Zionite for starters.
Regarding my "why did so many people go to Cyberspace?" question, the fact that so many people in there are basically saying "this is pointless, why am I here?" kind of supports that there's something in that. They are all there voluntarily so far as we know, so presumably everyone who jacked in jacked in for an actual reason...
It's probably too late to say that, as I read along with the thread, I agreed with Seppel's case on Kraj.
Yes, yes, people go on holiday at Christmas and New Year. You act like this is a surprise. Frankly I think Eco is being a bit mean by prodding already.
Well, for a start the case on me is basically that I wasn't around over Christmas/New Year (which has nothing to do with my alignment or the game) and that I wasn't very convinced on the RobRoy case (not that I ever made a serious effort to derail it, largely because I wasn't completely unconvinced either- I'd suggest to you that if I was scum I would have been a lot more decisive in either bussing or defending because I'd actually know for sure where I stood). I suppose I make as much sense as scum as anyone who didn't demonstrably push for the death of RobRoy or Kraj in a way that's definitely not bussing, but that's still a reasonable number of people.
I understand that we have Iso to thank for the Kraj kill unless I've really misread stuff, so that takes away one of my suspects from yesterday if he was even still there after the RobRoy lynch. I suppose Zionite is still around, but going after him just because I was suspicious of him at the end of day 1 seems a bit silly. I simply need to re-read before I can scum hunt properly. And that will take time, no matter how impatient Seppel is.
I said before I went away that I want to look into what the people who went into cyberspace said on day 1 about people jacking in night 0. I still want to look there. The number of night 0 jack-ins, especially after this was discussed as a scummy thing in the case of RobRoy, still surprises me. Especially when you consider it would have been even higher if not for the bannings.
PS: The Hobbit is pretty bad.
I'm a bit surprised by how many people did jack in, especially with all the discussion about whether rushing to jack in was scummy or dangerous.
Hopefully zinda is done with his recapping after his next post. This discussion period has been good, but in the last 48 hours it's started to feel like the delay is making players become disengaged from the game and that's bad in the long run.
@dC: RobRoy's lynch is taking ages to go through because we were/are waiting for zindabad, although the discussion that has arisen since has been really good since people are talking about all different people and reads and not just RobRoy. +1 for everyone who has kept talking and -1 for everyone who has sat tight and waited for the RR lynch to go through.
KCC: I was never technically voting for RR unless I forget something, but he did seem to me to be the day's best lynch option for a while and I have said some things he's done have seemed scummy. Seppel throwing up his arms and declaring I can't see why RobRoy is scummy is of course ridiculous- I know exactly what the arguments for scum RR are, and I've gone through them in my earlier posts. I've also said why, in the end, I'm not convinced- not convinced by the pre-claim case at all (and I'm hardly the only one who's said that was weak) and not convinced enough that the mistakes he made in his claim reveal a scum mindset as opposed to being real mistakes. The only point that really gives me pause remains that he changed his claim after being sorta-counterclaimed, but the trouble there is that DYH backed the new claim as being probably true, and I don't see why he would lie and not just give that claim straight up. The best reason people have given is that he wouldn't want to claim a lethal role... and frankly that's very strange thinking, why would a restricted vig role (if claimed first time) seemed particularly scummy? It's exactly the kind of role I assumed pre-game we'd have in order to deal more quickly with the problem (in the game as originally designed) of scummy players "escaping" to cyberspace.
All this is just repeating myself. Unless more people suddenly change their mind and express willingness to look beyond RR, I don't see a lot of point in continuing to repeat myself on this.